odSteve
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New Gardener Questions

Hi,
New gardener here with some questions. I've tried posting these questions on U-Tube but it seems like once someone makes a video they seldom come back to answer viewer questions.
Background:
The soil around my house is terrible - so much gravel and rocks even weeds find it difficult to grow. So I made a large raised bed - 20 ft long, 4 ft wide and 30 inches tall. I put a layer of old logs and sticks on the bottom, then a layer of what I call potting soil (I'll explain what that is in a minute) then a layer of old dry field grass, then a layer of potting soil, then a layer of old horse manure collected from a field, then a layer of potting soil, then a layer of cardboard. This filled the raised bed about half way full.
The "potting soil" consists of a lot of perlite and what else I don't know, but it is dark and rich looking. I got several truck loads of it free when the government closed down a near-by Indian pot growing operation. This potting soil is very light and completely dries out very quickly. I tried putting 6 inches or so in a front yard cactus garden (that's all I can grow in my yard) and its thoroughly dry in about 2 days. (Sorry for the long post but questions are coming up).
A rancher friend gives me all the cow manure I want. So he scrapes near his cow feeding bins truck loads of a combination of old cow manure, some fresh cow manure, some hay and a little bit of soil. I've been mixing that with my potting soil in about a proportion of 1/3 potting soil. I'm in the process now of finishing filling my raised bed with that.
Now my questions:
1- What else do you suggest I add to this soil medium for best vegetable nutrition?
2- How long do I need to let my bed soil medium sit and decompose?
3- How do I know when this planting medium is decomposed enough to add worms to finish its decomposition?
4- Do the worms just freeze to death in the winter - temps can get into the single digit *F in the winter with snow and hail and in the high 90's *F in the summer. I made the raised bed from cedar wood so it has some insulation qualities, but probably not enough to keep the raised bed from becoming a big block of ice in the winter.
5- Should I plan on buying worms every spring and about how many do you suggest?
6- And do you suggest I get the red wigglers from eBay or is there a better source?
7- Then how do I know when the bed is ready for planting - is it trial and error where I just plant a few things and see if they die?
I intend to grow blueberries, black berries, strawberries, spinach, grapes, celery, onions, peppers etc but I really don't know or have a clue with what I'm doing in creating this raised bed and its growing medium. I just need some guidance from experienced gardeners. Your help and comments are appreciated.
Thank you.

imafan26
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Hello and welcome to the forum. Can you share your location?

You have a lot of things going on. There is a lot of manure, some aged, some not, some bedding as well as some apparently soil less mix with a lot of perlite and logs. All mixed together.

What ratio did you add of each thing. For myself except for the logs. I would treat the manures as compost, but it sounds like you still need more carbon sources. Manures would be considered a green because of the high nitrogen.
Cardboard is a carbon source, but there are other things you can use that have a better ratio and less lignin. Getting the ratio right is important . See the link below.

ttps://www.nrdc.org/stories/composting-101

There are recipes for a good soil mix. Basically you want 1/3 good topsoil, 1/3 finished compost made from at least 5 different sources, and 1/3 drainage.

Most of what you have in your bed is compost at different stages of decomposition and drainage. You need to have good quality soil.
https://extension.missouri.edu/publications/g6985

I know you are in a rush to plant, but I think you should work on basics first. Start a compost pile and layer the greens and browns. Turn it more often to finish it faster.

The logs are fine on the bottom. but you need to get the ratio of soil + drainage + compost right. If you compost well, the soil organisms will be present in the end product. Vermi composting is a different way of making compost, but it is not a fast way to do that and it does not make a lot.

If you want to do easy vermi composting you can modify a keyhole garden set up and put your compost bin in the center with worms.

Keyhole gardens were developed in Africa by the send a cow foundation to help people grow their own food using the resources that were available to them. They had limited access to water so the garden was designed to work with gray water and be very water efficient. It is built by layering the components of drainage (using rocks, cans, branches, etc (perlite), compost, and manures. There is a central basket where composting materials are added and you could add worms to it as well as the water. The 6 ft diameter is based upon the area that the water will be able to reach in the garden. There is an option to add a cover to the garden for trellising and providing shade in summer. The way they built it is what you can adapt to your raised bed situation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHCmBurbQBc
https://preparednessmama.com/keyhole-garden/

The logs in the bottom of your bed provides drainage and is a hugulkulture concept.

odSteve
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Hi and thank you for the reply.
For location I'm in the north-east corner of California about 50 miles from the Oregon border, elevation about 4000 ft where summers are short and winters are long. Unless by location you mean the garden bed - it runs east-west in full sun but somewhat protected from our occasional strong winds. We've had very little rain or snow this past year and are already considered in a drought.

