Runt Tomatoes....AGAIN.

[TomatoNut95]

Every year. Every STINKING year I go through this. My first tomato plants are producing. But the first fruits just grew to a certain small size and are refusing to grow from there. Plant is still producing, but new fruits are itty bitty and aren't growing either.

In the pic is my Silvery Fir Tree but Bradley is doing the same way. SFT, is a new variety for me, but I know the fruits get bigger than that.

Do you think this is being caused by poor weather? Too much rain? Too humid? HELP ME!!

[imafan26]

Tomatoes are heavy feeders. If you are trying to grow them organically, you need to step up fertilizing at the right time. I think you should have your soil tested if it is possible and get individualized advice for the kind and amount of fertilizer you need. Fruiting is dependent on phosphorus and potassium being available when the plants need it. Plants will always need some nitrogen, but nitrogen needs to be given in installments and in the right quantity. Once you figure out what and when to fertilize, the plants will produce better.

Growth of any plant will be limited by the critical element needed to sustain growth. In organic culture, that element is usually nitrogen. Nitrogen is very volatile and is needed in various amounts at different stages of growth. Too much before planting and you may not even get germination. You need a lot of nitrogen to support early growth. Vegetables, especially annuals, don't recover well from early set backs. When plants approach maturity and are ready to flower, nitrogen needs to take a back seat to phosphorus and potassium, but is still required in smaller amounts throughout the plants' life cycle.

Most organic nitrogen is available in small quantities and most of it is not available until it is converted over a period of up to two years. Faster organic nitrogen sources would be blood meal and fish emulsion.

If you are growing tomatoes in the same place every year and do not change how you prepare the soil or rotate crops to balance nutrients, you are not likely to see better results. Even a winter cover crop will help.

I grow most of my tomatoes in containers because they would take up too much of my garden space. My main garden is intensively planted because it is only 8ft x 16 ft oval. It has been tested and the soil is super rich in nutrients so I only need very little nitrogen. I actually have to reduce nitrogen and boost potassium to get my root crops to produce roots instead of greens.

I grow tomatoes and some of the larger plants (cucumber, squash, melons), in pots. Usually, I replace the potting soil with new every time. In the last couple of years I have tried to reuse soil and the results were disappointing. Small, sickly, and runt plants that did not produce well or at all. I don't test reused potting soil but I kept experimenting and found that when I reused the soil, I had to put in at least 1/2 new soil, sift all of the old roots out, and start with a hefty 1 cup of starter fertilizer. Before that, I had used less fertilizer since I did not know how much residual was in the pots. Now, I know that the amount of fertilizer I started with was actually only enough for one crop, so I have to give it a full dose of fertilizer just like using all new potting mix.

If you keep doing the same thing in the same place, you won't get better results unless you change what you are doing. It is not the plants fault, it isn't the soil's fault, you have to make adjustments to your culture so the soil and plants get what they need.

I practice a combination of organic and non-organic techniques. I add organic matter every time I plant. I do trench composting, tilling in healthy crop residues, and if I have it I will use vermi cast as well. I have my soil tested every three years. Since, I grow about the same kinds of things every year, all I have to do is make adjustments to balance the soil and the soil test will tell me what adjustments I need to make. My long growing season allows me to rotate to different crops at different times of the year. I follow heavy feeder corn with scavenger Asian greens in the fall. Planting only one kind of plant in the same spot eventually will lead to uneven use of nutrients, more pest issues, and unbalancing the soil. I choose to use synthetic fertilizers because it is really all I need and my soil test directs how much I need to use without over fertilizing and I have a healthy living soil that is teeming with life.

Where tomatoes are concerned, variety may matter regionally. I have tried to grow some of Applestar's favorites. They have not all worked out. It turns out some tomatoes are really designed for short season colder regions. I need a lot of disease resistance or the plants still won't do well. I do have better luck with tomato cultivars that do better in similar climates like Texas, Louisiana, and Florida. There were surprises. Brandywine did require extra weekly anti fungal treatments and the pot had to be 18 inches off the ground but it stood up to the heat pretty well. I did not experience pollen clumping. Early Girl was a good producer although it did quit producing in temps over 90, but it came back again when the weather was milder. Charger that I am growing now, is very disease resistant to mildews and early blight, and it is only one of three tomatoes I can grow now because of TYLCV. It is not heat tolerant and will experience June drop.

