Just wanted to show some progress of few "special" plants I'm growing this year.
First - TZ's crosses. Transplanted last week into an individual bed... All of the plants of Kosovo X Green Sausage look very healthy, kinda droopy foliage, I think similar to Kosovo...
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-9CCmTdb/0/O/I-9CCmTdb.jpg[/img]
All have pointy fruits:
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-3ZhX4Dh/0/O/I-3ZhX4Dh.jpg[/img]
Except for maybe one:
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-Bfpx6qt/0/O/I-Bfpx6qt.jpg[/img]
Kosovo x (Lime Green Salad X Green Sausage) plants, now they are a little more mature, are showing some difference from the first crosses, little stockier, thicker stems. Pointy fruits with distinct nipples so far:
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-6JMFzGR/0/O/I-6JMFzGR.jpg[/img]
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-PnC75jv/0/O/I-PnC75jv.jpg[/img]
This one was a volunteer my mother found in her rose bed in 2009, I've transplanted it to the main garden, and what we've gotten, were amazingly sweet, firm red pear shaped fruit on short, bushy plant with amazing multiflora... There are literally thousands of flowers and setting fruit in any heat:
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-8WcBXtz/0/O/I-8WcBXtz.jpg[/img]
I'm assuming this was a hybrid once, since the following year, fruits were actually yellow/green at maturity... And due to their texture, we actually been making sweet preserves (very similar to gooseberry preserves for that matter):
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/953110863_LMqvs-O.jpg[/img]
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/953110941_pbkiU-O.jpg[/img]
So I'm at F4 fruit this year, interesting what color/flavor would it be, shape is exact as the prior growouts (and absolutely loaded, container grown and garden)
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-HbHqCmP/0/O/I-HbHqCmP.jpg[/img]
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-VLNj2gz/0/O/I-VLNj2gz.jpg[/img]
Last, but not least, crosses of another avid tomato grower, these are NARX F3 x ZebraHeart, we are looking for anything interesting with stripes and great taste, but I'm also hoping for a striped heart.
Don't know yet what colors are we going to get as a final result, but very interesting looking fruits so far:
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-Xvd25mw/0/O/I-Xvd25mw.jpg[/img]
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-H2CDg8R/0/O/I-H2CDg8R.jpg[/img]
So despite the unfortunate herbicide damage to the main crop, there is still plenty to enjoy in the garden!
Regards,
D
P.S. TZ, I know you growing out many crosses this year, would love to hear and see what you getting out of your plants!
That's exactly right, a cross between two different varieties. These are not my crosses, TZ crossed the first two, and another gentleman made the cross with Zebraheart.
I'm no specialist on the subject matter by any means, but basically, two parents are chosen, during the proper stage of the flower maturity, pollen collected from one parent and applied to the stigma of the other parent (which becomes pollinated), sets fruit, and the new cross is made. In the consequent years, fruits are grown from the seed of this cross... Huge segregation begins, where tomatoes can grow in number of varieties of shapes, sizes and color.
Fruits are then chosen based on the specific profiles one is looking for (color, shape, taste, growth habit and such), and seeds are planted from those "specially selected few" the following year, in hopes that it would repeat itself. And again, and again... Until, that one particular becomes stable, and that can take quite few years to stabilize (unless you lucky)...
Here is a link to a basic crossing process:
[url=https://www.kdcomm.net/~tomato/Tomato/xingtom.html]Crossing Tomatoes[/url]
Hope it helps. I'm sure TZ will chime in as well!
Regards,
D
I'm no specialist on the subject matter by any means, but basically, two parents are chosen, during the proper stage of the flower maturity, pollen collected from one parent and applied to the stigma of the other parent (which becomes pollinated), sets fruit, and the new cross is made. In the consequent years, fruits are grown from the seed of this cross... Huge segregation begins, where tomatoes can grow in number of varieties of shapes, sizes and color.
Fruits are then chosen based on the specific profiles one is looking for (color, shape, taste, growth habit and such), and seeds are planted from those "specially selected few" the following year, in hopes that it would repeat itself. And again, and again... Until, that one particular becomes stable, and that can take quite few years to stabilize (unless you lucky)...
Here is a link to a basic crossing process:
[url=https://www.kdcomm.net/~tomato/Tomato/xingtom.html]Crossing Tomatoes[/url]
Hope it helps. I'm sure TZ will chime in as well!
Regards,
D
I was told that the occsional oddly shaped fruit is a developmental anomaly, and not a somatic mutation but I still save seeds from those if it's something that I want. Also, the nipple can be temperature sensitive. In the parent plant of some of those I got a switch between pointy and plum shaped as the season progressed and the temperature warmed up.
I'm a little behind and still have some plants to get in the ground. I left the hybrids until last so you are way ahead of me. It's raining so my rock hard clay tomato patch should be soft enough to plant in tomorrow.
