-
The Helpful Gardener
- Mod
- Posts: 7491
- Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:17 pm
- Location: Colchester, CT
Tater, nobody diputes that; it's like asking a plant to live in straight sand or any straight mineral; wouldn't work at all
And the compaction is another factor; by its mechanical nature alone (forgetting the colloidal features) clay sets up like cement mostly on its own... we all get that... and the high K levels in granite sand would aid in aggregation too...
I just think (and OL seems to agree) that sand by itself is at best a temporary fix, while using compost and clay busting plants will turn your clay into about the finest soil you have ever seen, and if you don't mess with it, there is nothing temporary about it, it's forever. It will take longer but last longer...
Just seems a better solution... especially if you are betting a thousand trees...
HG
And the compaction is another factor; by its mechanical nature alone (forgetting the colloidal features) clay sets up like cement mostly on its own... we all get that... and the high K levels in granite sand would aid in aggregation too...
I just think (and OL seems to agree) that sand by itself is at best a temporary fix, while using compost and clay busting plants will turn your clay into about the finest soil you have ever seen, and if you don't mess with it, there is nothing temporary about it, it's forever. It will take longer but last longer...
Just seems a better solution... especially if you are betting a thousand trees...
HG
-
Ozark Lady
- Greener Thumb
- Posts: 1862
- Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:28 pm
- Location: NW Arkansas, USA zone 7A elevation 1561 feet
Nice tunnels.
My hubby was stationed in North Dakota when he was USAF. And we were amazed, they grew all the crops that Arkansas did, it low tunnels.
These were necessary for them, due to short growing seasons. And they don't have our red clay!
With the tunnel system, I could almost, not quite, grow year round... if I had it set up properly and enough discipline to get out there and garden when it is cold... But, you, in Georgia, you should really be able to do the year round gardening.
I didn't see any red clay... I saw beautiful soil that looked like river silt... Good job!
My hubby was stationed in North Dakota when he was USAF. And we were amazed, they grew all the crops that Arkansas did, it low tunnels.
These were necessary for them, due to short growing seasons. And they don't have our red clay!
With the tunnel system, I could almost, not quite, grow year round... if I had it set up properly and enough discipline to get out there and garden when it is cold... But, you, in Georgia, you should really be able to do the year round gardening.
I didn't see any red clay... I saw beautiful soil that looked like river silt... Good job!
Last year I followed a site called 'wintersown' and planted seeds in plastic milk containers and other containers-I put dirt that we have here (Clay) and mixed in a little sand my hubby had piled up for some project and in the spring when my sprouted seeds were ready to plant. I cut open the plastic containers and out came BRICKS. Yeah, bricks. I litterally could not break some of them and of course the little plants died because they couldn't get free
This year I bought potting soil. I've been amending the soil for four years now in my garden beds, but I didn't want to use my amended soil to plant in the containers because I'm very attached to keeping it in the beds I've worked so hard for-how stupid is that? Anywho, the potting soil will also wind up eventually in the beds.
I've added some small amouts of sand to my beds a few years ago and like the others say, it winds up on top of the clay-another of the world's great mysteries.
The soil in our back yard (which has NO plants in it) is so hard a guy with a small backhoe couldn't get through it to dig a hole for a tree we wanted to plant. Luckily the side yard where I have the garden beds is a little better.
This year I bought potting soil. I've been amending the soil for four years now in my garden beds, but I didn't want to use my amended soil to plant in the containers because I'm very attached to keeping it in the beds I've worked so hard for-how stupid is that? Anywho, the potting soil will also wind up eventually in the beds.
I've added some small amouts of sand to my beds a few years ago and like the others say, it winds up on top of the clay-another of the world's great mysteries.
The soil in our back yard (which has NO plants in it) is so hard a guy with a small backhoe couldn't get through it to dig a hole for a tree we wanted to plant. Luckily the side yard where I have the garden beds is a little better.
-
rainbowgardener
- Super Green Thumb
- Posts: 25279
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:04 pm
- Location: TN/GA 7b
Very interesting... we have people writing in from their own experience who say put sand and clay together, you get cement/bricks; some who say you get sand sitting on top of clay, and some who say you get good soil that way.
