Compost vs fertilizer???

[Emmdemeester]

So I've never used fertilizer in my life. But this year I decided to plant in plastic buckets because we move so Much and always have to restart with the garden. I figured this way I can take my garden everywhere with me! Since I planted in buckets I've read I should be fertilizing. So I'm wondering if I can use compost instead?

I used an organic mix compost about a ratio of 8:1 potting soil:compost in the pails then after everything was planted i sprinkled some mushroom compost on top before I watered. I read just putting compost on top is effective as it the nutrients will go down to the roots with the water. Is this correct? Was my ratio okay of potting soil and compost?

I don't want to fertilize if I don't have to, but I know my plants will need the nutrients. Can I add compost and have the same affect as fertilizer? If so, how much compost should I be adding over the summer? Can you use too much compost and mess up your plants from too may nutrients? Any info on this topic is greatly appreciated! Thanks!

[JONA]

Hi Emmdemeester,
For most small plants what you are doing will be fine.....but....although potting compost will carry most of the nutrients the plants need...mushroom compost will not.
Most mushroom compost is straight from the mushroom beds after harvesting and although it is pretty 'clean'through the composting process the mushrooms themselves will have used up most of its nutritional value. It just makes a great water retaining and soil conditioning product.
So, any larger plant is going to struggle in a container unless it gets some form of feeding now and then.
This can be by straight fertilisers or organic additives like concentrated seaweed etc.
Smaller shrubs will probably get by with annual top ups of good quality compost...although they may need to have some of the top soil removed now and then to make way for the replacement.
Like all plants that spend their lives in pots you have to be on the lookout for any deficiencies that may appear. Flowering or fruiting plants will have higher potash requirements and magnesium and iron deficiencies may hit larger leafed plants.
Just watch carefully and enjoy.

[applestar]

What is your issue with fertilizer? Your plants need nutrients to live and grow and especially if you expect them to produce flowers and fruits, they need more than just enough to survive. They can't make something out of nothing.

Depending on what kind of compost you are talking about, the amount of nutrients is negligible, though there are ways to increase their nutrient value. Store bought Mushroom compost, as JONA explained is spent after the mushrooms have taken most of the available nutrients.

If you want to do your own research, there are certainly ways to supply at least some of their nutrient needs without buying and using what is called "fertilizer". Are you giving them anything at all currently? During the winter when I have all my freeze sensitive plants in the house, I rinse beverage containers with water and dump the rinse water in empty beverage jugs to water with - milk, juice, soda bottles - I add rice and beans rinsing water, pasta cooking water (no salt), put in banana peels, and other fruit scraps, cooked eggshells, used coffee grounds and tea bags, leftover cold coffee....

I also put earthworms in every container -- both the compost eating red wigglers and soil digesting night crawlers.

I keep a vermicomposter going -- so I always have more little baby worms and also to use the vermicompost/worm casting. Bokashi fermenting is another way you can use your food scraps to make nutrient dense plant food.

I make AACT -- actively aerated compost tea.

--- doing all this lets me get away with not using much fertilizer,, especially since most of the plants are in hibernation state during the winter and not actively growing. BUT they seem to need more when they are in active growth. And when I notice signs of deficiency, I use organic fertilizers appropriate for the type of plants.

[rainbowgardener]

No compost is not the same as fertilizer. A good organic fertilizer will have NPK numbers of something like 4-5-4. (By contrast synthetic fertilizers might be anywhere from 10-10-10 to 20-20-20.) Compost is at most 1-1-1, meaning 1% nitrogen, etc. AND the NPK (and usually other nutrients) in organic fertilizer is in a form where it will quickly be available to the plants. The nutrients in compost aren't available until the compost breaks down more (which is why applestar puts worms in her pots to help with that break down process).

