rot
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USCC Standards and 137 degrees F for 3 Days

HG,

A lot of useful info in your posts. Thank you very much.
 
What are USCC standards? Is there a link?

137 degrees F for 3 days is a new one. I picked up 150 degrees F for e coli and 160 degrees F for 10 minutes to get taxoplasmis from some government websites somewhere. Does a 137 degree F environment kill the pathogens for dog waste? Cat waste?

Thanks in advance
 

cynthia_h
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I didn't search the site for answers to your questions (esp. when Scott probably knows them off the top of his head), but the U.S. Compost Council's website is at

https://www.compostingcouncil.org/

Another day, when it's not already so late at night, I'll def. return and read the website. "Recycling the way nature intended" sounds promising; I'll bet there are some terrific pages somewhere with the forest floor cycle well explained and other natural decomposition cycles as well.

Cynthia H.
Sunset Zone 17, USDA Zone 9

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That's the one Cynthia... :D

I'm not sure where they pulled the number from, but it is assured to kill seeds, and a majority of pathogens, without damaging the thermophilic organisms. I am aware this is an industry group, and that there is some sensitivity to handling waste streams; they call sewer sludge "biosolids; With more and more evidence of prionic contamination being a factor in Alzheimers, human (and likely pet) fecal wastes when composted concentrate prions (as much a 500 times the normal levels seen in Nature). Prions are only found in the waste streams of meat eaters; it is why humans cannot eat humans, and there is good evidence that mad cow disease is transmitted through prions. But the research is just being done now, and answers are in short supply...

Rot, the only effective composting I have seen done with animal waste is using [url=https://www.casitaverde.com/effective-micro-organisms.php]effective microbes[/url]. The use of facultative anaerobes allows for survival in the rather harsh climate of decomposing dog doo (had to go for the alliteration...) But "anaroebic composting" (they have had a spat over that phrase at USCC; if it's anaroebic, is it really composting?) is definitely a good way to kill everything. EM just outcompetes fecal coliform and E.coli...

HG
Scott Reil

rot
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That's a lot to digest

 
Thanks again Cynthia. Thanks again Scott.

The USCC looks a little too expensive to serve my interests. I could not find their standards and I presume that is because I'm a non-member. If they want folks to use their standards, I would recommend that they make them available free. I've seen the same model in another industry work but there the government used to write the standards and decided to get out of the standards business and turned it over to various private organizations at which point the standards were already established from decades of being able to get them free with no copyright protection. It kind of irritates me that standards have to be bought and are subject to copyright protection.

I'm cheap.

The first thing that strikes me about effective microbes and fermentation is that I should be able to eat a colossal overly sweet meal while drinking too much beer and puke it all up on my compost pile and get similar results. If I'm going to get into fermentation, I think I'm going to pursue something like brewing my own beer. Beer should be the appropriate incentive to pursue such an endeavor.

I'm lazy.

Animal waste. I think I will continue to follow the Joe Jenkins method.

https://www.jenkinspublishing.com/humanure.html#

You can read it for free by the way.

So far I've only been remediating that from the dogs. So far I have fed some fruit trees and some ornamentals. It takes me an 18 to 24 month cycle. I'm going to try to maintain a 24 month cycle. When I started up I was worried I had the space for a 24 month cycle but I seem to have acquired some efficiencies along the way. A work in progress.

I'm not ready to deal with the cats. I'd need to get organic cat litter and the cost is prohibitive. Then I doubt I could keep up with the volume in my current operation.

Taxoplasmosis from the CDC
https://www.cdc.gov/toxoplasmosis/

Prions - nasty piece of work they are. I guess it stands to reason that prions are concentrated in various composting processes because everything else is reduced. I don't believe prions are limited to meat eaters. Mad cow disease is a prion infection I believe and a CDC fact sheet on the matter seems to indicate otherwise also.

https://www.cdc.gov/od/ohs/biosfty/bmbl4/bmbl4s7d.htm

I don't think there is much to do about prions. They seem kind of irreducible and seem to be just an ever-present thing in nature like bacteria and viruses. Is there any such thing as 100 percent pure anything? I'll never be able to get everything off the grass that the dogs leave behind so I will be dealing with it one way or another. The CDC ditty above doesn't address bio-remediation methods. It's focused on the presence of prions in a clinical setting and how to handle it from there. I'm not going to autoclave stuff at 132 C for 4.5 hours.

I'm a cheap lazy slob looking for cheap lazy solutions. If we're going to find alternates to landfills sewage treatment plants I believe we're going to need cheap lazy solutions. After all there are few things cheaper or lazier than curbside pick up and flushing things down the toilet.

Thanks again
 

cynthia_h
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I did have time to dig around just now, and found most of the answer to our question on the FAQ page:

In response to one of the FAQs re. ideal time and temperature required for destruction of weed-seed potential (at https://www.compostingcouncil.org/contact/faq.php ), this is the response. (NOTE: I've copied it over without any spelling correction or other edits, to preserve the integrity of the reference w/regard to copyright.)

"Research has shown that maintaining tempertures over 131 F for several weeks with multiple turnings during that time will eliminate almost all weeds (if you are handling feedstocks with human pathogen potential, like manure, post-consumer food scraps or biosolids, you are required to maintaing that temp for two weeks with 5 turnings duing that time). However, the only way to keep the compost weedfree is to cover the compost with a breathable fabric before it finished cooling off."