I don't have personal experience. I also have nearly pure clay soil (my hillside is treacherous when wet, wet clay is VERY slippery!). But I've never put any sand in it. Maybe I should try the experiment in one spot, just to see what happens. I can say from experience that when you add lots and lots of compost and mulch to your clay, it turns in to lovely loose friable loam.
I think it must be one of those site specific things where the results depend on the exact composition of your clay/soil and what kind of sand you use.
I don't have personal experience. I also have nearly pure clay soil (my hillside is treacherous when wet, wet clay is VERY slippery!). But I've never put any sand in it. Maybe I should try the experiment in one spot, just to see what happens. I can say from experience that when you add lots and lots of compost and mulch to your clay, it turns in to lovely loose friable loam.
I think it must be one of those site specific things where the results depend on the exact composition of your clay/soil and what kind of sand you use.
-
gixxerific
- Super Green Thumb
- Posts: 5889
- Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:42 pm
- Location: Wentzville, MO (Just West oF St. Louis) Zone 5B
-
The Helpful Gardener
- Mod
- Posts: 7491
- Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:17 pm
- Location: Colchester, CT
No mystery to someone from New England; we know freeze/thaw cycles will push up more than sand. Around here it will push up potato sized rocks that were buried by glaciers a long time ago!
But a plant root will stay in place through thick and thin; that's its job. Fukuoka-san started his orchard in "bare red clay, so hard you could not stick a shovel in it." At first he cut weeds and bracken as he had been told, and dug them into holes around the trees, but saw he was getting nowhere. Then he tried burying wood (hugelkultur anyone?), and that was better, but it was still hard work to get the trees down the mountain. So he decided to grow his wood in place. He used six acacias per acre to break up deep soil (they also fix nitrogen) and...
As Fukuoka-san says, "I have found a way to take it easy and let the orchard manage itself."
Sometimes what seems logical is nonsense; sometimes what seems nonsensical is logic. It is a most difficult human task to sort them out, and simply doing is our best tool to accomplish that...
HG
But a plant root will stay in place through thick and thin; that's its job. Fukuoka-san started his orchard in "bare red clay, so hard you could not stick a shovel in it." At first he cut weeds and bracken as he had been told, and dug them into holes around the trees, but saw he was getting nowhere. Then he tried burying wood (hugelkultur anyone?), and that was better, but it was still hard work to get the trees down the mountain. So he decided to grow his wood in place. He used six acacias per acre to break up deep soil (they also fix nitrogen) and...
As the weeds came back in to the barren soil, Fukuoka-san let them grow until mid season, cutting them down and scattering more clover mix. "As a result of this weed/clover cover, over the past twenty-five years, the surface of the orchard soil, which had been hard red clay, has become loose, dark colored and rich with earthworms and organic matter."As for the surface layer, I sowed a mix of red and white clover on the barren ground, but they finally came up and covered the orchard hillsides. I also planted Japanese radish (daikon). The roots of this hearty vegetable penetrates deep into the soil, adding organic matter, and opening channels for air and water circulation. It reseeds itself easily and after one season you can almost forget about it.
Masonobu Fukuoka
The One Straw Revolution
As Fukuoka-san says, "I have found a way to take it easy and let the orchard manage itself."
Sometimes what seems logical is nonsense; sometimes what seems nonsensical is logic. It is a most difficult human task to sort them out, and simply doing is our best tool to accomplish that...
HG
Ya gotta love Mr. Fukuoka. He was truly a genius, and an example to follow
But let's not replicate his anti-science prejudice, which now seems tragically near-sighted (making his quote here about glasses a bit ironic). There is no difference between "hillbilly" and "sciencese", other than imaginary and arbitrary.
Here's how it works: "sciencese" can say in one word what takes a sentence in "hillbilly". So once anyone learns one of these terms, they can communicate faster, and since it's a scientific term, anyone who doesn't know it can ask anyone else who does (or wikipedia) and get the same definition. So less chance of crossed wires.
that's pretty useful.
so if you see a term you don't know coming from me or anyone else, just ask them to explain, and if you feel like it, learn the term. it might come in handy.
But let's not replicate his anti-science prejudice, which now seems tragically near-sighted (making his quote here about glasses a bit ironic). There is no difference between "hillbilly" and "sciencese", other than imaginary and arbitrary.
