Veggie Garden Troubles

[505zoom]

Howdy everyone. Looks like you guys have the best gardening forum on the web! Sorry that my first post here is asking for help/advice.

This year is my 9th growing backyard veggies (3rd here at this house), and I always had exceptional luck in the past. Other than getting wiped out twice by harvest season hailstorms, and last year's "invasion of pill-bugs" after the destruction of a cinderblock perimeter wall, my gardens have always been almost TOO easy. I use Fox Farms Big Grow and Big Bloom throughout the season, add fresh compost early spring, and everything always worked great. However this year has finally got me looking more into how this stuff works, which brought me here.

For starters, here are a few pics from exactly one year ago today for comparison...

The little pond (not really relevant but ponding is what started me into gardening) :

[img]https://www.msprotege.com/members/wooz202/pond07.JPG[/img]

Early girl:

[img]https://www.msprotege.com/members/wooz202/tomato07.JPG[/img]

Pepper area:

[img]https://www.msprotege.com/members/wooz202/peppers07.JPG[/img]

The tomatoes gave extreme yields last year. It was by far the most success I have ever seen personally. The plants grew to almost 6 feet, and produced a ridiculous amount of fruit.

I remodeled the garden wall in March, which required a huge amount of new soil. Rather than put all of the new soil around the edge, I flattened the old dirt out first, and added the new soil to the entire garden. Tilled heavily, lots of compost, and left to sit for over a month.

I planted small seedlings during the last week of April, which was about two weeks earlier than usual. We got one late freeze, but not enough to hurt anything. For the main garden, I ended up throwing in 3 tomatoes (early girl) using wallo'waters, and 42 peppers (jalapeno, habenero, serrano, Anaheim, Sandia, and NM 6-4L). No problems for the first couple weeks, was seeing good growth from the seedlings, think everything will be fine.

[img]https://www.msprotege.com/members/wooz202/garden08.JPG[/img]

The growth nearly halts in it's tracks, and it soon becomes apparent that something is very wrong. The tomatoes all got very sick, with shriveled skinny yellow leaves and purple veins, very underdeveloped new growth, with the old growth dying off completely.

[img]https://www.msprotege.com/members/wooz202/gardencurlytop6.JPG[/img]

[img]https://www.msprotege.com/members/wooz202/gardencurlytop3.JPG[/img]

[img]https://www.msprotege.com/members/wooz202/gardencurlytop5.JPG[/img]

I called my local extension and they said that there were many reports of curly top virus this year, which was what I had figured after some research the night before. They told me that it was very uncommon for my entire garden to be infected though, so I am in the end kinda stumped on what is going on with my plants.

[img]https://www.msprotege.com/members/wooz202/gardencurlytop4.JPG[/img]

[img]https://www.msprotege.com/members/wooz202/gardencurlytop2.JPG[/img]

I ended up pulling almost every single plant and replacing them. Any infected ones could in turn infect any new ones I planted, so just about all of them had to go. Some of them are definite curly-toppers, some of them are just stunted, some of them are stunted and yellow... only 6 originals remain un-pulled, and even those I am seriously considering pulling.

All of the old ones are spending the next couple nights under the grow light in the sink, before getting transplanted into large pots for the front sun-room. I figure I will give them all one last chance to make a turnaround.

[img]https://www.msprotege.com/members/wooz202/gardencurlytop1.JPG[/img]


Lastly, to make sure that my fresh seedlings see some good conditions, I bought a simple soil testing kit to see if there were any other problems. Here are the results:

PH- 7
N- low
P- ideal
K- very high

I will start working on the low nitrogen tomorrow, but I am not sure what I can do to lower the potassium levels other than heavy watering. I am also not sure if those levels can be stunting my plants like this.

Any thoughts or advice from any of you experts?

[doccat5]

Were you planting your tomatoes in the same place as the previous years? That does predispose them to picking up viruses and fungi.

However, that doesn't look like virus damage to me. It looks more like a plant that's been over watered? You may also be missing some trace elements and I'd suggest using some epsom salts water on them, and it works for peppers also. The magnesium helps them metabolise the nutrients in the soil much better, that should help them take up more of that wonderful K. That's one thing that is sometimes present in large amounts but the plant can only absorb small amounts due to the lack of those trace elements. Biochem, 101.

