Toil
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Aha! Moment: why I stopped buying organic at the grocery

Well this was not surprising. [url]https://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/20/business/20organic.html?ref=us[/url]

anyone else note that organic produce started out better than conventional, but over the years became unreliable?

Well if you spray with poison, and slap organic labels on, meanwhile forgoing other conventional practices, you get substandard produce with poison on it. Who came up with the idea of limiting both technology and biodiversity? The result is that it's hard to take organic veggies seriously.

Greed is endless, while integrity is in limited supply.

Thank god for gardens!
Last edited by Toil on Sat Mar 20, 2010 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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What the ignorant masses don't know won't hurt them right.

Truly a bad situation, especially the officials ignoring known claims of fraudulent claims.

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Organic food used to taste better. I used to shop at a co-op in San Francisco and remember the first time I tasted organic produce around twenty years ago. The flavors of strawberries and tomatoes burst in my mouth and I thought, wow! This is what food is supposed to taste like! I don't get that experience as often as I used to.

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My dad works in the apple business, and he was telling me most of the supply of variety x comes from a handful of producers.

Those producers grow both organic and conventional within the same property line. My what a temptation that must be in a cold wet year!

We have too many eggs in too few baskets, and it makes me nervous. Especially now that my sowing is overdue. Rutabagas are my hedge against cataclysm.

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Organinc, conventional nothing can touch homegrown.

We always have that at least. :D

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Toil wrote:Rutabagas are my hedge against cataclysm.
It's always nice to find someone *else* (besides me!) who likes to eat rutabagas! Talk about an under-appreciated root veggie...

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Rutagas rock! Mashed rutabagas (mixed with roasted carrot), rutabagas Anna, rutabaga souflee, roasted rutabaga, yum!

My whole family loves them too.

British guys call them swedes apparently.

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How do you grow them :?:

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I sow seeds in situ under a floating row cover, then I don't do much at all.

You can do a spring crop, and then a winter crop. Spring crop was ready early July I think last year in new haven. But I don't keep records.

Really as long as you evade the maggots they are super simple.

The greens are edible as well (it's half turnip)

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I'm glad HEB(our local Texas grocer store) has to compete with Whole Foods when it comes to Organic produce. They opened Central Market to compete and then started adding Central Market products to HEB's and they do very rigurous testing to ensure they get completely organic produce. That's of course, why our organic produce is limited in HEB's, but with Central Market, Whole Foods, and Sprouts farmers market, we have alot of high quality organic produce. That's the benefit of living in or near Austin.

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gixxerific
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Whole foods has a stick surrounding it about possibly not so organic foods.

Whether that is true or not it is mostly from China not from the USA which should be enough to stop you from shopping there.

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WaiT let's be fair. The whole foods scandal is frozen veggies only.

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The whole foods here in Austin, it's orginal store and flagship, has location tags from which their produce comes from. That way you not only know what you're getting, but where it's from as well. That's Austin thoug, so I can't speak for other stores. Central Market's the same way, especilly since they(HEB)'re all about supporting Texas farmers and ranchers.

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Yep... and (not that this is a gardening topic but it's important for non-vegetarians to know) organic eggs, dairy, beef, and poultry could be essentially factory-farmed!!

Cows are grass grazers... they should NOT be eating solely corn and grains... just as chickens should not be eating only corn and soy. I assumed "organic" meant that it was from pastured cows and that "cage-free" eggs were from hens free to roam outdoors, eat bugs and do all the things chickens do. Nope... eggs (for example) can be "organic, cage-free" and still be confined indoors most of the time and fed unnatural amounts of corn and soy.

I'm so frustrated that I'm now determined NEVER to buy anything at the regular grocery store again... and very few items from Whole Foods. I'm buying eggs, dairy and poultry from local organic farms where I've spoken with the farmer and have visited the farm to see for myself how much fresh air and sunshine and green grass the animals get. Needless to say, I'll continue to grow as much as I can and buy produce through my CSA and other local organic farms.

I guess now that I've accepted that you can't trust anything from a grocery store, I'm okay with it. I just realize the only way to eat truly organic is to go back to the way our great-grandparents lived... growing what they can themselves, and buying the rest from local farms.

My new motto is "Industrial organic" is NOT organic!!!

