New to Bonsai

[NowBonsai]

Hi there,

Need help with my Zelkova sp. around 5 yrs. Now I really don't know how to care for it. I don't really know how much water should I give to it for I am living in Alicante at present and I haven't got a clue how to repot my bonsai. Perhaps one of you could give me a specific instruction on how to do it.

[ynot]

Ok, Your in Spain yes?
Please add that to your profile.
Post a picture of your tree if possible.

About watering:
Please...Never water by a schedule, Here is why:
Watering by a schedule does not address the trees needs.
Water when the tree needs water, Not because: 'It is tuesday and I allways water on tues' The best way to determine this is to dig a finger a knuckle or two deep in the pot. IF it is moist- Do not water. Check them eveyday and water when they need it. Water deeply until the h2o runs freely out of the bottom of the pot. Wait 10 or 15 minutes repeat. The purpose of the dual soaking is to insure a complete soaking of the potting media.

First tell us why do you feel you need to repot?

[Gnome]

Now,

Zelkova is one of my favorite species to grow. I have one informal upright that is nearing the branch development stage, one broom that is in it's first year after the chop, 13 (I think) seedlings started last year and 3 trees in the garden just for good measure.

You do know that this is a deciduous tree that requires a dormancy period, right? I hope you have it outside.

Norm

[NowBonsai]

Ok, Your in Spain yes?
Please add that to your profile.
Post a picture of your tree if possible.

About watering:
Please...Never water by a schedule, Here is why:
Watering by a schedule does not address the trees needs.
Water when the tree needs water, Not because: 'It is tuesday and I allways water on tues' The best way to determine this is to dig a finger a knuckle or two deep in the pot. IF it is moist- Do not water. Check them eveyday and water when they need it. Water deeply until the h2o runs freely out of the bottom of the pot. Wait 10 or 15 minutes repeat. The purpose of the dual soaking is to insure a complete soaking of the potting media.

First tell us why do you feel you need to repot?

I haven't got a website to post my picture and I am not sure on how to do so. Perhaps you can refer me to some website where I can post pictures.

Thank you for the information on when to and not to water the tree.

As for why I feel I need to repot is because I can take my tree out of the pot without any mess. I also looked under the tree and I can see the roots mould to the shape of the pot.

[NowBonsai]

Now,

Zelkova is one of my favorite species to grow. I have one informal upright that is nearing the branch development stage, one broom that is in it's first year after the chop, 13 (I think) seedlings started last year and 3 trees in the garden just for good measure.

You do know that this is a deciduous tree that requires a dormancy period, right? I hope you have it outside.

Norm

Thank you for pointing out to me that it is a deciduous tree and that it requires a dormancy period but care to explain what is dormancy and what will happen to the tree I tried searching the net regarding about that issue but not much information for me.

Would be grateful if you can provide me with more informations..

[ynot]

Ok, Your in Spain yes?
Please add that to your profile.

I haven't got a website to post my picture and I am not sure on how to do so. Perhaps you can refer me to some website where I can post pictures.

Here you go- Look forward to the pictures https://www.imageshack.us/

Thank you for the information on when to and not to water the tree.

Your welcome

As for why I feel I need to repot is because I can take my tree out of the pot without any mess. I also looked under the tree and I can see the roots mould to the shape of the pot.

Ok the tree is potbound? The entire pot is filled with the roots.?
I don't have a Zelcova myself but others here have experience with them.
Pictures Wll help out alot here.
Hang in there!

[NowBonsai]

Ok, Your in Spain yes?
Please add that to your profile.

I haven't got a website to post my picture and I am not sure on how to do so. Perhaps you can refer me to some website where I can post pictures.

Here you go- Look forward to the pictures https://www.imageshack.us/

Thank you for the information on when to and not to water the tree.

Your welcome

As for why I feel I need to repot is because I can take my tree out of the pot without any mess. I also looked under the tree and I can see the roots mould to the shape of the pot.

Ok the tree is potbound? The entire pot is filled with the roots.?
I don't have a Zelcova myself but others here have experience with them.
Pictures Wll help out alot here.
Hang in there!

