Already time to think FALL CROPS! WINTER & COVER CROPS t

[gixxerific]

Aww shucks Apple

By the way nice link (bookmarked).

[sheeshshe]

OK this is SO interesting!!!!! I am just blown away that I've never heard of this before and this is just SO stinkin cool!!!

I checked out that link and wow, what a resource!

Any idea what "tender" means where the temps are? I couldn't find it in the link.



OK, so bare with me because I have lots of thoughts rolling around. So lets say I want to grow a grain. There is winter wheat and rye that says is ok for my temps. So, in the fall I would uproot all of my plants that are in my garden right now and then plant winter wheat instead and then in june I'd mow the wheat, harvest the grain, and then use the rest to mulch my garden? if this is true then this is genius and I am just like HOLEY WOW THIS IS AMAZING!

seriously, someone tell me that I"m understanding this right!

[gixxerific]

Sounds like you are on the right track.

But don't uproot your plants cut them off at soil line throw the rest in the compost. Let the roots become part of the earth for next years garden.

[sheeshshe]

OK, cut them at the soil line, guess I always did it wrong. ooops! so that isn't a problem in the spring? like all the roots and stuff in there? it couldn't be broken down by then right?

BUT, if I wanted to do my whole garden in wheat instead then those roots would be in the way right? so I should uproot them?



OK, nitty gritty details here because I am so excited right now you don't even know. seriously my DH is looking at me like I have 2 heads. like uh, why are you so excited about this? LOL! here is the deal. Iw anted to grow some grains and I thought I'd have to knock down some trees or something to get more garden area to do so, I didn't realize that i could put it where my existing garden is and have it go through the winter!!! is the snow going to be a problem? serioulsy, I hope this really will work because I am very excited and um, yeah. LOL!

[sheeshshe]

well bummer according to this my plan won't work. bah!

http://www.mofga.org/mofga/other/mofjun2.htm

I can't pick it in august. I would have to do beginning of june at the latest ya know?

[gixxerific]

OK, cut them at the soil line, guess I always did it wrong. ooops!

You didn't do it WRONG just different.

If wheat won't work for you than you may have to find something else. There are so many different choices out there you just have to find something that works with your time schedule. Wheat would be great if you didn't have to use that space next year right away like if you had had several acres or way too many veggie beds. That is my problem I want something that will fixate nitrogen and will die back in the winter so it's easy for me. Still not sure myself what to do but there is still time for that. I'm not going to rip out my garden for something that will gain me no harvest. My garden may not allow for too many choices so hopefully I can find something that does what I want it to do but that may be difficult in with my agenda.

I'm no expert but I wish you luck.

Oh and don't get discouraged. you seem excited just look at different alternatives.

[applestar]

If I read your link right,

Winter wheat, he said, fits well when rotated with summer crops, such as dry beans.

means the recommendation is to follow winter wheat with beans. So you need to look at it as rotation over SEVERAL years.

Let's say you planted half your garden with winter wheat this fall. You would harvest that late July/Aug -- in other words, about now next summer -- then sow beans for growing in that space rest of the season. Note that technically, you would sow the beans a few days before or as you harvest, BETWEEN where the wheat plants used to grow. But maybe it doesn't have to be dry beans, maybe you could grow an early variety of snow peas.

OK, leaving them to grow, let's get back to the other half of your garden -- WHAT do you WANT to grow there next year? Let's say you want to grow tomatoes. You need the bed available by beginning of June... Is there cool weather crop that will come out by then? Lettuce and spinach may be? You could sow those a month before last frost. if that's what you want to do, go with winter cover crop that winter kills, like oats and less hardy clover like crimson. Or you could try planting winter mustard or arugula in the fall. I find Dinosaur Kale to be pretty hardy too. You could also plant garlic.
See how you have to plan BACKWARDS?

Now let's go back to next fall after you've harvested the beans... Well, that might be the time to plant garlic in this bed. You could have also sown clover or maybe lettuce and other fall crop under the beans. After winter is over, you could sow the early spring-sown grain like oats here or maybe peas. OR you could undersow the beans with winter killing cover crop and plan to plant tomatoes HERE next year.

It's getting too complicated but I think you get the idea. If you have the space, it's a good idea to have 4 areas to rotate around.

[sheeshshe]

woah, ok... yeah getting a little complicated LOL! this is something to make a type of graph or something to show how it all works. so if I pick the things I want to grow I can put them into a rotating graph type thing?

