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applestar
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Branches trained to near horizontal results in altered hormones and stimulates earlier and more prolific fruiting. Yours will fruit later but will have established a stronger foundation and can expect greater longevity.

You don't want to fertilize (especially not high N) after a certain point because the tree will continue to produce tender shoots that can be winter damaged or killed while denying the maturation to the earlier growth that will help them to survive the weather. JONA could tell you the the best cut-off timing in the season.

My trees will be getting supplemental aged compost and hay mulch to get through the hot, dry August and fatten up the green apples. :wink:

JONA878
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Sam
The one thing that you have to remember when you are growing seedlings is that you are going to be one year ahead of any nursery produced trees as you are not grafting them on to a stock.

Normaly your seedling would in the winter be lifted , a scion....a six inch section.....would be cut from it and this would then be grafted onto the rootstock.
This would then be grown on for a further year and then be sold as a one year old maiden.
( Although the scion is in fact two years old.)

If you wanted a high branched tree then up to year two...your third year.....you would not allow any side branches to grow as these would finish too low for the type of tree you wanted to finish with. Just the tip would be grown on up.
Think of growing a standard rose....all shoots are removed until it nearly reaches the height you want it.

I think it would perhaps be of interset to you if you experimented with some of your seedlings and tried cutting the leaders at various heights to see the results.
As I have said before though you must accept that trees on their own roots are an unknown quantity as regards growth strength and height anyway.

sammus
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This was one reason that I grew three apple seedlings (I actually have a forth but am not letting it grow particularly tall at the moment) so that I could experiment with trying to take a cutting / get a different type of apple tree in there etc. And have at least one of the original seedlings untouched so that I can see the difference. Essentially I'm conducting a bit of an experiment outside of my front door!

One thing I was wondering is what is the ratio between roots / the tree itself? I have heard that however tall a tress is above ground, you can assume its roots reach to a similar depth. However, going around a garden centre last week and looking at their apple trees, I saw that they were a good 5ft in maybe a 10inch tall pot? Another thing, how tall should I expect the apple seedlings to reach by the beginning of winter assuming that they are now around 22inches tall and been growing since around the 10th April?

Following rainbowgardner's post, I came home and dug around the peat pots and no roots had managed to come through the pots. I pulled them apart the best that I could, and also took off the little fabric bags from the original propagating disks. Hopefully this will let the little trees grow much deeper root systems and become a bit more well grounded!

Jona, yes thats essentially what I want, to be able to sit underneath them. I had long cocktail sticks when they were a few inches tall to help them grow straight and shall be putting in some taller canes at the weekend. How often up the plant should you tie it to the cane? Maybe once every 10inches? In the past I have put the cane on the side away from the leaning plant, to help it come back to the centre.

While I was dismantling the peat pots this evening, I noticed quite a few tiny green flies sat at the top of one of the apple seedlings. I brushed them all off but is this bad?! I've not heard of greenflies being a good thing! They don't appear to be damaging the plant though, just sitting their having a perch!

So essentially on the cutting front, you only cut back in winter when the tree is dormant and you just snip the top few inches off? Surely that would stop it growing upwards would it not and cause it to develop outwards?

Many thanks!

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rainbowgardener
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I have heard that however tall a tress is above ground, you can assume its roots reach to a similar depth.


This is clearly not true if you have ever seen a 200' tall redwood tree fallen!


I think the original saying was that the VOLUME of the tree below ground is similar to the volume of the tree above ground. Some trees and plants grow long deep taproots and some grow wide spreading shallow roots.

But even thinking about the volume of the tree, it really doesn't seem to hold true, at least for very large trees...

But the example of the tree in the pot isn't relevant, because that is not a natural situation. They are stunting the tree's growth by keeping it in the little pot (bonsai of course being the ultimate example of that!)

JONA878
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Sam.
Apple tree roots are not very deep in their growth at all. They are more inclined to spread in a flat platform around the tree , roughly the same width as the trees canopy.

Aphids are indeed not welcome. Squash away with pleasure.

Tie to your canes around a foot apart until your trunk is straight and strong.

