Remember a clean garden is a happy garden.

[Ozark Lady]

I sprayed it on Harlequin bugs, and they stood on their back legs and scubbed their armpits, while singing... Splish, Splash!

It didn't even slow the critters down any. It did annoy some red wasps.

[jal_ut]

Dawn is biodegradable, OK for septic tanks, and pretty harmless, unless you ingest it, in which case you could have some stomach upset and diarrhea.
If you have never looked at a product MSDS, here is the one for [url=https://www.head-start.lane.or.us/administration/documents/MSDS/Dawn%20Liquid%20Hand%20Dishwashing%20Detergent.pdf]Dawn[/url]

Google is your friend: search for "MSDS product name".

[gumbo2176]

[quote="DoubleDogFarm"]Ozark,

[quote]"
Gumbo should not be tilling wet clay soil. One of the quickest way to destroy soil structure and create hardpan.



For the record, the soil was tilled days prior to the onset of the heavy rains that turned my garden into a giant soup bowl. The garden was as dry as it could have possibly been at the time of tilling. It rained hard again last night and my garden is so wet right now that I can't even row it up to put new plants in. It may take a week or more of no rain before I can even attempt that menial task.

[jal_ut]

Most of us non-permies don't post our techniques on here, because of abuse by the permies. We are ridiculed and criticized about all aspects of gardening that does not line up with permaculture.

Not all of us want to be permaculturists. Not all of us even agree with their theories!

I have left other forums for the very reasons you state here. Not so much the permies, but the Organic Gardening gang. Unfortunately some of them practice the method as a religion and become fanatical, and are on a mission to convert the world, and bully those who have other concepts.

I have seen very little of that going on in this forum. Maybe you have noticed I stay out of the Permaculture and Organic Gardening forums? I am not here in search of religion.

This forum has been great. I have enjoyed the exchange of ideas. I enjoy seeing your gardens and marvel at the differences from my own garden. I am not really a newbie to gardening, but still have plenty to learn. The thing is that to test a concept will take at least one season, and maybe several seasons, so the learning curve moves slowly.

Gix, sorry if this has gotten off topic. Quite a lot of discussion your post started. In conclusion let me say, and you can quote me: "The only wrong way to garden is, Don't!"

[Ozark Lady]

I probably shouldn't have said permies in the above, I should have said "passionate"?

I do not fit in the permie, the true organic, nor some other techniques of gardening. I don't even fit into the plow and chemical crowd!

Does anyone remember the Karate Kid movie? Mr. M was talking to the boy... he said Karate do, or Karate no do. You walk on left safe (do), you walk on the right safe (don't do), you walk in middle of highway (halfway do) and get squished.

Maybe I am in the middle and not truly fitting in any category, so I get squished? ha ha

Gumbo, when I lived in Eastern Arkansas as a child, we had gumbo mud, I well remember swimming in my dad's wheat crop... boy was he mad, boy was I muddy, boy was my mom mad, she had to throw away my shorts they would never come clean... mud crawling? ha ha You took one step into the water, and sunk a foot into the mud underneath.

But, when that stuff dried out... it was like cement, I could ride my bike (on the dirt road) just like kids did on pavement, couldn't do that on the gravelled roads. You can't till wet gumbo, you would sink to China!
But, oh man oh man, can gumbo ever grow the crops! Awesome!

[TZ -OH6]

The forum has become much more tolerant of nonorganic gardeners in the past year or so. The righteous vigor expressed whenever someone mentions Sevin now used to occur whenever anyone mentioned mineral fertilizers (salts are poison) and/or tilling the soil (aka murdering microbes). I had to laugh the other day when I saw an add for Roundup on the same page with the Monsanto is the Devil thread.

[jal_ut]

I do not fit in the permie, the true organic, nor some other techniques of gardening. I don't even fit into the plow and chemical crowd!

I am guessing this fits most of us on this forum. We each develop our own style. I guess you can give your style a name and write a book? It will be worth as much as the other styles and books.

[gixxerific]

Jal or anyone don't fell bad if this has gone off topic. It has grown and I think we may have grown with it.

as far as this

I do not fit in the permie, the true organic, nor some other techniques of gardening. I don't even fit into the plow and chemical crowd!

.

Hell I don't even fit any crowd. I'm the most non gardening type on here I believe. Though I know I'm a true gardener at heart. You would never be able to tell if I never told you by meeting me. My outer shell is as harcore as they come yet I have a gooey inner shell that is soft as it can be.

But I try to be organic as much as possible I do love my Earth and want to keep it in shape fro the kids. But if I'm out with a tiller this year and you all come by harping on me why i shouldn't, you just might find yourself under that tiller. Okay maybe not that would bring in nasty critters.