Other than the two you showed I'm growing Green Sausage x Debarro Gold, which will give either green or yellow small pastes (kinda boring unless you like green salsa and green spaghetti sauce); A potato leaf line from Lime Green Salad x Green Giant with beefsteak fruits and multiflora trait, both full size and dwarf plants; and some fuzzy dwarfs from Fuzzy Wuzzy x [Lime Green Salad x Cherry].
If anyone wants to see what else I'm growing just go to Duh-Vinci's picture post from last year. I it's mostly his stuff with long Russian names I didn't even try to spell on the tags.
I'm a little behind and still have some plants to get in the ground. I left the hybrids until last so you are way ahead of me. It's raining so my rock hard clay tomato patch should be soft enough to plant in tomorrow.
Other than the two you showed I'm growing Green Sausage x Debarro Gold, which will give either green or yellow small pastes (kinda boring unless you like green salsa and green spaghetti sauce); A potato leaf line from Lime Green Salad x Green Giant with beefsteak fruits and multiflora trait, both full size and dwarf plants; and some fuzzy dwarfs from Fuzzy Wuzzy x [Lime Green Salad x Cherry].
If anyone wants to see what else I'm growing just go to Duh-Vinci's picture post from last year. I it's mostly his stuff with long Russian names I didn't even try to spell on the tags.
I did some crosses myself, but the Lime Green Salad crosses were all from bees. I germinated 50 seeds each from several fruits to find out the percentage of natural crossing. Those seedlings that came up different from the rest (I.e not dwarfs) I grew out to find out what the other parent might be. Because Lime Green Salad is full of recessive traits I was able to identify the other parents pretty well based on fruit size color and shape of the hybrids. It doesn't work if all you grow is round red things.
None of the father plants were next to the LGS mother, most were 5-10 plants away, and some of bees had mixed pollen on them.
None of the father plants were next to the LGS mother, most were 5-10 plants away, and some of bees had mixed pollen on them.
A little update, a week later...
K x GS fruits developing into a very nice pointy plums, some faint green striping (wonder if these would stay as Green Sausage has them, or would be more faint at maturity... Will see...):
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-vJNdpnk/0/O/I-vJNdpnk.jpg[/img]
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-L7rHFMn/0/O/I-L7rHFMn.jpg[/img]
K x (LGS x GS) - the one with the earliest fruit:
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-7tZcdnD/0/O/I-7tZcdnD.jpg[/img]
And the one from another plant (later fruit), hart to tell in such early stage, but so far it has a different shape than the others, not as elongated as all the others:
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-PdxwjBp/0/O/I-PdxwjBp.jpg[/img]
But overall, more wispy foliage on K x GS compare to K x (LGS x GS), very long lower leafs, some at 24" inches... All nice healthy plants at the moment.
TZ - I guess by now, you've set most of your seedlings out too?
Regards,
D
K x GS fruits developing into a very nice pointy plums, some faint green striping (wonder if these would stay as Green Sausage has them, or would be more faint at maturity... Will see...):
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-vJNdpnk/0/O/I-vJNdpnk.jpg[/img]
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-L7rHFMn/0/O/I-L7rHFMn.jpg[/img]
K x (LGS x GS) - the one with the earliest fruit:
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-7tZcdnD/0/O/I-7tZcdnD.jpg[/img]
And the one from another plant (later fruit), hart to tell in such early stage, but so far it has a different shape than the others, not as elongated as all the others:
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-PdxwjBp/0/O/I-PdxwjBp.jpg[/img]
But overall, more wispy foliage on K x GS compare to K x (LGS x GS), very long lower leafs, some at 24" inches... All nice healthy plants at the moment.
TZ - I guess by now, you've set most of your seedlings out too?
Regards,
D
All of my plants are in and starting to take off thanks to some good growing weather. Buds are showing, flowers soon to come. I've just finished training them to their supports (four to a cage or on droplines...lots of poking and prodding and pinching). Also have eight or nine dwarf K x [LGSxGS] in the ground.
The stripe gene shows incomplete dominance so the plant would have to be homozygous for strong stripes like the GS ancestor. The parent plant fruit was a pretty red with faint gold stripes (heterozygous). The K x [LGSxGS] parent fruit didn't have stripes.
The stripe gene shows incomplete dominance so the plant would have to be homozygous for strong stripes like the GS ancestor. The parent plant fruit was a pretty red with faint gold stripes (heterozygous). The K x [LGSxGS] parent fruit didn't have stripes.
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gardenbean
- Senior Member
- Posts: 251
- Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:47 pm
- Location: Westminster Colorado
who gets to name the tomato once is has gone thru trials and do the seeds than get sold to a seed company? There are no laws about ownership rights to open pollinated varieties so anybody can sell the seeds. Naming is usually by whomever "introduces the seed"-- gets the seed out to other people, usually the trading network first. In the past this was mostly done through members of Seed Savers Exhange, a non profit organization for the preservation of seeds. People use whatever name was on the SSE list. It is generally frowned upon to change a name. Amishland Seeds used to do this, and may still do it even though the owner has caught a lot of flack for it.
