Aerated Compost Tea

[tedln]

Scott,

I just purchased 6 cubic yards of sawdust (fines and chips) mixed with horse manure and urine. It has alread aged about one year and will be 18 months old when I use it in the spring of 2010. Will that work for the compost for the fungal tea? Will the horse manure and urine inhibit the other properties of the wood compost?

Ted

[stella1751]

HG wrote:

My favorite fungal compost? A pile of fine wood chips, aged a year or more. Start yours today...

How odd is that? I went to the local livestock feed store, seeking alfalfa pellets, and came home with a 50# bag of those, a 50# bag of alfalfa cubes (for the compost bin), and a package of wood-chip livestock bedding. So, I just stick some of those in a pile somewhere? Should I add anything to them or just let them decay away?

I've been using kelp meal every other feeding and corn meal (or flour) every feeding. I'll look up humic acids and fish hydrolysate; I don't think we have any yucca, soapwort, or aloe up here. However, a person can buy aloe at the plant store, I think.

Thanks!

Oh. Here's something interesting I have discovered, long as I'm back on this thread: Plants are crazy for alfalfa pellets, but I don't get a good head of foam on the top of pots. When I'm diluting it with water in a jug, it bubbles up nicely, but there's not that standard golden molasses foam in the tea pot

[The Helpful Gardener]

Hey Ted,

The urine and bacterial components from manures will balance this compost so it would NOT be a fungal compost per se, but it will be a fine balanced compost, and that ain't bad...

Fungal is best for trees and shrubs, balanced is good for veggies and flowers and SLIGHTLY bacterial is good for lawns and grass. Remember Nature is always trying to move from bacterial to fungal; that is the process of natural succession. Highly bacterial soils favor weeds, so obviously we don't want to go there. Moderation in ALL things... even the fungal recipe will support SOME bacteria, as would a bacterial recipe (heavy on mollasses and fish) also support some fungii. Most plants need both to some degree, but evergreen needled plants are almost entirely fungal (taiga forest is 99 to 1 fungal to bacterial) for example. How you add to your tea would make it more or less fungal, but you may need nothing else for your crop. Teas should be crop specific, or a simple balanced tea covers all bases...

HG

[top_dollar_bread]

I noticed in the thread that the three products mentioned most often were molasses, alfalfa pellets; and composted manure. My local farm and ranch supply store has all of it, but the molasses is in a granular form rather than a liquid form. Is the granular form the referenced product for the teas?

I also noticed the amounts of most products used in a five gallon batch of tea are modest. They seem to be measured in a few table spoons per five gallons. I was wondering if the quantities can be increased with more aeration for a longer period resulting in a more potent concentrate. I would of course dilute it more when used.

Ted

granulars work fine or you can just smash them down to powder.
And yes you can increase the quantities of ingredients, just be sure its aerated properly and keep your nose out for smells. Good tea should smell sweet and fresh, when it starts to smell some thing is off balance and you probably added to much food.
1-2TBSP of amendments to a gal is what I recommend for problem free, balance tea. you can find witch ingredient helps witch microbes in page 1 or 2 of this thread

HG
thanks for the info on the milk, oh and is mushroom compost a good fungi compost?? I don't know about other gardeners but mushroom compost IMO really is some outstanding stuff!! I believe it may be the fungal microbes that could be its claim to fame.

[stella1751]

The Helpful Gardener wrote: ANYBODY can make a bacerial tea; fungal tea is the real trick. The godd Dr. Ingham likes humic acids . . .

I just ordered the following from wormsway.com. It's called SaferGro Humax and is described as follows:

"Listed by the Organic Materials Review Institute (OMRI), Humax all-purpose additive encourages nutrient uptake, enhances nutrient availability, increases the water holding capacity of soil, and promotes overall plant growth. Humax concentrated liquid humic acid, known as the black gold of agriculture, is extracted from natural deposits of leonardite. Add Humax to a hydroponic nutrient solution or apply it to soil."

Once it arrives I will be replacing my corn flour with this, right? How much does anyone recommend I use? Like 5 Tbsp?

Thanks! Oh. I ordered some Peruvian Seabird Guano--it was on sale

Another question: I only purchased products that said, as above, "listed by the Organic Materials Review Institute." I translated that to mean certifed organic.

[top_dollar_bread]

stella the bottle should give directions on how to use
if not add 1-2 TBSP to the gal
I sure do wish you had PM'd me on humic acids, cus I know of a product that is very well known for its superb combined ingredients..
its called liquid karma, and this stuff rocks!!
you can use on seedlings or through any stage of growth, and it works extremely well in tea's, it contains humic acids and other very well put together ingredients that will benefit our tea's. (look it up, its got a good rep)
[url]https://www.rosemania.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/product57.html[/url]

the EN EA I mentioned earlier is another great product, contains humic acid but also works as a inoculant, making are tea's more populated with beneficials including fungi!!
[url]https://health.bigelbach.com/333750-Earth-Nectar-Earth-Ambrosia-EN-EA-Two-Part-Plant-Invigoration-Mixture-32-fl-oz-each-HY/flypage.html[/url]
ther are other inoculants as well on worms way, these will add live beneficial microbes, like fungi and bacteria and are good products for tea brewers..
compost can have these but inoculants guarantee’s them..

by the way, I have a side by side test going on with peppers
one is grown with ACT the other with water, guess who's doing better??
I also will be posting guano recipes, with pictures..
when I get everything together..ill post
trying to keep this thread alive!!

