Would love to attract wildlife but? Veggies? Cats?

[GardenGirl]

Hi, before I ask my questions I would just like to say this is my first post
I did read a bunch of the other posts though and I searched for what I'm about to ask but couldn't find anything

So I was thinking about planting (Florida) native plants to attract birds and butterflies to my garden but I'm also growing vegetables. I've heard (horror) stories about the birds getting all of someone's crops and that they had to go to extremes to get them to stop. So my question is, is it worth it? Will they eat them all? Won't they just eat the native berries on the other plants?

I also have ah...a lot of cats.They all hang out in the front yard though, only two go in the back and (mostly) just when I'm out there. I only have five (sometimes six) and well a 3 week old kitten too, but does he count? One of the cats is inside only, another (the one who comes and goes) I'm trying to convert to inside only (much to her dismay), then another one is mostly inside (mama cat), one comes inside only if we have not feed them outside yet or its rainy etc, and the last one stays outside 24/7 but I have never seen her out back and we've been here for four years. There are also various neighborhood cats who sometimes come over.

So should I not even attempt to attract birds or is there a way I can get my cats to leave them alone? I don't want them to get eaten and to be honest my cats are fairly good hunters, mostly lizards though, a lot of lizards. I see some birds every now and then, really only like three. There is a birds nest in the backyard and one cat is interested in it so I've been squirting her with water, I will see how that goes. Sorry if this seems like a really stupid question "I have cats can I have birds har har har?", but I'm just wondering if anyone else has birds in their yard that the cats don't eat lol.

Also I know that some types of caterpillars eat cabbages, I don't have any cabbages but it stands to reason other kinds eat other fruits or veggies, right? If so, same question with the birds, is it worth it?

Oh and before you all go thinking I'm a crazy cat woman, only one cat is mine and she happens to be the one who disappears, so really I have no cat.

[LazyGirl]

Gardengirl,

Welcome! It sounds like you and I are in the same boat. I have been planting natives to attract butterflies and birds, have a vegetable garden, and have three cats. Really only one of our three cats is active and fast enough to have a birding history. He has only brought 1 bird home in the past year and a half.

I too am concerned about the cats harming the wildlife, as I do see them attempting to stalk birds. In my birding books I read to keep the feeders higher up (mine are at least 5ft off the ground) and to offer the birdbaths on pedestals so birds can see the cats coming. Since my cats are relatively ineffective hunters, it seems that the birds and squirrels can recognize this and they don't seem too bothered by the cats.

I think squirting your cat with water to keep her away from the bird nest is a great idea, and I commend you for your effort. Hopefully you will be able to enjoy the wildlife with your pets.

In regards to the vegetable garden, I only really had tomatoes last year and I think the birds left them alone. This year I'm expanding to have berries, so we'll see how that one goes. I get the feeling that the birds will go after the blueberries... I figure I'm willing to share the blueberries if it means I get to see more birds.

Good luck!

Tania

[The Helpful Gardener]

Belling them helps some; there is also a bib they can wear to prevent them getting good strikes on birds...

If you build it they will come, and they will be sure you built ALL of it for them...that said I have a bird area (other side of the yard from the garden) and feeders (not that far away) and I do get an occasional pecked at tomato, and I have given up on eating my blueberries and bequeathed them to the birds entirely, but it's not that big an issue. The cat thing is bigger; I too have cats; we are at the supervised outings stage to reduce bird damage and that is hard for everybody and Dougal got a goldfinch the other day anyway. I agonize over every murder but cannot bring myself to punish for a million years of breeding... it is a difficult question; I feel that I feed and house birds and bats to the point where some predation can be sustained, especially if I work to keep it minimal... find your comfort zone...

HG

[applestar]

Birds DEFINITELY go after berries. I keep telling the marauding catbirds that they can have all the wild blackberries they want but the blueberries are OURS. But do they listen? They also have a way of getting the berries that you've been waiting for -- just when you think, "Hmm. Those will be ready to pick tomorrow." They swoop in and gobble them up the next dawn!

BIRDNETTING is the way to go. I find 2L soda bottles atop bamboo poles ideal for holding up bird netting. But keep a bagful of cloth pins (spring loaded kind) on hand. Last year, groundHOG kept ripping holes along the bottom sides, and ?something? kept ripping holes in tops and sides. Maybe my birdnetting was too cheap? You get what you pay for? I'm using last year's for trellising vine crops and getting a new (hopefully better) one this year.

