Got abuse for the way I garden.

[tomf]

This is not to start an argument over who's methods are best, but to point out gardening is about results and what works for each of us. As in so many things when people are so set in their ways they are not open to learn or hear what may work for others., this should not be the case for gardeners; IMHO.

I recently talked with someone who gave me a hard time as I use a tractor to till my garden. He felt when you disturb the soil it kills it and I was wrong to do such as it kills the soil. This person does a small no till garden, and puts in many hours of manual labor he told me. He also felt if I paid enough people to work his method and put in the time it would work so much better; like I can pay people and I have more time! He was insistent that I was wrong; where he has a right to feel his way works for him I did not care for his condescending attitude. Had this person simply wanted to share information and talk about what he does and how it works for him in a friendly way it would have been fine. His methods would not work for me or the scale I work.

I have read plenty on soil health and my soil is much more healthy than when I started working it. My wife went to college for agriculture and studied soil and soil health, so we are not ignorant. There are those few gardeners that feel there methods are the only way to garden.
Soil health is very important to a healthy garden and I feel over use of chemicals is not good, and is hurting our farm land, I avoid even using them.

When I started my garden the soil was compacted hard pan and full of weeds. As I tilled sand and compost into the soil it got better every year. Tilling broke up the hardpan and worked nutrients into the nutrient poor soil. Breaking up the hardpan also aerated the soil and softened it up so roots could grow. My garden soil is rich and full of life, people often compliment me on it.

The fact that I use a tractor would suggest I may garden on a bit of a different scale than a backyard garden. Any one who has ever read my posts about things I am doing on our property knows that with out a tractor I could not manage my land. As it is I only manage a portion of it now. Most of our land is managed for wildlife and to be park like near the house. Our land is considered a farm by the state, and the scale of things is different than a back yard gardener deals with, some people may not understand what it takes to keep it up, and to manage a health forest that is less likely to burn in a fire.

[gumbo2176]

I'm with your on your statement about being open to a civil conversation about differing gardening methods, and like you, I'd be more than a little put off by someone coming off like this person did with you. My urban backyard garden is smaller than some of our fellow posters, but larger than some too, and I would not want to hand turn my 1000 sq. ft. garden area by hand, thus the use of a small 5 HP tiller to get the job done.

Also like you, my garden spot when first turned over was nothing but heavy clay. Over the years I've added literally tons of composted material and other organic matter to amend the soil to where it is now quite loose and so much easier to work. The soil was so much better than the parts of my yard not cultivated that after Hurricane Katrina hit and flooded my property killing all my grass, it was where my garden was that came back very strong for the year I took off gardening to repair my home and I had a thick lawn whereas the rest of the yard was patchy at best.

How I choose to work it is my business, and I'm sure if yours is big enough to use a tractor to turn the soil and pull your rows, then I'd be damned if I'd attempt to do all that by hand. I have little patience for people who come at me like that person did to you, especially if done so in a condescending manner.

[webmaster]

Yeah... some people... When I was new to saltwater fishing an old salt came over to criticize my pole, my reel, my lure, my fishing line. Didn't have a kind or helpful thing to say. I didn't say anything back to him though. Just let him run his mouth and eventually he left.

I don't have time for arguments or debates. Not with strangers or even with friends. Not anything I put my energy into. I do enjoy unraveling a topic and getting deeper into it.

[tomf]

I feel gardening and working on the land is enjoyable, with a garden you get the added joy of eating fresh vegetables and fruits. One can get joy from all sizes of gardens, it is not the scale or even how you work but the joy and benefit of what you do in your garden, or land. We should all share that joy no mater what methods or size our gardens are. We need to be mindful that we all may have different experiences and needs.
Sharing what works for you, and what you are doing is good, reading about what people are doing and how they enjoy it is a joy to me.

[HoneyBerry]

There was a time when things like that would get to me, but that is no longer the case. What I do now is ignore the criticism. Or buy more tractors and park them where the criticizer can see them. Or paint a picture of a tractor on the side of my barn. Or smile & wave happily at the critizer when I'm plowing with my tractor.

[Allyn]

I agree with you, Tom. I'm always open to suggestions and I like to get info on different ways to do things; but in the end, I try what I want to try if it makes sense to me and I continue doing what works for me. My father-in-law continues to explain to me why what I'm doing in the garden is wrong and he goes into detail about methods he's seen on YouTube videos that are better. He told me my SIP containers wouldn't work. (So far, they have worked wonderfully.) He was here yesterday and rolled his eyes at my tomato plants. Hey, it's the middle of December and I have tomatoes (in SIPs) ripening on the vine. What's in his garden? Nothing. How 'wrong" can my methods be?