Silvery fir tree does fine in heat and humidity. I don't like tart tomatoes and like many heirlooms, it is not a great producer. Your plant looks small. You need to fertilize more. I over fertilize, and I get huge plants, but they are prolific as well. My leaves are 2-3 times the size of yours.

[TomatoNut95]

Bradley, and SFT are in pots because I thought they were shorter, determinate types. I thought the max height for SFT was like 2ft.

The soil in the pots consists of sand from down the road, and a bit of bagged Humus and Manure and I think some MG potting soil.

I admit I do need to fertilize. I've just either been in too downhearted of a mood to do anything or too busy. I have of a box of MG tomato fertilize, I'll use that.

I have a bag of Espoma TomatoTone food but I can't remember if I put it in these older potted tomatoes, I don't think I did. But I've used it for my in-ground tomatoes so far.

I've got several tomato transplants I have yet to plant, I'm just waiting until after all these stupid storms are gone for awhile. I plan to put most in pots and the rest in-ground.

I have no choice but to put stuff in the same place every year since all I have are pots or raised garden. My natural dirt is red clay. Trash. Garbage. Concrete. Useless.

[applestar]

How big pots? Most regular varieties that fruit larger than cherry size are almost directly affected by pot size (constricted rootspace?) and available consistent moisture/fertilizer. Even in hydroponic systems, there is a difference among styles, and I have read that media-based systems produce larger fruits and/or productive plants vs. media-less fluid only systems (possibly unlimited root space but something else prevents optimum results)

[TomatoNut95]

I don't know the exact size of the pots, I'll get more pics after the storms over.

I put these two in pots 'cause I believed then to be determinate types. Oh I know indeterminate types don't do good in pots, especially 5-gallon buckets or pots. When I tried putting indeterminate types in 5-gallon stuff before the results were poor produce and spindly, sickly plants.

I do plan on putting most of my tomatoes in pots again this year but I'm choosing HUGE pots for the indeterminate types and putting the Roma's in 5-gallons.

Sky's black out there and already hearing that a tornado was sighted somewhere nearby. As soon as the storm blows over I'll get more pics for you guys to look at. If I'm still here.

[digitS']

Dang, I'm glad that tornadoes are nearly an unknown, here. Duck and Cover, TomatoNut95!

I am fairly new to growing container tomatoes through the season. At some point, I decided that having them all in a distant garden isn't always the best, despite having plenty of room there. Why not have a few plants at the foot of the backsteps?

At first, I used 5 gallon pots with a compost/garden soil, 50:50. They certainly didn't measure up to their size and performance in open ground but I had some convenient, ripe fruit. Then, I was given some 8 gallon pots. The plants did noticeably better.

The last few years, I have decided not to use any garden soil in the pots and just go with 100% homemade compost. That made for another improvement.

It would be difficult to compare them with garden tomato plants. Certainly, if I put 8 gallons of compost around each plant out there, I would expect larger plants, at least. My backyard is a good deal more protected from wind and that is something of a problem with all garden plants. The season is longer because of less exposure so the backyard plants give me a couple of weeks more fruit production and the fruit tends to be in better shape.

I have had a single in-the-ground, backyard tomato plant. It was a Coyote volunteer and not quite in my backyard beds and not quite in the way. Since I have so much trouble saving viable seed from that variety and they do just fine as volunteers, I left it on its own. This doesn't leave me with a good scientific comparison. Honestly, I think that my 8 gallon containers are almost a minimum for standard, indeterminate tomatoes in this climate.

(Off topic: It occurred to me recently that I may be harvesting the Coyote tomatoes when I'm happy with their ripeness but a little too early for proper seed maturity. The little critters always do just fine as volunteers in the garden, if the tractor guy doesn't bury the seed too deeply. My saved seed germinates late and poorly. I find their independent nature part of their charm but I'm determined to do a better job saving Coyote seed .)