[hendi_alex]

I've never had much of a problem with the birds eating my blueberries. The birds, squirrel, my family and friends, all share in the berries, and still at least half end up falling to the ground. We get an occasional pecked tomato and an occasional pecked strawberry as well. We had a couple of catbirds year before last, and they were very aggressive in eathing the blueberries, so more than a couple of those birds and the loss could be extreme. But even in that case it was a simple matter of covering the plants with bird netting.

For the past several years I've been adding plantings, bird houses, and feeders to attract the birds. We have two cats, one of which is very lethal, and extremely persistant. I think that a concentration of cats and birds in the same area are incompatible if you value the birds. Nothing works to keep the cats from the birds. Bells are slightly helpful, but the cats are simply too good at what they do, and they don't mind taking an unfair advantage. They will sit just below a nest and tantalize the bird until it swoops too close one time. When our two cats die off this round, they won't be replaced. If a person has a primarily indoor cat, the harm is propbably minimal, and could be considered just part of a natural balance, that a predetor will get a bird or other prey from time to time. But several cats in one area, is unatural, and places too much pressure on the local wildlife. If a person looked to wildlife as an example, I bet that the cat density never averages over just a few cats per square mile. The huge number of both house pets and feral cats is having a significant effect on native bird populations.

Here is a link to an excellent report from the University of Florida Conservation Clinic. It discusses the impact of free roaming cats on native bird poputions.

https://www.law.ufl.edu/conservation/pdf/feralcat.pdf

[The Helpful Gardener]

Cats have had a [url=https://www.environment.gov.au/biodiversity/invasive/publications/cat/index.html]devastating effect on Australian wildlife[/url]...


HG

[GardenGirl]

Thank you to everyone who answered

LazyGirl I'm glad someone else is like this too My cats also have only really killed a few birds mostly lizards and some mice.

applestar I will look into birdnetting if they do go after them and may you have a better yield this year

Helpful Gardener you were helpful lol and it made sense what you said

hendi_alex I read the report and it was very informative, I understand that it is bad for the wildlife but cannot really do anything about it right now I am trying to convert them to inside cats but I live at home and there are forces working against me (my mother) that don't like inside cats. I doubt I will be able to accomplish this now but rest assured any new cats of mine I will keep inside as it is better for all

[The Helpful Gardener]

or outside rooms of wire mesh accessed by a cat door; there are work arounds...

HG

[hendi_alex]

Our cats live outside as well. One is too old to make a bird kill, but the other is very good at it, still only getting a few birds per year. We are trying to fatten him up so that he is full and lazy. Both cats are spayed and rarely leave the yard any more, unless at night when they are not observed. My feelings are similar to yours, we have the cats and enjoy them, but will not be introducing house cats into our home therefore immediate change is not a viable solution. So I just wait on attrition to solve the problem. We live in the middle of 130 undeveloped acres, so at least the cat density is fairly low here, including our two cats plus an occasional visitor from our half mile away nearest neighbors.

I doubt that cats of responsible cat owners represent a significant source of the problem, especially when compared to all of those free roaming unsterilized cats that many owners have, and all of the feral cats that result. But even a few killings can make a big difference. Several years ago we had a pair of nesting crested flycatchers that came back each year for several years. On the third or fourth nesting year our cat killed both adults. It was at least ten years before I finally saw another crested flycatcher in our yard, just last year. So many generations of that lovely species lost, because of one cat! For sure, is my responsibility, certainly not the cat's.

[cynthia_h]

There was a thread here last year which quickly turned anti-cat, and I appreciate the reasonable tone everyone is taking w/regard to helping the OP in her difficulty.

I've had indoor/outdoor cats most of my life. My two current cats are indoor only due to their own previous circumstances. HOWEVER, my gardening has never included bird-feeding, because I felt it was unethical to lure birds to my home (our lot is only 50' x 100') with my own cats on the loose.

That said, I *do* attract multiple species of bees and butterflies with my lavender, rosemary, and mature vegetable plantings. I let many veggie plants flower and go to seed, not only to collect a few seeds but also to have flower nectar/pollen available during the rainy winter months here in the S.F. Bay Area, when very few plants flower.

I also observe flocks of finches and bushtits swooping through my blackberries occasionally throughout the year. They sit on the vines and eat eat eat quite happily.

