What's a Good Bonsai to Start With?

[MOX13]

Let me first say thank you for this forum, it seems to have a healthy mix of enthusiasts with some good information.

Ive been lurking around the internet the past week as I have become 'obsessed' with the idea of bonsai, and nonstop internet research is probably an understatement of sorts. My basic intrigue for bonsai is the beautiful simplicity of each individual one, and with me starting medical school in the fall, it seems like a better hobby alternative to a dog. I understand that there is work involved with bonsai, but it seems to be something a little more easy to fulfill with a full time schedule.

Here's what I'm looking to try and do right now:

- I am torn as to what tree to start with. The more I think about it, the more I want to get two trees. First, I want a tree that I can start on a root-over-rock style bonsai (which I am currently either thinking of a Chinese Elm or a ficus maybe??? definitely open to suggestions here). I know that project will be a few years in the making, but I want to start now Second, I want to get a decent bonsai to start with, so by the time my root-over-rock is ready to go I will have some decent experience. This second tree I am lost as to where to start... A ficus seems like an easy choice, but I'm not as taken aesthetically by those trees as I am others such as the Japanese Red Maple. Alas, starting new I know I should start with an easier specie.

Currently I have a couple plants in my house that I am tending too.... two are just some generic plants I bought at a local grocery store, one is a venus fly trap that was a gift from my brother, and then finally, my pride and joy, my Dwarf Meyer Lemon Tree! It's only maybe three years old, and I worried that I might have severely stressed it out because I repotted it immediately after it was shipped to me (which caused foliage loss and no growth when I got it in October), but just recently new shoots have started to extend from the branches and new leaves are forming (I suspect this has to do with the winter weather and low temps putting it into a dormant state until now???). This tree is a learning process, but so far so good!

I guess to be clear, I'm not looking for someone to hold my hand..... I know how to use the search button and Google But I would love suggestions of any form! I am living in Spokane, Wa, but will be soon moving to Yakima, WA.

Anywho, thanks for any help, and I look forward to eventually sharing with you all the progress of everything I do

[kdodds]

Ficus spp. are definitely a good place to start. I'll assume that your affinity for maples comes from the fact that they have more "tree like" leaves as opposed to the more "houseplant like" leaves of the Ficus spp. With this in mind, there are quite a few tropical and subtropical trees that can be kept indoors and still have intrestingly shaped and textured leaves. Take a look at Anisodontea spp., for example. To most people here, when they know they want to go indoors, but want something "different", I suggest going to www.meehansminiatures.com for examples of different species that can be used and are available. Not that you have to purchase from them, but they do have a pretty comprehensive selection of available species, with images.

[MOX13]

haha, you found me out, I do want something different, but not because of anything other than my Lemon tree already has that broad leaf style and I wanted to expand my collection of plants a little bit

The ficus benjamina 'kiki' seems like a pretty cool product, but so far cant find that at another website online and meehansminiatures cant ship to idaho or washington :/ oh wells, I'll keep my eye out.

Let's say I purchase a "finished" bonsai..... I can still reform and practice such techniques as wiring on them, cant I?

And junipers..... what's their story? Ive read at a few places they are easy, while other places say they are more difficult..... sigh, I should probably just break down and buy a book, but I'd rather spend that money on tree/supplies/tools than information I can find online

either way, thanks for the quick tip!

[kdodds]

Considering a bonsai is never really "finished", yes, pruning would be a necessity with wiring a possibility. Juniperus spp. are easy OUTDOOR trees, as INDOOR trees, they're near to impossible.

[Gnome]

MOX13,

Hello and welcome to the forum. I'm glad to hear that you are doing some research first. Often we meet new enthusiasts under less than ideal circumstances and are sometimes put in the position of telling them that the tree they are seeking help with is already dead or dying. A little research up front will go a long way to helping to avoid an immediate disappointment.

I also like your idea of starting on two different levels. Very young/small material can be frustrating to work with as there is not a lot of training to be done, mostly simply growing out. Seedlings and cuttings are a good source of material but will take years of attention before much in the way of training can be done. Having something a little more advanced will serve several purposes. It will be more gratifying to have something that resembles the bonsai you see online, in books or in person. You will also have the opportunity to do some refinement and to learn some things in the process.

I understand that there is work involved with bonsai, but it seems to be something a little more easy to fulfill with a full time schedule.

The amount of work on any given day is minimal. Check the soil daily to see if the tree needs water and water if required. That's it! Fertilize the tree occasionally, re-pot once a year (at most) and you can get by for years like this. Perhaps a little pinching or light pruning as well but this is not terribly time consuming either.

