How do seeds react in late autumn ?

[David23]

Hi I have always taken cuttings in my life till now and frowned upon seed sowing unless for bedding plants. Needless to say I need to learn that its fun and interesting. I like to find out peoples experiences and have thought about many things that I have never really got clear in my own mind. I bought a book or two also and have read this that and the other.

Spring would be best for most seeds to sow them.

I am trying to figure whether I can sow in winter. Bear with me on this one !-

I have been reading a link on germination on the internet which is very good with sowing tables treatments and advice and all sorts of things Its here if you are intrigued http://theseedsite.co.uk

It shows that it can also often be good to sow in winter perhaps under a shelf being best with sides and back closed off. This is not just for alpines but hardy perennials interestingly.

So the front of the shelf open and exposed to the elements with covers behind and at the sides. Can they still really come up in the winter or is this just a cold treatment so there sure to come up in spring earlier than normal ?

What I am trying to achieve is an earlier germination perhaps 2-3 weeks before they'd normally come up in spring by using the winter sowing and then wipping them into the cold greenhouse. Hopefully they would then be germinated and starting to grow in february/march.

Would some seeds which do not want a winter cold treatment outside(under shelves) rot away , is this a problem ?

One final question. I here a lot about propagators, warmth and germination.

Can this be an 'alternative' to cold treatment working on the seed coat for emergence or is it to bring warmth to the spring soil conditions for germination?

Does this mean most seeds do not want a cold treatment as only warmer soil works for them in the spring with day length. The latter may be the answer most people give ?

Thanks all , hope this is not all to daunting.

[rainbowgardener]

It depends on WHAT seeds. Each kind of seed has it's own special requirements for germination. Cold hardy perennial flowers, like coreopsis, coneflower, bee balm, black eyed susans, can generally be planted from seed outdoors in fall, but that just means they will come up a little earlier in spring, it doesn't mean they will grow in winter.

[digitS']

Absolutely as RainbowGardener says: it depends on plant species.

That is true with the somewhat protected environment that is used in what is called wintersowing. I am a non-authority because I don't feel that I have sufficient winter sunlight to take much advantage of this method. But, I've listened to friends in Colorado who have the winter cold but much more sun. They have mixed results. Some years, things go well.

Here is more information on wintersowing. Look at the choices that may be available to use in this method. Then, I suggest, give some thought to your available sunlight during those months of the year.

WinterSown.Org.

Steve

[David23]

That's a great winter sowing link. I have only read the titles and intro on the site. I will have a look in detail. Thanks very much. I have colour highlighted some questions below if you could give me your opinion it would be great. Thanks for your help !

I live in the UK. I can put them in an open south facing position to get as much UK light as possible. Is this what your a saying ? Is that to much light ?

I left a link above which shows the hardy perennials I am talking about in there sowing tables for winter. I was referring to using this table on the website to select the winter recommended ones. I might not have made that clear. Its worth a look its an amazing site.

I will have a look at the winter sowing techniques from your link and the list they recommended. I should get good results doing this. I also have the royal horticultural society seed book on compost conditions , sand , loam, peat etc etc. for each variety and type.

I need to decide which protective method to use. I am not sure whether I should leave the front open or use some sort of zipper grow house to bring the front down when its below -5 degrees that a rough guess, not sure ?

Thanks very much.

[digitS']

David, does this page have the links to those perennials you are thinking of planting: (click)

You will notice the expected days to germination depending on the season. It is a long wait for some of those that sown in the autumn & winter.

Mostly, as I understand it, the gardeners at wintersowing.org use containers that are open at the top. One of those tiny greenhouses that is left open would probably amount to the same sort of thing. The soil, seed and seedling would be a little warmer than if just left in the open. Closing something like that might bake things on a real sunny day! So, that isn't done.

The UK doesn't have a lot of sun. The entire country is located farther north than ALL of the contiguous United States - for an American perspective. That means you have very short winter days. Then there are those famous cloudy UK skies. . .

I just haven't felt that I'd be getting more than a couple weeks jump on the growing season - at best. But, that is here where winter lingers . . . and lingers. And, where winter temperatures often drop all the way down to a -25°C. As well, I have a greenhouse I can "fire up" about the 1st of March. So, I haven't tried wintersowing.

Steve

[David23]

Do you think a full light position is good given our Uk day length and higher temperature in winter. We have an average 5 degrees C in winter. Some days may creep up a bit in temp. It can also be as bad as -7 if we are very unlucky. -10 the odd day but pretty rare.

Thanks for all the info and answering the questions. Very informative on the inside sheltering.

The link was not showing the actual tables just the home page. Here is a link to the germination tables as they call them I think-
http://theseedsite.co.uk/list10.html .

You will see the figures for UK winter outdoor sowing. I take it it is referring to the number that come up a couple of weeks prior to spring (approx)
Do you think I am interpreting it correctly ? I normally grow from cuttings so have poor knowledge

Thanks for the help. I better get reading that winter sowing site.

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[soil]

try doing research on individual plants of your interest, rather than looking for lists of what to plant when. once you know the plant and its characteristics you will know when and where is best no matter where you are. you will learn more, your plants will be happier and so will you when you see them thriving.