Thank Ynot for the prompt reply and the link to upload my tree. Alright the first link is to the picture my tree which is taken on the spot. Do tell me if you spot something is wrong with my tree.
https://img247.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00882tl2.jpg

Now the second link is the picture the roots mould like the shape of the pot.
https://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00883hn4.jpg

[ynot]

[
https://img247.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00882tl2.jpg

Now the second link is the picture the roots mould like the shape of the pot.
https://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00883hn4.jpg

Again you are very welcome!
It is potbound.
Yes, You will need to root prune and repot.
Here are some folks in your area who may be able to asist you also:
https://www.aebonsai.org/CValen.htm
https://www.elx-club-bonsai.com/
https://associacio.bonsais.org/
I found those: [url=https://www.google.com/search?q=+Alicante+bonsai&hl=en&hs=W0S&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&start=0&sa=Nurl]Here[/url] Please do let us know if you find local assistance.

Nice looking tree the growth is still going right?
[That is a sign that it is still doing ok- So do not panic. ]

Soon you will have alot of new info to learn. I will have some links up for you later ok? A bunch of them that you will need to read and try to absorb.

This is NOT an emergency yet ok so don't worry. It may take a bit more time than you are thinking as we need to get you some proper soil. No sense in putting it in terrible soil. [Bonsai soil is far different than soil for plants- We will cover that too.]

This next part is very important:
The time you spend reading and really understanding what needs to be done is going to make more difference than if the tree stays that way a few more days.

Besides I see it will really be nearly too hot to be repotting over the weekend anyway. Near 20 or 25C would be better But it will get done soon either way.
https://www.weather.com/outlook/travel/businesstraveler/tenday/SPXX0008?from=_topnav_business
ynot

[ynot]

Here are some links about Rootpruning, The components of proper soil,and watering for you.

https://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/BasicsWhen%20to%20Repot%20your%20Bonsai.htm


Rootpruning: Part I https://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basics_Repotting1.html
Part II https://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basics_Repotting2.html
Part III https://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basicsrepotting3barerooting.htm

https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/rootprun.htm

I hope these help you a bit.
ynot

About soil: https://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basics_Soils.html
About watering: https://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basics_Watering.html

[Gnome]

Now,

Several things come to mind as I review your recent posts. As Ynot noted, although your tree is indeed rootbound there is no urgency at the moment. An ill timed repot will be far more detrimental than waiting until the proper season. Take your time, do some research and acquire either a pre-mixed bonsai soil or begin to gather the proper components.

In looking at the pictures you posted I think that there is a good chance that your tree is actually a Chinese Elm (Ulmus parviflora). There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding the distinction between these two species, and they may even be deliberately misidentified in order to skirt import restrictions of Chinese Elms. I too am just learning to post images to this site and will try to get something up to help you clarify this soon.

I see that you are at about 38 degrees latitude. I am at about 41.5 degrees. Don't you have trees there that lose their leaves over the winter? This is dormancy. Temperate zone deciduous trees require this rest period in order to ensure their vigor for the coming season. Look here for more in depth information.

[url]https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/dormancy.htm[/url]

Having said that be aware that Chinese Elms, (if indeed this is a Chinese Elm), are a sub-tropical species. This tree can be allowed to go dormant over the winter or managed as an indoor bonsai if you are able to provide the proper conditions. Lighting is probably the most important consideration.

I allow mine to remain outside until they experience several hard frosts then move them to an unheated garage sometime in November. They remain there until spring. If it is a Zelkova it is a bit more hardy, I leave mine outside, with protection, all winter.

Norm

[ynot]

I see that you are at about 38 degrees latitude. I am at about 41.5 degrees. Don't you have trees there that lose their leaves over the winter? This is dormancy. Temperate zone deciduous trees require this rest period in order to ensure their vigor for the coming season. Look here for more in depth information.

https://www.weather.com/outlook/travel/businesstraveler/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/SPXX0008?from=tenDay_bottomnav_business

Take a look at the areas average monthly temps for D-J-F in f'
low 60s for a high
High 40s for a low Not fantastic dormancy weather by any means...
But, That is about 5 degrees warmer than my winter And I have deciduous trees Just chill out for about two months or so.