As to the pruning of the trees tip.
If you leave the tip un-pruned it will continue to grow next year but not so strongly and be inclined to be thinner in growth.
By tipping you encourage the tree to produce a stronger and thicker trunk.
Next spring you will find that the bud just below your cut will break and the second one lower down will also break as well.
The leader shoot wiil continue to grow upward but a little help with the ties will encourage its progress.
The second shoot may have to be removed as it is often nearly as strong as the leading shoot. You do not want competition for leader so if it is as strong...remove it.
If the tree is growing strongly several other buds may break as well.

You can leave these shoots for one year as sap pullers and feeders but remember that they will have to go eventually as they would be too low to be future branches.

By year three you should have your tree up to a height were you can leave these side shoots to develope into your branch systems.

sammus
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Thanks for the excellent advice guys! This is my first time growing anything so I'm finding everything to prove somewhat of a learning curve - and having gone in at the deep end growing trees, I haven't made it a gentle incline!

One thing I was wondering is what stage would you think my apple seedlings are at in their life cycle? That is are they now classed as young saplings, seedlings, shoots?! I don't have a clue what the correct term is!

Jona: I did note that around 95% of the aphids were on the shorter of the three apple seedlings, and the one that appears to be having the most trouble with its leaves turning brown! Apart from maintaining a vigilant squashing regime going, are there any sure fire ways to kill the little blighters, or at least prevent them from choosing my apple seedlings?!

Would it be this winter time, so they'd be around 3/4 of a year old, to begin pruning a little at the top?

Regards,

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rainbowgardener
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Aphids are not hard to deal with. A strong water spray will knock a lot of them off or use a soapy water spray to kill them (use real soap not detergent, detergent can harm your plants; dishwashing liquid is detergent).

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Sam.
Fruit trees are normaly named by their year of growth..
One year old....maiden tree.
Two year old...etc.
so yours would be three year olds.

Saplings are just another name for young trees that have yet to produce side shoots. Sometimes called whips.
Seedling or Pippin. when refering to an apple. is just stateing that the tree has grown from a pip with only one parent known. So you can name it what you like...it's you who are the grower.

I would prune the tops very lightly this winter to try to encourage your trees to grow stronger.

sammus
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I'm sorry to say but the smaller, middle apple seedling appears to be on its last legs now. It could be a combination of the peat pots preventing root growth or the aphid infestation on it that has finished it off, but all of its leaves are now hanging limp and are turning various shades of brown.

I'm going to dig it up, put in new soil and transplant my fourth apple seedling into there which has so far been doing very well. Hopefully it will have better success than its predecessor!

I'm going to spray the plants with the washing up liquid mix tonight too to protect against the aphids. How often do you have to do this to protect the plants? Do you just spray the infested areas or the entire plant? How much spray is too much? etc

Many thanks

JONA878
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sammus wrote:I'm sorry to say but the smaller, middle apple seedling appears to be on its last legs now. It could be a combination of the peat pots preventing root growth or the aphid infestation on it that has finished it off, but all of its leaves are now hanging limp and are turning various shades of brown.

I'm going to dig it up, put in new soil and transplant my fourth apple seedling into there which has so far been doing very well. Hopefully it will have better success than its predecessor!

I'm going to spray the plants with the washing up liquid mix tonight too to protect against the aphids. How often do you have to do this to protect the plants? Do you just spray the infested areas or the entire plant? How much spray is too much? etc

Many thanks
Shamus.
The soap mix will not protect you plant against future attacks of aphids.
All it does is coat the little beggers in a film that blocks their breathing tubes so they suffocate.
If there are no aphids on the plant don't bother to spray.
Just a light sqirt of soap in the water is usually enough.

sammus
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Hey everyone,

First of all I hope that you've all had a merry christmas!

So my baby apple trees have now lost all of their leaves and now look like a stick pushed into a pot of soil - don't see the need of including a photo as their not much to look at currently! With it being a casual 0°C outside on average atm I think it is safe to assume that the trees are now dormant - I think it may be time to prune!

