Take Two... Assistance, Please?

[midn1352]

Hello, Forum!

Earlier last year I started my journey into the world of bonsai with a Home Depot Chinese Elm... scraggly little guy that was just starting to show some character up until the beginning of January. I'm pretty sure I killed him (I named him Frank) because I repotted after/during what I thought was a dormancy period into a larger pot, from some old nasty MiracleGro to some pine bark, volcanic rock, and akadama mix. After an airport ordeal and two weeks, Frank just up and died.

Now, I'd like to try again, but this time armed to the teeth with knowledge.

First, I currently live in a dorm room in Zone 8, but when the semester ends, I will live in a campus apartment with a balcony.

Second, I desperately seek a breed of tree that can be trained in a variety of ways (my chinese elm was restricted to pruning methods only); I'd like to work on a semi-cascade style or the formal upright style, depending on whatever tree I decide on. Lately I've been looking at Japanese Black Pines, Japanese Red Maples of the oshio beni cultivar, Jasmine, and Wild Cherry trees. I'd like a Juniper but those tend to smell funny and my mom will have no business with one should I need to be away from home before school starts up in the fall again.

Third, I don't know how to start this new bonsai project. I bought fresh Acer Palmatum seeds off ebay today, but those are going to be a looooong-term project. I was looking at seedlings and saplings, but I don't know how to start them, when to start them, what to put them in, etc. I don't know where to buy an established tree, either. Being a car-less college student, I don't know if I'd rather borrow a friend's car and drive somewhere and buy a tree in person to avoid shipping costs or to find an online dealer and avoid the hassle of trying to find a car to borrow but pay an outrageous amount of money for shipping.

Could someone please help me out? I have been doing a whole lot of reading from books and online bonsai sites (and on this forum haha) because I don't want to charge blindly into my next project.

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

One thing you didn't establish is if this aparment is in Florida... If so... you should consider a bougie... it can be indoors when it's needed, but will tolerate a balcony just fine. They can be pruned as well as wired, and carving them is also easy - by hand or with power tools. They are also notoriously tough and will handle stress better than most. They tend to be very easy to acquire in Florida... and if you have any friends with large ones in their yards you can saw off a limb as large as you want (I have one which started life as a 18 inch cutting - no kidding) and you'll be able to get it to root.

Let me know if you'd like to know more about them... but knowing a little more about where you'll be at is even better than just a USDA zone. I live in the PNW and I'm a zone 8 as well.

V

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

Oh yah... and it flowers so your mom would likely be HAPPY to babysit...lol

V

[JTred]

With limited outdoor space and much of your time being spent in a dorm I think you would be happiest with an indoor tree. Ficus are pretty hardy and lend themselves to many styles. Another option is fukien tea. I suggest getting something that is pretty well established, so you don't spend years waiting for seeds to grow. Schefflera can also be purchased very cheaply, I got 4 medium size plants for a dollar a piece at Lowe's.

I also want to ask why your elm was restricted to pruning methods only? I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure you can wire them.

[bonsaiboy]

I will agree with JTred that if you are going to spend most of your time in a dorm, then the ideal bonsai will be one that is 'indoorable'. But if, starting next semester, you have access to that balcony year-round, it opens up the possibility for growing outdoor bonsai. I will admit I don't know much about the world of outdoor bonsai, as my specialty lies within the tropicals, however, I will say that the ones that you have already mentioned are good starters. I would not spend money ordering a tree online; you will find trees locally that are probably much more suitable. Seedlings and saplings are a good way to start. Local nurseries in your area probably carry an abundance of saplings and such, so you don't need to worry about starting them yourself. As far as what to put them in and so on, it would be best for you to get a book on bonsai, as it will have far more information than anyone can possibly type here. All I can say is that you can start the sapling out in a regular pot when you first begin training, and then move it straight to a bonsai pot or to an intermediate pot (training pot).

[TomM]

I like Victrinia's suggestion - bougainvillea for the flowering aspect and because it can take a little 'neglect'. I'm also with JTred on the ficus. Both of these are great trees for starters/newbies. If possible get both. You cannot own just one bonsai.....you will love it to death!!!

If you are in Florida find a bonsai nursery near you. But rather than borrowing a friend's car have your friend take you (buy lunch and pay for the gas if you must) just so that you can show your friend the wonderful world of bonsai. He/she just might get hooked.