Growing in the ground, we use compost because it improves the soil texture and moisture holding capacity and drainage AND along with the small amount of nutrients, it adds a lot of beneficial micro-organisms and macro-organisms (e.g. earthworms) which help the plants use the nutrients both in the compost and in the soil, and help break down all the organic material we add in the form of mulch, etc. And growing in the ground it doesn't matter so much that the percent of nutrients is low, because you can add compost by the shovelful, where as you have to use synthetic ferts by the spoonful or they will burn plants.

But you can't put more compost in your pots, because it is too heavy/ dense and will pack down and exclude oxygen. Pots dry out fast so have to be watered more, but every time you water you are flushing nutrients (especially nitrogen, which is the most transient) out of the soil. So yes, you will have to fertilize your plants in pots. Just look for a good organic fertilizer that has trace nutrients as well as the NPK and has micro-organisms.

But you said you are using potting soil with compost added. Does your potting soil not come with MiracleGro or something already in it? I find it hard to find any potting soil commercially that doesn't have fertilizers. If it has M-G in it, you won't need to fertilize for the first couple months.

[Emmdemeester]

Thanks for everyone's replies!

Just to be a bit more clear, I'm not talking about house plants, just vegetables.

So far I've just put a bit of compost in with the potting soil. I didn't want to put any in because I read that it needs to be nice and fluffy for drainage, but the guy at the green house who sold me the potting soil said it would be a good idea to put some compost in as well. I am sure the potting soil has fertilizer in it, most bagged soils come with enough nutrients to feed for a few weeks to a few months.

It's not that I have an "issue" with fertilizer, I just don't know much about feeding a garden so I was wondering if compost would be as effective, as it is definitely the more natural of the 2, so if it would have been just as effective I would prefer to use compost. But if it's not the same I would just use an organic fertilizer. No problem.

The reason I used mushroom compost is because I went back to the green house as I ran out of compost and I asked for a small bag. The girl brought me that and said it was the smallest bag they had and I had a feeling it wasn't good but my kid had already had enough and I had to get out of there quick so I just took it. I didn't mix any of it in to any of my plants though, just sprinkled it on top. So it shouldn't be a problem right? And I plan to use these year after year so I'm sure the bit of compost inside won't be too bad. I hope anyway.

At the end of the day I'm sure I'll get some vegetables whether I do things right or not and I'm just experimenting. My moms always been the type of gardener to just throw the seeds in the ground and water and nothing else, so that's all I knew. Until I started doing my research over the winter I had no idea about 3 sisters planting, setting a trellis up for your peas, how to prevent your tomatoes from splitting etc...so I have just learned so much stuff, I'm kind of in experimentation mode here I'm sure I won't get it all right this year but that's ok. I'll continue learning!


One more question! Is it pretty hard to over fertilize or is this something I really need to be careful with?

[imafan26]

It depends on the fertilizer. Most of the organic fertilizers have very low numbers and only a part of the nitrogen will be available to the plants immediately. Organic fertilizer needs to be converted by soil organisms to a form that is useable for the plants

Synthetic fertilizers, on the other hand, are ready to use. They are already in a form that is readily taken up by plants. The numbers are generally higher than organic, but there are some slow release fertilizers out there. Because of the higher numbers you do have to be careful not to over fertilize or you can burn your plant or in the case of seeds, may keep them from sprouting.

Fertilizer should be applied around the edges of the pot except for the foliar types like MG, fish emulsion,
AACT and kelp which in diluted form can be applied to the leaves.
You should only give the plants what they need and not over do things. Too much nitrogen on tomatoes and other fruit bearing plants will give you leaves at the expense of fruit. Too much of one nutrient can suppress another.

I don't have luck awith compost or manure in pots. It always results in dead plants for me. Manures are too strong except in tea form and compost just holds too much water and kills plants. Other people don't have that problem but they are using different sources for their composts and they may not have the heavy clay soil that I have.

[rainbowgardener]

Vegetable plants are just plants and still need nutrients to grow and produce.

The mushroom compost won't hurt anything, it just doesn't add a lot of nutrients.