[stella1751]

TDB wrote:

I sure do wish you had PM'd me on humic acids, cus I know of a product that is very well known for its superb combined ingredients..

I bookmarked it for next spring, TDB. I would have wanted to try this Safegro Humax, anyway And, in my naive North Dakota heart, I keep thinking that other stuff will come, that I did not get ripped off, that I simply bought from a Mom and Pop operation that's not big on communications. If so, I've spent plenty this month

Today I will start a pot using the old recipe. I have some old rainwater I need to use up because I do believe we might get more rain today! I've been putting a little gypsum at the bottom of the rainbarrel and rinsing my compost buckets and tools out in the water, so I want to start out fresh. When this stuff comes, and I will be hoping it gets here by Thursday, I will make up a batch using this and the seabird guano.

TDB also wrote:

by the way, I have a side by side test going on with peppers
one is grown with ACT the other with water, guess who's doing better??

My peppers may well be the plant to have responded the most enthusiastically to this ACT. Remember how in an earlier posting I told you I was seeing tons of new growth two days after each dosing? Well, that's pretty much been the story all summer. Lately I've been wondering whether the Looky-Lou's driving slowly past are there for the tomatoes or for the peppers. They are now 30" tall and covered with hot cherry peppers that have just started to change color. These are very happy peppers

[gixxerific]

I know you all use compost among other things. But what about semi fresh manure. I have been wanting to make come ACT but have no finished 'compost'. I do have some semi fresh manure that I spread on my garden last week. Would that work? I tilled it in the soil a put down a thick bed of grass on top.

My compost might be a bit before it's done. So unless I go buy some which I plan to do just not until maybe next month.

Thanks

[stella1751]

I'm using composted manure in mine, Gix. (I started this thread because I wanted to hit my front squash with a rapid-release of nitrogen. From small desires come big rewards ) It cost me about $2.50 for a bag at Ace Hardware, and I'm still using the same bag after countless pots of tea. I have heard that fresh manure can burn the plants' roots. TDB?

BTW, I think I will post before and after photos of my peppers if the sun comes out today. You will be amazed! Naturally, soil prep plays a big role, and I did put peas in this bed last year, but I don't believe I've ever seen peppers--my favorite of all veggies to grow--respond this quickly to anything I've done in the past.

[stella1751]

See whether you think the difference is as striking as I think it is. These photos are 27 days apart. I started using ACT four days before the first shot.

My hot cherry peppers on July 27:

[img]https://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy292/mitbah/Peppers.jpg[/img]

My hot cherry peppers on August 23:

[img]https://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy292/mitbah/peppers_2.jpg[/img]

What do you think? Am I imagining that this is really extraordinary growth? They are also producing like crazy

[gixxerific]

Holy moly that is one BIG jump there Stella. Nice

So you are making it with just a bag of manure compost bought at a store? I thought most of that stuff would be sterile and not productive. There is composted cow manure and mushroom compost and maybe another type at my local store. All of which I have put n the ground but didn't think it would be good for tea, tell me I'm wrong. and I'm out the door to get some goodies my lettuces are not doing well at all most of everything has went south for the most part.

Thanks

[stella1751]

I tell ya', Gix, this is all made with composted manure for compost. I swear. That's why I got the title of the post all wrong. I thought there was a difference between manure tea and compost tea

My own compost is in too big a pile (the bins I posted way back when in this thread) for me to dig into the center for compost. That's why I started another thread on mini-composters; so I could make some for my tea instead of continuing to use my composted manure

I wonder what mushroom compost is

I warn you, though, Gix, making tea is really addictive. Once you get started, you just can't stop.

[gixxerific]

Alrighty than I went and got some "Black Kow" composted manure. And a 5 inch wet stone. Just wait till you see my set up at the end.

I'm going to start maybe today Can't remember how much compost to put in I'm going to have to go through 4 pages to find out. Another thing is they say to let your tap water sit for 24 hours right. I have a fish tank and the needed purifier for that. It takes out the chlorine and chloramine. So I'm thinking I don't have to wait till tomorrow to start what do you think?

Not sure if this pump I have is strong enough so I might have to get another one. I was going to get a 3 way gang valve and run three wetsones in it which I have the stones. But I would have had to get more tubing which made the 5 inch stone more cost efficient at about $5

First off here the site for Black Kow seems like a upstanding place the reason I purchased it was it is certified by the "Mulch and soil Council"
https://www.blackkow.com/index.htm

Here's my setup sort of thought I had some tubing here but I didn't. But me being me I came up with a way to improvise notice the tubing.
[img]https://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj185/gixxerific/DSC02722.jpg[/img]

Yes those are crazy straw glasses in between the pump and the stone. I actually removed the glasses part and just use one of the ear pieces to connect the outer clear pieces, I'm going to have to get some real tubing soon. Still when in a pinch steal your kids crazy straw glasses they don't even know they are still here.

Thanks Stella sorry so long, no I'm not.

[stella1751]

Your pump looks like the same size I bought, one for a 5 to 10 gallon container. Amazingly, after all the tea I've made, it just keeps on aerating I like the crazy straw, BTW. That is very ingenious I wouldn't buy a new pump or new airstones or anything. What I liked most was how little this set-up cost. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I think my total cost, from start to finish, was $10. And I think my peppers look like a million dollars. That's an excellent return on my investment

Here's an embarrassing confession: I did not let my water sit out the first time. TDB didn't mention it. I think Applestar gave me the heads up on that one. Nevertheless, the first batch was lovely, so maybe we don't have as much chlorine in our water up here.