Here's how it works: "sciencese" can say in one word what takes a sentence in "hillbilly". So once anyone learns one of these terms, they can communicate faster, and since it's a scientific term, anyone who doesn't know it can ask anyone else who does (or wikipedia) and get the same definition. So less chance of crossed wires.
that's pretty useful.
so if you see a term you don't know coming from me or anyone else, just ask them to explain, and if you feel like it, learn the term. it might come in handy.
-
Ozark Lady
- Greener Thumb
- Posts: 1862
- Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:28 pm
- Location: NW Arkansas, USA zone 7A elevation 1561 feet
I recall a saying:
Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see!
You hear of different experiences, and the results are often variable... you can't just make it a generalization.
You can see many results... what you can't see in the garden, is where all of the really most important things are happening. I believe even pests, start from the dirt... a truly well nourished plant does not give off the "Come eat me" signal to bugs.
I appreciated the explanation of the freeze and thaw cycle pushing rocks up. I wondered about that.
We double dug the beds.. and although clay, it is never that hard, I suppose due to the forest, all the huge trees roots have already broken it up some. We used a screen with about 1/2" holes, and sifted out the larger rocks. Well, not bad, still small rocks, nothing of any size.
Every year, I find fist sized rocks in the beds...I know it does not rain rocks, I did wonder if the kids toss the rocks in... but they are partially buried. It seems unreal to miss that many large rocks when digging the beds. Now I know how they get there... Thanks.
Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see!
You hear of different experiences, and the results are often variable... you can't just make it a generalization.
You can see many results... what you can't see in the garden, is where all of the really most important things are happening. I believe even pests, start from the dirt... a truly well nourished plant does not give off the "Come eat me" signal to bugs.
I appreciated the explanation of the freeze and thaw cycle pushing rocks up. I wondered about that.
We double dug the beds.. and although clay, it is never that hard, I suppose due to the forest, all the huge trees roots have already broken it up some. We used a screen with about 1/2" holes, and sifted out the larger rocks. Well, not bad, still small rocks, nothing of any size.
Every year, I find fist sized rocks in the beds...I know it does not rain rocks, I did wonder if the kids toss the rocks in... but they are partially buried. It seems unreal to miss that many large rocks when digging the beds. Now I know how they get there... Thanks.
-
applestar
- Mod
- Posts: 30541
- Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 7:21 pm
- Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M(11/B)
After I read One Straw Revolution, I came up with the idea to grow espalier fruit trees where I'd grown corn and sunflowers + beans, cukes, and clover during the summer. When I planted the corn and sunflowers, I no-till, no grass remove) sheet mulched compacted lawn (about 2" top soil, then SOLID BLUE CLAY) about a month before sowing the seeds.
After they were done, I cut the corn and sunflower stalks with loppers, laid then down and added enough compost and soil to cover them, then mulched with straw and sowed (as in scattered) some Daikon seeds.
The first of the container-grown apple and pear trees came in November. I went to dig holes for the fruit trees and the soil was already loose and black as far as the garden fork went in -- what is that 11"? I just pushed apart the corn/sunflower stalks enough to plant and left everything back where they were. By spring planting, they were mostly gone. Each tree has nodding onion growing at its base. This year, I planted morning glory and Moonflower, sweet potatoes, and honeydew in the corners (away from the fruit tree roots), planted tomatoes and eggplants as well as let some red clover, yellow dock and carrot-gone-to-seed take over in between the trees. This fall, I planted some Egyptian onion top sets and garlic between the trees. (Hmm, I really should be posting this in the Permaculture forum...)
After they were done, I cut the corn and sunflower stalks with loppers, laid then down and added enough compost and soil to cover them, then mulched with straw and sowed (as in scattered) some Daikon seeds.
The first of the container-grown apple and pear trees came in November. I went to dig holes for the fruit trees and the soil was already loose and black as far as the garden fork went in -- what is that 11"? I just pushed apart the corn/sunflower stalks enough to plant and left everything back where they were. By spring planting, they were mostly gone. Each tree has nodding onion growing at its base. This year, I planted morning glory and Moonflower, sweet potatoes, and honeydew in the corners (away from the fruit tree roots), planted tomatoes and eggplants as well as let some red clover, yellow dock and carrot-gone-to-seed take over in between the trees. This fall, I planted some Egyptian onion top sets and garlic between the trees. (Hmm, I really should be posting this in the Permaculture forum...)