If it is an imported tree is an astute question Gnome as this could be its first 'winter' in these conditions. Until you brought this up I thought the biggest challenge would be finding proper soil components.

I did link to several local bonsai clubs as well as a directory of fairly local bonsai club pages. I hope it helps.

Looked like a Zelcova to me but I have neither species and I often get this one wrong...

[NowBonsai]

[
https://img247.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00882tl2.jpg

Now the second link is the picture the roots mould like the shape of the pot.
https://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00883hn4.jpg

Again you are very welcome!
It is potbound.
Yes, You will need to root prune and repot.
Here are some folks in your area who may be able to asist you also:
https://www.aebonsai.org/CValen.htm
https://www.elx-club-bonsai.com/
https://associacio.bonsais.org/
I found those: [url=https://www.google.com/search?q=+Alicante+bonsai&hl=en&hs=W0S&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&start=0&sa=Nurl]Here[/url] Please do let us know if you find local assistance.

Thanks once again for the prompt reply Ynot. The link is indeed helpful to me but I arrived in alicante a month ago so I still don't know my way around Alicante. I will try to looking up for directions and will definately let you know should I find local assistance...

Nice looking tree the growth is still going right?
[That is a sign that it is still doing ok- So do not panic. ]

It is normal for the leaves to turn slightly brown?

Soon you will have alot of new info to learn. I will have some links up for you later ok? A bunch of them that you will need to read and try to absorb.

Would be great to have loads of new info. Thanks

This is NOT an emergency yet ok so don't worry. It may take a bit more time than you are thinking as we need to get you some proper soil. No sense in putting it in terrible soil. [Bonsai soil is far different than soil for plants- We will cover that too.]

[color=blue]

Ok that puts my mind to rest. (was bit worried about that)

[/color]

This next part is very important:
The time you spend reading and really understanding what needs to be done is going to make more difference than if the tree stays that way a few more days.

Besides I see it will really be nearly too hot to be repotting over the weekend anyway. Near 20 or 25C would be better But it will get done soon either way.
https://www.weather.com/outlook/travel/businesstraveler/tenday/SPXX0008?from=_topnav_business
ynot

[NowBonsai]

Now,

Several things come to mind as I review your recent posts. As Ynot noted, although your tree is indeed rootbound there is no urgency at the moment. An ill timed repot will be far more detrimental than waiting until the proper season. Take your time, do some research and acquire either a pre-mixed bonsai soil or begin to gather the proper components.

Thanks to the both of you, I have learn a lot but nevertheless I think there is still a lot to know so I am depending on you guys

In looking at the pictures you posted I think that there is a good chance that your tree is actually a Chinese Elm (Ulmus parviflora). There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding the distinction between these two species, and they may even be deliberately misidentified in order to skirt import restrictions of Chinese Elms. I too am just learning to post images to this site and will try to get something up to help you clarify this soon.

I am so excited to know what species of tree I have. At the very same time, I have upload picture of my tree (close up of the leafs) perhaps it might helps. Please pardon the picture as there is signs of the leafs turning brown

https://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00886ya3.jpg

I see that you are at about 38 degrees latitude. I am at about 41.5 degrees. Don't you have trees there that lose their leaves over the winter? This is dormancy. Temperate zone deciduous trees require this rest period in order to ensure their vigor for the coming season. Look here for more in depth information.

[url]https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/dormancy.htm[/url]

Having said that be aware that Chinese Elms, (if indeed this is a Chinese Elm), are a sub-tropical species. This tree can be allowed to go dormant over the winter or managed as an indoor bonsai if you are able to provide the proper conditions. Lighting is probably the most important consideration.

I allow mine to remain outside until they experience several hard frosts then move them to an unheated garage sometime in November. They remain there until spring. If it is a Zelkova it is a bit more hardy, I leave mine outside, with protection, all winter.

Norm

[ynot]

NOTE: I am still editing in a longer answer, I just wanted you to see this was here.

Thank you for pointing out to me that it is a deciduous tree and that it requires a dormancy period but care to explain what is dormancy and what will happen to the tree Question I tried searching the net regarding about that issue but not much information for me.