Of course you must keep the cost at a reasonable level. Don't spend huge $ for starter trees. Try to find good info on the trees you purchase. Learn all you can about the species, their native environment, needs and 'dislikes'. Best of luck with your adventure and keep us posted.

[midn1352]

Victrinia: I do live in the north-Florida area, and I never even considered bougainvillea! My mom used to maintain several of them at our old house and I absolutely loved the purple ones... I may be taking you up on your offer later... Thank you for the suggestion!! =]

JTred: My sister has a ficus and the leaves are so disproportionately big... is this the case with all ficus bonsai? As far as the Fukien Tea tree, I've never seen one in the nurseries in south Florida where my mom is, so I guess I never really considered them... I am quickly discovering how much I have yet to learn haha... As for the schefflera, they look so complicated with all the air roots!! Does it take any extra or special knowledge to maintain? And my Chinese Elm? The trunk was very very hard to manipulate and the branches were like hair... I have a photo of him in the forum somewhere... I'll find it for you if my description makes little to no sense...

Bonsaiboy: I will be in the dorms until around April, then I go home for the summer, and I will be in the campus apartments starting in the fall semester, so I think I might wait until the summer to start this project to avoid the completely-indoors issue. I will search around the area and try to find a local nursery... with a city as large as this one, I'm sure there's got to be at least one around here somewhere... Also, my mom has several bonsai books at home that are written very well and are, to my knowledege, quite thorough, so I'll have to take them with me to school next time haha Thank you for the advice!

TomM: Since both the bougainvillea and the ficus got support, I may lean more towards those two than what I had in mind previously... I have so much to learn!! I have a few car-owning friends that may find interest in the art of bonsai; great suggestion! Maybe I can start up a bonsai club on campus... ;] I'll do my homework and will definately keep the forum posted... I'd be willing to bet I'll come back for more help the day I decide on my next selection(s).

Thank you all so much! I really appreciate your help =]

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

Bougies are nice because they are so easy to get something larger to start off with. You don't strike me as someone who would want to start off with a pencil in a pot... and frankly, you can have any size you want on a bougie trunk and get lots of branches to pop all over.

For ficus, a good one with attractive leaves that will get quite small is ficus benjamina. As with all trees, it can be difficult to shift an established trunk... not impossible if you have knowledge of the technique... but most books don't cover that sort of thing anyway. If you want to learn more advanced things of that nature, it's best to work with someone with experiance, so you can do the work without distressing the tree. To change the movement on an established trunk you can simply change it's planting angle a lot of times and that will improve it... otherwise you need to just make sure to wire young branches and develop the movement in them as they grow.

The nice thing about both ficus and bougies is that they respond well to defoliation to get smaller leaves. I don't tend to work with ficus as the ones which are most interesting to me (having a base of more than 6 inches or so) are harder to come by where I live, so I work with what's relatively large and easily available where I live.

My mom also loves my bougie... so I am not surprised that your Mom likes them. One thing with bougies to is to know that the thorns are best removed before they harden off... so stay on top of that if you get one, that way it doesn't bite back.

Here's a photo of mine from a little while back... Its a lot more filled out now actually...

[img]https://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j192/theladysabine/bougie.jpg[/img]

All the carving was done by my husband and I... Including the perforation of the main trunk you can see here.

[img]https://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j192/theladysabine/bougieTrunk.jpg[/img]

This tree was a "cutting"... it's very cool...

V

[froggy]

Nice looking tree

Would you happen to know trees that can root similarly but would work for zone 5 (Northwest of Niagara Falls, past the vineyard and fruit region)?
I saw an article on an olive tree trunk section being chopped and rooted, but even that would probably be not quite hardy enough...

I'm thinking willow could possibly work but would like an alternative...

Else I'll just plan and plot until I get myself a greenhouse

[midn1352]

That is quite a beautiful form! Wow I'd be so afraid to carve into the trunk... there are so many things one can do with a tree that I'm just discovering... Thank you about the tip regarding the bougainvillea's thorns. I wouldn't have thought to clip them and instead would have ended up just trying to avoid getting stuck haha

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

Nice looking tree

Would you happen to know trees that can root similarly but would work for zone 5 (Northwest of Niagara Falls, past the vineyard and fruit region)?
I saw an article on an olive tree trunk section being chopped and rooted, but even that would probably be not quite hardy enough...

