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Halfway
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Completed ebb and flow

After much study and comparison, I decided to go with an ebb and flow system as my first venture into hydro. I intend on growing lettuce, basil, and cilantro.

I used a 56 quart and 28 quart sterilite tote for the reservoir and tray respectively. Both cost a total of $11.00 at HD. Add a can of plastic spray paint for $4.00

I purchased the following at a hydro store. Note: the cost of fittings and tubing were nominal over the comparable items at a box store.

Submersible pump $21.00
ebb and flow drain fittings $5.00
Tubing $1.50
Gallon of nutrients $26.00
6 five inch net pots $7.00
33 lbs. silica rocks as medium $14.00 (same as hydroton)
PH test kit $17.00
6 neoprene covers $12.00
20 mil syringe $1.50

Total to get started $120.00

I already had a timer, lighting system (6500k T8 dual 48 inch fixture), an air stone and air pump.

Recurring items:
Nutrients and test solution: Around $20-$30 per year
Air stone replacement: $1.50 per year

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Halfway
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I went with NCS17 nutrients as I intend on maintaining the vegetative state for lettuce, basil, and cilantro.

My research came to the conclusion that this may be the most bang for the buck.

Feedback?

hydroguy
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Sounds like a great system you've put together Halfway, congrats on the frugile shopping trip! Hydro doesn't have to be expensive.

I tried silica stone in a hydro system back a few years ago and was not impressed. The sales girl told me I wasn't going to like it, she knew the systems I had and she was right. After one cycle with some clones it was back to the hydroton for me. Try some of your nets pots with hydroton and some with silica and let us know how things go.

Just finished cutting some leaf lettuce from an E&G system this evening, your gonna love how fast that stuff grows.

Best of luck of your grow Halfway!

hydroguy

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Halfway
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Thank you Hydroguy.

I intended on buying hydroton, but was talked out of it. The owner uses it, but it may have well made him an extra buck or two, not sure.

The first plants they will get will be from rapid rooters.

Can't wait to get rolling.

:lol:
Last edited by Halfway on Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Got the seedlings planted in the system today. I have 5 simpson black elite lettuce each in their own pot and 4 basil bundled into one pot.

I'll trim out the basil as needed. I bundled in fear of some of the root breakage I had when transplanting.

I germinated the 4 basil in peat starter disks. I rinsed as much peat as I could and then sliced open a rapid rooter for insertion of the plants. I then planted them in the medium.

The lettuce was germinated in a paper towel and the sprouts took off once transplanted into the rooters. Those rooters went directly into the medium as well.

I'll get some photos posted when I get time.

hydroguy
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Congrats Halfway on getting that system up and running!

Just finished off a crop of Simpson Black elite and it produced well, very well. Only issue I had with it was I couldn't get the leaves to darken up like the other leaf lettuce I ran. Tweaked the ppm and still no change so it might just be genetics. Interested in hearing how yours turns out. Plant density is something you'll just have to play with to utilize your system. I ran 12 plants in a 6" net pot. 8 of the 16 pots in a 2x2 flood tray had lettuce while the other 8 had some mint and lavendar seedlings. It has one full tray every time it was harvested.

If your still desinging that 5gl DWC system give it some really serious thought about making it a re-circulating system. I did some a while back and they truely rock but theres some down sides to them. Checking the ppm and ph is a hassle.

Keep us posted on how things are growing.

hydroguy

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Halfway
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Thanks Hydro, I plan on consulting with you on the nest system I build...If you don't mind of course.

I notice the leaf color on my simpson lettuce is lighter than expected, but the basil is fine. In about 10 days I wincrease the strength of the nutes and again in another 2 weeks.

Everything is growing at a fast rate, so I am impressed so far!!!

I am scratching my head on the drain cycle at this point though. I may elabaorate a bit later on this.

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Day 5. The lettuce is a bit on the light side, but as hydro said, the Simpson Elite seems to remain a lighter shade of green.