The high price of lumber has killed my budget so I've been trying to finish this bed off with what is free. So I have not really been going by ratios, only by what has been given me.

I had the old logs and branches so I just cut them up and put them on the bottom.
I then put the potting soil on top, over half an inch after filling in all the cracks and crevices between the logs and branches. This has great drainage potential so I used a lot of it there.

Then I put several bags, about two inches of dried field grass someone cut from their field over a year ago. On top of that another thin layer of potting soil.

Then I collected several bags of old horse manure from a field (for about two inches in the raised bed) then another thin layer of potting soil on top.

Someone then gave me a small box of fresh horse manure I threw in the planter. But it smelled bad and was just too ... intense. I'm not going to use his fresh horse manure again, at least not in this raised bed.

I then put one layer of card board on top to help retain moisture, and I was out of things to put in the raised bed. Except for potting soil and I did not want to use all of it up. Plus I somehow doubted its real plant nutritional value. This half-way filled my raised bed.

I intend to start a separate compost bin, but first I need to fill this planter and start its mix composting.

Then a friend said he had cow manure available. I took my truck down to his place and with his backhoe he scraped up what I feel is some of the best planter mix I've found so far. A mixture of mostly old, and some new cow manure with a little hay all pulverized into the soil by the cows. And this soil/manure/hay combination is what I've been filling the top half of my planter with. I mix 6 to 8 shovelfuls of this with 3 shovels of potting mix. It light and looks like black gold when I water it down.

What do you recommend for carbon sources?

I'm sure I don't have a third of the mix as top soil. But the next time I go to pick up more cow manure, I can always ask him to dig a bit deeper to get more soil in the load.

That's the best I can do for proportions - most things were just layers. But I'll be turning these layers in the raised bed like composting.

It's late now but I'll be reading your reply over a few more times and studying your links. I'm sure I will have more questions then - such as compost from 5 different sources - sounds intimidating with such a big raised planter. And do I need to turn it daily? And not sure about the keyhole garden concept - still much studying I have to do.

Thank you, again.

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applestar
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Welcome to the forum! You have an interesting project going on, and I want to join the conversation, but am limited in time just now, so a few things to get started—

My impression is you are starting a kind of pseudo hugelkultur-based raised bed. Hers is a link I made with search within our forum archives —

:arrow: search.php?keywords=Hugelkultur

I’ve tried it in various forms, and others have too. So you can see what’s what. I’ve based my projects on hybrid of “sheet mulching” and hugelkultur. You are getting far more manure than I ever had access to. Someone else talked about using very aged cattle lot “soil” — I believe it was lakngulf when he filled his cattle protein? molasses? tub planters. He has a fantastic container garden on his lakeside pier.

If you layered cardboard, my feeling is if you stick with “potting mix”-like and soil-like medium -including mushroom compost- and not anything too chunky or need decomposing in the upper layer above it, you are at “lasagna garden bed” stage and would be able to plant in that top part regardless of state of lower mixture/layer. However, you may have to wait for the initial burst of generated heat To subside. I would put worms anyway right now, they will go where they can tolerate. (save worms in small bucket or tub vermicomposter indoors over the winter — more about that later)

We’ll need to discuss subdividing your plant list to similar/same needs groups. blueberry definitely can’t go with vegetables since it needs significantly acid pH soil, for example. Also, anything perennial should be kept separate from annuals.


...Aged manure can be used relatively quickly (1 month), but you need to wait as much as 3 to 6 months for fresh to break down. One way to take advantage of the bounty of the aged manure Is to explore strawbale gardening in that top portion of your bed. Straw is an easy to breakdown carbon source.

odSteve
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Hi,
Thank you, everyone, for the welcome and replies. Here's a picture of my raised bed. It's now half full. As you can see it holds a lot of dirt. Hopefully I can finish filling it in the next couple weeks.