1 teaspoon of epsom salts in 1 quart of warm water and mix well. Drench the plants. It also helps them set bloom.

What are you using for fertilizer? That could be part of your problem.

[DARK505]

Glad to see you found the forum rich, ive only posted once before but got some good advice.

I use Fox Farms Big Grow and Big Bloom throughout the season, add fresh compost early spring, and everything always worked great.

I'm using the same stuff and it seems to work very well.

The epsom salt trick sounds intresting, hope that works for you bud.

[505zoom]

Were you planting your tomatoes in the same place as the previous years? That does predispose them to picking up viruses and fungi.

They are not in the exact same places, but pretty close. This year I swapped the tomato area and the pepper area, while also extending the old garden to almost twice it's old size. So in reality, half of the garden didn't have anything there last year.

However, that doesn't look like virus damage to me. It looks more like a plant that's been over watered?

Which one looks over-watered? I would be extremely surprised if that were the case, mainly because we have had zero rain this year, and also because I have been needing to give them a small extra drink in the mid afternoon due to dry-drooping.

You may also be missing some trace elements and I'd suggest using some epsom salts water on them, and it works for peppers also. The magnesium helps them metabolise the nutrients in the soil much better, that should help them take up more of that wonderful K. That's one thing that is sometimes present in large amounts but the plant can only absorb small amounts due to the lack of those trace elements. Biochem, 101.

1 teaspoon of epsom salts in 1 quart of warm water and mix well. Drench the plants. It also helps them set bloom.

Awesome, I have never tried this, but will definitely pick some up at the store tomorrow.

What are you using for fertilizer? That could be part of your problem.

Always used Fox Farms Big Grow (6-4-4) and Big Bloom (0.01-0.3-0.7). I also have a bottle of their Tiger Bloom (2-8-4), but it doesn't get used very much. To boost up the N after the soil tests yesterday, I am going to try some 5-1-1 for a week, and then retest the soil next weekend.

Thanks for your input, any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[bcomplx]

Please read this breaking news from the UK. Do you think that any of the soil amendments you used might possibly been contaminated, perhaps from manure from animals that fed in treated fields?

https://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/06/29/9966/

It may be a possibility that needs to be considered.

Barbara Pleasant

[505zoom]

Please read this breaking news from the UK. Do you think that any of the soil amendments you used might possibly been contaminated, perhaps from manure from animals that fed in treated fields?

https://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/06/29/9966/

It may be a possibility that needs to be considered.

Barbara Pleasant

Very interesting. Can't be the source of my problems though, since I have not used any Dow stuff in my garden, and my fox farms bottle is a few years old now. Also didn't add any manure at all this year. Thanks for lookin out though!

As an update to my garden situation, I have gotten the N levels back to ideal, but am still seeing relatively slow growth (maybe it's just my perception though?). PH is a little higher than the first tests, up to the 7.5-8 range. I got some advice in another thread to try some aluminum sulfate, but want to look into it more before picking anything up.

Here are some new pics from yesterday:

[img]https://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll294/505zoom/Garden/DSC01945.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll294/505zoom/Garden/DSC01944.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll294/505zoom/Garden/DSC01950.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll294/505zoom/Garden/DSC01947.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll294/505zoom/Garden/DSC01946.jpg[/img]

So yeah nothing is really hurting, but the growth seems slow in comparison to past years. Hopefully I can figure out something soon, there isn't a whole lot of vegetative time left for us here.

Oh and the mantids are finally hatching too!

[img]https://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll294/505zoom/Garden/DSC01943.jpg[/img]

[cynthia_h]

This new growth looks nice! Sturdy little plants; not spindly at all, and very lush.

Your pH reading of 7 (if it's really 7.0) is exactly neutral--neither acidic nor alkaline. In the other thread, I think you had mentioned a pH of 8.5? Maybe that's in another area of the yard/garden.

Good luck; I hope that your plants stay healthy and that you get a wonderful harvest!

Cynthia H.
USDA Zone 9, Sunset Zone 17

[505zoom]

This new growth looks nice! Sturdy little plants; not spindly at all, and very lush.

Your pH reading of 7 (if it's really 7.0) is exactly neutral--neither acidic nor alkaline. In the other thread, I think you had mentioned a pH of 8.5? Maybe that's in another area of the yard/garden.