Oh. TDB assumed I knew I should stir the ingredients. (People often assume common sense on my part; go figure.) Applestar jumped in to give me the heads up on that one.

I've got TDB's initial recipe memorized:

Two handfuls compost[ed manure],
5 TBSP kelp meal,
5 TBSP fish emulsion,
5 TBSP molasses. I've been adding corn meal (or corn flour) to each batch for its anti-fungal abilities.

Other recipes I've experimented with:

Two handfuls (TDB probably said "cups") compost
Four cups alfalfa pellets
1/2 cup kelp meal
1/2 cup corn meal or corn flour
5 TBSP molasses

Two handfuls (TDB probably said "cups") compost
8 TBSP fish emulsion
1 quart Sea Magic concentrate
1/2 cup corn meal or corn flour
5 TBSP molasses

Two handfuls (TDB probably said "cups") compost
Two cups Alaska King organic fertilizer granules
1 cup gypsum
1/2 cup corn meal or corn flour
5 TBSP molasses

Two handfuls (TDB probably said "cups") compost
2 quarts organic, fat-free milk
1 quart Sea Magic concentrate
1/2 cup corn meal or corn flour
5 TBSP molasses

Two handfuls (TDB probably said "cups") compost
5 TBSP kelp meal
5 TBSP fish emulsion
8 TBSP Epsom Salts
1/2 cup corn meal or corn flour
5 TBSP molasses

TDB had many other ideas of things to use. I want to try them all, eventually. I like changing it a little bit each time. I reason that if I change it enough, I'll somehow satisfy any needs of which I am not aware. Yesterday I ordered humic acid and seabird guano. I can't wait to play with them when they get here!

[top_dollar_bread]

Nice peppers stella , I love growing peppers and ACT makes it so rewarding and easy!!

I tell ya', Gix, this is all made with composted manure for compost. I swear. That's why I got the title of the post all wrong. I thought there was a difference between manure tea and compost tea .

you didnt get the title wrong stella, when using composted manure, you are indeed making manure tea!!
there is all kinds of tea definitions
compost tea, compost extract, compost leachate, plant tea, and manure tea

as for using fresh manure, it can be done but I wouldnt advise it!!
manure usually smells, this smell is anaerobic microbes, these are usually bad guys and by bad I mean, can be bad for soil,plant & our health.
This is why we aerate are compost/ACT, to prevent microbes from going anaerobic and help breed & feed aerobic microbes (who are the good guys)

I wonder what mushroom compost is .

I think?? mushroom compost is compost left over after mushrooms have been harvested, some may have chemicals so use ones that are certified!!

for those who wish to learn more about mushrooms, here's a great link on 6 ways mushrooms can save the world
[url]https://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/paul_stamets_on_6_ways_mushrooms_can_save_the_world.html[/url]
had to add the link!!
gixxerific
glad to see you joined us, love the creativity
be sure to tell us on your results!! remember a little molasses is a good add and other soil amendments can be added as well
stella has listed some recipes that should keep you busy for a while, and you can always make your own..just keep your nose out and stir it every now and then....my bad stella!!

[gixxerific]

I like the crazy straw, BTW. That is very ingenious I wouldn't buy a new pump or new air stones or anything. What I liked most was how little this set-up cost. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I think my total cost, from start to finish, was $10. And I think my peppers look like a million dollars. That's an excellent return on my investment

All I need is really nothing maybe tubing if this setup doesn't leak than I spent $5 so you owe me $5 don't ask how I came to this, I can send you my address so you can send check. Thanks for the recipes all nice and organized, I love organization.

I didn't have to buy anything really but I have been researching and heard the MORE air the better. Some people were saying the three way air stones were better for more air flow. Being a gear head I agree more airflow more power. We shall see.

[gixxerific]

TDB thanks for the kind words and the welcome.

Be careful like TDB said with mushroom compost. Make sure it "Organic Certified" There are some places that use assorted 'cides' the bad additives. Another thing is the salt levels can be high in these which would affect young growth and especially seedlings. Though I use it I always mix with soil or other amendments. Do some research on it there is a lot of info on mushroom compost. Another thing is that mushroom compost is considered "used up" after about 3 mushroom crops that is why they get rid of it and start anew. But it is made with a bunch of good starting ingredients, so it can't be all bad plus it will loosen soil.

Great vid link TDB very interesting I have watched it twice.

I will keep you all informed and inform others of my findings as well. I have Kelp extract and fish emulsions I think I will add to the first batch. But what about regular syrup as opposed to molasses is that the same will it work? I actually was looking at molasses the other day at the store but I'm broke and can't afford to buy frivolous things unless I need to. Which I guess would make them not so frivolous now that I think about it.

[stella1751]

Good question about the molasses, Gix. When I went looking for a bottle, I had to go to three different stores: Everyone was out. I told my friend there must be a lot of people making compost tea that week I think molasses is the only deal-breaker in the mix. TDB posted a molasses hyperlink early on in this thread; I read it and it explains why molasses causes the aerobic reaction. However, in another thread, I think I read something about Applestar using brown sugar for something similar. Hmm.

BTW, three things I forgot to mention earlier:

1) I use two cups tea per gallon of water. You should get 16 to 20 gallons per pot. When I used alfalfa pellets, it looked like very weak tea, but I stuck to my two cups per gallon, and the squash thanked me for it. Anyone who is growing squash should know that a tea with alfalfa pellets in it is a big hit with squash. Just don't be fooled by the pale color of the base tea.