Yes we all have very different beliefs of what is right, or maybe not what is right, but just how we do it. We can all gain from each other, this here and that there and vice versa.

I'm not really sure where this is going so I'm off the garden I hear some tomatoes calling my name.

All you guy's and gals are the greatest.

[garden5]

Jal, What you said is so true! I just read the other day about several types of gardening styles. There was the French intensive, the Biodynamic, the Grow Biointensive (a combination of the aforementioned two, Square-foot gardening, and now, the subject of this book, mini-farming .

In then end, everyone does what works best for them......some folks just don't like some of those things .

[gixxerific]

G5 somewhere in there is where I lie.

Let's see I don't use chemicals, I do use organic pesticides and fertilizers though minimally if at all. I use compost but not hay, I use grass and leaves and horse manure, I'm trying to get away from tilling but not so much this year, i do hand pick insects and most of the time I spray individual insects and sometimes I go spray crazy (though with organic options that still might not be the best but I'm trying). I do somewhat row plantings but my garden is more or less inter-planted (let's see you not row crop, more than 2 of the same plant next to each other is a row so give me a break). I plant beneficial attractors, I spend most of my time in the garden or at least thinking about my garden, I used mostly all heirloom plants this year started by me. I try to water in a ecologically safe yet garden friendly way.

So tell me why mo tom's suck so friggin bad.

But we are all who we are learn "this" from that guy and "that" from that girl. Then do what feels right to you. And most importantly what works for you.

[rainbowgardener]

G5 somewhere in there is where I lie.


So tell me why my tomatoes suck ....

I really have been thinking about that a lot gixx, worrying about you and wondering what is happening since you work at this so hard and certainly deserve to be getting better results. I'd hate for you to be a negative example or start getting convinced that this stuff doesn't work.

I really don't know, but I'm still thinking that this is some kind of transition effect... From the pictures you posted, it looks like your whole subdivision is newish (at least compared to my neighborhood where the houses were all built 100 years ago! ). Your garden is newer, including some parts that were only turned in to garden this year, I think. And you've been gradually changing the way you garden.

So we are trying to garden more ecologically, which is really a systems approach (as opposed to an individual plants approach). It's like trying to get a whole little ecosystem going in your backyard. It takes awhile to get the system going well and all the parts in balance. And this was a difficult year to do it in with heat and drought (though we all may have to get used to it, this may be becoming the new norm).

So hopefully next year will be a better year and your system will get all nicely balanced out!

[gixxerific]

RBG I sure hope next year will be better.

What you said gives me hope for the future, I have heard it before probably form you and others as well. But this is a transition time. But the way you just aid it makes me rethink my "transition".

I am not and have not been a big pesticide user ever. Though I have been a MG and tiller user in the past. But this is a new subdivision and a new garden on top of that. Maybe that is the transition. Not to mention I have a few neighbors with gardens, one right on the other side of the fence from me that is all about death sprays that could be a "part" of the problem.

It will all come around I hope!! I have been doing all I can to turn a lawn into a productive garden like I had at my old house, but that garden was 7 years old with no problems. This one is basically brand new and ravaged with problems.

But you are right saying you don't want me to be the one that say's heck* this organic stuff it aint working for me. And maybe I have been leading towards that somewhat. But that is not the problem I don't think. I am just pissed my garden isn't how it normally is and I "want to blame something. The easiest thing to blame is you guy's, "well you told me to do this so I did and look what happened" I can blame not tilling, not adding manure in the spring, this and that. But the real the problem is as RBG said my garden has not found the yen for the yang yet. I keep thinking this myself but it is easier to blame someone esle, cause How could I be wrong?

So to the others reading this thread please ignore my ramblings and do what feels right to you. But at least don't use all those nasty chemicals or I might have to send my kids over to ask you not to and that may make you shed a tear or two, they want a nice planet to live in as well.

What I'm trying to say is you are right RBG. I keep telling myself the same thing if only I would listen. it will all work out in the end. I'm just not patient man, herein lies the problem.

So on a lighter note: Let's get those fall garden going, what are you waiting for?

[garden5]

I'd hate for you to be a negative example or start getting convinced that this stuff doesn't work.

Ya hear that Gix, you're giving all of us a bad image ....just kidding

I think, too, that it's your brand new ecosystem that you're building. You're just starting to get things going (now, I say this with the perspective that this is only the beginning of a garden that will be amended and grown over many years) and I'm thinking that it's just going to take a little time for all of the levels of biology to even out (if that even makes sense ) There could be a lot of reasons for the less than stellar garden this year, but I'm sure that not one of those reasons is you.

I think that the best thing I could tell you is one of the most common phrases heard in gardening : just give it time. I know, easy to say, hard to do.

Anyway, on the subject of a fall garden, my bush peas and beans have just sprouted .