Steve

[Vanisle_BC]

That's an interesting comment, Steve, about possibly harvesting seed too early. Last year my wife and I had a series of health issues and gardening got a lot less attention than usual. Now I'm finding that my tomato seed from last year is very poor compared with some I've purchased, and even compared with my own seed from 4 years earlier. Maybe you've put your finger on the reason. We were so preoccupied with other things I don't even remember saving the seed.

[Gary350]

I would not grow tomatoes in pots smaller than 5 gallon buckets roots need lots of room to grow 7 ft tall plants.

Tomatoes need lots of potassium fertilizer & not much nitrogen. Best fertilizer is 5-5-60. Potassium makes lots of blossoms & lots of very large ripe tomatoes.

Too much nitrogen makes very large plants then you get smaller tomato crop and smaller size tomatoes.

I use wood ash for tomato plant fertilizer it has calcium for BER & Potassium.

Some plants are sensitive to uneven soil moisture and do not do well in pots especially small pots.

Tomatoes do not like hot weather above 85 or cold weather below 45. My tomato plants do much better to be planted so they get full sun all morning coolest time of the day then full shade from 12 noon until dark. Plant tomatoes on east side of a shade tree or east side of house or put up shade tarps when it gets too hot.

If your TX weather is anything like Phoenix AZ tomatoes will do much better to plant them Nov 1st. plants love 70 degrees all winter.

[TomatoNut95]

Okay, the pot the SFT is in says 2-gallon. Bradley's pot is a little bigger, maybe 3 gallon? The only reason I put these in pots was because I believed them to be shorter determinate types and would do find in pots. I know very well that indeterminate types DO NOT do good in 5-gallon size. Trust me.

I also know very well not to give too much nitrogen or I'd get leafy plants and not enough produce.

But now my SFT has BER. I have a feeling this is not going to be a good gardening year. I plucked off the infected fruit, but there is nothing I have I can give it for calcium except egg shells.

[applestar]

If all you have are eggshells, I suppose best use would be to boil the shells to sterilize then strain out the shells and dry in the sun, then grind into powder. Reserve the water used to boil the shells, cool and use to water the plants with. There should be other sources around the house or with a little extra effort if you are not willing to buy lime KR Dolomitic lime.

In any case, after a certain amount of calcium made available to the plants at initial panting and while the blossoms are setting fruits, key is to provide even moisture.

It’s possible to coax better performance out of smaller than ideal containers for tomatoes if you use some kind of automatic irrigation and soluble fertilizer. However, I wouldn’t expect great performance from less than 5 gallon for dwarfs 4-5 ft. Tall max. Bradley seems to be described as 4-7 ft variety.

Only varieties that will do well in 2 gallon would be micro dwarfs (super micro’s can manage in 1 gallon). There are some taller micros, patio and hanging basket varieties that might manage in 2 gallon. 3 gallons would support the patio and hanging basket varieties, and shortest of the dwarfs and cocktail sized determinates, but probably not the full sliver sizes.

I find 2-3 gallon useful for smaller pepper plants.

I usually only grow dwarfs in containers. Some so called dwarfs grow to 5-6 ft and they are not happy in containers. I have only been successful growing tomatoes in SIP (sub-irrigated planter) containers, or containers that are directly placed on the ground so that the roots are allowed to escape and find their way into the ground.

[PaulF]

For what it is worth this is my experience: tomato size is dependent on several factors, the variety, the soil and it's health, the size of container, and watering practices.

I grew the same varieties in-ground and in containers for several years. The containers were between 5 and 7 gallon sized pots. No matter the variety, in-ground production ALWAYS at least doubled in both size and numbers of fruit. The only varieties not following this were cherry tomatoes. Varieties destined to be 7 feet or more in the garden got to maybe 4 in a pot. Dwarfs in the garden were 3 to 4 feet and bushy were half that and less volume in the containers. Smaller plants and fruits are the nature of the container beast.