2) When I have extra tea, I dump it on my compost. I got this from rainbowgardener. I make a pot for the front yard garden and then a pot for the back yard garden. There are four raised beds in each section, and if the pot goes over 16 gallons worth, I have a bit too much tea. At first I gave the extra to my moss roses, but, really, how much do flowers need? Now I give the extra to my compost.

3) Dregs go on the compost heap. I was dumping it on top of the mulch on my peppers, but I think the soil suffered a brief nitrogen set-back, trying to process all the organic material, and my peppers closest to the dregs became a lighter green for about two weeks.

Regarding the molasses, in an earlier posting, you said you got along swimmingly with three of your neighbors. Back in the day, my day, people borrowed a cup of sugar from their neighbors. I would think 1/4 a cup of molasses ought to work; bring your own quarter-cup measure

[gixxerific]

Sorry you couldn't find molasses I went to Deirberghs a local big name grocery store they had 5 different kinds. I will have to get some but I just got yelled at for spending to much money last week (mostly beer and gardening things). I haven't been working much but it's picking up.

I would think syrup or sugar or brown sugar would work. Basically it's the mass carbs I believe. I also believe molasses has the highest amount of carbs of the others mentioned which is probably why it is preferred. Again I'm just guessing here.

Couple more thing and I might let this thread rest a bit.

1. If I was making this recipe you say dilute it to 2 cups per gallon?

Two handfuls compost[ed manure],
5 TBSP kelp meal,
5 TBSP fish emulsion,
5 TBSP molasses. I've been adding corn meal (or corn flour) to each batch for its anti-fungal abilities.

2. It says 5 tablespoons kelp meal. I have kelp 'extract'. Which says if I remember right 1 tablespoon per gallon of water. I'm just wondering if 'extract' is more potent than 'meal' and maybe I should cut back on this ingredient?

3. Are you adding corn meal in substitution for molasses or as well as molasses?

And yes we do get along with the neighbors we are always borrowing form each other but I don't think they would have molasses, maybe one of them I will ask.
If I have extra tea it will go on my neighbors garden she is my student gardener, trying to teach to the right or more right way to garden.

Thanks Stella gotta go and help my neighbor build a deck, (for free but what are neighbors for. I'm a sucker for work. Be back in a bit.

Sorry it's getting long but one more thing does it have to be36 hours exact or so. If I was to start one right this minute it would be about 44 hours till I could use it would that be too much. I could wait till later to make it work out. I will be starting work again tomorrow.

[stella1751]

I would think syrup or sugar or brown sugar would work. Basically it's the mass carbs I believe. I also believe molasses has the highest amount of carbs of the others mentioned which is probably why it is preferred. Again I'm just guessing here.

I should just answer this one with a bunch of embarrassed smilies. I know next to nothing about chemistry or aerobics or carbs or anything. That's why I was so thrilled that TDB made it simple for me. I don't really understand why it works; I just know it does work. I'm getting the sense that everyone in this forum knows more about plant chemistry than I do

If I was making this recipe you say dilute it to 2 cups per gallon?

That's what I do. I think TDB suggested that amount, but I may have come up with it on my own. Here's a funny story, one I didn't tell anyone: The first time I used it, I didn't pour it on the base of the stem; I poured it on the ground about six to eight inches from the base. I was afraid it would burn them. Yeah, I was wrong. Anyhow, I just use 2 cups per gallon, and I like the results!

It says 5 tablespoons kelp meal. I have kelp 'extract'. Which says if I remember right 1 tablespoon per gallon of water. I'm just wondering if 'extract' is more potent than 'meal' and maybe I should cut back on this ingredient?

I think I can answer this one! I figure I will make a minimum of 16 gallons per pot. So, when I use my Sea Magic, which is a liquid seaweed concentrate that I normally use at 1/4 cup per gallon, I multiplied it times 16 to come up with how much to use: 1 qt. I don't think you need to use the full amount, either, 'cause you've got all those other things going on for you (nutrients from the manure, nutrients from the fish emulsion, even nutrients from the molasses and corn meal). I just think you wouldn't want to go OVER the amount you would normally use.

Are you adding corn meal in substitution for molasses or as well as molasses?

I'm adding both. Here's a very technical explanation of what I think the molasses does: It makes it foam. I got the impression I wouldn't get a decent foam without the molasses. A good head of foam is a sure sign you've got something aerobic going on, and that's what it's all about: stimulating the microbacteria with aerobic activity.

TDB assures me the corn meal has antifungal qualities. Because I'm a newbie to squash growing and because my research indicated their most prevalent problems to be fungal, I use it as a preventative measure. No powdery mildew at my place!

HG, however, suggested (back on page 3) that the same thing over and over in a fungal tea might encourage resistance in bad fungi. Truth be told, I haven't a clue what he really meant--it was all chemistry to me, not my strong suit. I got the impression, though, that he thought I should mix things up, fungus-wise. Therefore, when my brand new jug of Humax arrives, I will be replacing the corn meal with that.

Note to HG: If this wasn't what you meant, please let me know

Note to Gix or TDB: If you have a second and can put his advice in layman's English for me, I'd appreciate it. That Humax is probably on a truck as I write, working its way out here

If I was to start one right this minute it would be about 44 hours till I could use it would that be too much.

Somewhere back in this thread, TDB came clean with all the dirt on time to let the tea steep. I think there was a great deal of flexibility on the times, something like "It won't help it to steep longer than 48 hours, but it won't hurt it, either." I came up with a 36-hour steep on my own, mostly because that's the longest I want to wait However, twice I have used it within 24 hours and once at 48. The weather is a big factor here. If you've got a thunderstorm rolling in, it doesn't make sense to begin an outdoor project that will take up to 30 minutes to complete. Wyoming rain drops can hurt.