This second tree I am lost as to where to start... A ficus seems like an easy choice, but I'm not as taken aesthetically by those trees as I am others such as the Japanese Red Maple. Alas, starting new I know I should start with an easier specie.

You have not stated if you intend to concentrate on growing indoors or outdoors. This has more than a little bearing on which species will be available to you. You mention that you are living in a house, not an apartment or dorm situation so I assume you can find a spot outside for a few trees if you wish. I move tender species outside for the summer and find the plants really respond well. Other species never see the inside of the house.

The ficus benjamina 'kiki' seems like a pretty cool product,

My experience with Ficus so far is still relegated to the growing out phase so this is 'book learnin'. Some sources note that F. benjamina don't back bud readily so the usual procedure of grow out and cut back is not easily accomplished with this species. I have seen some really nice F. neriifolia or Willow Leaf Fig as bonsai. the leaves are much more narrow and gives a different feel than other Ficus.

And junipers..... what's their story? Ive read at a few places they are easy, while other places say they are more difficult.

My experience with Juniper has been that they are relatively easy to care for. This in spite of the annual spate of Christmas Junipers that are doomed from the start. These 'bonsai' are marketed at the wrong time of year, in the wrong type of medium to people who don't understand their requirements. It is not surprising that most die. If you are interested in this species don't buy a commercially mass produced (mallsai) specimen. Instead go to a actual nursery and look at healthy trees of at least the one gallon size or larger and begin the training process yourself. They are not expensive, you will get much more tree for your money and will learn something about doing bonsai. A much better situation than buying an small stressed Juniper cutting and watching it die.

Let's say I purchase a "finished" bonsai..... I can still reform and practice such techniques as wiring on them, cant I?

Of course you can. The class of tree that you, as a new enthusiast, are likely to purchase as 'finished' will probably be a tree that, while it has had some training and a few years growing time, is still relatively young so more training would definitely be in order. Also, as kdodds noted, no bonsai, even a grand old masterpiece, is static so care/training never stops. It has been said that the only finished bonsai is a dead bonsai.

There are some good bonsai nurseries in the North-West that focus on yamadori (collected trees) when you decide to go looking for a more advanced piece of material.

I hope we have been of some help to you and look forward to seeing your efforts over the coming summer.

Norm

[MOX13]

Thanks for the great reply Norm

I currently am living in an apartment, and will probably be for the next four years at least while in medical school..... however, I am a big fan of having a balcony or porch access in all my places of living. Is that considered "outdoors" enough, as long as its not on a north facing, shaded part of the building?

The more trees I am looking at, I think I'm getting a better grasp on what I want to do for my first purchases..... My long term project (root-over-rock) I think I am going to go with a Chinese Elm tree. It seems to be a pretty standard tree, decent hardiness, and looks very cool when done right. Are these trees typically found easily at a local nursery, or am I better off buying a Pre-bonsai tree from an online retailer? (rereading that, it almost seems like a redundant question.... how about I just go to a local nursery and find out, haha )

As for the second project, I like the idea of getting a tree at a nursery and then pruning away at it to help me learn bonsai. I'm thinking either some form of a juniper or a japanese maple..... thoughts on that? I plan on keeping them outside as soon as the temps get above 60 degrees or so outside consistently (or even earlier if they can handle that kind of cold). I know that pruning typically takes place during the spring for most types of trees before they start to bud, so now is as good of time as ever to get into this hobby

I can feel myself getting impatient to get these trees, but the time will come.....

[kdodds]

Yes, a balcony is fine as long as it's not enclosed. With "jumping right in", you have to be careful with that. It's very easy to become overzealous and overwork a tree. Anything you acquire this year should receive a repotting (if necessary) and only minor pinching/pruning beyond the removal of any serious flaws.

[MOX13]

haha, I'll be careful to not "go to town" on my trees....... but a decent tree with a little bit of pruning/repotting will be a nice start at bonsai. Wait a year and then continue on with my plan.....

speaking of which, what do you guys find the best way to make a plan for your tree is? do you just draw it out, or find a picture online, or perhaps there is a website with basic designs that you follow?

The temps just dropped here this week to below freezing all day, so its a no go to the nursery..... at least until it warms up later this week for a few days in a row. I think this is the last big freeze/snow for the year, so that will be nice! keeping my fingers crossed at least!

[Gnome]

MOX13,

I currently am living in an apartment, and will probably be for the next four years at least while in medical school..... however, I am a big fan of having a balcony or porch access in all my places of living. Is that considered "outdoors" enough, as long as its not on a north facing, shaded part of the building?