Organic fertilizer will be fine, it just will need to be done a little more frequently. You have to understand that growing things in pots means that you have to fertilize regularly, since the only nutrients they get are what you provide and you are constantly washing them away with watering. Plan on fertilizing once or twice a month.

You didn't answer my question about whether the potting soil has Miracle-Gro or something like that in it. If so you don't want to be adding much fertilizer on top of that at first.

I agree with imafan that compost and manure don't work well in containers, because of bad drainage and packing down. But 8:1 should be OK. If you notice your soil staying wet, you can (gently!) mix a little perlite or vermiculite or sand in for drainage.

[Emmdemeester]

Vegetable plants are just plants and still need nutrients to grow and produce.

The mushroom compost won't hurt anything, it just doesn't add a lot of nutrients.

Organic fertilizer will be fine, it just will need to be done a little more frequently. You have to understand that growing things in pots means that you have to fertilize regularly, since the only nutrients they get are what you provide and you are constantly washing them away with watering. Plan on fertilizing once or twice a month.

You didn't answer my question about whether the potting soil has Miracle-Gro or something like that in it. If so you don't want to be adding much fertilizer on top of that at first.

I agree with imafan that compost and manure don't work well in containers, because of bad drainage and packing down. But 8:1 should be OK. If you notice your soil staying wet, you can (gently!) mix a little perlite or vermiculite or sand in for drainage.

I'm not sure if it has miracle grow, but the package does say it has a bit of nutrient in it to get it through getmination and such. I'm not sure what it is though. I'll have to read the package more closely.

So if I just use an organic fertilizer 1-2 times per month, that won't be too much?

[rainbowgardener]

So if I just use an organic fertilizer 1-2 times per month, that won't be too much?

NOT too much. Remember the plant is totally dependent on you for nutrients and you are constantly washing them away.

[Emmdemeester]

So if I just use an organic fertilizer 1-2 times per month, that won't be too much?

NOT too much. Remember the plant is totally dependent on you for nutrients and you are constantly washing them away.

Thanks for the help

[toxcrusadr]

I kind of like the time-release beads, you can scratch them into the surface and they dissolve just a bit every time you water. I can't remember the product name but they come in a clear jug.

Mainly you should keep an eye on your plants and they will tell you if they are short on nutrients. Leaves pale? Probably need some nitrogen. But that shouldn't happen very soon with the stuff you planted them in. If they grow bushy and green with no fruit, you used too much nitrogen. A balanced fert for potted plants is best - it should have NP and K and the N won't be real high for veggies. 29-3-3 lawn food is definitely out! :-]

[Gary350]

Farmers never compost 2000 acres fields like gardeners do but they do plow under old crops, think about that. Compost has almost no food value for plants but is excellent for root growth it softens the soil. I buy fertilizer in 50 lb bags at Farm Supply Store they last me about 5 years in my 35'x60' garden. If your planting in buckets 50 lbs will last you 30 years you should buy smaller amounts. If your using potting soil it has very little food value for plants you need fertilizer. Tomatoes need very little nitrogen. Peppers, squash, okra, beans, do good with 15/15/15. Corn, onions, garlic all needs lots of nitrogen. Potatoes needs no nitrogen. With no experience with fertilizer do not fertilize until plants are 10" tall, 1 tablespoon per plant per week is fine, when plants are 3 ft tall 2 tablespoons is good, when plants are 5 ft tall 3 tablespoons is fine. When temperature is above 85 degrees F hot and sunny NO more fertilizer all summer. With potting soil in hot weather it will be best to mix soil with water then water plants with muddy water.