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Marlingardener wrote:Julia,
if enough people express a desire for something, like organic foods, the groceries will respond as quickly as they can.
That is the golden ticket right there. But getting everyone else on board is a whole 'nother thing.

Like you I have a grass fed cattle ranch basically next door to me and people selling fresh eggs here and there. I have been passing by a farm that I need to check out more that touts fresh veggies, eggs, and pork products yum!!

The thing is, unfortunately that most people are lazy and want the convenience of the supermarket and even that is a burden to their soccer mom lifestyles (no offense to women). It might not only be the lazy factor but also the ignorance factor. Most people don't know the difference. That is another thing this world needs to work on. The sad thing is that people are working on it but back to the lazy factor no one pays any attention.

Just sick if you ask me. I'm getting pissed just thinking about it, I'm out. :D

But back to the top some people are into the "organic" lifestyle but you get blindsided by company's that try to sell you supposedly "organic" foods when they are not what you expect.

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gixxerific wrote: The thing is, unfortunately that most people are lazy and want the convenience of the supermarket and even that is a burden to their soccer mom lifestyles (no offense to women). It might not only be the lazy factor but also the ignorance factor. Most people don't know the difference. That is another thing this world needs to work on. The sad thing is that people are working on it but back to the lazy factor no one pays any attention.
based on my experience I strongly disagree. in new haven, many neighborhoods simply don't have access to good quality veggies at reasonable prices, much less enough choice to demand safe and sustainable options.

where there is a community resource - like the garden I belong to, which has over 5,500 square feet just for veggies - the infrastructure does not interact with the local culture. People need veggies, and meanwhile surplus squash rots on the ground and lettuce bolts without ever being cut. I am making flyers in spanish this year, but in general there is no effort to include everyone. If everyone pitches in we can help turn cities into farms.

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Toil wrote: in new haven, many neighborhoods simply don't have access to good quality veggies at reasonable prices, much less enough choice to demand safe and sustainable options.

... I am making flyers in spanish this year, but in general there is no effort to include everyone. If everyone pitches in we can help turn cities into farms.
Absolutely. Access to nutritious food at all is difficult, if not impossible, for residents of lower-income areas, especially in large cities. People are dying early in this country, and part of the reason is a complete lack of access to nutritious food.

Here are two stories from the Oakland Tribune from 2010 and a blog entry from 2008 which provides more in-depth background on the situation:

1) from a 14 Feb 2010 article in the Oakland Tribune on health disparities in neighborhoods within Oakland, esp. with regard to hypertension, at https://www.insidebayarea.com/search/ci_14394321?IADID
:arrow: "I can say stress is an issue there," Solomon said. "But until I can get people to sit down and say, 'I was really stressed today because I had to go all the way to Emeryville and take three buses to go grocery shopping,' it's just me saying that."

2) from a 26 Jan 2010 article in the Oakland Tribune comparing life expectancy in East Oakland to that in Walnut Creek (higher socioeconomic ratings), at https://www.insidebayarea.com/search/ci_13964217?IADID
:arrow: Public health experts widely agree that poorer neighborhoods — which lack grocery stores, pharmacies, doctor's offices, post offices and parks — largely explain the wide gap in life spans

3) A *very* recent development, still in its infancy, is the People's Grocery of West Oakland, which hopes to bring fresh produce to the 30,000 residents of West Oakland, who are currently…served…by over 50 liquor stores, but 0 grocery stores. [note: the 0 is not a typo :(]

This blog entry from 2008 ( https://www.sustainlane.com/us-city-rankings/articles/oakland-ca-the-grocery-gap/LTD1W3WI1TN23RUSJU9K4R2ZR98X ) tells the story:

"Getting a six pack of beer or a bottle of whiskey is no problem for the residents of West Oakland, Ca. Getting a dozen eggs or a quart of milk? that's a different story altogether. Bluntly stated, there are no grocery stores in West Oakland, but there are a total of 57 liquor stores—for just 30,000 residents.

"Among these residents, the diabetes rate is three times higher than in the rest of Alameda county, hypertension rates are elevated, and mortality rates rival those of nations in the developing world."

The blog gives links to authoritative sources for the People's Grocery. BTW, People's is requesting donations of pots for seedlings; they sell the seedlings as a fund-raiser.

Yes, those who have the option (which is both time- and cash-consuming), definitely should do whatever is possible to support individual farmers, ranchers, and other growers whose practices are sustainable and in keeping with their values.