Sorry, I misinterpreted your previous comment. Yes a balcony can be used to grow a few bonsai. You may have to provide some additional protection for the pots/roots of your tree during winter. I overwinter everything in direct contact with Mother Earth. There is lot of residual heat in the soil, an advantage that a balcony would not offer. A structure (presumably concrete) that is exposed to the air on five sides will lose a lot of heat to the wind and will assume air temperature. Don't let this worry you too much right now, I just thought I would mention it so you are not taken by surprise later.

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speaking of which, what do you guys find the best way to make a plan for your tree is? do you just draw it out, or find a picture online, or perhaps there is a website with basic designs that you follow? 

There are a litany of [url=https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/rules.htm]design rules[/url] that in many ways dictate the direction a piece of raw stock will take. For instance, so called 'pocket branches' Branches should emerge from the trunk at the location of outside bends rather than inside bends, it just looks better. Another 'rule' is to remove 'whorled' or 'handlebar branches', only one branch should emerge form the trunk at any given location. There are also rules on ratio, a 1/6 relationship between trunk diameter and the height of the tree. The 1/3 rule, the first branch should emerge roughly 1/3 of the way up the trunk. There are more but you get the idea. Once you remove the flawed or ill suited branches the tree can sometimes design itself, at least to a certain extent. It is from this point that you begin to design yourself. Here is some information on the [url=https://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basics_StylingForms.html]basic styles of bonsai.[/url]

These 'rules' are really just suggestions of what has been found to work and not every rule is inviolate. It may be preferable, for instance, to leave a pocket branch if removing it would leave a bare spot on an otherwise good design. You can't break too many of the rules on a single tree or you wind up with a mess. I have a tree that used to have a serious flaw but was inclined to work with it. I sought advice and was persuaded to make a drastic cut. To this day I am not happy with the results. Sometimes you have to follow your instincts or some might say to let the tree speak to you. You can't be a slave to the rules but you can't break them all either.

Norm

[kdodds]

Ditto Norm, especially for beginners. Becoming mired in the "rules" of design can become so incredibly frustrating and confusing that a beginner will often be inclined to throw his or her hands up and not follow any rules at all (can be bad, very bad, depending on the innate talent and vision of the individual), or just give up and produce something that looks more like a neatly trimmed landscape shrub or topiary than anything bonsai-like. I agree wholeheartedly with Norm's last sentiment. Look at other bonsai, see what they're about, how they're design, look at the branch structure, and then "let your tree speak to you". On proportions, cripes, I'm all over the place there. I think that, yes, certain "thereabouts" proportions are desirable over others. However, sometimes the "triangle" doesn't work or the tree just doesn't "look right" at the "ideal" proportions and shape. As well, a tree "growing out" can be difficult to see, in the mind's eye, in 5 or 10 or 20 years. So, "ideals" may work for a completely refined tree, but for a much younger tree those same proportions would kill your chances of producing anything remotely desirable. In short, you can't get a piece of three dimensional graph paper and work out the ultimate design for a young tree, it's just not going to work, will be everchanging as the tree grows and does something other than what you'd hoped, and take forever to draft. That's what the tree is for. Now, that's not to say you can't draw inspirations from the designs of others. You absolutely can, and should, look at other bonsai, particularly those created by "masters". In this respect, I can highly recommend Liang's "The Living Art of Bonsai" which has a wealth of imagery in various designs working with various materials.

[Gnome]

MOX13,

kdodds wrote:

So, "ideals" may work for a completely refined tree, but for a much younger tree those same proportions would kill your chances of producing anything remotely desirable.

This is an excellent point. When I first started out I would routinely remove all the lower branches on any tree that I acquired thinking I was 'following the rules'. As I learned more I became aware that this practice was counterproductive and was actually hurting my chances of producing a decent bonsai.

All branches serve to thicken the portion of trunk below them, by leaving low branches you allow them to help grow a thicker base. Also, with younger material that has no real design yet, you never know which branch/es you might need in the future. One of the techniques used is to cut a trunk back to a lower branch and use that branch to create a new leader, thus inducing movement and taper. If you remove all low branches early on you have limited yourself greatly.

On a more mature piece of stock you can begin making decisions sooner but if you have young material that you are simply growing out it is best to limit pruning. One caveat, it is always best to reduce whorled branches to one, or possibly two, branch early on. Leaving more can lead to reverse taper, one of the cardinal sins of bonsai.

Are we making any sense or overwhelming you?