I hope the person that gave you a hard time isn't someone you have to see very often. Some people just need to feel superior by sharing (imposing?) their "expertise." I spent a lot of time reading up on square-foot gardening a few years ago and according to Mel, if a garden requires hours of manual labor, you're doing it wrong. I'm guessing that's a concept your friend hasn't grasped.

[rainbowgardener]

"Minds are like parachutes-- they only work when they are open~"

As I get older, I have less and less patience with people who think they know everything and they are right and everyone else is wrong.

My way of gardening is very different, but I well know it only works for me the way I do it, because I am gardening on such a small scale. I do want to see how we do commercial agriculture changed, but we have to figure out how to do that so that we are working more with nature and not as fossil fuel dependent, but still manageable at farm scale (family farm that is, not necessarily agribusiness).

Solar powered tractor, anyone?

[gumbo2176]

Rainbow, I keep trying to talk my husband into getting a span of mules. I've even offered to help him learn how to plow, disc, and spread manure using mule-driven equipment. He is less than enthusiastic. I think it's the thought of the view while he is doing the work that puts him off.

Walking behind a team of flatulent mules is not high on my list of fun things to do. LOL Besides, if it's a choice between mules and a tractor, I'm going with tractor. You don't have to feed it, muck stalls or pay vet bills. I'm confident in my ability to fix almost anything mechanical, so maintaining a tractor would be second nature to me.

And as far as the view. Have you been to Wal-Mart lately and see some of the people walking around that place. EWWWW!!!!!

[rainbowgardener]

But the mules don't drink fossil fuel and the tractor can't heal itself or reproduce itself or produce fertilizer for the soil...

If you can't get petroleum products shipped thousands of miles any more (that time will come soon!), you can grow what your mules need.

Have you thought about dressing the mules for a nicer view?









(I DO know these are horses, not mules, but I couldn't find any pictures of mules decently clad!)

[lakngulf]

Lots of ways to garden, and important enough to produce some good healthy products that we should all be ready to learn from another's experience. But you can bet this guy will go the opposite direction of anyone thinking they have the "only" way.

Thank goodness mules are not the only way. Been there, watched my Dad do that, tried it myself, and I get the Gees and the Haws mixed up, along with the veggies we were plowing.

[rainbowgardener]

"I don't know about the healing part, but the reproducing part--well, they are mules."

Oh right! You can see I haven't been a country girl for very long. Mules don't. But other draft animals (horses, oxen, donkeys) would.

[tomf]

Those are some crazy horse blankets.

[applestar]

It's really too bad because WE know you have lots of great ideas and know-how, but sadly, this person who has you right there as a tremendous resource will never learn anything.

[tomf]

So the other day people were posting on Facebook about tilling or no tilling. I said that I had hard pan that only weeds would grow in and I tilled in lots of amendments into the soil and now have very health soil that grows crops very well. Someone told me I was an idiot and he hoped I would not have kids, he said this with lots of F bombs. I simply replied that I would not lower my self to his level. This is only the 2nd time I had posted anything on till or no till, I have never had anyone get like this on any other garden subject.
I have to add that one of the things I like about this forum is that people are almost always civil, and have an attitude that we are sharing and not arguing.

[rainbowgardener]

OMG..... The internet is a wonderful thing, but it also seems to work like a lynch mob sometimes -- anonymity and distance are disinhibiting, so people say things and behave in ways that they (presumably!) never would face to face. If you read the comments under almost any news item on-line, they are terrible, just like what you got, people calling vile names and cursing... I think it is really a bad thing, because it gives the impression that that degraded level of discourse is acceptable and that name calling is a reasonable way of disputing someone's argument. You see the effects of that in our politics.

There are no flame wars around here partly due to the hard work of the moderators. Because they clean all that stuff out, it helps maintain the civil tone and makes sure no one gets the idea that that stuff is OK. Thanks, mods!

[tomf]

Yes I agree people hide behind their computers and post the rudest things, I will not lower myself to do such. I do appreciate the work the moderators do here, it is nice to have a place where politeness counts. I also think that most if not all of the people here are decent.