I apologise for missing this question earlier, I am glad Gnome caught it as It IS important and I am glad you asked about something you were unfamiliar with.


The link to your picture is not working for me .. Actually, I have now gotten it to work: The smiley face is a bit too close to the link I think.

Thanks once again for the prompt reply Ynot. The link is indeed helpful to me but I arrived in alicante a month ago so I still don't know my way around Alicante. I will try to looking up for directions and will definately let you know should I find local assistance...

Ah! The tree came with you yes?
Have you moved from somewhere with a cooler climate [I mean is it alot hotter and sunnier where you are now verses a month ago?] This is an important question.

It is normal for the leaves to turn slightly brown?

Normally for this time of year and for that type of tree [deciduous] I would say 'yes' it is perfectly normal for the leaves to be turning colors and falling.

In your example we have other factors though:

The heat IS a factor: Your tree will require more water due to this.
[and Mist your tree daily]

Also This tree is potbound: As you well know the roots are a solid mass in the pot.

This condition can be so severe that the water does not actually penetrate the root mass.
This causes your tree to 'dry out' No matter how often you water.

On the other hand:

Your root mass appeared to be dry[Bone dry in fact in the picture you posted.

Does water sink into the root mass when you water?

If so you may have been overwatering, {A very common error}
The symptoms eventually look much the same as underwatering though often the leaves will yellow before browning and falling off.

What happens is over time too much water will waterlog the roots [they need water AND air also] and they will rot. The tree then loses its ability to take up water through the roots and essentially it dehydrates to death.

Would be great to have loads of new info. Thanks

Your welcome

Ok that puts my mind to rest. (was bit worried about that)

I am More concerned about the browning leaves As it indicates a problem with the tree getting it's requirements. Which has it's problem at the roots. Literally- 'The root of the problem.' I just saw the picture and for the moment we will concentrate on the roots.
ynot

[ynot]

Now,
Because my posts get so large [and at times confusing] Good information or questions can be missed.
I missed one earlier and I don't want something important being skipped or forgotten.
So, I am going to put the important questions for you to answer from my last post right here:

Does water sink into the root mass when you water? [Or does it just flow over it and down the inside edges of the pot?]

Does your soil seem to be 'allways wet' or 'allways dry'? [I am betting 'dry' but I need to know.]

Have you moved from somewhere with a cooler climate [I mean is it alot hotter and sunnier where you are now verses a month ago?]

Now that you have answered those questions, Look here: https://www.worldbonsaiguide.com/spain.htm
https://www.bonsaillevant.org/paginasamigas.htm
https://www.aebonsai.org/
I hope there will also be some help for you in these pages.
Perhaps you will find a bonsai buddy or two.

You are doing a fine job btw of giving good info for the questions we ask, It is helpfull.
I am sure you are learning alot from the links also.

Ynot

[NowBonsai]

Now,
Because my posts get so large [and at times confusing] Good information or questions can be missed.
I missed one earlier and I don't want something important being skipped or forgotten.
So, I am going to put here the important questions for you to answer from my last post right here:

Does water sink into the root mass when you water? [Or does it just flow over it and down the inside edges of the pot?]

To be honest, the water would just flow over it and down the edge.


Does your soil seem to be 'allways wet' or 'allways dry'? [I am betting 'dry' but I need to know.]

You're right. It is always dry and the top of the soil become white. Now I just soak the whole tree in the water and wait for about 15 minutes and mist it a lot. Link below is picture where my tree is in during the day and night but at times I like to move it around when I feel that it might be too hot for my tree
https://img95.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00887nv1.jpg

Have you moved from somewhere with a cooler climate [I mean is it alot hotter and sunnier where you are now verses a month ago?]

