training a plant?

[matt6977]

Ok so a little background. I used to grow marijuana plants for patients (legally in my state so please no judgment), but got out of the business because of too many grey areas in the law, and I would not do well in prison lol. however I was very good at what I was doing. I knew/ know a lot about training the plant and am wondering how closely the methods are to training a tomato plant.

One tactic that I used was removing the top of the plant so the hormones would be focused on the lower branches and thoughs would shoot up, creating more main branches. can you do this with tomatoes to create more main branches? I want to utilize the growing tent and lights I have to start indeterminate tomatoes months earlier than most in order to get more tomatoes this summer but need to know how to contain the size and make them bushy. would starting them this early be worth it?

I love gardening and am trying to replacing what I used to grow with something more wholesome and something I can plant outside suggestions and tips are welcome so please feel free to reply!

[ID jit]

Depending on what you want as an end result, you may want to look into pruning your plants to deliver 2 - 4 (maybe 6) fruit sets. You will get very nice tomatoes but you wont get many of them. To off set this, stagger your start times by a week or two. Start 2 plants and a week or two later start a couple more... then keep them pruned to limited fruit sets. This way you will always have fruit coming ripe.

Remember to re-fertilize after you harvest the fruit and again, keep the plants pruned and seriously consider what you will want for a production rate. After a bunch on weeks, another 6 or 8 really nice tomatoes this week is just another gift to someone you haven't found yet.

The method can take up a lot of space if you do 4 plants once a week and plan on the first plants bearing ripe fruit again just after the last plants produced their first fruit.

If you are sure to manicuring plants it won't seem like a lot of work.

[imafan26]

You can only top prune indeterminate tomatoes. Pruning determinate tomatoes only prunes off fruiting branches. Once determinates flower on the terminal bud, they are done. Determinates are usually dwarf varieties and usually only the suckers below the first fruit cluster should be removed. They may be anywhere from 2-5 ft tall. They usually have short internodes. Determinates usually set most of their fruit all at one time. If you are growing tomatoes indoors the entire time these will be more manageable

Indeterminate tomatoes get to be 6-8 ft tall and produce more side branches. They set fruit a little at a time for a longer time. A properly staked, caged or string trained tomato is easier to manage than a sprawl. Line training tomatoes is time consuming but allows you to have more tomatoes closer together with fewer side branches you will get larger fruit. If you are growing in a controlled environment like a greenhouse, this maximizes yield since you will have tomatoes all along the stems and fewer leaves getting in the way. Out in the sun, you can't take off as many leaves since you need some leaf cover to keep the fruit from being sun scalded. Training up keeps the fruit off the ground so they don't get as much dirt or rot from sitting on the ground and hopefully fewer pests eating them. However, if you train up you will probably still have to provide a structure for bird netting because birds, rodents, and snails love tomatoes. If you can get a high hoop house it might work. I don't need to grow tomatoes indoors, but I do have to fight off birds all the time.

You have to start your tomatoes probably 6 weeks before setting them out. If you wait too long, they will stunt.

[applestar]

I think for full sized indeterminates -- typically 6-8 ft tall as imafan mentioned -- its easier to handle the indoor grown tender plants only until they are just starting to bloom. They are much trickier to transplant after that. For earlier fruiting, what you want to do is time their growth so they start to bear flower trusses just as the outdoor growing temperatures settle down to mid-50's and up when the blossoms will set fruit.

I will say though that I would start hardening off my seedlings much earlier than that -- protecting them and even hauling them back inside on overly cold nights.

NOW, some people say this is the way to go because the more mature seedlings/plants are ready to fruit and are sturdier, others say that younger seedlings recover much better from transplanting without any set back.

Another way to grow earlier fruiting plants is to warm up the growing bed and plant them under protection like poly tunnels for big operation or individually in wall-o-water type, or crw tomsto cage wrapped/encased with poly tube (they sell red ones by the foot that you cut to length and I know someone who swears by them -- I imagine they don't have to be red though there is supposed to be some evidence of benefit)

[rainbowgardener]

What applestar said, especially about hardening them off sooner and focusing on getting them outdoors earlier with protection. When I lived in zone 6, I used to put my tomatoes in the ground just past last frost date. The ground temp and the night time temps would be colder than recommended for them. They wouldn't be growing very fast, but they would be getting adapted and putting down roots, so they were all ready to take off when warmer temps came. I usually had ripe tomatoes before anyone else.