As to BER in container grown plants, the soilless mix medium I used probably needed more of the trace minerals than were supplied. As with any container and with any plant to avoid BER there must be a consistent water supply. This also must have nutrients replaced at regular intervals since after a week or so of watering, the nutrients are flushed out. I always used the powdered fertilizer soluble in water every ten days or so. My garden soil has plenty of Calcium so extra calcium there is a waste of effort, but in the containers, calcium was most likely limited in the first place and extra was very likely needed.

[TomatoNut95]

Unless I keep my potted tomatoes under an umbrella, there's nothing I can do to control the excess rain I've been getting. More and more rain in the future.

[applestar]

Somebody here was actually doing that. A member from Pacific Northwest ai think? You could too —need to secure against winds probably.

Or build a rain shelter over them. That Japanese blogger/you tuber I’m following calls one of his screened sides/greenhouse film roof steel pipe structure a “Rain Shelter” and plants his tomatoes and melons under it.

[TomatoNut95]

Argh, people are making me mad, NO Rosemary plants, NO onion sets, and bags of topsoil and other dirt are disappearing.

[Gary350]

Eggs shells along have never worked for me to prevent BER in tomatoes. One year I saved egg shells for 7 months crumbled them in small pieces then put them all in the soil under 1 tomato plant still tomatos had BER.

Buy pellet lime it works BEST use 1/2 cup per plant in soil then side dress plants every 3 weeks all summer.

White lime is too strong mix 2 quarts with 5 gallons of water in open top bucket wait 1 week before you use it.

Cement works for calcium, mix 2 quarts with 5 gallons of water in open top bucket wait 1 week before you use it.

Drywall is sheet rock, soak until soft in 5 gallons of water pour on tomatoes this works good BUT it makes my tomatoes taste like they are full of very fine gritty sand.

Baking Soda worked good for BER 1 year but did not work the next year.

Burn any type wood mix with water in open top bucket so lye neutralizes wait 1 week before using it on plants.

Tomatoes, peppers, squash, melons, cucumbers all get BER.

Small tomatoes are from not having enough of the correct fertilizer. Too much nitrogen you get large plants that produce few tomatoes. High potassium is working best for me. Organic fertilizer from the store with very low # like 1-4-4 fertilizer you need a whole 5 lb bag of that type fertilizer for each tomato plant for all summer. My tomato plants need more and more fertilizer all summer they are heaver feeders.

[TomatoNut95]

I will look for some lime, if I can find any available for pick-up purchase.

What are your thoughts on bone meal? I've been using it on my onions(FINALLY got some yellow onion sets) and my squash. Bone meal reads 6-8-0 which says it's supposed to provide calcium. Also I have Espoma TomatoTone which reads 3-4-6. I've mixed little of both bone meal and TT into soil prior to planting the squash. I plan to do so again for the Roma transplants.

BER is not usually a problem for me. I've only encountered it twice in my backyard as far as I can remember. Once last year with my potted mystery tomato and now this year on my SFT tomato. I've never come across it on peppers yet I don't think. Sunscald, yes; but not BER.

And yes, I've COMPLETELY learned my lesson on giving too much nitrogen to vegetables. Been there, figured it out.

[Gary350]

If bone meal is 6-8-0 you can mix it 50/50 with a bag of Muriate of Potash 0-0-60. Bone meal plus Muriate of Potash NPK = 6-8-60

It is best to buy from a farm supply store like Farmers Co-op or TSC = Tractor Supply Company they have good variety to choose from and prices are less. 20 lb bag of pellet lime is $10 it will last you many years and you can use it on all plants that get BER. Buy fertilizer NPK = 5-10-20 or 5-10-30. I remember seeing 5-5-30 once that will be good tomato fertilizer it is low nitrogen and high potassium.

You can mix several fertilizers together to make NPK value that you need.

Reason I like farm supply prices are 75% cheaper and there is more variety. 5 lbs of Bone Meal is $16.99. 50 lbs bag or 5-5-30 is $15. If you mix a bag of bone meal with a bag of Muriate of Potash it will cost $35.