Ok, I come from asia as in Malaysia and I am visiting Alicante in fact I am travelling around europe. Anyway, I didn't have a bonsai til I am here in alicante as it was given by my friend knowingly I like plants. (Frankly, my first bonsai)

[ynot]

Have you moved from somewhere with a cooler climate [I mean is it alot hotter and sunnier where you are now verses a month ago?]
Ok, I come from asia as in Malaysia and I am visiting Alicante in fact I am travelling around europe. Anyway, I didn't have a bonsai til I am here in alicante as it was given by my friend knowingly I like plants. (Frankly, my first bonsai)

Ok, The tree didn't have a drastic climate change- good to know- I really do think you have a fine tree there ! It is better than my first 5 trees...
I am guessing you have water in the white tub with rocks in it so the drainage hole of your bonsai pot is not in the water...Is that right? Or is that the dunking pot for the Emergency watering?

I do think that having it sit right out on the terra cotta/concrete/stone is most likely not the best spot considering it is hot anyway. Turns into a large reflective baking surface on hot days if you know what I mean. A place that didn't have the blazing noon/early afternoon direct sun would be a good spot if available. Find him a happy spot:D

Does water sink into the root mass when you water? [Or does it just flow over it and down the inside edges of the pot?]

To be honest, the water would just flow over it and down the edge.


Does your soil seem to be 'allways wet' or 'allways dry'? [I am betting 'dry' but I need to know.]
You're right. It is always dry and the top of the soil become white. Now I just soak the whole tree in the water and wait for about 15 minutes and mist it a lot. Link below is picture where my tree is in during the day and night but at times I like to move it around when I feel that it might be too hot for my tree

I suspected this was the case. It is now an official emergency. NO, I am sort of kidding.
A very serious caution

DO NOT use this method of watering on a regular basis.
You are doing exactly what needed to be done to insure a saturation of the root mass. It will not dry out if you do it regularly.

For the viewers at home:
The submersion method of watering is for situations just such as this where your soil is at the point where no other way is possible.
If you need to submerse your soil to saturate it you need new soil!
[Better =with larger particle sizes, If you cannot get WATER through it imagine the diffficulty the poor roots are having.]
I cannot think of a knowledgable bonsai-ist who Suggests it for anything other than repots or situations just like this. Perhaps on a once monthly basis.
If need be please review the links about watering [only when it needs it-Over watering causes lots of problems... And we are just about to fix your main one- potbound]
We need to find you some Bonsai soil in Spain, That is our mission.
It will give you a bit of time to readup on rootpruning though.

ynot

[NowBonsai]

Now,
Because my posts get so large [and at times confusing] Good information or questions can be missed.
I missed one earlier and I don't want something important being skipped or forgotten.
So, I am going to put the important questions for you to answer from my last post right here:

Does water sink into the root mass when you water? [Or does it just flow over it and down the inside edges of the pot?]

No problem, the water just flow over it and overflow. Somehow or rather the roots is shrinking. I can see the gap between my tree and the pot. Check out the picture.

https://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00888ov0.jpg

Does your soil seem to be 'allways wet' or 'allways dry'? [I am betting 'dry' but I need to know.]

It is always dry but now it is wet for I have soak the whole tree in the water for about 15 mins

Have you moved from somewhere with a cooler climate [I mean is it alot hotter and sunnier where you are now verses a month ago?]

No I am from asia hot climate like here in alicante. The tree was given to me round about 3 weeks ago by a friend. Only the inner part of the tree is turning brown and the top is still budding with small leafs. Look at the picture and tell me honestly what is wrong... Just shout at me should you feel that I am doing something wrong with the tree.

https://img147.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00889ac5.jpg

Now that you have answered those questions, Look here: https://www.worldbonsaiguide.com/spain.htm
https://www.bonsaillevant.org/paginasamigas.htm
https://www.aebonsai.org/
I hope there will also be some help for you in these pages.
Perhaps you will find a bonsai buddy or two.

You are doing a fine job btw of giving good info for the questions we ask, It is helpfull.
I am sure you are learning alot from the links also.

Ynot

[ynot]

. The tree was given to me round about 3 weeks ago by a friend. Only the inner part of the tree is turning brown and the top is still budding with small leafs. Look at the picture and tell me honestly what is wrong... Just shout at me should you feel that I am doing something wrong with the tree.

I am not shouting at you now, nor was I earlier. {as I explained via pm. -Bold=Emphasis}
You really need to contact any of the spanish links I have given you. [Well a somewhat local one actually.] So that they can help you source a well draining soil. [They might even sell it.] and THEN we can go on.