Norm

[MOX13]

Definitely a little of both

At first I was almost overwhelmed just looking at the rules, but I am starting to realize that my mom's saying of patients is a virtue is going to come in mighty handy with this hobby.

Basically, I can see that when I go to this nursery finally, the stock I get for the root-over-rock project should be slightly smaller than what I want trunk wise so that it can grow for a few years. As for the other bonsai attempt, I should get something closer to the desired trunk specs (1" right?) or else it will be longer before I can do some shaping and whatnot.

The stock I get from the nursery will always be root bound? or is there a chance it wont be? I know that early spring is a desired time for many species to prune and shape, etc etc, so I want to get them sometime soon and get started on the basic bonsai techniques.

There is so much to learn for this hobby, but honestly I think the next best step will be to just get the trees..... after that I can build from there, asking questions as needed.

Any other thoughts on trees that I should get? Is there a certain "year old" I should look for on a bonsai tree at a nursery? I know I can always cut it down to size, but how big is too big?

Thanks you guys for everything so far, I really appreciate it

[kdodds]

Patience is more than a virtue, it's a requirement. A dog can learn to heel in a single session, fish learn to come when the feeder approaches within days, but a tree, well, a tree can take weeks, months, seasons, years, decades to show the effects of what you've been doing with it.

I'd definitely work with younger and smaller material for the ROR. For the other, why not just purchase an inexpensive "finished" ficus bonsai. Best thing to learn on, IMO.

[Sage Hermit]

I R Newbie 2

[MOX13]

ya, a "finished" ficus would prob be a good idea Ill have to see if there is any place around here that would have one (do nurseries have those? or is it more of an online purchase?)

welcome sage, glad to see another newbie on here as well!

[bonsaiboy]

Not unless its a specialty nursurey do they usualy have ficus bonsais. Try looking online, such as a google search. But, the problem with purchasing online is that you don't know what the tree will look like. Usualy when they show you a picture, the tree you get isn't as good as the one in the picture. The only way you can be sure is to by the tree from a small nursurey, not a mass production factory (thats where places like wal-mart get theirs). This methode is somewhat more satisfactory.

[MOX13]

so the last week has been just on the outside of horrible for me (many things breaking down, including my car, and leaving me scrambling). So my quest for bonsai has been put to a halt.......

however, last night, I was trying to recoup from another stressful day and happened across my favorite kill time site, ebay. I plugged in the first calming thought I could think of in my head, and within five minutes I had purchased a 3 year old japanese maple tree! I have no idea what it will look like, if it will even be bonsai material yet, but we'll see! I'm just excited to finally start this hobby...... I need something to distract me right now haha

Anywho, I'll be posting for people to follow along with

[MOX13]

Alright people! I just got my japanese red maple tree in the mail and now I'm needing some guidance

It looks to be pretty healthy, but it also is quite tall. Not sure how to deal with that when making a bonsai tree, but I'm betting we can make it work. Its approx 3 years old and seems to be recovering nicely from shipping.

Here are some pictures.....


[img]https://i565.photobucket.com/albums/ss97/MOX13/P4080082.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i565.photobucket.com/albums/ss97/MOX13/P4080085.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i565.photobucket.com/albums/ss97/MOX13/P4080086.jpg[/img]

So, any tips on how to get this guy started? I really want to a root over rock bonsai, so I'm looking for a rock to start that off with. I need to pot it soon too I'm assuming. Lemme know what you all think!

[kdodds]

You'll probably want to chop around the third or fourth branch and use a taller planting vessel, something like a 2 liter soda bottle. Plant the tree roots secured to the rock, and gradually "peel" away the pot.

[MOX13]

Thats kind of what I was thinking, but will the tree be able to survive such a dramatic cut? My interpretation of that is the little tiny branches, is that correct in what you are thinking? I'm a little nervous to make a big cut, and I'm not sure how it will look as it heals also.......

I'm not too worried about the root-over-rock part, as that seems pretty straight forward to me. The trimming down to bonsai size is the risky part to me....

[kdodds]

The thing is that the upper foliage is going to grow most readily/quickly if you do not perform the cut. While maples do back bud, you already some decent lower growth that would be, IMO, a shame to lose. Eventually, the cut will need to be made, and better now, while there is healthy growth already existing lower on the trunk, then later when there might not be. Maybe I'm misunderstanding. Is it your intention to keep the tree at its full height? If so, you're going to need a HUGE rock and a HUGE pot for teh eventual finished product. And, that finished product will not be "ready" for at least a couple of decades.