I also try to time mine with my watering schedule. If I started a pot of tea and 36 hours coincides with my watering schedule for that block of beds, I will use the stuff earlier or later. For example, my tomatoes and peppers are on a 48-hour watering schedule for regular temperatures and 36-hour for hot temperatures or high winds, which dry plants out pretty quickly. I want to give them their tea eight to twelve hours before I water them. At that time, I reason, they are at their thirstiest, so they'll slurp down whatever you give 'em.

Probably doesn't make sense from a plant's perspective, but even though my daughter's in her thirties now, I know all the tricks to get someone or something to consume what's good for 'em

Sorry the posting is so long, and I wish I could give you a more technical explanation on the process, especially that regarding the molasses and the corn meal/humic acid. For me, gardening is all about the soil and encouraging it to be its best for the plants.

About a month ago, in response to a thread started by Tedlin, I wrote that I would have an average year with my peppers. Gotta be honest, you know, and that's what I thought. Then. Now, I think I could have an excellent pepper year, right up there with last year's Poblanos, which was a super pepper year. I don't believe in coincidences, Gix. I think this compost tea is making the difference between an average and an excellent year. Dunno why or how, just know it is

[gixxerific]

Don't be hard on yourself we are all learning here.

But I believe what the theory on the same fungal treatment would coincide with human disease. Take the flu virus you give millions of people the same vaccine against the same strain of virus eventually the virus will evolve to where it is not affected or as effected. Same with the evolution of a species after a while it will evolve to overcome hardships. Hope this makes sense.

Oh and about the times there was basically 3 times to let it go. I don't have time right now (working on this deck next door) but can't remember off hand but at different time limits encouraged different types of teas. One was more microbial one was more fungal and the other can't quite remember but get he idea. Hope you understand and hope I explained it at least half right.

Thanks for your help, after I get this going I"ll be able to help you and the circle begins.

[The Helpful Gardener]

Wow did this heat up fast...

O.K., here goes...

The sugar thing. SImple sugars are best; that's why we use molasses instead of more refined stuff. I was experimenting with a dried honey and getting good results, but way more expensive. And molasses doesn't make it foam (we see foam on surf and in rapids, right? Not a drop of the stuff in sight ). Molasses is an excellent bacterial food, which makes LOTS of proteins and THAT'S what foams. Yucca and saponins are also famous for foaming; if it get's to be an issue, just a wee drop of EVOO smooths the roiled waters...

Corn stimulates a specific fungus (Trichoderma) which in itself is antifungal. Like I said, fungus is the hard part in teamaking, so I'd skip the corn in the tea and do that directly on the leaves ONLY when I saw fungal issues. Trichoderma can be pretty aggressive and non-specific; it eats everything. I discussed this species with Dr. Ingham as an anti-fungal and her comment was she didn't like relying on any one organism for anything; a balanced ecosystem is what we are striving towards, so ANY dominant organism is a bad thing (Human beings, take note... ). THIS is why I like switching up and changing things; remeber the old lady who swallowed the fly? Let's be sure we don't have to get to swallowing horses, right?

Fish emulsion and hydrolysate are not really the same thing; emulsions are just ground up fish guts and bones. Hydrolysates start there, but use enzymes to further the breakdown and make a finer, more stable product (mineral contents from bones and such is more readily available). Cold processing is another key thing to look for; many of these products (emulsions AND hydrolysates) are by products of other industries, and a lot of the time there is cooking involved which makes things seperate a LOT more. I found an inexpensive hydrolysate from dogfish, but further investigation found they were cooking it to extract the shark cartilage, and it broke down way too fast and got stinky a LOT quicker, as well as being pretty oily, which doesn't help the tea one bit either. Cold processed is better for everybody, nose included...

Timing your tea; sorry to disagree with T$, but over 36 hours has been shown in the lab (Dr. Ingham's lab, among others) to gain nothing and often allow for food, or worse yet, oxygen depletion. In some cases there may be benefits (hard to extract foodstocks), but I have done hundreds, nay thousands of tea quality assessments under a microscope and 36 hours is almost always optimal, no matter what the recipe. Rolling a little of the last batch into a new one can be beneficial and I DID read a white paper about long brewing, actually letting it get slightly anaerobic and bringing it back to widen the facultative anaerobe population, but that's a little advanced for those without the professional tools to assess it and I wouldn't recommend it for home gardener's (if the tea goes bad, don't use it in the garden, dump it on the compost and turn it. The pile will sort things out...)

Stella, not surprised to hear you say tea is the difference between so-so and excellent gardens; it is the difference between so-so and excellent soil, or leaf colonies, or rhizospheres. It is Mother Nature's littlest helpers in vast quantity, and SHE knows what she is doing, unlike the rest of us. So you don't need to know the whys or hows; it just does it the way Mother has done it for millions of years. And YOU helped...

Go forth and spread tea...