I'm thinking willow could possibly work but would like an alternative...

Else I'll just plan and plot until I get myself a greenhouse

Willows would be the only thing which I can think of which roots similarly for that kind of cold... however they are bad for suckers, and random dieback. So while I definitely don't discourage you from trying it... just don't blame yourself if it freaks out and decides to kill a branch you've been working on for years....

Sadly, super easy rooting of chunks of wood is restricted to only a few species. If can be done with prunus etc, but only with branches less than an inch, and then generally with the assistance of a warming mat to encourage root growth.

Hope that helps...

V

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

That is quite a beautiful form! Wow I'd be so afraid to carve into the trunk... there are so many things one can do with a tree that I'm just discovering... Thank you about the tip regarding the bougainvillea's thorns. I wouldn't have thought to clip them and instead would have ended up just trying to avoid getting stuck haha

One thing you may not realize is that beyond about the first few layers of bark and sapwood... everything else under it is dead - heartwood is non-living tissue. The only thing it does is support the weight of the tree. When carving out the main part of the tree you want to be sure not to get so close to the living layers that they dehydrate from the inside out... but beyond that... if the form calls for it as this one did.... get together with someone who can show you the ropes and give it a try.... or try it out on a lump of wood first to get the feel of carving before trying it on your own.

V

[froggy]

sounds like an interesting ride

thanks for the reply... I'll try the willow if I can find an interesting piece...
else I'll have to try my hand at fusing to achieve similar size....
prunus would be nice, but at that size, I might as well buy a nursery plant...

here's the olive I was talking about: [url]https://www.dugzbonsai.com/olivehead1.htm[/url]

I guess the procedure would be similar for a bougie or willow...

[JTred]

JTred: My sister has a ficus and the leaves are so disproportionately big... is this the case with all ficus bonsai?

Ficus can have small leaves, there are many types of ficus with different types of leaves. The leaves on mine are about 2 inches long and about an inch wide.
[img]https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v144/JTsoccer59/1-2-2010013.jpg[/img]

As for the schefflera, they look so complicated with all the air roots!! Does it take any extra or special knowledge to maintain?

Scheffs are very easy. Water when dry and provide some supplemental lighting and they'll grow fast.

However, it sounds like bougainvillea is a good choice to you, but I have to agree with TomM, if you have multiple trees you will be more satisfied.

[midn1352]

Victrinia: Again, there is so much I have yet to learn haha I had absolutely no idea about the heartwood being dead... Maybe there are some local enthusiasts that would be willing to show me some techniques in the future...

JTred: I'll look into the different types of ficus... I suppose most, if not all, trees have different subspecies. "The more you learn, the more you realize how little you know." :wink: Maybe schefflera will be another project for me to work on in the future lol the pictures of them I've seen are beautiful. =]

[bonsaiboy]

Grow some indoor, and some out. That way you have it all! My advice for outdoor bonsai is pretty much expended (as far as horticultural aspects), but I can give you advice pertaining to almost any indoor tree you can imagine (a slight exaggeration there, hehe) if this is another route you want to go.

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

Grow some indoor, and some out. That way you have it all! My advice for outdoor bonsai is pretty much expended (as far as horticultural aspects), but I can give you advice pertaining to almost any indoor tree you can imagine (a slight exaggeration, hehe) if this is another route you want to go.

So do you grow Serissa?

[bonsaiboy]

No, I don't, because I do not consider them an 'indoor' tree. They are semi-deciduous and subtropical from the information I've gathered, and so they need a dormancy period (or a period of cooling) annually.

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

No, I don't, because I do not consider them an 'indoor' tree. They are semi-deciduous and subtropical from the information I've gathered, and so they need a dormancy period (or a period of cooling) annually.

They are only hardy to zone 9... which means they don't require much in the way of dormancy. But the fact that you avoid the little prima donnas marks you as more clever than most. If you said yes... and were successful with them, would make you near to godlike...lol they are one tree I would never bother with, even if I had the set up.

I don't consider myself very handy with indoor species.... except bougies and that is quite enough for me.

V

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

In fact, I think my problem is that I have more regard for my comfort indoors than trees... now outdoors....thats a different matter. I wait on them hand and foot... and think nothing of dragging dozens of trees into the shelter of the garage if its going to be cold.

So props to you for going the extra mile....