I will up the nutrients in another week. We'll see if that changes anything. The basil is so strong, the grow area smells like lemmons!

I am very impressed with the results after only 5 days. The simplicity is incredible.

[url=https://img821.imageshack.us/I/5nov10.jpg/][img]https://img821.imageshack.us/img821/2774/5nov10.jpg[/img][/url]

Uploaded with [url=https://imageshack.us]ImageShack.us[/url]

hydroguy
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Had some time last night and watched the videos on your blog. Really cool system you've put together! I'll be watching for updates, you've combined 2 different types of hydroponic methods into one sytem. Really cool. There's one system I have thats getting close to completion, it's got a unique twist to it aswell.

Thing about floro's is you can run them really close to plants, you might think about dropping them down to a couple inches above the plants. Available lumens is cut in half for every 12" so keep those lights close.

hydroguy

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Halfway
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hydroguy wrote:Had some time last night and watched the videos on your blog. Really cool system you've put together! I'll be watching for updates, you've combined 2 different types of hydroponic methods into one sytem. Really cool. There's one system I have thats getting close to completion, it's got a unique twist to it aswell.

Thing about floro's is you can run them really close to plants, you might think about dropping them down to a couple inches above the plants. Available lumens is cut in half for every 12" so keep those lights close.

hydroguy
I agree with you on the floros. They actually sit about 3 inches above the plants, but I have to lift them to get a decent photo.

It is sufficient for now as I don't need any flowering. As I move towards peppers and tomatoes, I will have to invest in another light system to not only provide RED, but to penetrate taller canopy. Looking at the UFO's or VHO/HO T5's.

Thanks and please update us on your new system!!

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Made a trip to the hydro store today and picked up a set of locking pulleys for my light system. It has been a pain in the butt to re-hook them as I am tinkering with the system. With the floros so close to the plants, the lights must be lifted to do just about anything.

I could not find any cheaper substitute and really could not find a product like it at any box store or local harware store. The pair were about 20 bucks, but well worth it.

Has anyone found a cheaper alternative?

hydroguy
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The adjustable hangers you picked up are commonly referred to as "yo-yo's". A real handy device for indoor gardens especially when your running floro's. $6 - $10 each is the avg. price so you made a great investment Halfway. I try and be a frugile shopper after I decide what product I want for my garden. I have my own favorite hydro store and check their website, browse through Ebay then decide. Ebay has a bunch of JUNK in their hydro-section but there are a few deals to be found.

hydroguy

csvd87
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What are you using for a timer/where can I get one?

I managed to find a few items at work to make part of my light hanger, got 4 totes, 2 15gal, and 2 8gal(or so) from wal-mart, and 3 double 48" t8 light fixtures from Canadian Tire, so far I am into this for $115.. and as far as I know everything up here costs about 50 to 100% more than the US... My dad has a submersible pump from when he cleaned out his hot tub, and a guy at work has a spare aquarium air pump... So I got a couple things to help me keep this inexpensive, just need to dismantle my old hockey net and salvage the PVC pipe :)

I was looking into nutes, I was probably going to go with Advanced Nutrients SensiCal Mg Grow formula, planning on mostly doing leaf crops/herbs for the winter, maybe peppers, but I am setting up 2 totes.. 1 for starters. with nutes I should be into this for 150 to 160 bucks canadian when I'm done, oh... plus some more bulbs, and according to [url=https://https://www.waynesthisandthat.com/fluorescent.html]this site[/url], GE plant an aquarium provided best growth, followed by GE Kitchen and Bath, but I've found that peppers flower fine under cooler light, I had a filius blue have about 50 or so buds on it.. before I overwatered it, and killed it... I'll end there before I end up writing an essay.

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Halfway
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87...the timer is an analog with adjustments down to 15 minute intervals. I bought it a box store, can't remember which one. The digital seemed cheap, so I went analog. I think it ran about 10 bucks.

