Soap or Detergent

[jal_ut]

hit or miss "Try insecticidal soap, or a solution of liquid soap and water, make sure it is soap not detergent."

This quote from another post, but I didn't want to hijack the thread.
My question is: why do you make the distinction? I have for many years used Dawn Dishwashing Liquid (detergent) as a bug killer. It works very well, doesn't seem to bother the plants, and if we can wash our dishes in it, how bad can it be? Dawn is biodegradable and contains no Phosphate.

A little bit in a kitchen spray bottle knocks bugs right now. You have to wet the bugs with it. It has no residual effect. It only gets the target bugs, the ones you spray it on.

So, tell me your thoughts?

[alaskagold]

I think it depends on the person. I personally like Joy for spraying down plants with bugs.

I use Irish Spring bar soap (hung in trees) to keep away moose. Moose and deer, hate the smell of it and the irish spring doesn't hurt the trees roots or the plants around it.

[TZ -OH6]

This has a pretty good discussion

https://greenmethods.com/site/weblog/2009/05/understanding-insecticidal-soaps-and-detergents/

[digitS']

Honestly, I don't know the distinction between a soap and a detergent.

Most people may think that detergent would be used for washing laundry, especially. And, that probably wouldn't be the right stuff to put on your plants .

I have sunflower plants in the veggie garden and they seem to be aphid magnets. Each year, I spray the sunflower patch with: 3 tablespoons of Palmolive Green dish soap for every 1 gallon of water. But, I do try to get back the next morning to wash the plants with fresh water. It works as well as my insecticidal soap that does great on the veggies, themselves.

Dad once sprayed the aphids on his plum tree with a hose-end sprayer and dish soap. I don't know the concentration. Every leaf fell off that tree over the next few hot, sunny days ! Fortunately, the leaves grew back . . .

Steve

[DoubleDogFarm]

From TZ link,

There are a variety of fatty acids; however, only certain fatty acids have insecticidal properties. This is simply based on the length of the carbon-based fatty acid chains. Most soaps with insect and mite pest activity are composed of long chain fatty acids (10 or 18-carbon chains) whereas shorter chain fatty acids (9-carbon chains or less) have herbicidal (weed-killing) properties, so using materials that have short chain fatty acids will kill plants. For example, oleic acid, an 18-chain carbon fatty acid, which is present in olive oil and other vegetable oils, is very effective as an insecticidal soap. In fact, most commercially-available insecticidal soaps contain potassium oleate (potassium salt of oleic acid), which is one of the most toxic soaps.

James,

I believe most of the forum members shy away from detergents, for the fear of burning their plants. Many people quote what they read, but have not tested. If it works for you, why change.


Eric

[rainbowgardener]

Soaps are natural/ organic. Detergents are synthetic, petroleum products, usually with alcohol, preservatives, artificial fragrances, and anti-bacterial agents added. Any of these ingredients can burn plants. It depends on the specific formulation, the concentration, the plant, the way it is used, etc whether it actually does burn the plant. But plenty of people have written in here about how their plants got burned, crispy, or even died after they sprayed detergent all over them. Some people have been very upset that they read something about using soap solution, they sprayed detergent and their plants died. That is why I am always careful to say real soap not detergent.

[DoubleDogFarm]

Some people have been very upset that they read something about using soap solution, they sprayed detergent and their plants died. That is why I am always careful to say real soap not detergent.

Yes, I agree totally. One should be very careful. I'm not so trustworthy. Should one just go out and douse everything willy nilly. No, One should test on maybe lower sacrificial leaves.

Eric

[shadowsmom]

I used to use Irish Spring shavings dropped around to keep the deer away, but now they have a liquid body wash. I put drops on the retaining wall (concrete block) and the odor seems to last and discourage the deer. It appears to keep them from walking over the wall and nibbling on whatever is coming up.

[applestar]

For example, oleic acid, an 18-chain carbon fatty acid, which is present in olive oil and other vegetable oils, is very effective as an insecticidal soap.

I like the idea of using olive oil spray on my edible leaves like salad greens and herbs. The soap spray leaves a residue that sometimes taste awful if not completely washed off.

[jal_ut]

I never spray anything willy nilly. Test a small area first.

As I said, the soapy solution kills bugs right now. You can turn around one minute later and wash it off your plants with fresh water. Not anything in this house with fragrances. It must be "Free" or it doesn't come here.