Jona878 said:
"As regards pruning. This winter I would suggest that you only just tip them just three or four buds down from the top.
Cut the shoot just above a dormant bud, as close to the bud as possable without damaging it."

I'm not entirely sure what you mean - is this that you do a cut where there used to be leaves attached to the branches? Really not feeling confident about this yet so thought I would seek some advice. Also, do you cut at an angle, or flat? Should I wait until it is slightly warmer before I cut? How much of the tree should I be taking off etc?

Sorry about my lack of knowledge on this! Just don't want to kill off the hardy little trees! Also, what is the effect of cutting them down in this way?

Many thanks,

Sam

JONA878
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Hi Sam...a Very Merry Christmas to you too.

As regards your little trees.
If they are only a foot or so tall I would not prune them at all.
Let them develope to a couple of feet and then start to think about tipping them.
the sole purpose of pruneing back on a young growing tree is to encourage strong growth and to induce side shoot production.
If you do want to tip them then you make a slightly slanting cut just above a bud, trying to get as near to the bud as possable without cutting it.
The very act of cutting your tree should induce the bud below the cut and also the one below that, to break. this is how side shoots are encouraged to grow.
I would not cut them while this very cold weather continues...leave it till it warms up slightly....end of Feb say.

By the way......with this very cold weather try to keep the pots the trees are in protected from freezing completely. Wraping of sacking /straw etc.
Frost usually does little damage to the tree above ground ..but can harm roots if they are not given some protection.

barnercora
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I haven't try growing apple tree from seeds but I'm thinking about it after seeing your post :). I did stock a white peach seeds on a regular potting soil laying around though. It took awhile to sprout- squirrel won't leave it alone keep digging it out but too hard to swallow I guess :D

When they were about 1 1/2 to 2 ft. high with few branches I planted them in the ground. They grow to small trees with fruits[img]https://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll110/barnercora/DSC01837.jpg[/img][img]https://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll110/barnercora/DSC02231.jpg[/img]

I have been cooking homemade peach pie every year.

sammus
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Hey guys,

Just been out wrapping up my apple tree pots in bubble wrap to try to protect the roots from any low temperatures - bit late considering such a cold winter we've had in England, but hopefully their OK!

Here they are now:
[img]https://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn296/bleblo1/P1010231.jpg[/img]
Height of trees from left to right:
2 feet
2 feet 7inches
1 foot 10 inches

I tidied them up, taking off any brown droopy leaves that hadn't fallen from them during Autumn but one of the trees (middle) still has green leaves on which took me by surprise?! It even appears to be growing two new leaves at the top?!

The three are currently north facing over the winter, to spare them from the strong winds I get where I live, but intending to put them back to a south facing position at the end of January.

Also intending to dock the tops off before I go back to university in a weeks time - or is this abit soon? Could always do it mid-Feb?

Sam

JONA878
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I would leave it till the later date Sam.
The nearer it is to the buds starting to swell the safer it will be against cold damage.

They sure look fine though.

sammus
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Cheers Jona! I want them to start budding already! :D

Will they flower at all this next year (though not produce fruit) or will I have to wait a few more years before they will do this?

Also, just began looking at Cherry Trees because I love the blossom on them so they may be my next project to grow them from seed!

JONA878
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I have doubts that they will flower for a couple of years Sam. They need to get some branch structure going first.
Anyway you would not want them to waste energy producing fruit until they have grown a bit more.
The other thing to remember is that as you only know one of the parents you cannot be sure if your apples will be trees that can fruit on one year old wood or not...or even if they are triploids.
Something to look forward to.

Good luck with the cherries.

sammus
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Yeah its going to be interesting seeing how they develop! I'm going to try doing cuttings perhaps on two of them, so I have one original, then two other variations on the original root stocks and see what I get.

Only time will tell, and will be a few more years before I get some nice apple blossoms!

sammus
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Hi everyone,

I thought that it was about time that I posted an update of the apple trees.

I've just repotted them into larger pots, and re-caned them to give them extra support as its getting abit windy here! The first picture is pre-repotting and the second is post on the 20th August 2011:

[img]https://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn296/bleblo1/2011-1.jpg[/img]

and

[img]https://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn296/bleblo1/2011.jpg[/img]

The tallest tree stands at around 5ft now!