I use another analog timer for the lights. The rest of the equipment (fan, airstone pump) run continuously, but could easily be tied into the timer(s).

SOunds like your system startup costs are going to be around the same give or take a bit.

Good luck and throw some pics up on the site!

csvd87
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Ok, so a simple timer, I already have a timed power bar running my lights for the table.

I will get pics up, I need to go pick up about 14-16 ft worth of 2x4 to make a light stand/hanger.

Ever thought of using a submersible aquarium heater? My mudroom is just off a heated room, but it is tops (right now) 20 degrees when the heat is on, which it isn't during the week while at work, just nights and weekends, I have my lights coming on at around 5am and shutting off around 8. its almost like it is early june in there all the time. the auarium heater will keep the water at about 75 I think.

csvd87
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the pump my dad has is quite large, I did some searching, and was wondering, I found a 55GPH pump.. that would fill the flood table in about 10 minutes, would that take too long, do you want it to fill rather quickly?

I can buy a more powerful pump, but 11.99 is definately in my price range :)

csvd87
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Upon some research.. that pump of my dads is at least 1260GPH :shock: .. seems like overkill...

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Halfway
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That is a large pump. I'm not sure the speed of the fill matters, but how long the roots have to absorb the nutrients. Too long will begin to dron them, too short will starve them, the rate of fill is likely not a big deal.

I am no expert though!! Anyone?

csvd87
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Ok well at 55GPH thats something like .92 Gallons per minute, so it would take about 10 minutes or so for the flood to reach the roots. So if I set it for about 15 to 20 minutes? gives it 5 to 10 minute soaking? Sorry, I understand you're new to this as well, but maybe together we can figure this out :) Oh well, trial and error, guess there is a good reason lettuce comes with like 3000 seeds in a pack :)

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Mine takes about 3 minutes to fill and holds that for the additional 12 minutes of the cycle. The plants are rooted in root riot plugs which are absorbent.

They get 3 full hours between drain cycles and I have noticed the rocks are still moist at 3 hours. Not wet, but moist. I assume the root riot plugs are well saturated. The overnight dark period gets one cycle and I have noticed no ill effects or signs of over or under watering.

I think I picked up the fill and drain cycles on line somewhere (probably here from one of the experts), and only tweaked it slightly.

hydroguy
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Not meaning to jack your thread here halfway, hope you don't mind.

'87, stay with your small pump. It will do just dandy for your size tray. The flood trays I run are 2x2 and they have 144 gph pumps in them. That big pump would work you'd just need a REALLY big overflow/drain line for it. Most guys flood every 3 - 4 hours lights on and once during the dark cycle. As long as the plants get soaked for 10 minutes they'll do fine. A 30 minute soak will not hurt them at all.

Don't lose any sleep over the air pump. Simply not necessary when running flood drain systems. I've got some laying around but only use them when running DWC (continuously submerged roots). When your systems drains fresh air (O2) is pulled into the tray which is plenty for your plants. Running a pump sure can't hurt a flood drain system but it isn't necessary.

hydroguy

csvd87
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Thanks hydroguy, unfortunately the home depot here is out of pumps for the season, next best I could find there was 90 bucks. So I'll check Home Hardware tomorrow, they have the same 55GPH pump there for a dollar more.

All I need now is the pumps, pipe, and to finish building my light fixture

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Halfway
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No worries hydroguy, plenty of good info on this thread.

I noticed the box store pond pumps were very pricey. You may want to look online at a hydro store. My submersible is 265(ish) gph and less than 20 bucks. It came with adapter fitting and had good reviews. It seems like lowes and hd pumps were all 40 plus for 2-3 head height. I guess pond shoppers can be fleeced, LOL.

Hmmmm, what to do with all these micro LED Christm,as lights I got for cheap??

csvd87
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got everything I need, I will build it tomorrow while I got the day off for Remembrance Day, ended up getting 2 pumps from the hydro store here, for the money, they are good pumps, actually I accidentally picked up 2 different size pumps, a 264, and a 392 GPH, oh well, I'll build and set up the 264, for testing, the price difference between the 2 was 3 dollars.