I am fortunate to seldom have anything bother salad greens. Aphids on cole crops are sometimes a problem. Our nasty winters take care of a lot of bug problems.

[jal_ut]

Do soaps ever burn plants if they are mixed too strong? I think the ratio of soap to water may be important. What ratio do you recommend?

[ameliat]

great topic - it is timely since something seems to be enjoying my spinach - I would also be interested in any recipes that have worked!

[DoubleDogFarm]

What does your spinach look like. Can you post a picture?

If it is leaf miner, insecticidal soap will not work.


Eric

[digitS']

Here is a Colorado State University Extension entomologist with information on using soap as an insecticide: [url=https://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/insect/05547.html](CLICK)[/url]

I see that my 3 tablespoons of Palmolive per gallon of water is way down on the concentration chart. . . just a little more than 1%.

Still, it has worked well for me. Low humidity seems to really help. Spraying plants in the greenhouse with insecticidal soap works very poorly. Outdoors, in the late afternoon, it is lethal to the dang aphids.

Steve

[annastasia76]

I apologize if this has already been answered, I didn't read all the other posts but what if a lye soap was used, I make my own soap and I am wondering if it would be better to use or if I should use a dish washing detergent like dawn??

[rainbowgardener]

I think most real soap is lye soap. It is fine. In the process of making the soap the lye, a base, is combined with acidic oils. The process neutralizes both of them and makes a new compound. So once the lye is saponified (made into soap), it does not exist as lye any more and the soap is not caustic.

[annastasia76]

as long as the lye soap works than I am fine with it, anybody know how much lye soap shavings to use in a gallon of water?? or is it similar to the liquid soaps. lye soap does not suds up like liquid soap does so I don't know if that would help or hinder.

[jal_ut]

In the dictionary sense of the word all soaps are detergents (cleansers) That is what the word means.

All soaps are surfactants, meaning they reduce the surface tension of water. This is the property that makes them useful in killing bugs.

The real problem is killing the bugs without hurting the plants. Whatever you use, I suggest you start out with a low dose and see if that will kill the pest in question. If it does, well and good. If not use a bit more and try again. For sure, the less soap we use the less likely we are to hurt the plants.

I keep a kitchen spray bottle in the garage to be used for washing out containers. The washing is done outside, but it is nice when you want a clean bucket to just have some soap handy. This bottle is also first defense against any earwigs that happen to come around the area. I use about two tablespoons Dawn in a kitchen spray bottle. This is heavy enough dose to have good cleaning ability and also knock earwigs right now. I do not use this bottle with that dosage on my plants though. A teaspoonful in a spray bottle seems to be strong enough to knock aphids.

The ideal amount is whatever it takes to get the bugs, but no more. Do some testing. Some plants are sensitive to soaps, so make a test first with a few leaves. If you find a sensitive plant, you may still be able to use soap, but come behind with some fresh water to wash it off. It only takes one minute or less for soap to kill bugs.

Once the soapy solution dries, it has no effect on the bugs. It gets the bugs you spray it on then its done. I feel good about using it because it won't poison the kids nor the pets.

[Joyfirst]

Doeas the soap help with ants too? I have soooo many ants and they nurture aphids too.

[applestar]

I use dr. Bronners peppermint soap solution strong enough to wash with (like jal's earwig spray) for ants that invade the kitchen. Instant death Added benefit is the peppermint helps to disrupt their scent trai.

[JennieMig]

Ok guys, I have a broad mite problem on my green beans and was advised by my extension office to use insecticidal soap. I have read dawn works well, but some say Murphy''s oil soap is better. What do yall think?

I have to act on this ASAP. Since Saturday these mites have done a lot of damage and my blooms are falling off

[WinglessAngel]

I have been told many a time by my ex fiance's southern grandmother and grandfather, to plant Rosemary hedges, not too expensive, alongside your gardens or interspersed at the edges of your garden. The deer do NOT like the smell and won't cross it nor eat it. A great way to have an excellent smelling fresh herb around and its great to cook pork and chicken with. Also I have seen on UTube a video of a guy who uses Ivory soap and jalapeno Juice mixed together to make an organic bug spray that he says is working great and is not bothering the plants or veggies one bit...he showed video feed of the plants he was spraying as he was also spraying them as well...seemed to be working for him

[rainbowgardener]

I have been told many a time by my ex fiance's southern grandmother and grandfather, to plant Rosemary hedges, not too expensive, alongside your gardens or interspersed at the edges of your garden.