[tomf]

I once replied in a rude way, and I had no idea why I did until I thought about it. My brash comment had to do with some bottled up feelings I had over my father in laws death and my wife's depression over it; the subject hit on things related to it. It was just a bad joke that was posted, nothing I should have reacted to. When I saw what I did and the come back he posted, I felt so ashamed and apologized profusely. I explained that feelings just came out I did not know I had and what they were about. The person was very nice after I explained and told him how sorry I was. I then vowed to never post anything rude or nasty again, so far so good.

[SarahTheMascara]

Where I live if you don't till the soil a couple times before planting potatoes the potatoes get worms! As I discovered the hard way two years ago. I don't understand why he would care how you choose to garden, especially if you get good yield on your crops. Very strange. My outlook has always been to ignore people who forcefully and rudely express their opinions, when that's all it is, an opinion. No bearing on reality.

[meandtk]

My thoughts are that a person has to do what he/she must.
Some folks must till. Others are able to do no till.
Some must till intensely. Others may be able to till lightly and it do well.
I just broke up some ground that had been fallow for 15-20 years. It took much going over to break through the grass roots, as I have no turning plow, just a disc to pull behind a small tractor. I also have an invasive grass that I will have to till regularly to kill it back.
One must be understanding toward the needs of those whom he addresses.
Thanks to all here who post with such understanding.

[tomf]

I found this picture.

[Allyn]

I love that pic. Old dude found a way to do what he needed to get done. 'Nuff said.

[PaulF]

Good post and timely, too. Don't know how I missed this one. I get invited to give gardening seminars and talks several time a year on many different topics. I always go into these sessions knowing whatever I say will be treated as gospel by some and others will dispute everything I say. Some of the topics I am asked to talk about I feel I know pretty well and others I have a fairly good grasp on but know there is so much to learn.

I diffuse these sessions by beginning with the statement, "This is the way many feel makes their gardening successful, but there are so many variables that no one way is either right or wrong. I am here to learn as much as teach. Take everything I say and use what you want and forget the parts you do not agree with. If we both learn something the day is not a waste of time." During or after the sessions there is always give and take of ideas and methods. Makes the hour or two go by pretty quickly.

[digitS']

For some, intolerance is imagined as a virtue.

Human growth falters. Reasoning stops.

These individuals are chained within their fenced yards.

Steve

[PaulF]

We in the "nice" mid-west don't see quite so many vocal know-it-alls. In the last ten years only one or two of them invaded one of my discussions and they left early since I refuse to give in to them. I take their name and phone number so they can be put on the list as presenters for the future. None were aggressively obnoxious, thank goodness.

[gumbo2176]

Tom, you should have invited that guy to come over to your garden and allow him the pleasure of breaking new ground with a shovel, fork, or whatever hand tool he chooses. That may have made an impact on him, or at least his hands, arms and back.

I too have heavy clay soil and when I first put in my vegetable garden many years ago, I borrowed a friends rear tine 5 HP tiller and every 3-4 ft. I had to stop it and dig the clay out of the tines. What I figured would take me a little over a day wound up taking me a full week of tilling, removing clay from the tines and repeating that process.

Then it was on to the horse stables to dig out truckload after truckload of well composted manure, hay and straw to amend the garden---then till that all in. Today, my soil is 100% better than it was way back then and I can now turn over the soil in my garden in a little over an hour to almost 1 ft. deep with a well used front tine 5 HP tiller.

[ButterflyLady29]

Tilling works in some situations and not others, that's simply the way it is. I tried to convert a small section of new ground into garden without tilling. Didn't work. That section is now part of a larger garden and it still isn't as nice as the tilled portion. One of my fenced gardens was tilled by a previous gardener so that one doesn't count in the till/no till argument. Another garden was never tilled but was inhabited by some digging ducks before it was converted so that doesn't count either.

I haven't tilled the fenced gardens since I've owned the property, mostly due to not having a tiller, but I dumped hundreds of gallons of mulch,compost, and other organic material on the gardens over the years I've planted there. The soil is nice and loose and dark, not at all like the nasty clay that even the previous owner had to work with.

And I've seen the way farmland has changed since the inception of no-till farming was implemented. My grandfather would till in cover crops and tons of manure and his fields were nice and fertile. Since the land was rented and the renter went to no-till the soil has visibly degraded. I don't know if it's not tilling or the loss of organic material but there are pieces of old crop waste laying on the ground for years after that crop was harvested when before the material had decomposed and nourished the soil.

Then there are the people who think any soil disturbance is a crime against nature. That's a whole 'nother story.