Thanks for the inspiration for starting this project Halfway! :D

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Halfway
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I think we have the same 264 pump!! Get some pics posted.

My plants are outside the rim of the pots now. Phenominal growth!!! We added a little lemon basil to last night's dinner. Store bought cannot even come close.

I am thinking of adding another sterilite the same size as my current fill tray and use it as a DWC.

My concern is that the small capacity will allow easy imbalances of nutrients. The container is 28 QT, but I would only fill to approximately 20 QT.

Thoughts on a DWC with only 5 gallons of nutrients and 6 five-inch pots for lettuce?

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well, I just need some pipe and a couple holes drilled and I've got one down, The big pain was cutting the holes for the net pots, for 1 of them I might go with 4 6 inch pots spaced out a bit for peppers, and keep the 6-5" setup for lettuce and herbs, we'll see, got some seeds on order, I have tons of varieties of pepper seeds, but only 1 lettuce and 1 basil.

I will still need to hit up Wal-Mart for Bulbs and a timed powerbar for the lights.

Just looked up DWC on youtube, simple system, seems as though if you had the roots soaking all the time, you would want a weaker nutrient solution, but the air stone should keep it well mixed, much like when adding coke to rum in a glass, the CO2 mixes the drink and there is no need to stir

anyways, here is the pump I bought, and the store I deal with locally

[url]https://www.progressive-growth.com/proddetail.php?prod=ecop[/url]

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"87 that's one of the brands of pumps I run. Dependable little pumps, use their 396 for transfers. Via Aqua is another decent pump for hydro. Here's a link to a timed power strip for comparison if you haven't already purchased one. It's got 8 outlets, 4 run on the timer and 4 are continuous. That's the hydro store I purchase most of my supplies from. Prices are maybe 5% higher but their packaging and shipping are top notch:

https://www.wormsway.com/detail.aspx?t=prod&sku=SSMT100&AC=1

Halfway, DWC rocks! Has a couple of issues with management but it sure can produce some crops. A 5 gl. bucket for lettuce would be perfect, go for it. Ran some back in the day and found a few things you can do to them if your interested. Here's a link to a lid that would be a sweet match for a bunch of lettuce plants.

https://www.wormsway.com/detail.aspx?t=prod&sku=BL310&AC=1

Best of luck to ya both,

hydroguy

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Thanks hydroguy, always appreciative of your advice!

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well.. here it is.. well half of it..

[img]https://i487.photobucket.com/albums/rr235/binchnunker/Garden%20Pics/IMG_9699.jpg[/img]

I need longer chain.. or something to place the tote on. I put some hydroton filled pots in it for the pic, 1 even has a Tabasco(Short Yellow) plant in it :)

I was having issues with the water spraying up through the handle of the tote and leaking all over the floor, so when I was out buying my lights I stopped in at my shop and built these:

[img]https://i487.photobucket.com/albums/rr235/binchnunker/Garden%20Pics/IMG_9698.jpg[/img][/url]

I will be adding a few more peppers in shortly (When they germinate) and.. when my seeds get here I will do some Amethyst Basil, and some lettuces (Skyphos, Green Oak Leaf) Epazote.. well I'll figure it out.

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Here is the latest video journal entry to the blog. Thanks for everyone's input, it has really lessened the learning curve. I am very pleased so far.

The roots are simply amazing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ObpoFxEPxU

I am not sure why the video will not "embed".

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GDay halfway,

great video and those are some amazing roots..

Nice little setup you have there too.. Did you make that yourself or is it store bought? Unfortunately, we don't really get many premaid flood and drain systems such as yours in australia :(. most people just DIY them.

Cheers from Brisbane Australia

Dan

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Hello Danielle....

YES. Totally homemade and as cheaply as possible. I want to learn as much as I can and I feel that doing it myself enhances the learning.