-
gixxerific
- Super Green Thumb
- Posts: 5889
- Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:42 pm
- Location: Wentzville, MO (Just West oF St. Louis) Zone 5B
-
Ozark Lady
- Greener Thumb
- Posts: 1862
- Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:28 pm
- Location: NW Arkansas, USA zone 7A elevation 1561 feet
Allegedly, in the old days, water was brought inside and heated for a bath.
The correct order was: Father, all sons, then mom, the girls and finally the baby (babies). By the time the same water was used to wash everyone, the water was pretty dirty... hence the phrase:
Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater... came into common use.
Bet ya didn't know that!
Don't throw out all science terms, I agree sometimes they can be very exacting in explaining what you are trying to convey.
But, I would say, be prepared to also explain it in hillbilly, or common man's language, when it bounces right over someone's head.
The intent is to convey information, and you need to understand what you are conveying... and be able to be concise, and also able to explain.
So, use scienceze.. just stand ready to explain what you just said...
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater...
The correct order was: Father, all sons, then mom, the girls and finally the baby (babies). By the time the same water was used to wash everyone, the water was pretty dirty... hence the phrase:
Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater... came into common use.
Bet ya didn't know that!
Don't throw out all science terms, I agree sometimes they can be very exacting in explaining what you are trying to convey.
But, I would say, be prepared to also explain it in hillbilly, or common man's language, when it bounces right over someone's head.
The intent is to convey information, and you need to understand what you are conveying... and be able to be concise, and also able to explain.
So, use scienceze.. just stand ready to explain what you just said...
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater...
Wow, Applestar, you really inspire me. I'm learning something here every day. The clay isvery slippery and slick when wet, last year I fell four times and believe me, when I go into the chicken coop, I'm real careful-don't want to fall into wet poop, that's for sure!
Ozark Lady I've had the same experience with the rocks, the first couple of years, I got mad at hubby for not doing a great job of getting them out of the beds when he tilled (before I knew not to till anymore) BTW anyone want to buy a $2000.00 tiller? Hubby thought he'd try to till the back field with it til our born-here neighbor told him 'it will grow rocks if you til it'.
That said, I agree compost amending is the best way to get good soil out of clay. I asked for compost for my birthday.
Ozark Lady I've had the same experience with the rocks, the first couple of years, I got mad at hubby for not doing a great job of getting them out of the beds when he tilled (before I knew not to till anymore) BTW anyone want to buy a $2000.00 tiller? Hubby thought he'd try to till the back field with it til our born-here neighbor told him 'it will grow rocks if you til it'.
That said, I agree compost amending is the best way to get good soil out of clay. I asked for compost for my birthday.
-
gixxerific
- Super Green Thumb
- Posts: 5889
- Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:42 pm
- Location: Wentzville, MO (Just West oF St. Louis) Zone 5B
Stones and their resurfacing, all the time here. You would think I have a rock garden. I just picked out a bucket full a few weeks ago, and will do it again I'm sure in a few more weeks if the frost ever gets out of the ground.
Last edited by gixxerific on Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Amen!Ozark Lady wrote:Allegedly, in the old days, water was brought inside and heated for a bath.
The correct order was: Father, all sons, then mom, the girls and finally the baby (babies). By the time the same water was used to wash everyone, the water was pretty dirty... hence the phrase:
Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater... came into common use.
Bet ya didn't know that!
Don't throw out all science terms, I agree sometimes they can be very exacting in explaining what you are trying to convey.
But, I would say, be prepared to also explain it in hillbilly, or common man's language, when it bounces right over someone's head.
The intent is to convey information, and you need to understand what you are conveying... and be able to be concise, and also able to explain.
So, use scienceze.. just stand ready to explain what you just said...
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater...
And if everyone was confident enough to just ask like you did, we wouldn't have tension between "science types" and "hillbillies", which are really the same people.
-
Ozark Lady
- Greener Thumb
- Posts: 1862
- Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:28 pm
- Location: NW Arkansas, USA zone 7A elevation 1561 feet
Yep, they are the same.
We all have areas that we are weak in, and areas that are strong points.
I am a hillbilly, with a college education. And I did minor in science in high school... So, I have a shot at understanding.
But, sooner or later you will hit an area that I just read and re-read... and I have no clue what was just said. And you will hit areas, that are tough for you, and I am strong in...