However if going into the commercial market from a breeder (exclusive rights) the company might decide to change the name. Lime Green Salad, Green Sausage and Cream Sausage were originally bred by Tom Wagner (Breeder of the Green Zebra), who made them available to a European seed company (I don't know for how much money) Tom named them Green Elf, Green Sleeves and Banana Creme, and doesn't much like the new names.
Exclusivity only last for a year or two. Tomatofest introduced Marianna's Peace with a lot of hype and a limited amount of seed, offering seeds for something like $5-$10 apiece, but by the next year some irrate tomato enthusiasts were offering them for free-postage.
A large proportion of heirloom tomatoes are the same varieties just renamed by people who didn't know what commercial variety their great grandfather bought at the local store.
If D. and I both end up with a good tasting green when ripe heart from the same cross they can have different names because they will be more or less genetically different (sibling lines) because they were separated into different lines so early in development.
Examples of sibling lines from Brandywine x Cherokee Purple =
Gary'O Sena,
Bear Creek
Dora
Liz Birt
BrandOkie
Laura's California Gold
If interested in ongoing grass roots tomato breeding check out
https://dwarftomatoproject.net/
However if going into the commercial market from a breeder (exclusive rights) the company might decide to change the name. Lime Green Salad, Green Sausage and Cream Sausage were originally bred by Tom Wagner (Breeder of the Green Zebra), who made them available to a European seed company (I don't know for how much money) Tom named them Green Elf, Green Sleeves and Banana Creme, and doesn't much like the new names.
Exclusivity only last for a year or two. Tomatofest introduced Marianna's Peace with a lot of hype and a limited amount of seed, offering seeds for something like $5-$10 apiece, but by the next year some irrate tomato enthusiasts were offering them for free-postage.
A large proportion of heirloom tomatoes are the same varieties just renamed by people who didn't know what commercial variety their great grandfather bought at the local store.
If D. and I both end up with a good tasting green when ripe heart from the same cross they can have different names because they will be more or less genetically different (sibling lines) because they were separated into different lines so early in development.
Examples of sibling lines from Brandywine x Cherokee Purple =
Gary'O Sena,
Bear Creek
Dora
Liz Birt
BrandOkie
Laura's California Gold
If interested in ongoing grass roots tomato breeding check out
https://dwarftomatoproject.net/
I find this thread fascinating! I'm really excited because I'm going to be doing my first cross this year. I'm really looking forward to it too and am making lots of notes about what I want my "finished" tomato to be. I'm going to do my cross both ways and grow out separate "mother" lines.
Did you go to school for this, TZ? Cause I just read [url=https://www.amazon.com/Breed-Your-Own-Vegetable-Varieties/dp/1890132721/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1308592277&sr=1-1]that one book[/url] and that was more than enough info for my backyard project!!
Did you go to school for this, TZ? Cause I just read [url=https://www.amazon.com/Breed-Your-Own-Vegetable-Varieties/dp/1890132721/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1308592277&sr=1-1]that one book[/url] and that was more than enough info for my backyard project!!
Did I go to school for tomato stuff? Horticultrual degree? No. I have post graduate biology degrees (ecology and evolution), with a strong avoidance of all but basic genetics. So you won't find me discussing the color of corn kernels).
Understanding how the inheritance works is one lecture in freshman introductory biology -- Mendelian inheritance (also on Wikipedia--probably also taught in highschool AP biology), but instead of red and white pea flower color, smooth vs wrinkly peas, green vs yellow peas etc., for tomatoes you have potato leaf vs regular leaf, red fruit vs yellow fruit, determinant vs indeterminant, dwarf vs full size, etc. They are all nice single gene dominant/recessive traits...except for the green stripe gene.
You can get all of the tomato information (genetics etc.) off of the internet. Tomato breeder Keith Mueller does have a tomato hort. degree and has the basics of tomato breeding on his website.
https://www.kdcomm.net/~tomato/Tomato/xingtom.html
This is a good page for understanding some of the common difference in fruit.
https://kdcomm.net/~tomato/Tomato/mutant.html
The common fruit genes are (bk= beaked/pointed, el= oxheart, f=beefsteak, gf=green flesh, gs=green stripe, obl=oblate, r = yellow flesh, and y=clear skin]).
UC Davis has a full list of tomato genes
https://tgrc.ucdavis.edu/Data/Acc/Genes.aspx
Understanding how the inheritance works is one lecture in freshman introductory biology -- Mendelian inheritance (also on Wikipedia--probably also taught in highschool AP biology), but instead of red and white pea flower color, smooth vs wrinkly peas, green vs yellow peas etc., for tomatoes you have potato leaf vs regular leaf, red fruit vs yellow fruit, determinant vs indeterminant, dwarf vs full size, etc. They are all nice single gene dominant/recessive traits...except for the green stripe gene.