I looked at several retail systems on line for reverse engineering and design, but to be honest, most of the ideas come from individuals posting homemade systems on forums such as these and on youtube.

I am still researching and drawing plans for my next phase.

Are you running hydroponics? If so, what are you growing?

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[url=https://img545.imageshack.us/I/27nov103.jpg/][img]https://img545.imageshack.us/img545/9737/27nov103.th.jpg[/img][/url]

The above photo was taken on November 27th. This is after many harvests which have kept it and the basil trimmed back.

We are at day 27 days (in the photo, 36 days as of today) in the ebb and flow system and this has produced many salads and BLTs. Probably $10 to $15 in lettuce. We have used several batches of basil and have quite a bit in the freezer as well.

I am building 2 DWC systems to allow continuous harvests of lettuce. I'll post when I get it up and running both here and on the blog.

Thanks for all the input from many folks....this first run has been exceptional in all regards and I learned and confirmed alot!

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zG5oF6W0pKI

Here is the latest vid showing a lettuce harvest, discussing nutrient results, light hanging hardware, and future use of the ebb and flow and deep water culture systems.

Enjoy and Happy New Year to all!!

wordwiz
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Imagine meeting you here!

Mike

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Halfway
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wordwiz wrote:Imagine meeting you here!

Mike
Greetings my friend! This is a very good forum with many great members on all topics.

hydroguy
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Looking good Halfway! Enjoy watching the vids buddy. I tried running hydrogen peroxide in my systems once and the results were frustrating, to say the least. Have no idea why as many folks use it but not heard of any one with the nute line I run doing it. Slimy junk built up all over everything in the resv in a matter of days. It is great for cleaning which is where I use it, ran out and have been meaning to get some more.

Pulled some leaf lettuce from some plants under the floro's last night, impressive. Probably wouldn't have tried it until I watched your vids, great work!

hydroguy

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Halfway
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hydroguy wrote:Looking good Halfway! Enjoy watching the vids buddy. I tried running hydrogen peroxide in my systems once and the results were frustrating, to say the least. Have no idea why as many folks use it but not heard of any one with the nute line I run doing it. Slimy junk built up all over everything in the resv in a matter of days. It is great for cleaning which is where I use it, ran out and have been meaning to get some more.

Pulled some leaf lettuce from some plants under the floro's last night, impressive. Probably wouldn't have tried it until I watched your vids, great work!

hydroguy
On the hydrogen peroxide, the folks using it (I'm still looking for the threads/articles) had seen prevention or even treatment of some issues and it seemed like a good preventative. I have not seen any negative changes in anything, so my use is not real scientific at this point, LOL.

Glad you have some lettuce moving. It has been productive during the learning process to actually recoup some initial startup costs with great tasting greens.

Post some shots. 8)

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOZbzFUwdMA

The first run is now in the history books!!

Thanks for everyone's contribution. The learning curve would have been MUCH steeper without the great posts and comments on these boards.

I posted the latest video on the blog as well as some commentary.

I tore down the ebb and flow yesterday ending an incredible run for the Simpson lettuce and lemon basil. We estimated 60 full salads worth of lettuce and probably another 20 batches for sandwiches. The basil is loaded in the freezer and will be used for the next several weeks in stews and soups.

I ended up cleaning the system with 3/4 cup bleach per gallon of warm water. I noticed some "slime" on the inside lid of the reservoir and the intake/outflow tubes, but it was minimal and really the only thing that looked like it needed cleaning. I wiped down the big pieces and rinsed and soaked the small pieces and rinsed.

I soaked the silica stones in the bleach water, rinsed, and now letting dry to get rid of the small pieces of roots. I intend on thoroughly rinsing again in a few weeks after the root pieces have crumbled to dust.

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Thanks for keeping us updated the whole way through halfway. Grow logs are one of the best ways to learn new techniques in my opinion. Can't wait to see new stuff!



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