Zelkova project

[constantstaticx3]

Moderators note: In order to keep two topics separate, the first five posts of this thread were split from the thread [url=https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4176]Zelkova broom progression.[/url]


I bought a sutible tree to try the same technique a couple weeks ago. I plan on letting it grow this year and doing the chop next spring. Thanks for the updates its lookin good .

Tom

[Gnome]

Tom,

I bought a sutible tree to try the same technique a couple weeks ago. I plan on letting it grow this year and doing the chop next spring.

Glad you found one. Giving it a year to grow certainly cannot hurt. What is the diameter of the trunk now? How about a picture?

Is there enough room for root growth in the nursery pot to allow 2 or more years to pass. Or will you be re-potting it now? Have you looked at the surface roots closely. In other words will they be suitable as your future nebari or do they need major work?

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

The diameter of the trunk is about a half an inch but the base is still beneath the soil line so it is probobly more. I'll try and take a pick this weekend if the weather permits .

I have examined the surface roots a little bit but I've only seen one small root. I haven't gone real deep though so there may be some better ones down below.

I had to remove a few low branches and I made the wounds a little hollow in the middle so they will heal over smoothly.

I need to pull the tree out of the pot to check the condition af the roots. I will probobly repot it this year back into the same pot because I believe it will increase the diameter of the trunk more. I just recieved ingredients for "proper" bonsai soil a couple weeks ago and I am anxious to use it. Maybe I'll do that this weekend, I really want to do some work .

I'll try to get those pics up this weekend.

Tom

[Gnome]

Tom,

I will probobly repot it this year back into the same pot because I believe it will increase the diameter of the trunk more.

I like the idea of re-potting this year but I'm not so sure about using the same pot again. Why not take this opportunity to begin the process of reducing the depth of the root-ball and creating a spreading nebari. A training box/pot that is wider than it is tall helps in that regard.

If you look at the roots of my tree you'll see the defect in the trunk. I have another Zelkova that makes this one look perfect, the roots are so knotted that I am going to have to layer it as well. Zelkovas seem to be prone to this, possibly due to their vigorous nature. By getting your tree into a shallow training pot this spring, while it is still young, you have a chance to correct any defects you may find.

Something else to consider, a trunk of 1/2 inch is still a little small, mine is about 1 inch at the top. A couple of years in a training box being well fed should help to thicken it up. You can also cut down a larger nursery pot, or even a five gallon bucket with holes drilled for drainage, if you feel that it is wide enough. I don't like to use the cut down nursery pots as they seem to lose a lot of their strength when the rim is cut off.

I have made boxes from 2x4's although they are a bit of overkill for the sizes I use, about 16 inches square. 1x6's are 3/4 inch thick by about 5 1/4 inch wide, this makes a pretty good training box. The bottom is made up of individual boards with gaps between each. Screening of course must be used to prevent your medium from falling out.

When you post your pictures it might be best to start a new thread for both our sakes.

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

Why not take this opportunity to begin the process of reducing the depth of the root-ball and creating a spreading nebari.

Yea I was thinking of just keeping the tree healthy until I trunk chopped it. I guess I was thinking that the tree should have lots of roots in a deep pot so I could insure its survival, plus I don't have any other nursery pots, I threw them all out, I plan to keep all of them this year.

I did, however forget I could easily make a pot out of wood, I have plenty of it, and since you say that you have had problems with the roots on your zelkava's then I deffinantly am going to pot it into a training pot.

Something else to consider, a trunk of 1/2 inch is still a little small, mine is about 1 inch at the top. A couple of years in a training box being well fed should help to thicken it up.

Yes, I agree. I emailed a bonsai nursery and asked them to bring the straitest trunked zelkova's to the Philadelphia Flower Show so I didn't get to see it before hand but it will still do the job.

I was planning on repoting it this year and, noting how fast zelkova's grow, next spring decide wether I should chop it then or wait another year. I have yet to see the entire base so it may just be ready next year, who knows.

I'll definantly start a new thread, this ones getting a bit lenghty.