You can get all of the tomato information (genetics etc.) off of the internet. Tomato breeder Keith Mueller does have a tomato hort. degree and has the basics of tomato breeding on his website.
https://www.kdcomm.net/~tomato/Tomato/xingtom.html
This is a good page for understanding some of the common difference in fruit.
https://kdcomm.net/~tomato/Tomato/mutant.html
The common fruit genes are (bk= beaked/pointed, el= oxheart, f=beefsteak, gf=green flesh, gs=green stripe, obl=oblate, r = yellow flesh, and y=clear skin]).
UC Davis has a full list of tomato genes
https://tgrc.ucdavis.edu/Data/Acc/Genes.aspx
Carolyn - good luck with your crosses, it is fascinating indeed!
TZ - a wealth of information, as usual, thanks for the lings, great read!
BTW, I believe that one of the K x [LGSxGS] may actually be a dwarf. After few days of rain, it is now looking rather different from all the others. Shorter, thicker stem and leafs. I think I'm going to let few suckers develop to see it's "full statue"...
Regards,
D
TZ - a wealth of information, as usual, thanks for the lings, great read!
BTW, I believe that one of the K x [LGSxGS] may actually be a dwarf. After few days of rain, it is now looking rather different from all the others. Shorter, thicker stem and leafs. I think I'm going to let few suckers develop to see it's "full statue"...
Regards,
D
Wow very nice!It will be interesting to know how they taste when ripe.I was wondering,this might stray from the topic a little bit but how do you self or cross pollinate the tomatoes?Right now I'm trying NOT to cross my Brandywine and Celebrity,but there are no pollinators around right now so that helps a little.I rubbed the flowers together,but got a low success rate right now.Any easier or better way?
To self pollinate just shake the plant a little (whack the stake or cage with a stick) or put something like an electric toothbrush on the flower to buzz release the pollen. Best if done between about 10 am and 1 pm because that is when the plant releases pollen. Rubbing flowers together won't work very well because the pollen is internal.
To cross pollinate without the threat of self fertilization you have to open a late stage bud and pull off the immature anther cone with a tweezers and then put pollen on the stigma (and again the next day if possible). If you let the flower get old enough to open there is a good chance that it self pollinated.
To collect pollen I pull off several flowers, pull off the anther cones and let the anthers dry over night in a little pill vial (you could probably do it on shiny magazine paper in a pinch), shake the dry anthers around to release the pollen and then dab the pollen onto the stigmas (I scrape it up into a little pile with the tip of a butter knife). Some people can tap a flower over a glass slide to collect a little pollen and use that right away, but overall success is low so I like to do quite a few flowers and a good supply of pollen makes it easer.
To cross pollinate without the threat of self fertilization you have to open a late stage bud and pull off the immature anther cone with a tweezers and then put pollen on the stigma (and again the next day if possible). If you let the flower get old enough to open there is a good chance that it self pollinated.
To collect pollen I pull off several flowers, pull off the anther cones and let the anthers dry over night in a little pill vial (you could probably do it on shiny magazine paper in a pinch), shake the dry anthers around to release the pollen and then dab the pollen onto the stigmas (I scrape it up into a little pile with the tip of a butter knife). Some people can tap a flower over a glass slide to collect a little pollen and use that right away, but overall success is low so I like to do quite a few flowers and a good supply of pollen makes it easer.
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gardenbean
- Senior Member
- Posts: 251
- Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:47 pm
- Location: Westminster Colorado
Time for a little update... Sorry for less than ideal pictures, so humid outside, lenses just fog right up, so 5 year old P&S beater...
Stripes on one of the K x GS are getting more pronounced:
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-Dhnw4r7/0/L/I-Dhnw4r7-L.jpg[/img]
Finally, on of the later flowering K x GS is showing it's fruit shapes - unmistakeably elongated sausages:
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-2KcKGGT/0/L/I-2KcKGGT-L.jpg[/img]
Has extremely long leaf branches, lower are up to 28":
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-sK5fLKN/0/O/I-sK5fLKN.jpg[/img]
And last but not least, one of the larger of K x (LGSxGS) possibly a heart after all? First fruit from the first page:
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-LHZDBxj/0/O/I-LHZDBxj.jpg[/img]
Another fruit set on this plant:
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-gM5h3hK/0/O/I-gM5h3hK.jpg[/img]
So far, fruits on all plants differ from one another, despite the fact that all plants looked nearly identical up until transplanted into the garden... Really enjoying this "unknown" factor of the growout!