S

[stella1751]

Gix, on page 1 of this thread, Applestar posted a hyperlink to a discussion she had last year about ACT in the permaculture forum. The hyperlink to that discussion is

[url]https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9219[/url]

There are two great hyperlinks within this hyperlink that I found to be terrifically informative:

1) [url]https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9219[/url]

This one was about purchasing a compost brewer, but there was a tiny section in there that I found fascinating. It follows:

Alternatively, you can design your own tea recipe, but this will take some testing to make sure you are NOT adding too much food, and reducing oxygen, through the growth of the beneficial organisms, below aerobic levels. Foods that should be considered are:
 a diversity of sugars for bacterial growth, but realize that often the compost itself contains adequate bacterial foods to grow a great set of bacteria. Addition of more bacterial foods can just cause problems.
 Citric acid to help buffer pH to the right level, as well as feeding beneficial bacteria
 Cold-water kelp (higher in nutrients) to serve as a source of micro-nutrients (K, Co, B, etc, please check the label of the product you buy to make sure you are adding micronutrients you need. How do you know micronutrients are needed? A soil chemistry, or plant tissue test might be a good idea)
 Humic acids fro fungal growth, but realize that you want data to show you that this material can actually help grow fungi. Harsh extractants can make the humic materials very difficult for fungi, or anything else, to use.

I kind of sort of remembered as Applestar saying brown sugar was okay. (Hey, if I live long enough, she might say it! Who can know what the future holds?) GREAT list of ingredients, BTW, and verification of your thinking that corn syrup could be substituted for molasses

Talk to me, someone, please, about citric acids. Would this be like organic orange juice?

[top_dollar_bread]

Stella your on point with time of brewing, brew times can help breed a more diverse micro heard in tea’s but brewing for a long time will make a put-to-sleep tea.
Meaning many of the organisms in the tea have went dormant or died off.
(HG your right, over 36 hours, should be done by professionals with proper tools but I have to disagree on gaining nothing???)
explain more please

[url]https://www.soilfoodweb.com/03_about_us/approach_pgs/c_06_tea_definitions.html[/url]
here’s a link on tea definitions, by the great people at the soil food web

A short brew of around 12 hours will favor the growth of fungi, while a 24 hour brew will favor the growth of bacteria and a long brew of 36–48 hours will favor the growth of protozoa. Also that Molasses will promote the growth of bacteria and kelp and humic acid will promote the growth of fungi. Sphagnum peat moss or hay can be added as a source of protozoa, so there isn’t a real need to brew over 36 hours!!!

From page 2 of thread, taken form wikipedia

Here’s another interesting read
[url]https://www.finegardening.com/how-to/articles/brewing-compost-tea.aspx[/url]
brewing compost tea by Elaine Ingham, president, soil foodweb inc

gix
other sugars like brown sugar can be added but molasses is recommended and has been the secret to many bottled organic fertilizers for years.

You see molasses isn’t just a sugar/carbohydrate, it contains a nice amount of potash, sulfur and a variety of micronutrients.
This is the main idea of adding molasses because a balance supply of mineral nutrients is essential for microorganisms to survive and thrive. Micronutrients found in organic amendments like molasses, kelp, buckwheat, comfrey and alfalfa are all derived from other plants and ther for quickly and easily available to our soil organisms and our plants. The micro herd in our tea’s/soil depend on tiny amounts of trace minerals as catalysts to help break down organic fertilizers to a form our plants can use.
Molasses also works as a chelate, chelates (like humic acid), are known for unlocking chemical nutrients into a form that is easily available for soil critters and plants. It is also said that chelated minerals also help gardeners make dramatic cuts in fertilizer application, by locking minerals in availed forms and preventing soil unbalances.

last time I quoted this book, the admin hit me up and deleted it, so I'm going take another route and give out a link on the book “The Soul of Soil: a soil-building guide for master gardners and famersâ€

[gixxerific]

Okay than way too much info I'm tired.

I said I saw about 5+ kinds of molasses at the store, one was unsulfered and there was a black strap version as well so next time I'm there.......

That whole thing on the timing is what I remember, I read that at Wikipedia myself it thought 36 was key for people like us.

[stella1751]

Sorry for overwhelming you, Gix. This compost tea excites zealotry. I suppose it's like being a reformed smoker; you want to convert everyone you see with a butt dangling from his or her lips

[gixxerific]

Sorry for overwhelming you, Gix. This compost tea excites zealotry. I suppose it's like being a reformed smoker; you want to convert everyone you see with a butt dangling from his or her lips

All I meant was way to much info to process since my my last post earlier today. What with all the links not including the ones you relinked which I have read several times. I will get back to it, never fear. I'm exausted and need sleep.

[applestar]

Man was I disappointed, I read my bottle and it said in fine print that this is vinegar flavored as apple cider..now I got me a bottle of stuff I don't know what to do with.
I actually wanted to drink REAL apple cider vinegar for the health benefits and use for brewing tea’s but I guess not.

You can use it to help make GOOD ACV. So as not to contaminate this thread, I'll go into more details in [url=https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=92060#92060]this thread in Non-gardening Hoo-ha.[/url] Make your comments over there.

[tedln]

Hey folks,

I am following this thread, but enough information has been forthcoming that I don;t need to ask questions at this point. I will be purchasing some of the base products listed at my garden supply store this week and giving the ACT a try.

I am curious if anyone knows why the text on page five of this thread suddenly stopped auto wrapping. On my computer, all the text is single line requiring scrolling from left to right in order to read a comment. The first four pages remain in auto wrap mode with normal page width. All other threads are normal mode. Are others experiencing this?

Ted

[applestar]

Tedlin, I think it's the multi-line Googlebook Link. Some browsers can't handle that, though mine (Firefox v3.5.2 for Mac OSX) is working. I've edited it to embed the link. Let me know if this fixed the problem.

[tedln]

Thanks applestar,

That was it. I have Firefox on my laptop also. I never thought of switching over for this thread.

Ted

[tedln]

Can someone tell me a good reliable supplier of leonordite/humic acid. I would prefer to purchase it in small dry bulk quantities for my garden. My intention is to incorporate it in an ACT brew solution.