[TomM]

midn 1352, Two more flowering types to consider are Grewia (lavender star flower) and Natal Plum. Neither will be as large as the 'bougie' but they can be trained in different ways. The Natal Plum is a vine that can make a really cool cascade but does have some thorns - though they usually stay soft. Clip them off if you wish.

I love it that you would consider starting a bonsai club on campus. That is a super idea and one that many colleges should have. Imagine the impact on young minds! So many of us take up an interest in bonsai at a much later stage in life - then have such regret that we didn't start sooner. Schools that have a strong Biology Department, Horticulture, perhaps Asian Studies could offer a bonsai club for "growing enthusiasts".

JTred - you might consider doing the same. Justinboi - your school too. Now there's a challenge for students at any level. Speakers from the local bonsai communities would jump at the chance to come talk and give demonstrations for you. I'm doing just that at a rural high school in conjunction with the upcoming Chinese New Year festivities. Yeah even though it's the dead of winter in upstate New York. (hey, why should sports fans have all the fun on Super Bowl weekend?)

Great thread going here. So good to have Vic back!!!

[bonsaiboy]

That is a good idea. The only problem with starting something like that at younger level schools might be the lack of interest. The first year I tried to start a botany club at my school, we only had two other members.

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

That is a good idea. The only problem with starting something like that at younger level schools might be the lack of interest. The first year I tried to start a botany club at my school, we only had two other members.

While you make a seriously good point.... botany and bonsai are animals of a very different stripe and temperment.

The one thing I've found difficulty with when teaching young people is getting a steady commitment to the discipline of it.... especially around the notion of having to pay attention to it nearly every day.

V

[TomM]

Good points from both of you. I wish I had had the exposure to bonsai at a much younger age. And that really is my point here. Exposure.

Yes holding a young persons attention and dedicated commitment is really important. And, yes, it is sorely lacking with so many kids today. But look at the enthusiasm we see from young posters to this forum. Spread that around more. Who knows where the next Dan Robinson, Victrinia Ridgeway, or Ryan Neal will come from.....or when?

Give more exposure to bonsai to students and increase the possibility that some will fall in love just as we have. Even if it is only 1 in a million.

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

Tom you do me too much honor... I'm still learning myself. I am lucky to have had the American equivalent of a Japanese apprenticeship though, so I do try and share that learning as much as possible. But I'm just one fish in a very big pond.

I agree about nurturing the interest of young people, I personally would have LOVED picking this up in my younger years as well... hopefully I'll still have about another 50 years or so with it before I kick the bucket...lol

V

[bonsaiboy]

While you make a seriously good point.... botany and bonsai are animals of a very different stripe and temperment.

What I meant here is that any sort of school club dedicated to learning is going to get little interest, especially ones dealing with 'boring plants'. And although I can't speak for all schools, I will say that most people in mine don't know what botany is anyway, and so it is likely that even less know what bonsais are.

[JTred]

JTred - you might consider doing the same. Justinboi - your school too. Now there's a challenge for students at any level. Speakers from the local bonsai communities would jump at the chance to come talk and give demonstrations for you. I'm doing just that at a rural high school in conjunction with the upcoming Chinese New Year festivities. Yeah even though it's the dead of winter in upstate New York. (hey, why should sports fans have all the fun on Super Bowl weekend?)

As an RA I'm hoping that I'll be able to influence a few freshman guys. I have a super secret plan that involves putting "reading material" in the bathroom stalls.

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

What I meant here is that any sort of school club dedicated to learning is going to get little interest, especially ones dealing with 'boring plants'. And although I can't speak for all schools, I will say that most people in mine don't know what botany is anyway, and so it is likely that even less know what bonsais are.

Oh I get that... I was just being cheeky. Oh for the Karate Kid generation... I don't think there was anyone who didn't know what they were if they ever watched the movie.

I remember how AWESOME I thought his garden was... it's still cool... but not as awe inspiring as I once thought it to be in the movie.

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

As an RA I'm hoping that I'll be able to influence a few freshman guys. I have a super secret plan that involves putting "reading material" in the bathroom stalls.

OMG... that's a riot (and a stroke of genius)....


V

[bonsaiboy]

Put it up inside the roll of toilet paper, so when someone goes to unroll it... plop! Reading material falls to the ground in front of them.

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

Put it up inside the roll of toilet paper, so when someone goes to unroll it... plop! Reading material falls to the ground in front of them.

lol Awesome....