Regards,
D
Stripes on one of the K x GS are getting more pronounced:
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-Dhnw4r7/0/L/I-Dhnw4r7-L.jpg[/img]
Finally, on of the later flowering K x GS is showing it's fruit shapes - unmistakeably elongated sausages:
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-2KcKGGT/0/L/I-2KcKGGT-L.jpg[/img]
Has extremely long leaf branches, lower are up to 28":
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-sK5fLKN/0/O/I-sK5fLKN.jpg[/img]
And last but not least, one of the larger of K x (LGSxGS) possibly a heart after all? First fruit from the first page:
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-LHZDBxj/0/O/I-LHZDBxj.jpg[/img]
Another fruit set on this plant:
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-gM5h3hK/0/O/I-gM5h3hK.jpg[/img]
So far, fruits on all plants differ from one another, despite the fact that all plants looked nearly identical up until transplanted into the garden... Really enjoying this "unknown" factor of the growout!
Regards,
D
Nice, hopefully the heart will be an unusual color (green or black).
I 'think" that the actual stripes (gs gene) are the white lines, not the dark green, which is a normal color that disappears with ripening.
I'm glad that the thin straggly 'bird's nest' plant habit of Green Sausage is not showing up. Maybe the extra long leaves are part of that. I don't think I have any quite that long but they are probably still growing. I only have some baby fruit so far so I can't tell what they are.
I am growing out 16-20 of each of those crosses and I'm getting a lot of variation/segregation. Its hard to get pictures because I have four to a cage-pruned to one stem -- using the cage as a trellis, but I'll keep trying. Your picture of sausages shows a linear cherry type truss, but I am also seeing big branched trusses from the Kosovo parent, and some smaller 'normal' trusses. On a couple of [K x LGSxGS] I have multiflora trusses with several dozen flowers. It will be interesting to see how they hold fruit larger than a cherry.
What type of truss is your striped heart on (strait? branched? how many flowers?)
I 'think" that the actual stripes (gs gene) are the white lines, not the dark green, which is a normal color that disappears with ripening.
I'm glad that the thin straggly 'bird's nest' plant habit of Green Sausage is not showing up. Maybe the extra long leaves are part of that. I don't think I have any quite that long but they are probably still growing. I only have some baby fruit so far so I can't tell what they are.
I am growing out 16-20 of each of those crosses and I'm getting a lot of variation/segregation. Its hard to get pictures because I have four to a cage-pruned to one stem -- using the cage as a trellis, but I'll keep trying. Your picture of sausages shows a linear cherry type truss, but I am also seeing big branched trusses from the Kosovo parent, and some smaller 'normal' trusses. On a couple of [K x LGSxGS] I have multiflora trusses with several dozen flowers. It will be interesting to see how they hold fruit larger than a cherry.
What type of truss is your striped heart on (strait? branched? how many flowers?)
Some of mine are truss-like as you mentioned, some are cherry-type branched trusses...
One of the K x (LGS x GS), non-heart is very different from the rest, leafs are half the length, and it is at maybe 3' tall, compare to the others, which are reaching the top of 54" cages... Will extend the cages later this week...
Heat shaped one, leafs are as long as Kosovo, and flower trusses are almost "hybrid", they are long, and 4-6 flower on each:
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-Xxm4SwK/0/XL/I-Xxm4SwK-XL.jpg[/img]
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-WL4mpvF/0/XL/I-WL4mpvF-XL.jpg[/img]
There are 5-6 more visible fruits on it now, and most are resembling the hearts also...
Other plants, K x GS flower trusses:
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-7x9RNdF/0/XL/I-7x9RNdF-XL.jpg[/img]
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-T8M28qH/0/XL/I-T8M28qH-XL.jpg[/img]
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-p5nB8Qw/0/XL/I-p5nB8Qw-XL.jpg[/img]
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-D8sfFRT/0/XL/I-D8sfFRT-XL.jpg[/img]
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-cHdmmJb/0/XL/I-cHdmmJb-XL.jpg[/img]
16-20 of each of those for you? Man, don't know how you keep up with those suckers, hats off to you, TZ! Look forward to see what type of fruits will show up on your plants!
Regards,
D
One of the K x (LGS x GS), non-heart is very different from the rest, leafs are half the length, and it is at maybe 3' tall, compare to the others, which are reaching the top of 54" cages... Will extend the cages later this week...
Heat shaped one, leafs are as long as Kosovo, and flower trusses are almost "hybrid", they are long, and 4-6 flower on each:
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-Xxm4SwK/0/XL/I-Xxm4SwK-XL.jpg[/img]
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-WL4mpvF/0/XL/I-WL4mpvF-XL.jpg[/img]
There are 5-6 more visible fruits on it now, and most are resembling the hearts also...
Other plants, K x GS flower trusses:
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-7x9RNdF/0/XL/I-7x9RNdF-XL.jpg[/img]
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-T8M28qH/0/XL/I-T8M28qH-XL.jpg[/img]
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-p5nB8Qw/0/XL/I-p5nB8Qw-XL.jpg[/img]
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-D8sfFRT/0/XL/I-D8sfFRT-XL.jpg[/img]
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-cHdmmJb/0/XL/I-cHdmmJb-XL.jpg[/img]
16-20 of each of those for you? Man, don't know how you keep up with those suckers, hats off to you, TZ! Look forward to see what type of fruits will show up on your plants!