[digitS']

David, I do think that a full sun location would be best for wintersowing.

If you click the "Back to Germination Main Page" on your linked table, you will see: "In the tables in this section, the number indicates the number of days from sowing to first germination." My emphasis.

So, on the table you linked, Delphinium ajacis seed sown outdoors during the winter required 55 days to germinate for the gardener. He/she does not tell us what day, December 21st to March 21st, that the seed was sown. I think that would be awfully important information.

You can see here (Cooperative Extension, The University of Arizona), at a warm soil temperature of 55°F, larkspur can be expected to germinate in 5 to 10 days. So, cold winter soil is delaying germination quite a bit.

Steve

[David23]

Thats very helpful. I thought it was the number that came up but its days takes then. Thanks for pointing that out I read it wrong. I had an interesting look at the autumn germination in a prop column (propagater raised) . It seems quite a few germinate better in winter in a propagator than autumn. What do you think about this ? sorry for al the questions but its very handy hearing all your points of view.

Nothing like talking to an experienced gardener. Thank you ! See this for propagator example for instance- http://theseedsite.co.uk/list7.html

Oops another quick-e- Can I ask if most easy grow perennial species ( as aposed to there harder to grow varieties) would be okay in plant cells you can get. I ordered a few on ebay at a 2.5cm plug depth. Had it have been 2 cm or less it may have been no good perhaps.

Much appreciated !

[David23]

Thanks I think I will go down the propagator root this winter. Give it a go. I would then no if its possible to germinate in winter with heat as the main factor. I was going to use a propagator (heated) , not boiling hot , with a second covering also over the seeds. I think its termed double protection. Should be interesting to see the results. Will let you know what happens. I know i should be doing spring really but I like the challenge and could find results for all seasons by doing this test. I appreciate your advice as it so handy to know what others do and also internationally too. It of course is plant dependant so I will use his table. Many germinate with in 1 month in winter with double protection and heat(what the website said). He used a container heated and another protective lid over it. this is the same as the propagator and and a lid pretty much. I found that particularly interesting since otherwise you have got 'no chance'. It is a lot of effort I suppose but interesting. It might be there a many different views on this one subject.

Thanks anyway!

[applestar]

Hi joining the discussion late. I have yet to actually try the wintersowing techs using tubs, etc. though I've researched them.

What I HAVE done is a lazy gardener's method -- pot up seeds in fall that need cold stratification and set them out under trees out of heavy rains, etc that might wash them out. I've grown apple pips, peach pits and acorns, comfrey, echinacea, milkweed, etc. this way.

[digitS']

Just getting back to this forum . . .

The gardener in your links says that the "propagator" he/she uses amounts to "seeds sown in pots of compost and kept inside in a covered plastic container with bottom heat." That might mean under lights but it doesn't seem to be clear on that.

I put seed in containers with starting mix on top my refrigerator. It is above 20ºC at all times up there even when overnight, the room temperature may be closer to 15 or 16ºC.

These are clear plastic containers and they have a lid. There is no grow light so I have to check for germination a couple times each day so that don't stretch, seeking light. They are moved to a south window where they will stay for a few days until being moved into a heated greenhouse.

Covered containers outdoors would also have to be watched carefully so that the heat of the sun doesn't cook the sprouting seed and seedlings.

Steve

[applestar]

Covered containers outdoors would also have to be watched carefully so that the heat of the sun doesn't cook the sprouting seed and seedlings.

Yeah, that was my thought too and one of the reasons I haven't actually tried it yet....

[David23]

That sounds good. I think this is denoted on his website by the IN= being Inside. I had a look at what prop= on the next page also. In detail he says this-

When I sow seeds in the Propagator, I put the pots in a seed tray that has a heated element in the bottom as well as a plastic cover. Sometimes, in the winter, if the Propagator is full, I stand the covered seed tray on top of the boiler, which also provides bottom heat.

So a greenhouse propagator with warming cables I take it and a further lid as protection over a seed tray. Are you saying this amounts to the same thing from your answers before ? may be with the definition above it changes things. Overall there is better germination with a propagator, or a least from his weekly figures and comparing it with a house inside. Very interesting what he managed in winter. About one third can be done in winter from the website tables in a propagator.

Another quickie to fill in the gaps in my mind- On a warmer day in full sun in winter , still 10 degrees outside , 15 degrees in greenhouse will I get burning and should I pop a white sheet over the top. This is a UK winter scenario. I'd say yes as I grow cuttings in the shade often for example. Have not done seeds really though.

Thanks.

What you are all saying is very helpful. I am just filling in the gaps so I can see how it all works together.

Much appreciated.

[digitS']

I am not very clear as to what he means on the website but he may be available to answer your questions.

The covers for the containers I use indoors are just there to conserve soil moisture.

15°C is certainly not too warm for any seedling that I can think of - even if it is sitting in the direct sunlight.

Warmth and light should be somewhat balanced. In other words, if there is little light - too much warmth will just be a further encouragement for legginess. If there is little light, cool temperatures are best but, of course, growth in minimal.

Steve