They have all began to bush out nicely, but also all seem to have the lead shoot stretching very high without many branches coming off it.

I have a few questions that I'm wondering if anyone can answer:

1) Are they due another prune to encourage them to bush out more? They've only been cut back once at the beginning of Easter this year before they began to bud properly. I want to encourage the trees to get nice and stocky so that they don't need to be supported - its not necessary at the moment but I just wanted to give them a helping hand for days when it is particularly windy.

2) How should I cane the trees? I currently have a cane on each side of them with the tree in the middle, but with each tie having some slackness to it so that they can move about in the wind and reduce stress to the trees.

3) Any other bits of advice?

Cheers guys![/img]

JONA878
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They look great Sammus.

The first ones leader could be cut back a few buds this winter to make it produce a few more side shoots and at the same time thicken up the leader.


The second one I would also just tip back a little but I think you may have to tie down that long branch that is starting to form on the left side as we look at it, as it may well start to compete with the leader in strength. Not a problem at the moment but one to keep an eye on.

The last one looks far more bushy in its growth and the leader needs just a slight shortening to try to get it to grow away a little more.


You say that you have just re-potted them....I still think that those pots they are in now are rather small. They will be producing a large amount of root from now on and it could be difficult to keep them sufficiantly watered unless they have plenty of soil around them.
I reckon a pot twice that size at least for the coming year.
Then if you are going to plant them in the garden they should be fine for the following season.

A larger pot would allow you to use a stronger cane too.

Congrats though....they look great.
Be good to see what sort of fruit they produce in the end.

:)

sammus
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Thanks for the advice.

Should I be pruning them now while their still growing? I heard something about avoiding pruning them this time of year because of various diseases they can catch - that its better to do it just as their beginning to rebud? I want them to grow well and know that when I prune them they'll begin to develop more branches, but just whether its worth giving them a trim this side of Winter before they begin to lose their leaves?

The new pots are the black ones not the orange ones - do you still think that these are too small? They have a volume about three times greater than the orange ones that they've been in. The size they reached was in the orange ones, and these new black ones were meant to give them the extra room that they need . The roots had really filled out the older pots and needed a new pot!

Also, with all of these apple trees being grown from seed, I was thinking of trying to graft a different variation on at some point. Their about 16months old now so when would be the time to try and give this a go?

My other thought is that some of them have a lot of leaves towards the base of the tree - should I take these leaves off to try and encourage growth further up or leave them for now? They don't seem to be causing any harm though at the moment.

Thanks

JONA878
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Hi Sammus.

Sorry...should have said. Leave the pruning until the winter months when the trees are fuly dormant.

Those new pots sound fine.

As to grafting onto your new trees.
If you are going to graft onto side branches to create a sort of ' family ' tree then you will need the branches to be about pencil thickness to be able to get a good 'take '.
So as soon as they are that size then you could start to graft.
Remember though that you have to cut the scions off the doner tree when it is full dormant and do the actual grafting once your own tree has started get a good sap run going in the spring.

Normal method of forcing higher break of branches is to actually remove the low growth conpletely. At the same time though you must leave plenty of leaf on the tree to get good photosythesis for the tree.....so don't get too heavy handed. just take your time over two or three years.

:)

Theclowndog
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Sammus, It's been a few years. Any update as to wether your Apple seedlings are fruiting or ho big they are?

sammus
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Hi ClownDog,

It really has been a few years.

I can happily report they are still going strong, particularly in this early spell of warm weather.

They are currently around 5ft 6", having been pruned about six weeks ago. I am trying to strengthen them rather than get a lot of new weaker growth. It's quite exposed where they are planted and we get really strong wind through the winter so this should set them up nicely. That said, I want them to just grow naturally and not train them heavily at all. A prune here and there, but let nature shape them. Here are a few pictures below:

Image

Image

Image

Looking at the above, they look a bit spindly at the top so I will probably cut them back alot next spring, perhaps down to 4ft to really get them to bulk out. They began to bud a few weeks ago, but the leaves have really exploded out over the last week.