Regards,
D
Sounds like you did get a dwarf. The dwarfs look like they have normal leaves. I stunted mine by putting them in six packs instead of 3" pots to save space, and they got some abusive neglect so they are only a foot tall, but yours could easily be 3 ft by now.
I decided that I really hate sitting in the dirt scraping my arm on rusty cages to clear out sick leaves and non productive branches twice a season so I don't mind quickly pinching off suckers as I look them over. For the season I grow wicked thumbnail...like a velociraptor.
I decided that I really hate sitting in the dirt scraping my arm on rusty cages to clear out sick leaves and non productive branches twice a season so I don't mind quickly pinching off suckers as I look them over. For the season I grow wicked thumbnail...like a velociraptor.
TZ, well, that is indeed making sense! Specially after spending 3-4 hours this evening doing just that, clearing lower leafs, on my hands an knees, tying up the trusses, and all the other fun stuff that comes with that!
Early in the year, my goal was to NOT let any plants get more than 4 main branches, but spending nearly 5 months burred in the books for the large medical exam, suckers got away, imagine that
Now that I'm done with it, free time is abundant, I completely understand on how a little work early in the growing stages can save a lot of work later in the season. Your crosses are all trimmed to 3-4 main branches. Dwarf (and it certainly looks like a dwarf now), was pruned at first, but now, I'm letting it "live" a little... Some of my later planting (Polish Pastel, Pontano Romanesca, Indian Stripe, Pork Chop, Cherokee Purple) are all kept neat as well, and as your observations last year, I actually prefer to have then thinned out as such - more air flow, fruits seem to be better shape and size and still plenty, and soooooo much easier to work around them later in the season!
This year's fist attempt to "Grafting" - Kosovo on Emperador root stock (to test it's resistance to fusarium), I actually kept it to a single stem. But the first cluster of flowers actually has grown into a separate runner with a full growing tip, so I'm letting it go. And on the side note, much greater vigor compare to the Kosovo with it's original roots, same soil, same treatment. Will see later in the season...
Anywho, back to your crosses... Extended the "cages", good thing I kept them all, now 54" are double stacked, pruned some lower and internal leafs for a better flow, here are few pics of your crosses:
Shortest K x GS:
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-nS6h737/0/O/I-nS6h737.jpg[/img]
Tallest of the K x GS:
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-vX6dtPn/0/O/I-vX6dtPn.jpg[/img]
All have very similar appearance with extremely long leaf branches, wispy indeed, and oh my, do they like to give off the suckers!!!
Now two what I believe turned out to be a dwarf, K x (LGS x GS):
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-R26dzG2/0/O/I-R26dzG2.jpg[/img]
And a little closer on the fruit:
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-hGWJNCc/0/O/I-hGWJNCc.jpg[/img]
The other K x (LGS x GS) is setting up the fruit fairly well, will see... Still, mos of the fruits are very much are elongate hearts!
Are you seeing any shapes of the fruits yet?
Green, I believe that is one of TZ's favorites, I tend to lean on the Cherokee Purple/Spudakee and Black from Tula...
Regards,
D
Early in the year, my goal was to NOT let any plants get more than 4 main branches, but spending nearly 5 months burred in the books for the large medical exam, suckers got away, imagine that
Now that I'm done with it, free time is abundant, I completely understand on how a little work early in the growing stages can save a lot of work later in the season. Your crosses are all trimmed to 3-4 main branches. Dwarf (and it certainly looks like a dwarf now), was pruned at first, but now, I'm letting it "live" a little... Some of my later planting (Polish Pastel, Pontano Romanesca, Indian Stripe, Pork Chop, Cherokee Purple) are all kept neat as well, and as your observations last year, I actually prefer to have then thinned out as such - more air flow, fruits seem to be better shape and size and still plenty, and soooooo much easier to work around them later in the season!
This year's fist attempt to "Grafting" - Kosovo on Emperador root stock (to test it's resistance to fusarium), I actually kept it to a single stem. But the first cluster of flowers actually has grown into a separate runner with a full growing tip, so I'm letting it go. And on the side note, much greater vigor compare to the Kosovo with it's original roots, same soil, same treatment. Will see later in the season...
Anywho, back to your crosses... Extended the "cages", good thing I kept them all, now 54" are double stacked, pruned some lower and internal leafs for a better flow, here are few pics of your crosses:
Shortest K x GS:
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-nS6h737/0/O/I-nS6h737.jpg[/img]
Tallest of the K x GS:
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-vX6dtPn/0/O/I-vX6dtPn.jpg[/img]
All have very similar appearance with extremely long leaf branches, wispy indeed, and oh my, do they like to give off the suckers!!!