In the south that would likely work, but you are in NE Ohio, so you know in your location like mine, if you planted a rosemary hedge, you would just have to dig the whole thing up and bring it in for the winter...

[WinglessAngel]

agreed rainbow, just a thought in case it might help someone else lol

[digitS']

Ok guys, I have a broad mite problem on my green beans and was advised by my extension office to use insecticidal soap. I have read dawn works well, but some say Murphy''s oil soap is better. What do yall think?

I have to act on this ASAP. Since Saturday these mites have done a lot of damage and my blooms are falling off

I don't know that you got an answer about what we think is the better choice for a soap spray, JennieMig. I use Safer's on the veggies.

On this thread, I believe that I said that I have used Palmolive Green 3 tablespoons/gallon water. I haven't used that on vegetables however. But on the less important sunflowers - actually, over a number of seasons. It works just fine at killing the aphids.

Yes, spider mites and beans go together, unfortunately.

Steve

[jal_ut]

If you read this whole thread, you will get an idea of what people have used with good results. We didn't really arrive at a consensus of what is best. My advice is to try something. See what works for you. We learn to do by doing. Good luck.

[Tony02905]

I have never used insecticides, but there are several organic insecticide sprays on the market today. I have used the dishwashing soap / water mixture and have had some success. I have read and tried Nasturtiums as they tend to be a magnet for aphids, leaving my other plants alone. The trick is to blast them with either the garden hose or the soap/water mixture.

Any chance I get, I try to find and plop lady bugs into the garden as they are voracious eaters and love bad bugs..You can actually buy lady bugs over the net now.lol..lol..I am also toying with the idea of bringing other flowers into the veggie garden that attract good bugs, but just have to make sure they are compatible with the veggies I have.

[applestar]

Check out the [url=https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=335]Beneficial Insects sticky[/url] in Organic Insect and Disease Control Forum for flowering plant ideas.

[JMEAKE09]

HELP! We used a mixture of Dawn (the orange kind), a store bought insectisidal soap, and water (a mixture that was recommended and sworn upon by the man at the garden store) to get rid of Aphids on our pepper plants (they are potted, different varieties of bells and hot peppers)...We soaked them down, per his insturctions, two nights ago and today they are absolutely burned to bits. The plants seem ok, but leaves are all gone...Now I need help with damage control! I picked all the peppers that we had growing and tried to rinse off the plant as best I could to get the rest of the stuff off...is there anything else?? Will the fact that the soap rinsed into the soil be okay, or should I do an emergency repot into fresh soil?? Any quick help would be greatly appreciated!

[Kisal]

Most dishwashing liquids are strong detergents. They cut grease better than plain soaps. OTOH, they are much too strong for most plants, and can burn the leaves. In addition, the treatment should be applied when the plant is not in full sun, because the water droplets can act as little magnifying glasses. Ever start a fire as a kid, using a magnifying glass?

It sounds like you did everything right, but used the wrong products. I like Dr. Bronner's unscented liquid Castile soap for this purpose, but you can use Ivory or even Murphy's Oil Soap. You can even use a bar soap by shaving bits off and soaking them overnight in water. Just make sure it's a pure soap, like Castile or Ivory. I don't know that it would be a problem, but I wouldn't use something like Irish Spring or Dial. That's JMO, though, as I've never tried it. I did use Dawn the first time I made a soap solution to kill insects, and I burned all the leaves on one branch of the tree I was treating. I'm sorry it happened to you, as well.

I don't know alot about pepper plants, but do NOT put fertilizer on them or start to give them more water. That will only make matters worse. The plants won't have any use for extra food, so it will just sit in the soil and damage the roots. With no leaves to transpire moisture, extra water will just sit in the soil and rot the roots. I think just keeping them on the same schedule you had them on would be fine. Cut back on watering if the soil looks like it's staying wet longer than usual, and do not fertilize.

Best of luck to you!

[JMEAKE09]

Thanks for your timely response! I notice now that the Dawn we used is concentrated and antibacterial...probably doesn't help....