I didn't find any other public info about minimum periods of time for destruction of pathogens in animal manures. Given the other info I did see on their website, though, the USCC is anticipating feed-lot manures or other commercial sources, but this would include pigs as well as cattle, since both are subject to CAFO (concentrated animal-feeding operations) or "factory farming" in this country. The FAQ immediately previous to this one mentioned windrow technology, so the USCC standards are clearly aimed at large-scale, commercial compost generation.

It doesn't seem to have occurred to them that dedicated private citizens who truly want to reduce their own contributions to the waste stream might like to have access to health and safety information. :(

Cynthia

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Gary350
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Are you trying to kill weed seeds?

A few years ago I got a pick up truck load of cow manure it was basically a truck load of weed seeds. I never had so many weeds in my garden in my life. WOW what a terrible mess of weeds. I had a giant crop of weeds ever year for 4 years it took me a very long time to get rid of all those weeds.

Set a wash tub up on 4 concrete blocks. Fill the tub with water and build a fire under the tub. When the water reaches 150 degrees F shovel in some cow manure or compost. Several shovels of compost will lower the temperature of the water a little so you may have to cook it a few minutes to get the temperature to come up again. Build a scooper thing like one of those things used to scoop french fries out of the deep fryer only larger. Then use the scooper to scoop out all the compost. Keep the fire and water hot and scoop in some more compost. This is pretty quick if you have a large tub. This will kill all the seeds. The hot water really speeds things up fast it is very good heat transfer to the whole load of compost dumped into the water. Stir well for a few minutes then scoop out the compost.
Last edited by Gary350 on Sun May 24, 2009 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rot
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Strange brew indeed

 
That's a brilliant solution. I've killed dandelions in the lawn with a tea kettle before. You can't always get the tap root intact but if you leave a hole, mark it with a stick to find easier, you pour boiling water and the soil absorbs the heat really fast and if you're carful, you don't kill the grass around it. A couple of years and a lot of elbow grease and I returned a dandelion patch to lawn without chemicals.

At 150 F you're killing off an awful lot but not everything like at 212 F where water boils. 160 F to 170 F you're killing toxoplasmosis from cat waste. A big tub and a big wire basket ought to do it. Maybe enormous tea bags or something. I've got a compost thermometer and I just moved an old washing machine outside so I could extract the agitator basket for a portable fire pit. We just have to be careful about year-round fire season in this third year of drought.

Serious compost tea.

I will have to reserve such a tactic for big jobs. Most of the time I leave weeds and rhizomes out in the driveway to blanch in the sun. Just fling it in the driveway and sweep it up next weekend. Cooking when you've got a lot flower heads sounds like the way to go though.

I wouldn't poach cow manure the weekend you invite everyone over for barbeque though.

Brilliant.
 

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Sorry this took so long but I had to remember where I'd heard this, and just where I could find it, and it turns out I misrembered; 131 for three days...

[quote]Composting. A managed process in which organic materials, including
animal manure and other residuals, are decomposed aerobically by
microbial action. “Thermophilicâ€
Scott Reil

rot
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Six Degrees of Separation

HG,
 
Thanks for nailing down the temperature for me. I must say the legalese put me off. Maybe a lawyer from Kentucky. I can't imagine Jim Beam wanting their product getting linked to compost.

If we look at calories of heat, I have to expect that 131 degrees F at 3 days is a lot more calories than 160 degrees F for ten minutes or even a few hours. If it is the total amount of heat versus temperature at a given point in time then pathogens must be killed off.

Let us remember to turn things.

Thanks again
 

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No problem Rot... turned my pile Friday...

If this seems legalese, it is likely because these findings were simply adopted by the FDA and USDA as the standards for U.S. production, so that was the intent all along... they decided on allowable coliforms and E. coli levels by simply adopting the criteria for swimming water. You know when they say you can't swim because of "criteria exceedance"? That would be poop in the water... :roll:

HG
Scott Reil

cynthia_h
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The Helpful Gardener wrote:... You know when they say you can't swim because of "criteria exceedance"? That would be poop in the water... :roll:

HG
There are a few municipal sewage systems around the San Francisco Bay which can be *counted on* :x to discharge untreated waste :shock: into the Bay during the rainy season.

The standard way of reporting these that I've heard on the all-news station is, "The City of X municipal sewage system experienced a discharge of untreated waste today at ___ a.m. Health officials advise that bacteria counts are high, and that no one should swim, fish, or boat on the shore of ___ until later this week."

Cynthia

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'Zactly, Cynthia...

CSO's, or combined sewer overflows are a leading cause of water impairment in the U.S.. Our storm drains tie into our sewers and when too much rain comes, the whole thing overflows to the regular storm outlets. As we create increasingly impermeable landscapes, adding rooves and parking lots, as well as chemically killing off soil biologies that maintain soil permeability for feet into the soil ( a dry lawn is nearly as water impermeable as pavement to a lot of water) we increase the amount of surface flow that needs to be handled by storm drains. The more we can do to keep our water on site (retention swales, raingardens, rainbarrels) the better off our downstream ecosystems are... gardening organically can be very beneficial here as well by not adding pesticides and water soluble fertilizers to surface flow; non-point source pollution like that is the leading form of pollution in the U.S....

HG
Scott Reil

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