[TomatoNut95]

Thanks a million I'll look for those items and see if they're available for pick-up purchase. I REFUSE to go inside a store, I'm too afraid 'cause people are dumb and won't wear masks or gloves. I truly miss Tractor Supply. BAD!!! That's where I buy most of my gardening stuff. I had trouble finding my Bloom Booster, people are grabbing up gardening supplies.

[PaulF]

I hate to keep harping on this, BUT, it does no good just to dump stuff on the garden without a soil test. Without a test there is no way to tell what will help and what may do more harm. A cheap test from a real lab can give what you need and how much you already have.

In my garden there is plenty of P and K so no extra is necessary. Almost all soils have pretty of Calcium, it is the ability of the tomato plant to utilize what is already there. BER is almost always caused by factors not from soil composition. So much has been written on the real reasons for BER I am amazed folks still insist on trying to increase soil content with eggshells and tums and other methods.

Many soils need lime but many do not. If I added lime without a soil test my soil pH would go from its natural 8.4 up to the 9.0 range and nothing would grow. My soil test says I need to add sulphur and nothing else.

[imafan26]

I agree with Paul. If you are having the same problems year after year, then a soil test is the cheapest way to get you back on track. You can add too much of things and cause more issues.

BER is a relative calcium deficiency. The main cause is uneven watering. It is a problem with the plants transport system and even if the soil has sufficient calcium, the roots are not able to take it up and transport it to the leaves. As a result the plant does what it needs to do to survive. The plant will take calcium from the fruit to support the new leaves. To solve the uneven watering issue. 1. Water more times a day when it is hot to keep the plants from wilting at mid day. 2. In hot climates, use overhead shade or change the location of the plants so they get some shelter from the afternoon sun. 3. Make sure your pots are big enough. As tomatoes mature, their roots take up more of the pot space and require more water. 18 gallon pots don't dry as fast as 5 gallon pots. It does not matter if the tomato is a determinate or indeterminate, they both have large root systems. The tomato roots from my 18 gallon pots are still going into the ground below the pots.
4. You can use SIP containers. The reservoir will help to maintain even moisture.

BER seems to be partially a varietal issue as well. I don't really see BER on heat tolerant tomatoes. I do use a complete fertilizer with micros in all of my pots (Actually I usually use Vigoro 6-4-6 it is a citrus food with slow nitrogen. I works for all of the plants I grow and I have a lot of citrus trees, roses, eggplant, and peppers in pots which all like an acidic soil and micros.) I also use osmocote when I make my own potting soil. They are supplemented with 1 tablespoon of additional fertilizer when they first set flowers, at first fruit, and monthly for the rest of their lives. I do not add any more calcium to any of my pots that what is already in the fertilizers. Eggshells will take years to breakdown and calcium is not a very mobile element. I did get BER in 2016 on a non-heat tolerant variety, but it was also the warmest year since 2001.

On another note. Tomatoes are heavy feeders. Organic fertilizers are slow. If you want to do organic, then you will need to supplement your tomatoes with fast organic nitrogen like fish emulsion and manure or compost tea weekly. I know that some places do say that 3-5 gallon containers are enough for a determinate tomato. But unless you have a mini tomato like Red Robbin, or a true dwarf like New Big Dwarf, determinate tomatoes can still be 4-5 feet tall. At least mine are. They still have big root systems, and I still put them in 18 gallon pots.

A caveat here. I still overfeed my plants, even though I am feeding them much less than I used to. I get huge plants when I take care of them and I get good yields. I have been told though that while I am getting great yields, the plants don't need to be so big. I cage tomatoes so they are not pruned, they just go over the top and keep growing until they hit the ground, and they still may not stop there. I am also watering daily and that may be why my tomatoes do not have concentrated flavor even though I have a well rated variety. Currently, the red currant tomato I have is over 10 ft and it has gone over the trellis and is actually on the ground now. The wild red currant that was growing in my rose pot never really branched much and it stayed fairly small around 6 ft and both of these are prolific producers of tiny red tomatoes. I can attest that they are very sweet, I got a few, but the birds are getting most of them. The tomatoes are only 1/4 inch in diameter and most of them are still green, so they are hard to see in a photo. This was planted in January 2020. It is resistant to mildew, fusarium, verticillium, nematodes, and TYLCV. It is also heat tolerant. It has some senescent leaves, but as long as it is healthy it can live for a long time. The longest lived tomato lasted 10 months. I am using 7 ft CRW for a trellis. Anything lighter would not be able to carry the weight.