There is no way for me to tell you where to buy bonsai soil in Spain, I do not even know what it is called there.

It all begins with you.

You are going to lose alot of mass from that rootball when you repot and you need to replace that space with bonsai soil in the pot.

You cannot repot until you have some media to put in there.

This is up to you to do.

As soon as you have some soil you can repot it. [Provided you understand what to do.]

There is nothing else for me to do except wait for you to have the materials required to do the job..

[I wont say ask your friend because I know they do not do bonsai.]

How long does it take after you water it until you need to water it again? Generally...

ynot

[Gnome]

Now,

Looking at your more recent photo I am fairly certain that your tree is indeed a Chinese Elm. Look at the picture below. The clipping on the left is from a Zelkova, note the distinctive zig-zag effect at the tip. The clipping on the right is from a Chinese Elm, note the difference in size between the two. If you do not have a U.S. 25 ct. piece for reference they are about 15/16" in diameter, (24 MM). I hope this helps you.

[url=https://img237.imageshack.us/my.php?image=zelelmwe7.jpg][img]https://img237.imageshack.us/img237/4808/zelelmwe7.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Norm

[NowBonsai]

. The tree was given to me round about 3 weeks ago by a friend. Only the inner part of the tree is turning brown and the top is still budding with small leafs. Look at the picture and tell me honestly what is wrong... Just shout at me should you feel that I am doing something wrong with the tree.

I am not shouting at you now, nor was I earlier. {as I explained via pm. -Bold=Emphasis}

I understand I am not sazying that you are shouting at me. I am saying that you are more than welcome to shout at me at should you feel that I am doing something wrong with my tree.

You really need to contact any of the spanish links I have given you. [Well a somewhat local one actually.] So that they can help you source a well draining soil. [They might even sell it.] and THEN we can go on.

Yes I will try to contact them. In the meantime, I will try searching. Thanks and I will keep you inform of the progress.

There is no way for me to tell you where to buy bonsai soil in Spain, I do not even know what it is called there.

It all begins with you.

You are going to lose alot of mass from that rootball when you repot and you need to replace that space with bonsai soil in the pot.

You cannot repot until you have some media to put in there.

This is up to you to do.

As soon as you have some soil you can repot it. [Provided you understand what to do.]

There is nothing else for me to do except wait for you to have the materials required to do the job..

[I wont say ask your friend because I know they do not do bonsai.]

How long does it take after you water it until you need to water it again? Generally...

Generally, I would water my tree once a week but I do mist it once a day. Am not sure if it is enough.

ynot

[/quote]

[ynot]

You really need to contact any of the spanish links I have given you. [Well a somewhat local one actually.] So that they can help you source a well draining soil. [They might even sell it.] and THEN we can go on.

Yes I will try to contact them. In the meantime, I will try searching. Thanks and I will keep you inform of the progress.

Yes, please keep us informed, Good luck to you.

Please do read up on Both 'bonsai soil' [So you will recognize properly sized particles]] and repotting from the links I have provided try to focus on reading about the 'how to' part of it as you will be doing it,
When you get some bonsai soil


How long does it take after you water it until you need to water it again? Generally...

Generally, I would water my tree once a week but I do mist it once a day. Am not sure if it is enough.

I am not sure you I asked you a clear enough question, I should have asked 'How, Dry did you let the soil get before you watered it again? [You see when you answer my question like you did it does not tell me IF the tree needed to be watered again or not.] IF the tree needs water or not is the only important factor in watering, NOT the timing.

Is the soil dry when you water it?, Bone dry? Barely moist? Still soaking from last time?

You should be checking your tree every day [More that once in a hot climate such a yours] You should only water if it is barely moist. [NOT wet- MOIST.]

Considering it is starting to brown out and you have had it 3 weeks [Which is a possible timeframe for serious watering issues to show themselves- Along with being rootbound=not helping] You have been either seriously overwatering or underwatering it. I do not know which.- I hesitate to suggest which I suspect as going overboard the other way is of no value to the tree.]
Time is becoming an issue as you can see from your tree..
Good luck,
ynot