Apparently there is some disagreement between suppliers of humic acid derived from leonordite deposits in North Dakota and New Mexico with each claiming special organic attributes different from the other. The North Dakota producers claim their product also contains fulvic acid while the New Mexico product does not.

I've checked a few "organic" garden supply outlets with products called humates. The term humates really isn't very descriptive of the actual contents and the packages don't detail the origins of the humate.

I also don't like to buy products which claim to contain numerous benificial minerals and ingredients. In most cases the claimed ingredients are only in trace amounts.

Ted

[stella1751]

Tedlin, I live right in leonardite country, and I don't know how to get my hands on retail quantities of it. However, I found this website:

[url]https://www.bhbentonite.com/lignite.html[/url]

Glenrock is about 20 miles southeast of me. This company says it is about 10 miles north of Glenrock. In this country (don't ask me to explain), that often means northwest. If that's the case, this company shouldn't be far from me. They don't say, though, whether they offer the product retail, but it does say they offer it in 50 lb bags. It might be worth some research. If you think it's worth it, I'll drive out there and ask some follow-up questions about possible distributors

BTW, I was very afraid when I planted my first garden up here in the Casper area. Driving around the outskirts of the city, I saw huge areas of foliage-free, salt-crusted land. I asked what the salt was and was told bentonite. Apparently, it builds up so high in the soil around here, you just can't flush it out.

While anyone else is considering Tedlin's question about leonardite, please consider my earlier one about citric acid. I've been researching this, and it appears that it can be chemically produced. I don't want that kind, so I'm thinking about getting some frozen orange juice concentrate and adding a TBSP of this to my next batch of tea.

[The Helpful Gardener]

Top $, it has been my experience that brewing over 36 hours is beneficial to higher lifeforms (protozoa in particular) at the expense of bacteria. I would rather get the balanced lot into the soil than lean heavily on predators that may imbalance the soil biology you introduce them to as well. The Serengeti only supports so many lions, so let's not wipe out our wildebeests...

If you were dealing with a highly bacterial soil, that might be beneficial, but why is it highly bacterial in the first place? Might be you are sending your protozoa to certain doom if you don't have that piece of information. Without exact answers to dozens of questions like that, the smart thing to do is start balanced and let Mother sort out who she keeps and who goes; that's the way it will end up in the long run anyhow. We can influence a little, but we don't get to choose. This is not about control of environment, it is about supplementing environment...

HG

[top_dollar_bread]

ahh, I see
wonderful explanation!!

This is not about control of environment, it is about supplementing environment...
HG

I 100% agree

stella
citric acid is usually sold in powder form, but naturally found in citrus fruits. Lemons and limes have high concentrations of citric acid, accounting for their bitter taste. Also oranges,tangerines,raspberries and blackberries.
I believe its used in tea's for its chelation abilities??

this is going to be a long one (sorry)

IMO dry leonordite is best used as a soil conditioner or to help build soil health. To me stable humus like humates (leonoridite, mostly humic acid) is best applied to soil were it provides long term storage reservoirs for nutrients and microorganisms.

Fulvic acid on the other hand is what I believe to be better for compost tea’s, fulvic acid is found in active humus or in other terms organic matter still actively decomposing (finished compost/composted manure).
Many like my self prefer to use fulvic acid with liquid fertilizer mixes, where it buffers the soluble fertilizer, chelates it, and improves its uptake for the plants.

I find no reason to go out and a buy a product that consist of only leonoridite(stable humus, humic acid) or even products that only contain fulvic acid, when I can go out buy or make products witch carry a variety of them all.

Humus, humate, humic acid, fulvic acid and humin are all (from my knowledge) transformed from organic matter, humus stable or not can be done naturally or with compost.

Organic mater and humus are included in animal feces
earthworm casting (vermicompost) and bat guano are considered by some to be the best organic manure there is!!
both have humus acids as well as other beneficial qualities

When adding any amendment to compost tea’s, my goal is give the microorganisms a variety of goods to choose from.
the variety of ingredients I add, to me, do just that.
Liquid karma and E/A inoculants that I mentioned have a variety of ingredients that are well known for plant and soil health. E/A has blue/green algae plus beneficial bacteria and fungi, ect, LK on the other hand is put together perfectly IMO
both have fulvic and humic acids if my memory serves me right.

I also don't like to buy products which claim to contain numerous beneficial minerals and ingredients. In most cases the claimed ingredients are only in trace amounts.

To me there is no need to add ingredients beyond small or trace amounts, most numerous beneficial nutrients listed, are trace elements/trace minerals, meaning you don't need much but its good to have them.

Most good reputation products understand this and they also understand that healthy living organic soils tend to hold on to nutrients, till needed, yet at the same time make more with additions of organic matter.

I stress less is best!! Balance is key, microbes will balance soil better if soil additions are not excessive
Organic gardeners still need to remember to fertilize when needed but not excessively, irrigate thoroughly but not frequently and always promote good soil structure by adding organic matter and minimizing tilling.

The numerous of beneficial minerals claimed in good products will benefit your soil with time.
Just follow the instructions on the bottle/bag/box and by the time you find its empty, you can bet that all those numerous beneficial are now cycling in your soil, just be patient.


here’s some info on LK, a product that contains numerous beneficial ingredients, IMO a great ACT additive
[url]https://www.rosemania.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/product57.html[/url]

[applestar]

I don't want to be a party-pooper, but can I just interject a voice of reason here....