[Emmdemeester]

Farmers never compost 2000 acres fields like gardeners do but they do plow under old crops, think about that. Compost has almost no food value for plants but is excellent for root growth it softens the soil. I buy fertilizer in 50 lb bags at Farm Supply Store they last me about 5 years in my 35'x60' garden. If your planting in buckets 50 lbs will last you 30 years you should buy smaller amounts. If your using potting soil it has very little food value for plants you need fertilizer. Tomatoes need very little nitrogen. Peppers, squash, okra, beans, do good with 15/15/15. Corn, onions, garlic all needs lots of nitrogen. Potatoes needs no nitrogen. With no experience with fertilizer do not fertilize until plants are 10" tall, 1 tablespoon per plant per week is fine, when plants are 3 ft tall 2 tablespoons is good, when plants are 5 ft tall 3 tablespoons is fine. When temperature is above 85 degrees F hot and sunny NO more fertilizer all summer. With potting soil in hot weather it will be best to mix soil with water then water plants with muddy water.

Thanks for the tips! So you're saying I shouldn't fertilize yet since I just planted? A couple of my tomato leaves are starting to look yellow Ish. I thought it might be from lack of nutrients (someone else told me when the leaves are yellow they need nitrogen). They definitely aren't 10 inches high yet.

And if I stop fertilizing when the weather gets hot, how would my plants get nutrients? I guess I don't understand why you have to stop when it gets hot.

Thanks!

[imafan26]

You should fertilize when the plants are actively growing. Yellowing can mean too much water or the soil is not drying out between watering (my issue with compost in pots). Yellowing on the bottom with green leaves on top usually mean their is a lack of nitrogen. When it turns very hot a lot of plants will not be growing and they will try to conserve water any way they can which is usually by wilting and dropping flowers and fruit in the heat. You feed plants when they are growing but not when they are dormant or in distress.

When the weather gets hot, you have to make sure the plants have enough room in the pot so the soil stays moist and the plants don't wilt in midday. I still feed my plants but usually when summer rolls around, the plants are already fruiting and they have a limited life after that so, I don't feed them as much, but I make sure they get a lot of water. I usually feed my plants when the true leaves appear, when the first flowers show and when the first fruit come out. After that, I feed the plants monthly until they are done. Most of the annual veggies like beans, cukes, bell peppers, and leafy greens mature between 21 (radish)- 100 days for squash. Once they start fruiting, most will give fruit for about 6 weeks and die. Tomatoes are the exception as they are perennial in mild climates and it is disease that kill them so I can have the same tomato for 7-9 months if it doesn't rain a lot. In the states, bell peppers last till frost, here I am lucky if I get 3-8 peppers (2 flushes) before they are gone. The frutescens, baccatum, and chinense peppers can live here for years.

[Emmdemeester]

You should fertilize when the plants are actively growing. Yellowing can mean too much water or the soil is not drying out between watering (my issue with compost in pots). Yellowing on the bottom with green leaves on top usually mean their is a lack of nitrogen. When it turns very hot a lot of plants will not be growing and they will try to conserve water any way they can which is usually by wilting and dropping flowers and fruit in the heat. You feed plants when they are growing but not when they are dormant or in distress.

When the weather gets hot, you have to make sure the plants have enough room in the pot so the soil stays moist and the plants don't wilt in midday. I still feed my plants but usually when summer rolls around, the plants are already fruiting and they have a limited life after that so, I don't feed them as much, but I make sure they get a lot of water. I usually feed my plants when the true leaves appear, when the first flowers show and when the first fruit come out. After that, I feed the plants monthly until they are done. Most of the annual veggies like beans, cukes, bell peppers, and leafy greens mature between 21 (radish)- 100 days for squash. Once they start fruiting, most will give fruit for about 6 weeks and die. Tomatoes are the exception as they are perennial in mild climates and it is disease that kill them so I can have the same tomato for 7-9 months if it doesn't rain a lot. In the states, bell peppers last till frost, here I am lucky if I get 3-8 peppers (2 flushes) before they are gone. The frutescens, baccatum, and chinense peppers can live here for years.

So I should be letting my plants dry out before watering? I have been watering every day as I thought it was good to keep them kind of damp at all times. Hopefully I didn't mess anything up!