The secret of my success is really good soil, good fertilizer management, picking the right varieties for my climate, and checking the plants daily and keeping them healthy as long as possible. When I encountered problems with the reused potting soil, it took awhile to figure out how to change the soil management and increase the fertilizer to get it to work better. Another caveat, I do not reuse soil if a plant had virus or fungal disease. That soil ends up spread out on the remaining grass and the pots get bleached between plantings.

[TomatoNut95]

Yes, I know tomatoes are heavy feeders. Like I said, BER is not a usual problem for me. I only saw it twice in two years on potted tomatoes: my Mystery variety and this year on my SFT.

[Gary350]

I agree hot weather and no rain can cause plants to get BER even if soil has plenty of calcium. When we have a month of no rain and 98 to 100 degree weather my TN tomatoes sometimes get BER all I have to do is water my plants and BER is gone in 2 days. I do dry gardening I never water anything.

When I lived in AZ college professor I knew that use to teach class how to grow plants said, AZ soil is basically ground up powdered rock it has almost no food value for plants soil is 8ph & our water is 8ph. I wonder if your TX soil is anything like AZ soil?

All my AZ garden plants had BER, squash, melons, peppers, tomatoes. Soil was 8ph I added lime BER was gone. Irrigation was 12 minutes every night after dark BER returned every 2 weeks if I did not add more lime.

How do your TX temperatures compare to AZ do you have 100 degree weather yet. It will be 102 in Phoenix today. My AZ tomatoes died in May from too much heat & 110 degrees by end of May. My best AZ tomato garden was planted Nov 1st.

Everyone in AZ neighborhood told me to water plants & yard 2 hours every morning or everything will be dead. I set irrigation timer to water, yard, bushes, trees & garden 12 minutes every night at 9 pm coolest part of the day. Plants take in water after dark when temperatures are cooler and do all their growing after dark. It was funny several neighbors asked, what in the world are you doing to your yard it is the best looking yard in the whole neighborhood we never see your irrigation system on? Neighbors refused to believe I was watering 12 minutes after dark & no fertilizer. I told them, I will never put fertilizer on the yard I hate to mow grass.

[TomatoNut95]

My natural soil is garbage. Solid rock-hard to sticky red clay. Anything I plant has to go in pots or my raised beds which contain various bagged soils. This year I've expanded with more raised beds and brought in free sand from down the road. Area around here is spotty. Soft sandy topsoil can be over in one area, and concrete clay in another. Rot dirt.

As for weather it is 100% unpredictable. It can be cool one day and hot the next. Windy one day and storming the next. Normally I get too much rain from December to April and start hitting the dry season by June. As for temperatures it hasn't reached 90 yet, but has been humid, 'causing blossom drop on my stuff.

Since I'm working with sand, stuff will need watering a whole lot more, I know. But is it my fault that my natural dirt is rubbish and I have to bring in dirt from elsewhere?

[applestar]

Ha the blunt answer to that question is — You get what you got unless you are moving to a location of your choice (then it might be your fault if you don’t do your homework) — so it’s only your fault if you don’t bother to try to learn what can be done to improve the soil to make it better ... and make that happen.

You are obviously trying to learn and trying different things, and the reward and sense of accomplishment when you get it right the way you envisioned it will be all your own.

[TomatoNut95]

Right. I do wish I could move, but can't afford it. I've got some distant family members that have wonderful sandy soil and every time I've been there I get so envious. They don't have to build raised beds or stick anything in pots(unless it's flowers) or bring dirt in from elsewhere. They just stick what they want to grow right in the ground.

Oh well. I am grateful I get to grow anything at all. I'd be truly depressed without my gardening. Especially my tomatoes. Btw, here's my Splash of Cream!