Now two what I believe turned out to be a dwarf, K x (LGS x GS):
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-R26dzG2/0/O/I-R26dzG2.jpg[/img]
And a little closer on the fruit:
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-hGWJNCc/0/O/I-hGWJNCc.jpg[/img]
The other K x (LGS x GS) is setting up the fruit fairly well, will see... Still, mos of the fruits are very much are elongate hearts!
Are you seeing any shapes of the fruits yet?
Green, I believe that is one of TZ's favorites, I tend to lean on the Cherokee Purple/Spudakee and Black from Tula...
Regards,
D
Talking about those truss runners. I forgot about those on first trusses of the year and bagged those buds on most of my plants, and of course the bags filled up with the runner and I ended up having to mutilate the trusses and lost a lot of potential fruit...[so TZ leaves self note to bag blossoms on second truss not first]. The longest runner I ever had was on a Black from Tula, which got abour 2 ft long and stayed pretty wimpy so now I pinch them off after the last flower as it probably helps prevent BER in a miniscule way.
I'm seeing a range of fruit shapes from thin pointy fingers to fat plums. I'm not seeing the "top" shape of baby hearts yet.
Greens are actually far from my favorites, but if you want a black tomato you have to add the greenfruit gene to red flesh. The green beefteaks also tend to be watery so are difficult to cook down into sauce, and a dry tomato (paste-type) is better for pico de gallo/ fresh salsa The only green paste I know of is Green Sausage. Green Sausage has a really good flavor for a paste, but is a straggly prostrate determinant plant. So while thinking about what crosses would be fun to make, taking into consideration what I had growing that year, Kosovo x Green Sausage seemed pretty cool because the gene combinations would produce the following:
Solid and stripes of the following
Red hearts and pastes
Pink hearts and pastes
Black (purple and brown) hearts and pastes
Green-(amber and clear green) hearts and pastes
It might also produce yellows, but I'll have to think about that.
At the time I was leaning toward becoming world famous for inventing a good black heart, and a black paste for sauce.
I'm seeing a range of fruit shapes from thin pointy fingers to fat plums. I'm not seeing the "top" shape of baby hearts yet.
Greens are actually far from my favorites, but if you want a black tomato you have to add the greenfruit gene to red flesh. The green beefteaks also tend to be watery so are difficult to cook down into sauce, and a dry tomato (paste-type) is better for pico de gallo/ fresh salsa The only green paste I know of is Green Sausage. Green Sausage has a really good flavor for a paste, but is a straggly prostrate determinant plant. So while thinking about what crosses would be fun to make, taking into consideration what I had growing that year, Kosovo x Green Sausage seemed pretty cool because the gene combinations would produce the following:
Solid and stripes of the following
Red hearts and pastes
Pink hearts and pastes
Black (purple and brown) hearts and pastes
Green-(amber and clear green) hearts and pastes
It might also produce yellows, but I'll have to think about that.
At the time I was leaning toward becoming world famous for inventing a good black heart, and a black paste for sauce.
-
Runningtrails
- Senior Member
- Posts: 184
- Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:52 am
- Location: Barrie, Ontario,Canada
Thank you so much for this info! I have two tomatoes that I plan to cross next year and just havn't gotten around to researching it yet! Great pics and information!!
I want to cross my own Portugal heirloom tomatoes here:
[img]https://www.providenceacresfarm.com/images/tomatoab.jpg[/img]
[img]https://www.providenceacresfarm.com/images/008.jpg[/img]
Crossed with the original Gordon Graham tomato plant that I have growing now. I have just the one plant that is a direct baby grown from the seed of the "World's Larget Tomato". I'll be saving seed from it this year. Next year I want to cross the two.
I want to cross my own Portugal heirloom tomatoes here:
[img]https://www.providenceacresfarm.com/images/tomatoab.jpg[/img]
[img]https://www.providenceacresfarm.com/images/008.jpg[/img]
Crossed with the original Gordon Graham tomato plant that I have growing now. I have just the one plant that is a direct baby grown from the seed of the "World's Larget Tomato". I'll be saving seed from it this year. Next year I want to cross the two.
Sorry, haven't posted for few weeks, been a little busy with few side projects, but it's time for a report...
No GWR on any plants, maybe next year... Few plants are pure red sausages, with very neutral flavor, that doesn't stand out... But also, extremely prone to BER. They get the same water and treatment as the rest of my plants, but these reds are the only once started BER as soon as the weather went into the 90's...