The gigantic redwood tree which occupies the whole back yard is home to several species of birds. Unfortunately, ever since the crows moved in, the number of species has dwindled... In the pre-crow years, I counted 11 different species using our redwood as a nesting spot. Now I'm lucky to see 4 (crows + 3 others).

Cats don't like to climb trees to get at the birds. So I'm perfectly happy not to cut down the redwood tree!

And, of course, if there *is* a strong, predatory neighborhood cat, I want him to go after the squirrels...which are on the ground and the low fence much more often than the birds...good kitty...go catch the nasty squirrel...sunflower-seed fattened...yummmm...Good Cat!

Cynthia H.
Sunset Zone 17, USDA Zone 9

[The Helpful Gardener]

I think the important takeaway is not that cats are bad, or cat owners are bad, or even that humans are bad for moving invasive species around the planet helter skelter, it is this. We must remain cognizant that as we enter the Anthropocene Age, as we are the compelling force, both constructive and destructive, on the planet. As such we inherit a responsibility to manage our behaviors and the results thereof, in such a way as to better the planet as a whole. I have always tried to live by the standards set in place by Dr. Aldo Leopold, and they bear stating here...

Land Ethic
The land ethic simply enlarges the boundaries of the community to include soils, waters, plants, and animals, or collectively: the land.
This sounds simple: do we not already sing our love for and obligation to the land of the free and the home of the brave? Yes, but just what and whom do we love? Certainly not the soil, which we are sending helter-skelter downriver. Certainly not the waters, which we assume have no function except to turn turbines, float barges, and carry off sewage. Certainly not the plants, of which we exterminate whole communities without batting an eye. Certainly not the animals, of which we have already extirpated many of the largest and most beautiful species. A land ethic of course cannot prevent the alteration, management, and use of these 'resources,' but it does affirm their right to continued existence, and, at least in spots, their continued existence in a natural state."

He saw this moral stance as the safety valve to prevent us us from completely denuding the planet. He coined the term biota to describe any ecologically congruent grouping, defining the biotic community as all living things, from bacteria to us. In pursuit of the land ethic he offered this...

"

A thing is right when it preserves the stability, integrity and beauty of the biotic community. It is wrong when it tends otherwise.â€

[hendi_alex]

"Anthropocene Age," an interesting term. I think that from the earliest of times we have exaggerated our importance as well as our ability to control nature and make change. If humans fail this phase of the experiment, life goes on. Even if we have all out nuclear war and all mamals would be destroyed.... Life goes on. Our cumulative effects on this planet don't amount to much compared to say an impact with even a small asteroid. But even with a fairly dramatic collision, yes, life goes on!


["A thing is right when it preserves the stability, integrity and beauty of the biotic community. It is wrong when it tends otherwise.â€

[The Helpful Gardener]

People seem to operate under the delusion that Man has some exalted place on the planet and will therefore go on unbroken, forever, but the evidence suggests otherwise...

We have had nearly complete extinctions at least twice, with one being the dinosaurs, a crew who would likely still be here if not for said extinction. There is no reason at all that the lights could not go out tomorrow; Thor's hammer, The Clathrate Gun (we sure are playing with it...) or some nut with a nuke and everyone gets trigger happy, any number of scenarios could do it...

But the slow smothering of ecosystems and the attendant trophic cascades gets my vote as the problem right now, and THAT one we can do something about...

HG

[hendi_alex]

The perceived major problems of the planet, pollution, habitat destruction, accelerated species extinction rate, etc. , are not really problems at all. They are symptoms of a problem. HUMANS ARE THE PROBLEM. We have turned into a massive infestation. The good thing is that natural systems are generally self correcting. We can choose to control our numbers and move to a harmonious, symbiotic relationship with nature, or nature will solve the problem for us. The problem is that nature's solutions are generally handled in very nasty ways such as disease, starvation, poisoned environments, wars fought over scarce resources. With a mostly selfish and uneducated mass of around 8B people, who really believes that we as a species have any capacity to alter the momentum at this point? I think that we have already turned from the peak of prolonged exponential growth, and to me it is pretty clear what follows that, the same thing that happens at the end of any and all bubbles. Whoever, or whatever is left after the collapse of the population bubble will be the ones who make a conscious decision as to how best continue this voyage.