Tom

[constantstaticx3]

Ok here are the pics.
This is the entire tree, its roughly 2 feet tall.
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A closer view of the trunk.
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A close up of the trunk. At the site of the wound it is 1/2 an inch thick.
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There does seem to be a slight bend in the base but that can be corrected by planting it at a certain angle. I tried to dig down to the base as far as I could but the soil was still partialy frozen. It seems every time I have to take pics it snows.

I recently ordered some bulb pans to use as training pots, if they come this week then I'll post pictures of my repotting process. That will also show the true potential of the tree and if it will work for this technique cause I'm starting to have my doubts but we'll see.

Tom

[Gnome]

Tom,

There does seem to be a slight bend in the base but that can be corrected by planting it at a certain angle.

I don't think that small curve at the bottom will be much of a problem. As the trunk thickens it may become less noticeable. And you can always turn the trunk so it is not so visible.

The angle about 1/4 of the way up is a little more problematic for a broom. You may be able to straighten it if necessary. Or simply plan on making your cut just below it. I looks to be about 6 inches up, this would, following the rule of thirds, make the the height of the finished tree about 18 inches high. A nice medium sized tree. I guess it depends on how long you grow it out before you start the next phase.

Get some pictures of the roots as you re-pot if you are able. Thanks for posting.

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

The angle about 1/4 of the way up is a little more problematic for a broom.

Yes, I did plan on cutting just below it. Also the base is still under the soil so its real hight is still unknown, this is a common occurance with this company.

I will document the repotting process thorougly with pics and descriptions. Hopefully I wont have to do too much work on the roots. After repotting process, I will try to decide how long I should let it grow out for.

Tom

[rjj]

Very nice tree Tom.

If it were mine, I would pass on the broom style and go with an informal upright. From the photos it looks like you have great branch placement low on the tree. I would trunk chop about an inch below that ugly cut they made. . Develop a new apex and you've got a beautiful tree with a little more branch refining.

Good luck with it whatever you choose to do.

randy

[constantstaticx3]

Randy,

I never looked at it that way. It's a possibility, I can always try to find another one at a nursery to do the chop on cause I really want to try the technique. I have plenty of time to decide what I want to do so...

I'll keep you posted .

Tom

Edit: Actualy I just looked at the trees branches again and I think the pic gave them more credit then they deserve so if I were to create an informal upright I think I would have to prune them back hard in order to fix them. Its still a possiblity though.

[constantstaticx3]

Ok, just repotted 10min ago.
The roots were very entangled and there were many thick ones. Also there were some that were growing upwards.
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A closer view.
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This is after a lot of untangleing and pruning.
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An underside view of where I pruned the larger roots.
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I then repotted it into my new "soil", in a 10 inch bulb pan.
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I'm so glad I did more extensive root work now. If I were to wait till after the chop the roots would have been so entangled that it would have been impossible to work with.

There is really no nabari to speak of, there were to roots at the base but they grew straight down so I romoved them.

Also, with such a root prune do you think I should remove some of the top of the tree? If so I was planning to remove right where the last chop was where Randy had said before, right in the middle of the tree.

Tom

[constantstaticx3]

Ok well this tree has done a lot of growing this year. I have actually turned away from creating a broom out of the main tree but I have decide to air layer off the vigorous top and creat a broom out of that.
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Tom

[constantstaticx3]

Norm,

I need your help. I can't decide whether I should air layer this year or let it grow another year or to until the thickness is what I want and then air layer? Any suggestions? I think if I do it this year now is the time to do it. Then next year I will ground layer to improve the base of the main tree and then eventually chop the whole thing back and try to make something of it.

Tom

[Gnome]

Tom,

I had to take the time to go back and re-read this thread and I wasn't up to it last night. I take it from your comments , last year and this, that you are now intending to make an informal upright from the base. Is that correct?

The longer you wait to do an air layer on the top the longer you must wait to begin work on the bottom, but the base is still pretty young as well so I don't suppose it would hurt to leave the whole thing go for a while to act as a sort of sacrificial leader.

Even after you air layer the top it will take several years of unrestricted growth to thicken enough for the broom thing to work unless you want a rather small one like I posted this year. I have had several others in the garden for four or five years now just growing out. More on this later.

I guess a lot of it depends upon how large you envision the finished trees, especially the base. If you would like a small tree then perhaps this year would be the way to go so you can begin development sooner. If, on the other hand, you would like a thicker trunk for the informal upright then another year, or even more, of free growth could only help.