However, gardeners--at least gardeners--should also not overlook those people who live amazingly close by who have no choice at all about what to eat: they would be overjoyed just to get a grocery store at all, much less a farmers' market.

...¡Una buena idea, Toil, escribir in español! :D

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Gracias Cynthia. Ojalá que mi español sea un poco más flúido. Palabras de cultivo no sé.

Yeah it hit me like a brick. I volunteered at the part time farm market (not much organic, but it's local at least) down the hill when I first got here. It's right across the bridge. Nice place, and new or expecting mothers get special vouchers.

Then I worked at the garden. While the market was mostly spanish speaking customers, the garden less than a half mile away was, shall we say, a monoculture. And we have trouble keeping enough members.

Maybe the people at the bus stop want veggies too. duh!

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Acabo de hacer una búsqueda de Internet sobre la frase <<Spanish gardening vocabulary.>>

...¡Hay muchas opciones!

Buena suerte. :D

Cynthia

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P.S. That's about the best I can do! :lol:

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Marlingardener, What a wonderful program you've got going! :clap:

BTW. I LOVE eggplant. Eggplant Parm or in any tomato sauce pasta dish, and eggplant and pork or chicken thighes (with onion and garlic) stir-fry are my favorites. Make them in your kitchen and see! :wink:

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you know a great recipe for feeding the masses is eggplant "meatballs".


I think a secondary effect of local veggies healthy and whole for economically depressed communities is to put just a bit of pressure on local merchants.

Maybe this has two part:

access
education

once people learn that good tasting veggies is possible, they do put some pressure on markets as some are suggesting. Once the impediment of access is expedited*, the expectation of service rises and the market sustains itself.



*I always wanted to use impede/expedite together, since one means a trapped foot and the other one means releasing the trapped foot.

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There's a guy in my city that converted a bus to a mobile farm stand and sells in areas that aren't well served by grocery stores. The BBC did a piece on it ([url]https://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8507341.stm[/url]). I'm a little uneasy about his seemingly paternalistic attitude, but it's certainly a much needed service.

I like the hints of urban farming we're hearing. There are many empty lots in some of Richmond's working-class neighborhoods that have been sitting for years. I've wondered if owners would be willing to let people grow on them if only so they don't have to mow them every once in a while. What a change it would be to take an unsightly, overgrown mess of weeds to a productive piece of land...

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lol, Wal-mart is going organic. I think this is the last nail in the coffin of "organic" brand.

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I didn't think much about it, until I read this post.

I go through a town, no grocery, I go through another town, no grocery, and finally no matter if I go right or straight the next town will have a grocery store. This is a dry county so there are no liquor stores either.
We do have milk, bread and eggs at every gas station along the way, and hmm 6-7 restaurants enroute!

And near my choice of right or straight, there is a fruit stand in season, that is the one I am starting seedlings for.

But, fresh food on a regular basis is just not feasible, I am 17 miles from the closest store (when the fruit stand is not open) to get raw foods! And who knows how long these have been in the cooler?

I tried to set it up to give fresh produce to a local food bank, they can't accept donations from the public! Yep, I said that... The local food bank is not allowed by law, to accept fresh produce from the public.

They will allow you to place boxes of produce or seedlings for the garden outside the building with signs on the boxes: Free to good home.

Can you imagine? Gardeners are feeding perfectly good, organically grown food items to the bacteria in compost piles, because they can't give it to food banks!

My rant of the day!

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right on!

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The motto of Ample Harvest is "Sharing Your Garden Bounty with Neighbors in Need." There is a map to click on and find a willing food pantry "near" your home. I found two within 15 miles of my home already listed in their system, and I know there are more. I just don't have a large enough garden (96 sq.ft) to generate extra produce. :(

When 1 in 6 Americans is seeking food assistance, it's incomprehensible that food banks would turn fresh produce away. :?:

https://www.ampleharvest.org/

Cynthia

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They are only allowed to accept donations, from certain, qualified non-profits.

But, the kids can bring stuff to church, for a food drive. Cans or boxes only nothing fresh!

They then donate this to the food banks!

I do understand that fresh food is perishable, and more to deal with than canned goods. But they have bread... I could have sworn that bread is a perishable! And they have meat! It is packaged and frozen, but still, perishable.