I was reading on the hairy vetch and I like how it says it kills out the weeds. how long does it keep weeds out for once you plant your summer stuff? because I have a major weed problem and I'd like to get it under control. I know there is nothing to harvest from it besides the straw to use as weed cover, but it could possibly be worth it just for the weed control. yes?

My garden isn't huge so I like to try and get as much out of it as I can. I like the idea of growing some beans for drying. so do you think that if I planted wheat I would still have enough time to do the beans? do they do Ok after frost or do they die? I want to get into protein crops so I can have a variety of things for my family to eat.

I'll have to measure my garden again. I was thinking about maximizing space next year and doing some container gardening around my garden. Like tomatoes maybe. BUT I'm afraid a 5g bucket isn't enough for a tomato plant the way mine grew this year ya know? they got so huge I'm sure their root system is massive and I don't see how a 5gal bucket would be able to contain those roots without being bound. but the tomatoes took up half my garden this year and they're overcrowded and diseased becuse of it. I want a lot of tomatoes so I need to do something, I can't have my entire garden to be tomatoes!

let me measure my garden this morning or afternoon and maybe you guys can help me plan this whole cover crops thing based on my garden size? I don't know anything about it and how much space I need etc, so maybe with my dimensions it will make clear sense to someone else. I really am liking the idea of a rotating thing though!

[sheeshshe]

OK, the whole thing is 37x 16 1/2 on one end of that it narrows to 3ishx10ish (fence division) and the other end (there is a fence division here from before I added on) is approx 8ftx 16 1/2. so what is left in the middle I guess is about 24 feet (this is what I have written down from before) so the large space is 24x 16 1/2.

[applestar]

The more I thought about it, the more complicated it got, because I realized I had to take into consideration how the crops should be rotated in each bed.

I had to draw a diagram...
Still noodling the details but here's what I have so far. Sorry about the quality, I had to take a screen capture because the app wouldn't export.


Overthinking it? Probably. But I'm learning a lot and really enjoying working it all out.

[garden5]

I'm still deciding what....if...my cover crop will be. Like Gix, I want to have full use of my garden come spring, so I think growing a cover crop to maturity is out of the question for me.

[applestar]

I think growing a cover crop to maturity is out of the question for me.

This is a bit confusing and somewhat misleading. Usually covercrops are NOT grown to maturity but are cut down or tilled under (bleh! ) before they set seed -- more like just as they're starting to flower -- as green manure.

The function of cover crop is to keep the soil "covered" while it's not in use and outcompete the weeds.

If you're saying you can't sow the seeds EARLY enough -- I've been thinking about that too because I'm in the same situation. I believe that with some cover crops, you can UNDERSEED while there are still existing crops in the bed. M. Fukuoka does this with every next crop in his rice fields. He sows the clover and rye/barley seeds two weeks prior to harvesting rice. He sows rice seeds in late fall/early winter and sows supplemental rice seeds two weeks prior to harvesting rye/barley. With those crops, he says it's OK to step on the newly emerged ±2" seedlings. According to jal_ut, it's OK to step on newly sown seeds -- so it's probably safe to step on them for 3~5 days at least.

[gixxerific]

My thing is wanting to have a spring garden but more importantly I want to have a fall garden. And around here that is kind of late. So after cleaning up the fall garden I don't have much time to plant a cover crop before the big freezes come. That is my biggest hurdle.

Around here we go from summer to winter in a short time and than back around winter to summer. Or so it seems.

I don't have a lot of space to be planting cover crops when I could be planting usable crops. Now I know some cover crops are usable but do I have the time for them?

[applestar]

That's why I'm working out the complicated diagram. I'll have some beds that won't be planted with fall crops and some that won't be planted with spring. Some with both fall and spring, etc. all different combo choices. And the cover crop selection will depend on those choices as well as the winter micro climate and/or equipped for and level of frost protectionboth in fall and spring, and early spring soil conditions.

As crazy as all this sounds, I think if planned out properly, it'll be just a matter of sowing the appropriate seeds and forgetting about them There may be varying degrees of success, but it's better than NOT doing anything. They'll still add some organic matter, and there will be some growth that are not weeds.

That said, some "weeds" are useful and desirable. My goal is to replace some of the truly unwanted weeds with selections of my own.

[gixxerific]

Good point Apple and I think I can find some room for that we shall see. I am still new to some of this way of thinking so it may take me a while to come around. But I just don't have the time to invest at this moment to be thinking about all this.

3 kids, a job (finally) and all the "right now gardening" has got my hands full. Heck I'm about to go get some kind of soil for starting my fall crops with. I figure it's never too early to start some things.