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

Norm,

Well when the squirrels chewed at the base of this tree scarring it, I realized the base will no longer be suitable for a broom. I really don't know what I will do with the base its really up in the air. Maybe I'll just put it in the ground and forget about it for a while.

I think now I will definitely leave the leader on for another year. I do plan on making a smaller broom out of it but not as small as the one you recently posted. I'm really looking toward creating mostly shohin trees. I've really taken a liking to the idea. They take less time and less space. I think the less time part is what really got me. I like that you can hold them easily in your hand and view them at all angles .

Tom

[constantstaticx3]

Well this tree blew over in a storm and the leader broke off . Looks like I won't be layering it next year. My dad is the one that found it and he threw away the top so I don't have the chance to root it. O well, I'm still deciding what to do with it. I think I may ground layer the base chop it back a little and wait for the roots to develop. Then I think I can still make a small broom out of it, it just wont be perfect but I think it may be better that way.

Tom

[Gnome]

Tom,

So the vermin ruined the base and now the top is damaged, this tree has had it pretty rough so far. Is there still enough undamaged trunk to work with?

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

Not really but I think the trunk will be very aged looking in a short amount of time and I may just go for the broom style anyway just for kicks. I think I may start the ground layer now so it can be worked on sooner. I think this tree will be one of those that doesn't look like anything now but will wow me one day.

Tom

[constantstaticx3]

Its been a couple weeks now since I started to ground layer this tree and it already has a callous and should throw some roots out soon. I can only really get a look at it from one angle so it may already have some roots. Just to be safe I will leave this until next year before I remove it.

Tom

[Gnome]

Tom,

Make sure to let everyone know how it goes. It may surprise you, mine did.

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

Roots confirmed! There are two that I could see and they are quite large in size already. They have that brownish tinge to them. Oddly they are growing up instead of down but since they are so flexible that can be fixed when I remove it. Either way I will probably wait till the end of August before I remove it. I did a JM as well and it has plenty of roots too.

Looks like my first two air layer attempts will be successful.

Tom

[alisios]

That's good news Tom! Please post some pictures if you get a chance. This is a technique I'd like to try in the future.

[constantstaticx3]

Ill try but it will be hard to get a good pic that you can see.

Tom

[Gnome]

Tom,

It sounds like you are off to a good start. If you decide to remove the layer this year I have a few suggestions for you.

Keep the layer in a fairly sheltered location for some time, Probably the remainder of the season. I had some trouble with mine in that I moved it back to full sun too soon. The high temperature of the soil led me to water more than I should have in an attempt to maintain a reasonable temperature in the pot.

Make sure not to over-pot it, use a pot that accommodates the roots but don't go too big. I made this mistake as well. I had such a nice spread of new roots I though I would be OK with the size I used but the tender roots were more vulnerable than I expected.

All of this, the large pot, the wet soil and the high soil temperatures caused some rot to occur to the tender new roots. I was exploring the soil a few days ago and discovered soft roots and root sheaths that were slipping from their cores.

All of this led me to do an emergency re-potting into a smaller pot and have the tree in the shade of some full sized trees. I have new buds forming so I have hopes that the tree will survive but I probably lost my 360 degree roots.

Also if you do separate it make sure to provide extra protection this winter. I lost one of my first layers the first winter because I was foolish enough to leave it outside with other more established plants.

Learn from my mistakes, good luck.

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

Thankyou very much for the tips. I'll follow all of them. It is already in a pretty sheltered spot but I'll make it even better. I'll bring it into my garage for the winter just like my other trees. I'll keep you up to date on its progress.

Tom

[Gnome]

Tom,

It is already in a pretty sheltered spot but I'll make it even better

From your response it is unclear if you already severed the layer. While the layer was in progress I kept my Zelkova where I always have in the past, in full sun. It is after I separated it that I made the mistake of returning it to full sun too soon.

Norm

[constantstaticx3]

Sorry, no I did not separate it yet...I wont for a while. I was saying the spot it is in is pretty sheltered (ran out of space in my other spot). Its kinda in my reject section.

I understood what you meant.


Tom