[MOX13]

hahaha, oh no, I def want it to be much smaller.... I was just making sure that cutting it back that much is going to be okay to do without killing the tree

Now, do I pot this little guy first, or should I trim it and then pot it?

Whats the best way to cut that main trunk so it doesnt leave an ugly scar? I want to cut it at an angle to one of the smaller branches that I want to become the eventual top of the tree right?

[Gnome]

MOX13,

I need to pot it soon too I'm assuming. Lemme know what you all think!

I think that since it is already in leaf you would be better off not potting it this year. If you are concerned about the pot being too small or mangled the way it is I suggest what is commonly referred to as a 'slip pot'

This is when you simply slip the tree from its previous pot and then place it in a slightly larger one and back fill as necessary. If it is rootbound you could loosen the roots a bit but now is not the right time of year for extensive root work, you just missed it.

Whether or not to chop it this year would depend upon what you're trying to achieve. If you want a larger trunk then I think I would hold off on any pruning for several years. Maples will back bud readily so that is not a concern.

If, however, you would like a more feminine tree and are anxious to get started (I've jumped the gun more than a few times) then you could begin the process this year. It's up to you and dependent upon your goals for this particular tree.

Norm

[MOX13]

hmmm, you bring up a good point norm...... I probably don't want to repot the tree now that it has leaves already. :/ see, I really would like to get its roots wrapped around a rock to get that part of the procedure going because it will take awhile for that to set correctly. So is it a really bad idea to do it now, or will it just hinder the growth of the tree for a while?

I'm not too concerned about cutting this tree yet, as I think it looks kinda cool as it is for now, so I am not opposed to letting it just grow for a year or two. However I would like to get the root-over-rock part going now. Any thoughts on that?

[Rosaelyn]

I realize that this post is several months old. But what happened with your maple, Mox? Did you repot it? Did you find a rock and start shaping it? Did you chop the top off?

This inquiring mind wants to know.

[MOX13]

Ah, hahaha, thanks for inquiring

it was going good actually for quite some time........ I planted it over a nice rock, with the roots around the rock wrapped in saranwrap. The root system wasnt quite as long as I wanted it, so it struggled for the first few weeks with the restriction on the root system, but came through nicely afterward....

then came the moving......

I moved twice within 4 months, and I think the shock of moving and having inconsistent watering schedule (had to leave the plant with my parents for a while) didnt help out its health. Once I finally made it to my final desitination for a while, it slowly degraded and withered away. Now, the dead twig sits outside on my porch to remind me that I failed and need to restart it again sometime.

thanks for asking tho! hopefully I'll get something up and running again soon so you all can follow along!

[Rosaelyn]

Well, I hope once you get yourself a lil more settled, you are able to start your tree once more.

[WatchMeShove]

If you want an easy answer, start with a juniper. The are easy to take care of and hard to kill. The root over rock style is a good idea but if you want to own your first bonsai go with a juniper. Pruning them is easier because you go for overall shape rather than branch by branch and also when you get bored you can root cuttings from it and begin a whole mess of juniper cuttings. Also when you buy a plant you are thinking of making into a bonsai, that does not necessarily mean it will go straight into a bonsai pot, once you cut roots the trunk will increase in size at a very slow rate if it increases at all. Also, with that maple, you probably should have left it in a pot for a year or two more to fatten up the trunk.

[GardenerX]

MOX13,

I am new to bonsai as well, I've been expirementing with different types of trees for about 3 years now, but I have to say my very first tree is still my best. I've had it for about 3 and 1/4 years and I've expiremented with it so many times I lost track lol, anyways it's a Ginseng Ficus I've even cut it back so much it looks like I cut it in half "thats when I had no idea what I was doing" it looked like it was going to die but it was stuburn and it held on so I think this would be a great tree to begin with...

Also a Juniper I have a Chinese Juniper now and its doing great outside it withstood 20F and under through winter and still came back strong but it all depends on if you want a inside tree or outside tree. Me I love haveing some inside and outside but thats just me.

I Hope This Helps

[WatchMeShove]

seriously wait till u want its trunk size, then cut it down at about 1/3 full size of how tall u want ur bonsai to be. when u cut it down at a 45 degree angle it will grow multiple new branches, keep the ones you want. bonsai is complicated, but let's keep it simple. When u cut the end of the branch it will no longer get wider, however it will direct it's energy to other branches. WHEN YOU CUT THE TREE AT A 45* ANGLE, it will start new growth at it's cut point. it will grow out but no longer outwards. It will grow but these branches can be shaped.