I usually planted tomato seed indoors around Valentines day in order to have good sized tomato transplants to put out about Tax Day. One year I decided if early is good maybe earlier is better and started my tomato seeds a month earlier. In my set up, it was a disaster. The tomatoes outgrew the area I had under lights. I tried putting them next to a window with a lamp shining on them. That wasn't good enough and they instantly grew them selves into gigantic tall and skinny/ leggy. Then when I tried to move them outdoors, those very tall thin, top heavy stems were very fragile and a bunch of them just snapped in half.

[applestar]

Another thought more in line with "training" -- from what you are describing, it sounds like you grew marijuana to be shorter and bushier with more side shoots and growing points, so in that sense, pruning and training indeterminate tomato plants are very different with entirely different practical purposes in mind.

With tomatoes, your goal will be to create better airflow and keep the fruits off of the ground. There is a limit to total weight of fruits each plant can support, so you will be balancing number of fruits vs. size. Some gardeners advocate removing all of the side shoots to single trunk/vine, or limiting to 2-4 "vines" (original main trunk plus no more than 1-3 side shoots). Indeterminate vines theoretically can grow fruit trusses along the vine between every two leaf nodes.

*** recommendations will vary depending on local climate -- humid vs. dry, hot vs. moderate vs. cool ***

Your choice of varieties will also be important -- some mature and fruit earlier, some set fruits more readily (more fruits per truss), and some are longer lived than others. During the hottest months, some will choke and die and others will rest then resume after temperatures cool down.

And in the meanwhile, you have to keep them healthy and protect them from fungal and pest attacks. Degree of success in doing this will depend on general health of your garden and what you (are willing to) use. Preventively and proactively. It depends on your measure of success.

You could grow perfect-*looking* plants and fruits that have no flavor and are drenched in chemicals, too.

[applestar]

Oh oh another thought!

Speaking of varieties, if you are looking to grow shorter bushier plants, you might want to look at dwarf and micro varieties, and some of the ultra-short determinates (Trying to remember if there are any ultra-short indeterminates...)

Genetic "dwarf" varieties can actually be 3-6 ft in ultimate height -- some are indeterminate and others are determinate. Most recent releases have seen increased fruit sizes, up from cherry and saladette size to salad and slicer sizes.

I believe all of the micros (12-24") are determinate with cherry to large cherry sized fruits so far.

[matt6977]

thank you everyone for the responses! I am doing indeterminate variety called big beef. Maybe I'm not understanding everything posted, I'm trying to figure if starting them months earlier than normal will result in more fruit. if starting them super early under t5 lights will get them growing, I want to make sure that when I plant them outside (after hardening them off under 1kw hps lighting) that I will gain from them being larger than most put out at the same time. would I benefit from letting them just grow tall or should I train them while their indoors. I live in Michigan and am planning to start the seeds in about a week. You guys are awesome for the feedback and information! btw anyone know what the amounts of micro and macro nutrients are used the most by tomatoes? I like doing custom soils.

[ID jit]

Am new here, and only know a pattern of gardening that was trained into me as a kid, so consider my suggestions last. The others are more knowledgeable than I am.

Big, mostly mature plants do not transplant well and are a pain to acclimate to the outside.

What I like to have for any type of tomato is a short, stocky, thick "trunked" plant and maybe 8" tall.

Once hardened and the last frost is cleared, plant them so only 4" is out of the ground and get them loosely bound to their stake as soon as they are 8" tall again.

I buy plants now since I am only dealing with a few and not the massive gardens my parents had me working in when I was a kid. I don't remember the pattern, but the short, stocky thing had a lot to do with how much light the plants received and what type of light it was. Not exactly sure when, but I remember February forward getting very busy with no time for ice fishing nor fly tying. This was in the very western part of MA. Hope this helps.

[imafan26]

Indeterminates are not pruned to make them short and bushy. It sacrifices fruit and promotes diseases because a lot of branching means less air movement. Instead of big beef, try a determinate tomatoe like New Big Dwarf which produces slicing tomatoes on a 3 ft tall plant and grow them under lights indoors and with reflective surfaces indoors to maximize light. If the room can be kept 68 degrees or better, it should produce fruit early. At 50 degrees the plant will be alive but it won't really want to fruit much. New Big Dwarf is usually under 36 inches. It is not going to produce a lot of tomatoes because of it's small stature.