Look at us last winter starting crops as early and some of us before Jan. By the way a shot of me in front of my Jan planted cherry coming soon, it's over 8 feet tall already.

But I hope to learn some more over the winter that is my down time maybe I will be able to put some thing in for this fall/winter. I already have some blank section in my garden that have just been prepped for fall planting. So after these are full the summer veggies will go down leading to more room.

It's all a gamble being somewhat broke and not much time we shall see what happens.

I just want something that is easy. And I am all about turning something in this spring or early winter. I even looked at a few farm supply shops around for seed but most of it is in 50 lb. bags that is a LITTLE more than I need.

One step at a time for me. I'm just now getting this garden into the swing of things (it's new). So one step at a time.

I just can't wait for next year. I am learning day by day.

[rainbowgardener]

I love it, gixx: "I just can't wait for next year."

Spoken like a true gardener! Here it is August, the height of the season with all the tomatoes and peppers and zukes and whatever you have producing like mad, canning and freezing and dealing with all the produce, and we are busy looking forward to next year!?

It's true -- next year is always going to be the perfect year in the garden!

[gixxerific]

It's true -- next year is always going to be the perfect year in the garden!

All we can do is hope.

[sheeshshe]

LOL! yes, lovely next year where there won't be any SVB or fungal diseases..... HEHEHE


I am thinking that maybe I could do a short season something that over winters but produces something early spring? something that I can harvest? ya know, I'm liking the idea of planting amongst what is already there. I didn't think about that. in order to do all that though one would have to A: get rid of all weeds in order to sew the seeds and B: remove all things like straw, weed mats etc ...

so back to the whole, WHAT do I want to plant.... thing I just can't give a clue to what I want to plant. I just can't figure this out. I wanted to do winter wheat but its saying that I wont harvest it till july/aug. and I don't want to use up all that space on that kwim? so then what? AHHHH!

[rainbowgardener]

I don't do cover crops, don't have enough space to bother with it and what I have I keep busy right up to frost and even beyond. After everything is done I just mulch heavily.

But I think you are missing the point a little, unless you really want to harvest something from your cover crop. I don't think most people do. For the winter wheat for example, the july/aug would be until it is mature and you can harvest the wheat. How many acres do you have? I think you have to have pretty much wheat to bother harvesting it any way...

If you aren't trying to get wheat (grain) from it, you cut it down whenever you want. It will still make good green manure. If I were doing cover crop, I would look for a nitrogen fixer, one of the clovers, alfalfa, medic...

[garden5]

What I meant by my post was that I don't plant on growing a cover crop to harvest. I was reading where some were talking about growing several grain crops and harvesting them.

Like you said, Apps, I also don't know how much time I'll have to sow my seed since I usually like to have my crops grow clear up until frost . I do like your idea of "under-seeding about 3 weeks ahead of time. That sounds like it may work for me.

Like many others, I'm new to cover cropping as well.

[applestar]

2 wks not 3. Although I don't know if it'll make a big difference, and it's certainly something to experiment on.

[rootsy]

If you have a few hours then spend it browsing the e-organics channel at youtube. There are a lot of segments from longer videos put out by U Vermont and Mass university extensions with regard to tillage, cover crops, so on and so forth. The overall scope may not fit into your world but you can surely take what these guys are doing on large scale and utilize it on a small scale...

[philm00x]

i've decided to try a hand a growing garlic this fall. i wasn't sure how garlic grew until i exhausted searching on here and then tried google, only to find out garlic grows from its cloves! (so what came first, the clove, or the bulb? lol). but anyhow, is there a method to growing garlic? do i just sow the cloves outright or do i try to sprout roots somehow and then plant them? do they require lots of depth to grow, or is it something i can grow in a container?

also, i searched and discovered I'm in zone 9. whether or not that information is pertinent to growing garlic is a mystery to me, but i figured i'd throw it out there.

[sheeshshe]

so what would happen if I under sown the seeds like now? apparently first frost is around sept 20th on average. so if I need to sow the seeds 6 weeks before frost then I'm already done for right? am I too late to even do a cover crop now?

[applestar]

I was just reading up on different cover crops. some grow more in fall, others don't grow much in fall but grow more in spring ( which may interfere with planting and growing early spring crop. some winter kill. some, as G5 mentioned (here or elsewhere) is alleloopathic if left on the surface as mulch and will suppress weed seed AS WELL AS crop seed germination.