Image

Image

They are now approaching six years old at the end of summer. They've not had any blossom yet, and I haven't grafted them onto an alternative root stock. If anyone has any advice that would be great!

Cheers

Sammus

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First (if they were my trees) I would clean out around their feet. Oh out six feet or so from the trunk. Then I would apply bark mulch about six inches away from trunk out to or past the drip line.

As far as grafting goes, you won't be grafting new roots to this tree. Instead while both the twig you plan to use and the parent tree should be dormant in the spring. Your going to probably start with a simple cleft graft (there are many you-tube series on this) and mate the size of the twig you are adding to the branch you have nipped short. and wrap it tightly with tape (other than duct tape). Electrician's tape is stretchy, masking tape is whiter. Either will work inna pinch.

I might also start cutting off vertacle branches. Think of this as water-shoot training. Jona may over-ride me here, but thats what I'd do.

You might be entertained by a fellow who blogs by the name of "Skill Cult". His front page is: https://skillcult.com/ Have fun...

JONA
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Hi sammus
I agree with tomc those strong uprights should go.
You say that you don't want to do too much training of your trees and you want them to grow strong.
The problem of leaving really strong growth though is that the tree can get out of the habit of cropping and just ...grow....
By controlling strong shoots you force the tree to give you weaker fruit bud bearing shoots. These do the job of controlling your tree then without having to keep forever heavy pruning.
Just let the head of your tree grow strongly until it reaches the height that you want the tree to be, then stop it at that point by only allowing the weaker shoots to remain.

RoryDavid
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Good Advice. I agree with you and also need of very much patience and take care of little plants especially fruits categories. Don't forget watering.

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Gary350
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I recently learned the new preferred way to trim an apple tree is funnel shape so sunlight can get inside to fully ripen all the fruit. I worked in an apple & peach orchard 1968 and 1969 they trimmed their trees a special way to produce more fruit and allow more sunlight to get in to ripen fruit. Fruit will be hard as a pine board with not enough sun light. I am not a very good artist here is a picture I drew hope you get the idea funnel shape from the picture. I never learned how to fertilize fruit trees working at the orchard but I did learn they fertilize very heavy until tree is a certain height before they ever trim the tree. Once tree is large enough to be trimmed they want the root system to be 2 times larger than the trimmed tree this provides tree & fruit with enough food & water to grow lots of large fruit.

When we lived at the other house we had a 15 year old apple tree that had never made an apple. No internet back then all the information I had and tried did not work. Then I saw a TV show how to grow apples they said the worse thing home growers do is not trim their tree enough. You should trim it until you think, OH NO I cut off too much. TV show also said, trees need full sun all day other wise fruit will never be ripe. I cut down a 40 ft tall tree so apple got more sun. Every Sunday after church I gave the tree 1 cup 15/15/15 fertilizer and 1 cup Ammonium nitrate and 5 gallons of water. Tree filled out and grew 3 ft taller but following year I trimmed it and kept fertilizing it and the tree produced 14 bushes of ripe red apples. We put 40 quart mason jars of apply pie filling in the pantry and gave away 10 bushels of apples.

I am going to plant, 2 apple trees, 2 peach trees, 2 blueberry plants this year.
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JONA
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In the garden situation I think the bowl shaped tree is the most picturesque too.
Pruning on the whole is easier as it’s a more’ relaxed ‘ shape and as Gary says it’s the perfect shape for good light to get at the fruit.
In the orchard situation or in a garden where space is tight the centre leader form of growing is much more common.
First thing is the tree will come into crop earlier . ( to get a bowl shaped tree it has to be cut quite low in the maiden year to induce the required branching..this cuts a couple of years of its run to full cropping).
Secondly of course is the area needed.
You can plant four centre leader trees in the space one bowl tree needs.
One thing to remember too is the rootstock.
An open centre tree is better if the stock has a little more “ power “ than some of the more dwarfing stocks.
106 or equivalent or stronger.
27 or 9 would struggle to make a good open centre tree. .....and would need staking all their life because of the poor root system.



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