There are few exceptions. The only hear shaped fruits from K x (LGSxGS) - bicolor, orange/red, smaller sized hearts. Very mild flavor, medium /compact ind plant with tons of fruit. Let's just hope that the flavor would improve in F3 growout, very mild so far:
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-K6msP2n/0/O/I-K6msP2n.jpg[/img]
Three more of the "unique" treats:
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-QP2sBmg/0/O/I-QP2sBmg.jpg[/img]
One of the K x GS with very attractive, larger sized plums are nice, pale yellow/pastel color, with some faint pink blush in some areas, flavor - if I was blind folded, I would say tasted exactly like Lemon Boy... Tallest plant from all, already reached the top or 2 stacked 54" cages:
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-xp4h8GJ/0/O/I-xp4h8GJ.jpg[/img]
One of the K x GS brick red fruit with faint "gold specs", and very good flavor, but also very prone to BER. though much less than other reds:
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-ct6J6B9/0/O/I-ct6J6B9.jpg[/img]
The best flavor and aroma is from the dwarf K x (LGSxGS), and it is Black Sausage. The moment I cut into it, aroma of smokiness is amazing! Very typical to most blacks, purple/pink inner flesh with dark green gel, not overwhelmingly sweet, but rather complex black flavor. Coloration is rather similar to Paul Robeson I grew before, rusty/purple exterior wit green shoulders
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-StM6nL3/0/O/I-StM6nL3.jpg[/img]
So these are selections from these F2 growout I felt worth saving seeds from to carry out to next generation (unless you want me to save some seeds from other reds as well)?
Got anything interesting showing up in your garden yet?
Regards,
D
No GWR on any plants, maybe next year... Few plants are pure red sausages, with very neutral flavor, that doesn't stand out... But also, extremely prone to BER. They get the same water and treatment as the rest of my plants, but these reds are the only once started BER as soon as the weather went into the 90's...
There are few exceptions. The only hear shaped fruits from K x (LGSxGS) - bicolor, orange/red, smaller sized hearts. Very mild flavor, medium /compact ind plant with tons of fruit. Let's just hope that the flavor would improve in F3 growout, very mild so far:
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-K6msP2n/0/O/I-K6msP2n.jpg[/img]
Three more of the "unique" treats:
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-QP2sBmg/0/O/I-QP2sBmg.jpg[/img]
One of the K x GS with very attractive, larger sized plums are nice, pale yellow/pastel color, with some faint pink blush in some areas, flavor - if I was blind folded, I would say tasted exactly like Lemon Boy... Tallest plant from all, already reached the top or 2 stacked 54" cages:
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-xp4h8GJ/0/O/I-xp4h8GJ.jpg[/img]
One of the K x GS brick red fruit with faint "gold specs", and very good flavor, but also very prone to BER. though much less than other reds:
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-ct6J6B9/0/O/I-ct6J6B9.jpg[/img]
The best flavor and aroma is from the dwarf K x (LGSxGS), and it is Black Sausage. The moment I cut into it, aroma of smokiness is amazing! Very typical to most blacks, purple/pink inner flesh with dark green gel, not overwhelmingly sweet, but rather complex black flavor. Coloration is rather similar to Paul Robeson I grew before, rusty/purple exterior wit green shoulders
[img]https://drphotography.smugmug.com/photos/I-StM6nL3/0/O/I-StM6nL3.jpg[/img]
So these are selections from these F2 growout I felt worth saving seeds from to carry out to next generation (unless you want me to save some seeds from other reds as well)?
Got anything interesting showing up in your garden yet?
Regards,
D
Can I send mine to you to take pictures 
That black dwarf sounds great!
Save seeds from whatever you want, they are yours to do what you will (sell to Burpee and get rich ). You may not want to gamble on the F3s tasting better and just try for something better to show up next year from another set of F2s. I figure that 10% or less will be really good. I put in four F1 Kx [LGSxGS] so I'll have lots of seeds (and diverstiy) if anyone wants to play with these crosses next year.
Right now I have 17 KxGS, 20 Kx[LGSxGS] and 7-8 dwarfs going with a lot of variation in plant height, fruit shape and productivity, no color is showing yet though. Even though conditions favor it BER this summer it is only showing up badly on a few scattered plants. Unless they have some desirable triat I'll toss them (hope they are tastelss red things). I'll post lots of pictures to my Flickr page when they start coming in.
These are two promising plants sharing the same cage...hoping for funny colors
https://www.flickr.com/photos/51251503@N03/5940345925/in/photostream
https://www.flickr.com/photos/51251503@N03/5940347745/in/photostream
That black dwarf sounds great!
Save seeds from whatever you want, they are yours to do what you will (sell to Burpee and get rich
). You may not want to gamble on the F3s tasting better and just try for something better to show up next year from another set of F2s. I figure that 10% or less will be really good. I put in four F1 Kx [LGSxGS] so I'll have lots of seeds (and diverstiy) if anyone wants to play with these crosses next year.Right now I have 17 KxGS, 20 Kx[LGSxGS] and 7-8 dwarfs going with a lot of variation in plant height, fruit shape and productivity, no color is showing yet though. Even though conditions favor it BER this summer it is only showing up badly on a few scattered plants. Unless they have some desirable triat I'll toss them (hope they are tastelss red things). I'll post lots of pictures to my Flickr page when they start coming in.
These are two promising plants sharing the same cage...hoping for funny colors
https://www.flickr.com/photos/51251503@N03/5940345925/in/photostream
https://www.flickr.com/photos/51251503@N03/5940347745/in/photostream