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Toil wrote:
gixxerific wrote: The thing is, unfortunately that most people are lazy and want the convenience of the supermarket and even that is a burden to their soccer mom lifestyles (no offense to women). It might not only be the lazy factor but also the ignorance factor. Most people don't know the difference. That is another thing this world needs to work on. The sad thing is that people are working on it but back to the lazy factor no one pays any attention.
based on my experience I strongly disagree. in new haven, many neighborhoods simply don't have access to good quality veggies at reasonable prices, much less enough choice to demand safe and sustainable options.

where there is a community resource - like the garden I belong to, which has over 5,500 square feet just for veggies - the infrastructure does not interact with the local culture. People need veggies, and meanwhile surplus squash rots on the ground and lettuce bolts without ever being cut. I am making flyers in spanish this year, but in general there is no effort to include everyone. If everyone pitches in we can help turn cities into farms.
Well that only accentuates my point than. They don't know (ignorance) so they don't request fresh produce (lazy) and get what they can from the grocery store. Whatever is on sale no doubt. I live in a farm community where it is somewhat on the edge of civilization. There are ton's of people offering fresh eggs, meat and produce but the majority of the "city dwellers" don't have the urge or time to stop by these somewhat small suppliers. Why would they when the super Wal Mart (did I say super?) up the road has all the nasty stuff their family "needs"? It has a lot to do about how you were brought up, the majority of people don't understand or care how stuff is made they just know it is there for them to buy and it must by okay, right?

Sure there is education among us on the downfalls of our modern society but who has time to pay attention in this hustle and bustle world. You and I do, but what about everyone else you see on the road during a day. What do they think about, I will bet you that most of them are not thinking about better organic or natural food or conservation in any way.

I have been working on my neighbors for 3 years they still don't get it. My direct next door neighbor who get the most of my spoils tells me the other day after I ask him what he thinks of my garden "There are a bunch a little bugs around my deck". From my garden, obviously, he must think. But he doesn't see the fresh produce coming from this garden, he only sees the insects. That is clear point on ignorance he cant see the forest for the trees. But what do yo expect he is a chemical engineer (I have a thing against engineers).

Of all the people I know there are a small handful that think like we do the rest of them don't care and quite a few of them don't care with a passion.

It's is going to take a long time to change people's minds about what is good for them. Change is gonna come but it's not gonna come very fast.

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no gix that's not it at all.

you are ignoring the route produce takes from field to table. At the regional level, buyers and sellers determine who gets what, based on what is for sale and who wants it.

communities with lower incomes get the leftovers, at higher cost. weird, eh?

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Toil wrote:no gix that's not it at all.

you are ignoring the route produce takes from field to table. At the regional level, buyers and sellers determine who gets what, based on what is for sale and who wants it.
communities with lower incomes get the leftovers, at higher cost. weird, eh?
I'm defintiely not trying to fight with you Toil, I have much respect for you.

But I believe that is what I said or at least was trying to say. If the buyers don't ask (want) certain things or don't know the difference the sellers won't bring it in. Which is why "I Believe more people need to be educated on what is "really" out there. I feel people are sheepishly being led to what "they" have to offer. Not what is really obtainable. :)

When I say buyers I mean consumers and when I say sellers I mean suppliers. If the buyers stop buying what the seller is selling they will change so they can make a sale to buyer. A vicious circle but it is played out every day. The greed of the supplier is keeping the honest man down. :x

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ah gix, no need to bicker it's true.

but I would invite you to live in new haven for a year with no car and tell me how you feel about it then.

we went for a few days with no car and it was insanely difficult to do anything. And I am part of the pampered class.

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Food banks won't take fresh produce from just anyone do to potential health risks. They can't risk produce from a local garden that accidentaly got salmonella because they person who recieves the food will sue if they get sick. Canned food is usually washed, and of course is already sterile, thus they'll take it from anyone.

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With the Ample Harvest link, I found a food pantry willing to accept produce, it is the distributors of all local food pantry foods.

According to the map it is 17.4 miles, that must be as the crow flies, and I am not a crow. It is 17 miles to town A and at least 6-8 miles to the pantry that will accept produce. So, I am to drive 25 miles to donate free food, then the food banks will go the same 25 miles to get it from them!

Oh that is fuel efficiency!



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