Big beef is not one of the tallest plants I have grown, but as others have said, it is not going to be easy moving a 5-7 ft tall plant out and tomatoes have a large roots system, so you would have to plant it in a large pot and I would just heel in the pot once it gets outside. Tomatoes are heavy feeders and in the beginning all of the energy goes toward building a large root system and the support for the fruit. I don't know if a tomato would produce well if the roots are not established first. Technically tomatoes are perennial. They can live almost a year here, what usually kills them is disease.

[rainbowgardener]

And sorry, but I think the "custom soils" thing doesn't really work. Exactly what nutrients the plant uses the most depends on many things: what part of its life cycle it is in (rooting, growing, blooming, fruiting), the soil temperature, the ambient temperature, the amount of moisture in the soil, etc, etc. Personally I think all we can really do is give it good, enriched organic soil with plenty of everything and the plant will take what it needs.

[applestar]

Hardening is not just strength of sunlight -- the plant also will need to acclimate to air movement and wind (indoor grown plants are weak -- another reason it will be difficult to transplant -- tomato vines are limp and kink easily or stiff and break easily -- they need support, period -- and taller plants are nearly impossible to support and transplant. Also to rain (and other precipitations) of varying strengths (accompanied by wind) and daily fluctuation of daytime in the sun temperature and overnight low temperature.

All while withstanding and resisting fungal, bacterial, and pest attacks. -- and weak/stressed plants are vulnerable to attack (actually releases pheromones and signals that attract pests).

Bottom -line, I think we are all saying don't start now but wait until at least after mid-February to sow seeds and start your seedlings for majority of your tomato plants. Don't start earlier unless you plan on planting in the ground earlier with adequate protection that will be sufficient for tomatoes in your area (remember, the ground temperature has significant influence, not just air temp.)

I would suggest that for now and during the winter, you might want to start practicing with 1/2 dozen or so plants -- get the hang of starting seeds and caring for the seedlings (tomato -- I realize you said you are experienced with other crops but every kind of plant has different needs), how and the rate at which they grow, etc. If you want to winter-grow something in your existing setup for the next couple of months, pick something other than tomatoes -- seriously, I've tried and there are easier crop to grow (For example, if you grow peppers during the main season, mature peppers are easier to grow snd fruit in winter indoor conditions. OR if you have heat mats/sufficiently warm seed starting area (80's+) and heated growing area (mid-70's and up) with heat mats, you can try growing peppers, which respond to all the pruning you are talking about much more readily and in the way you seem to be expecting.)

...but maybe we are all under-estimating the growing setup you already have... ? You might have the necessary light and heat and air movement all ready to go, with needed head-room to grow tall plants -- in which case, you would be able to grow full sized tomato plants in large containers 10 gal+ per plant....

Right now this is the darkest time of the year and many plants will not grow well unless adequately supported/tricked with artificial light and warmth, but you could try. We are at full moon which according to some people is not the right time to sow tomato (and pepper) seeds.

And even if your tomato seeds sprouted in 3-5 days which is usually the earliest, unless you can keep them warm like imafan said, Big Beef will take 2-1/2 months from transplant (ideal summer conditions) or longer for first fruit. Once they start to bloom, you will need to encourage pollination -- I use an electric toothbrush.

If you try other varieties that I suggested, you will see the difference in the growth patterns. Indeterminate seedlings grow much taller faster, dwarfs are slower with shorter internodes, and micros even less.

[applestar]

I don't remember the pattern, but the short, stocky thing had a lot to do with how much light the plants received and what type of light it was.

You are right about the goal being short, stocky seedlings. In addition to what you mentioned, young tomato seedlings respond well to being exposed to lower temps -- low 50's -- with daytime fluctuation of (I think) 10 to 15 degrees.

[imafan26]

You can keep a tomato small and stunted but it won't amount to much if you plant it out. It does not always grow as vigorously when it has been kept in a small pot too long. It produces less fruit, not more and it does not handle stress well when it is tranplanted out older after the stems start to harden up.