Without going back to ref, I only remember winter rye as can be sown later into fall. Between oat and rye, one grows more in fall and the other in spring. Oat will winter kill in Z6. Crimson clover is borderline in Z6 and can survive mild winters in Z5. Rye, oat, and vetch are allelopathic as mulch and are better for transplant beds. (I'll have to rethink my plans in the morning)

I'll write up specifics later.

[garden5]

I've got it!

Plant a winter-kill crop in an area in the garden that becomes usable early (like a squash-path that usually gets the SVB or an area of greens and radishes that usually bolt).

Plant a spring-growth crop in an area that you won't have available until later in the season.

Plant an alleloopathic crop where you know you'll be putting in transplants next year so you don't have to worry about seed-germination issues.

Whew! I can see how you needed to make that elaborate diagram, App; I'm duplicating it in my head right now!

[sheeshshe]

I give up LOL!

[garden5]

I give up LOL!

NEVER give up . Were all new to this and still wrapping our heads around the various concepts. If other have done/are doing it with success, so can/will we......it just takes us a bit longer .

[sheeshshe]

well, I found my local orchard on facebook that sends out info to us gardeners every spring in the mail. so I posted on there asking about cover crops. they recommend oats. so I guess I'm going with oats since they are 5ish min from my house and I know that it'll do ok. now I'm just waiting for them to tell me how late to wait to plant it. I'm sad though since they don't have any apples this year because of late frost that is so sad.

[gixxerific]

Yeah don't give up. I'm still iffy if I will do this or not. Same reasons mostly you have. Confused as to what to plant or if there will be money to get said plants. But if not this year I will know more next year and maybe that will be the golden year.

But don't get discouraged maybe back off a little and learn more don't make it a race. There is way to much in the gardening world to learn all at once.

Take your time it will be beautiful.

[sheeshshe]

too much to learn, that is the truth!!!

[TZ -OH6]

I get a third chance to fail at brussel's sprouts this year. Failure 1 was getting to the nursery too late to scavenge the clearance sale over grown spring plants. Failure 2 was cabbage worms eating my whole flat of seedlings overnight (planted after getting back from the failed trip to the nursery). The local nursery is now again advertizing seedlings so I get to transplant in 90 degree weather with deer and bunnies and cabbage butterflies all over the place. Fingers are crossed and shotgun is loaded.

[applestar]

GOOD LUCK!

That's the one ? And doubt I have about brassicas in fall -- White Cabbage butterflies are absolutely everywhere and no doubt moths are just as "busy" during the night.... Not to mention the other garden munchers.

[garden5]

I always say I'm going to do cabage, but then I realize I don't have room for it with all of my other crops.

To add to what Gix said about learning, don't wait until you've learned everything. Experience is the best teacher.

Learn what you can, then just go for it! Sure it may be a flop, but you'll learn more from that flop than from researching how to avoid it. Really, no matter how much you know, you'll always learn new things through personal experience.

If everything there was to know about gardening was contained in books, there would be little use for a forum like this one where we share our own perceptions and experiences and learn from them.

Good luck!

[sheeshshe]

so the question is where do I buy these oats?

[garden5]

You could try your local co-op. Also, I believe that if you go back a page or two in this thread (at least, I "think" it's this thread), there is a website that someone posted that sells cover-crop seeds.

Oats, though, I'd think you cold find locally.

[sheeshshe]

this is interesting...

http://fedcoseeds.com/ogs/OGSorderItem. ... Sname=oats

[applestar]

I like the fedco site. lots of info there, and I bought the NE Covercrop Handbook as recommended by someone (sorry about the lapse in memory )

Here's a REALLY good selection guide for Rye vs. Winter wheat vs. Triticale vs. Spelt: http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/facu ... /wheat.pdf

Here's the rye file:
http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/facu ... fs/rye.pdf

Both from this page: http://calshort-lamp.cit.cornell.edu/bj ... /index.php

Cornell U. Is in Tompkins County
http://www.gardening.cornell.edu/weathe ... rostlg.jpg

My fall frost is probably about a week later.

[applestar]

Haven't read it yet, but look at this!

Crop Rotation on Organic Farms: A Planning Manual
http://www.sare.org/publications/croprotation.htm
.pdf file is available for free download.

[gixxerific]

:-() Haven't read it yet, but look at this!

Crop Rotation on Organic Farms: A Planning Manual
http://www.sare.org/publications/croprotation.htm
.pdf file is available for free download.

Nice! Bookmarked for sure, thanks.