That is the strength of a forum, where we pool our knowledge, and break the tough areas down for others... And kick around ideas, until we find the answer that can work for that person in that situation.
And to encourage, and inspire one another... that is our strengths...
Never to belittle or shoot anyone down... that would kill a forum...
We all have areas that we are weak in, and areas that are strong points.
I am a hillbilly, with a college education. And I did minor in science in high school... So, I have a shot at understanding.
But, sooner or later you will hit an area that I just read and re-read... and I have no clue what was just said. And you will hit areas, that are tough for you, and I am strong in...
That is the strength of a forum, where we pool our knowledge, and break the tough areas down for others... And kick around ideas, until we find the answer that can work for that person in that situation.
And to encourage, and inspire one another... that is our strengths...
Never to belittle or shoot anyone down... that would kill a forum...
In most instances, just make sure that the material is DRY !gixxerific wrote: Have you ever used your shredder for leaves or garden vegetation, if so how did it work?
One time, I tried to shred some Corn Stalks that had not sufficiently dried... that made a big wad of "goo" that clogged up the Shredder.
That wad of material caused a jam that made the Belt slip and wear through before I could shut the machine down.
I had to replace the Belt... so, that's an expensive and time consuming mistake that I won't repeat again.
-
gixxerific
- Super Green Thumb
- Posts: 5889
- Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:42 pm
- Location: Wentzville, MO (Just West oF St. Louis) Zone 5B
Thanks Farmerlon I'm still thinking I might get a shredder. Though I don't have enough leaves to warrant the purchase on my property. I do have an endless supply right up the road in the woods next to a convenient place to stop and pick them up or my boss would be more than happy for me to clean up his 16 acres. I brought home a few truckloads last year. I didn't shred them in any way but they are decomposing somewhat with all the other stuff I have thrown in there.
Yes, for just leaves, I don't think that I would personally recommend that someone invest in a Chipper/Shredder. I think a lawn mower will do that job just fine.
I never use my Chipper for leaves; but, it has been invaluable to Chip all of the tress limbs and branches that fall around my property. And, it's great to Shred up the larger (dried) garden waste, and prunings/cuttings from bushes.
For leaves, I got tired of having to do so much raking. I found one of those "Yard Rakes" that I can pull behind my mower, and that has worked great for me. It's the cheap kind that "sweeps" the leaves/clippings into a basket as you pull it along {not the fancy and expensive engine-powered vacuum style}.
I just mow the leaves into a row, and they get shredded pretty good in the process... I run the Yard Rake down the row to collect the leaves, and then dump them straight into the compost pile.
Relatively cheap and easy... just like me!
I never use my Chipper for leaves; but, it has been invaluable to Chip all of the tress limbs and branches that fall around my property. And, it's great to Shred up the larger (dried) garden waste, and prunings/cuttings from bushes.
For leaves, I got tired of having to do so much raking. I found one of those "Yard Rakes" that I can pull behind my mower, and that has worked great for me. It's the cheap kind that "sweeps" the leaves/clippings into a basket as you pull it along {not the fancy and expensive engine-powered vacuum style}.
I just mow the leaves into a row, and they get shredded pretty good in the process... I run the Yard Rake down the row to collect the leaves, and then dump them straight into the compost pile.
Relatively cheap and easy... just like me!
-
The Helpful Gardener
- Mod
- Posts: 7491
- Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:17 pm
- Location: Colchester, CT
That can be part of it Laura, but it is just part...
Because clay soils can compact to anaerobic levels (no oxygen) it can preclude the presence of enough biology to support plant life. Most plants are extremely reliant on soil biology not just to create enough porosity for roots to develop, but for symbiont relationships with bacteria and fungi that directly feed the plant, and for indirect benefits like weak acid eyching of mineral content cationically locked in the clay soils. Porosity is just the tip of the iceberg...
HG
Because clay soils can compact to anaerobic levels (no oxygen) it can preclude the presence of enough biology to support plant life. Most plants are extremely reliant on soil biology not just to create enough porosity for roots to develop, but for symbiont relationships with bacteria and fungi that directly feed the plant, and for indirect benefits like weak acid eyching of mineral content cationically locked in the clay soils. Porosity is just the tip of the iceberg...
HG