Organic Gardening, IMHO and TO ME, is us trying to mimic Mother Nature, to support her, in retribution for the negative impacts and bad choices made by us or others in the past, as well as to prevent further harm to, if not reverse and improve, the natural ecosystem where we garden.

So it doesn't make sense to me -- living in NJ -- to seek out imported exotic bird poop from South America, bat poop from Mexico, fishing industry by-products from Alaska, or deposits from North Dakota or New Mexico. Even the Lobster Compost from Maine is on my ? list, though that one I might let pass.

Of course if you live near any of these regions, then by all means. In my case, I'll look for local ingredients like NJ Green Sand and NJ shore and Delaware Bay fish and crab industry by-products, mushroom compost from Pennsylvania, etc. My garden soil and compost pile are full of earthworms, so I don't feel the need to procure worm casting by the bag when they're already in the soil and compost. If I really wanted it, I could just start a worm composter myself.

[stella1751]

I dunno, Applestar. I disagree. Your theory assumes that Mother Nature creates the greatest, most productive soil in ALL areas. Organic gardening, for me, is creating the greatest, most productive soil in MY area, in taking a slab of clay and using it to create a masterpiece porcelain vase.

I don't think we subvert her ways when we attempt to satisfy all the needs of our plants. We are not working against her; we are learning from her

[top_dollar_bread]

I agree with A_S on using local ingredients to the best of are knowledge but nature is immense and exploring its diversities to help build soil, to me is a good thing. I do my best to learn from what I get my hands on and do what I can, not to abuse what I gained from her.

To me buying a import beer is no different then buying imported amendments. Pick ones you like or were recommended, then kick back and enjoy

it all comes down to the gardener. If he or she wished to use local organic products, it can be done successfully & if you wish to be more diverse well this can be done as well.
Nature to me is one huge ecosystem and with organics, if we wish, can learn and or use from this immense great planet.

I do think some things like EWC is best bought locally or harvested your self. I use to get my EWC from a local vermicomposter and felt happy I supported her cause.

But some are new to gardening, composting, organics & pointing them to products with good reps is a start and local suppliers should be on the top of the list.

Like EWC guano doesn't have to be imported, people do make bat shelters and collect the guano. I don't know any locals who do this, so I buy from imports.
I do understand that guano is sometimes mined in a un-environmentally fashion, so I choose suppliers who are proud on how they harvest the goods & recommend them for those who wish to explore beyond ther reach.
I also explain to many, not to abuse guano or any good thing.
I stress to fertilize when needed but not excessively.
guano is manure, ther are lots, and lots of alternatives but no other poop has the diversity or an impact like guano. Just do a search on this stuff, its got history.

guano is actually recommended to be mixed with water and diluted. Not much is needed to a gallon of water, yet it blows stuff like miracle grow away.
Let alone added to AACT; its guano in my experience that have helped me turn many gardeners away from synthetics.
With organics and good gardening practices, the goods guano or any manure alternatives give,(inoculants) is IMO recycled and kept in the soil. No need to keep applying the same manure(nothing wrong either),but why not be creative, mix it up, your soil biology will thank you.

Seaweed and kelp are from the sea beyond most reach but these are also harvested for food, medicine, vitamins, and biofueals; not just fertilizers. Like seaweed, fish emulsion, blood, bone meal, some rock dust, coffee grounds and other organic amendments are by products.
Some may not be from a local supplier but I still prefer to use them over synthetics alternatives & recommend others to do so as well.

With out things like peat moss and coco coir, many would struggle with container gardening. These are imported but are important in building soil especially for container plants.

I could keep going but its really simple, if your happy with your garden, then keep doing what your doing. If in your heart you want to explore while benefiting your soil, do it.
Its all opinion to me, every one is different. Organics can be as simple as adding compost or as diverse as some of the ACT mixes listed.
Its an art and a science!!

[applestar]

Hmmm. My concern is more that they have to be transported from THERE to HERE -- fossil fuel consumption, carbon footprint, etc.

I think even when she hasn't combined them in situ, Mother Nature has provided with all the ingredients necessary for you to make great soil locally. I want to look first at my own household waste products, then garden and yard waste products, THEN what can I buy. Weed tea, suggested by HG, has tremendously expanded my yard waste possibilities. I might not have to go buy alfafa pellets any more.

[GeorgiaGirl]

Love this discussion! Re: Applestar's and Stella's last posts, I tend to fall somewhere in the middle. I fully believe in using home-grown/local amendments whenever possible. When I started my first compost pile, I trotted off into the virgin woods behind my property and dutifully scooped up leaf mold and the soil underneath (complete with some organic locally grown worms ) and haven't even remotely considered ordering South American bird poo.

That said, when you're dealing with dead soil... soil that's been destroyed by chemicals in the past... there's a lot to be said for bringing in some organic, nutrient/microbe-rich amendments to infuse some life into the soil. And, if your only two options for a particular amendment are 1) to purchase it from out of state or 2) use a chemical equivalent, I will purchase it from out of state if I have to (with the idea that that's likely to be a one-time purchase, as my soil becomes more nutritionally balanced).

My personal goal is to be able to use home-grown/very local amendments exclusively... eventually. But in the meantime, as a new organic gardener, I will buy what I need to to create a richly organic soil food web.

For example, I recently bought a small bag of alfalfa hay for a compost tea recipe, but I'm considering growing alfalfa as a green manure crop. I ordered beneficial nematodes, but am hoping that they will reproduce and populate my property for a long time to come. I won't beat myself up if one of those items didn't happen to be produced in my home town.