Good luck; I hope that your plants stay healthy and that you get a wonderful harvest!

Cynthia H.
USDA Zone 9, Sunset Zone 17

Thanks for the well wishes! When I did my testing earlier this month, I was getting readings of 7.0-7.5. The new readings were 7.5-8.0, which I have read isn't terrible for tomatoes and peppers, but it can still lock up some of the N. Not sure how accurate that is, but it makes sense in my brain so it must be true, haha.

[Jess]

I would go back to when the problems started to try and figure out what happened.
You said you added compost and soil...where did it come from? What exactly did you add? From that point on seems to be when your problems started. What made the pottassium levels shoot up and the nitrogen decrease? What compost did you use? Was it composted manure or compost you had made yourself? Bought in?
I think once you have answered these questions it will be easier to decide on the actions to take to redress the nutrient balance. It seems such a shame that you have gone from lush, productive plants to weak, spindly diseased ones. It must be a problem with the soil/compost additions.

[505zoom]

I would go back to when the problems started to try and figure out what happened.
You said you added compost and soil...where did it come from? What exactly did you add? From that point on seems to be when your problems started. What made the pottassium levels shoot up and the nitrogen decrease? What compost did you use? Was it composted manure or compost you had made yourself? Bought in?
I think once you have answered these questions it will be easier to decide on the actions to take to redress the nutrient balance. It seems such a shame that you have gone from lush, productive plants to weak, spindly diseased ones. It must be a problem with the soil/compost additions.

I added the same stuff I do every year, composted mulch, "garden soil", and top soil from the hardware store. I am assuming that the extreme growth last year zapped all my N, and the large doses of Big Bloom caused the high K levels. I admit that I am not the best gardener and I hadn't EVER tested my soil before I started having problems this year. Now I know the importance of that and I will do so every year long before planting.

The nutrient levels seem to be all good now, it's just the PH that I need to get back in check. Sure seems easy with some aluminum sulfate, but I can not find any definitive info that says it won't harm my peppers or tomatoes at this stage in their growth. If anyone can confirm that or knows of anything else I can use to lower PH without hurting the existing plants, I am all ears.

Oh and on a side note, I had taken all of the diseased plants and put them in pots for the front yard, and only 2 of them have made any sort of recovery. The soil in their pots is perfect, so I am about 99% sure that my original problems this year were in fact an outbreak of the curly top virus. From what I have heard, it was really bad here in new mexico this year... we apparently had a large migration of the leafhopper this year.

[505zoom]

Cliffs since I tend to be long winded sometimes:

-Last year everything did great
-Planted small seedlings this year
-One month in, huge outbreak of curly top virus
-Seedlings all get replaced
-Soil tested (June 10th), N is low, K is high, PH is low 7's
-Started adding large amounts of some organic fish goop (5-1-1), and Grow Big (12-7-7)
-Plants are healthy, but growing slow
-Retested soil (June 30th), N is ideal, K is still high, PH is low 8's

I plan to use sulfur powder and vinegar to attack the high PH, the aluminum sulfate is apparently not recommended on edibles. Still trying to research using the vinegar properly though.

[Jess]

Such a shame about the curly top. I think I would have cried if I had lost that many plants.
At least it is good to know it was not something you did that caused it or a bad compost batch. I have no idea what 'Big Bloom' is btw, we don't have it here.

So, high ph...I have used vinegar as an organic method of lowering ph but only on ornamentals and short term. No experience on fruit/veges.
I add a cup of vinegar to a gallon of tap water to increase soil acidity.

I did find this article on using sulphur. Might be helpful.
https://www.savvygardener.com/Features/soil_ph.html

and this extract from someone dealing with high ph.
[Especially good are pine needles, tree bark and pine wood saw dust. You may have to balance this with a nitrogen rich material like compost.]

Hope something there is of some help.

[505zoom]

Ok cool, I had heard one cup in a gallon somewhere else, so I think I will start there as far as dosage goes. I am even more confused about the aluminum sulfate now though. The link you posted states very clearly that it is fine to use on fruit, so I can't see how it would be any different on veggies.

The idea of getting lasting results from the alum sulfate sure is mighty inviting. I definitely don't want to constantly replenish the vinegar to keep the PH down.

Can anyone confirm definitively whether or not it is ok to use aluminum sulfate on vegetable plants?