In spite of such bleak expectation, I completely accept your argument that we as individuals have a responsibility to behave as harmoniously with nature as possible, and to pass those values on to others as much as possible. The less we damage the system, the more rapidly it will restore itself after the coming collapse. Will the human population collapse before a widespread ecosystem collapse or vice versa. Obviously no one knows. Either way, nature will heal itself. And for mankind, hopefully those who understand sustainable practices and who understand the concept of hidden costs, will be akin to Moses leading us from the chaos that will follow our pending population collapse. We have now seen the destination that results when the selfish schemers and the naive lead the way.

Self Quote: [Why are we here? To muddle through life doing the best we can, hopefully learning something and growing a bit along the way.]

[The Helpful Gardener]

We are getting a bit deep here; probably not what Garden Girl had envisioned in her OP. Most folks are looking to tackle their individual issues, and Alex and I have run off into the great void of human's role on the planet, population growth, mass extinctions, and the ability of the planet to heal itself in spite of us. Perhaps this seems a little bleak or off topic, but...

Gardeners not so far back were debating whther or not it was o.k. to be using DDT. Despite some evidence that there was a problem, especially pronounced in our apical avian predators, including our national symbol, the bald eagle, many felt that the benefits outweighed the downside. Finally, at the last minute, and due to a groundbreaking book by a little known marine biologist, it was banned...pan ahead 8 years or so...

A Kingswood Estate stationwagon was moving at a good rate down the Boston Post Road in Old Lyme, CT. The child passengers are suddenly startled when the mother, a usually sedate driver, stands on the brakes and as the rubber smoke clears, points out onto the marsh around Great Island, at a lone bird on a nesting wheel, one of many on the marsh. "Look, an osprey!" says Mom. "Why did you stop like that?" asks the oldest son, and the mother replies, "I wanted you to see one, because they may not be here much longer." This troubles the boy for a long time... he gets involved in Ducks Unlimited, through the Boy Scouts...

Cut ahead thirty five years to the boy, now a man, kayaking those same waters for his first time. His boat is in the water for no more than a minute before he comes across a mated pair of osprey on a wheel, Dad has just arrived with fish and from the kayak the man can just make out the two chick's heads as they squall and stretch for food. Of the 26 wheels of Great Island WMA, he counts 24 occupied, 18 of which were mating pairs...

Cut to today when the man types furiously (badly but furiously) to make a belabored point; this is ALL personal to me. Ospreys and eagles (which I had never seen in my life until just a few years back, when one almost pooped on my kayak as I marveled...) are coming into my life on a regular basis, as are birds and butterflies, groundhogs and chipmunks, orchids and dandelions, in a tapestry woven by both Man and Nature. I have examined my life through a lense of Nature for a long time, simply because my mother made it so; she showed me wintergreen and frogs and ospreys and it STUCK. We need to have ALL the conversations, with each other, and our children, and our legislators, not just the easy fluffy ones but the ones that point to a creature or plant and say "I wanted you to see this because it may not be here much longer." We need to ask the hard questions that we know might not have answers we really want to hear, and I thank Garden Girl for just such a question; it takes a certain courage to try and better our closely held behaviors and beliefs. Because it can make a difference, a really big difference. Ask the osprey...

HG

[cynthia_h]

Beautiful story, Scott. Thank you.

I think each of us is beholden to do what we can to assist Mother Nature in her current difficulties.

I do what I can to support pollinators. But to support these insects and birds--yes, hummingbirds visit my garden! finches! bushtits! and of course sparrows--I kill the snails and slugs who would eat the plants which mature into "insect/bird food." The snails are an imported, invasive species, which (I believe) justifies my administration of quick mortality.

I have always had indoor/outdoor cats until a few months ago. I always made sure, however, that the cats were INDOORS in the early morning hours, especially in the spring, when fledglings try their wings. Then, last July and September, I adopted, in quick succession, a post-surgical cat and a shockingly timid cat. They are indoors ONLY cats.

However, all of my cats have been spayed/neutered to avoid adding to the cat overpopulation, and I volunteer at my local humane society to help on that end of things.

I've always gardened organically, although in the beginning it was out of self-defense due to my migraines. Over the next few years, I developed a wider understanding of the importance of organic methods, quite literally from the ground up.

Birdbaths don't take up much space, and for those who don't have roving cats, the birds will appreciate the birdbath. Recirculating fountains can also serve this function if they have a "resting spot" in the top tier.

Native plants, esp. flowering plants, can support an entire food web--below, on, and above the surface.

This is the kind of connection I like to feel when out in the garden.

Cynthia H.
Sunset Zone 17, USDA Zone 9