Per your suggestion Applestar, in the filled half of the bed I added about 50 large night crawlers from the local bait shop and a couple hundred red wigglers from eBay. If they like old cow manure, they will love it here. But those worms seemed like nothing compared to the size of the bed.

The top half of the bed is a 50% mixture of old cow manure, some straw, and some dirt, and 50% some type of un-nutritious potting soil. This potting soil was given free to everyone in the community last year - all you could carry free for one day - from a multi-million dollar pot-growing endeavor the federal government shut down. I filled my little pickup truck several times that day. But everyone I've talked to really is not very happy with this potting soil - seems like nothing grows well in it. Seems to be mostly perlite, some sand and something dark and rich looking - perhaps peat moss, but I just don't know. It dries out very fast. I use it like I would pure perlite. Mixed with my cow manure mixture, in this bed it seems to be a very good combination of drainage and moisture retention.

I have not bought any type of soil additive, such as mushroom compost etc because I would need so much of it for a bed this size, the price would quickly become prohibitive. And nobody around here sells organic straw or hay. The rancher I get my cow manure mixture from does not spray his hay with anything, but needs all he grows for his own cows.

We've had no spring this year - it went from snow on the ground 4 weeks ago to a week of high 70's *F to 2 weeks of high 80's *F and now high 90's *F. So I have not got done as much as I wanted to accomplish by this time.

I intended to make 3 raised beds, high enough it would not hurt my back to work them, and keep the dogs and rabbits out. But with the current price of lumber that is not going to happen. Such a shame my soil is so bad I could not just rototill it and plant directly into the ground.

Originally I was planning to plant half this bed with blue berries, black berries etc and half with veggies, carrots, celery etc but now not sure that is what I want to do. Apparently blue berries need a much more acidic soil that most vegetables. And from what I understand, black berries spread by underground roots. I don't want the berry plants taking over the whole bed.
So I was thinking . . . I have an under-counter sized refrigerator that does not work. Perhaps if I took off the door and removed the motor, compressor and other parts, I could lay it on its back and use it as a big container for the blue berry plants. And get another full-sized refrigerator from the local recycling yard, do the same thing, and use it for the black berry plants. Strawberries and grapes are the only two other perennials I was initially thinking about growing. Your thoughts?

Iamafan26 : Sorry, but I don’t think I understand the keyhole gardening concept, or at least how to apply it to my raised bed setup. Perhaps you can re-explain it again now that you see what I’m working with. Basically I’m treating the entire raised bed as a compost bin, at least until its ready to plant in. Then I’ll make a separate dedicated compost bin. And unfortunately right now everything is at different stages of decomposition. And the bottom of the bed is open, except for quarter-inch screen I put down first to keep gophers and moles out of the raised bed. I don’t think (but I could be wrong) with the open bottom, then logs and sticks, then all the potting soil/perlite added and seepage between the wood slats, I don’t think drainage will be a problem.
Compost from five different sources – does cow manure and hay count as two of those sources? What about my potting soil – it’s in the raised bed so does that count as a third source? Or the worms – they produce worm castings? And the logs and branches – does that also count as a source? What might be some readily available compost sources you can recommend? I’m a new gardener trying to learn the basics (but I’m learning fast) so sorry for the dumb questions but I really don’t know what sources you recommend.

Thank you all for your help.

odSteve
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I could not find the edit key so here's the picture of the raised garden I'm building . . .
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Raised Bed 1.jpg

odSteve
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The raised bed is actually level. It's just the camera is tilted. The bed is 20 ft long by 4 ft wide by 30 inches high. Not pretty but practical . . . I hope.
Last edited by odSteve on Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

imafan26
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The concept of a keyhole garden to is build it with whatever you have on hand.

It is basically 6 ft in diameter with a wedge cut out to make access to the central compost bin easier. It is a lasagna type garden that is built in layers.

Sticks and sometimes tin cans on the bottom for a drainage layer and then layers of browns (straw and dried leaves) and greens (kitchen waste, green leaves, manure. End with a brown layer.

The six foot diameter is the approximate area that water can reach from the central compost bin.

In Africa, the bin was built of sticks or baskets.

In other places chicken wire or wire fencing replaced the sticks.

The perimeter can be made from whatever is available.

Stones, CMU tiles, even corrugated sheets.



This is a keyhole concept bed. You would basically orient your beds to make them more reachable.

If this were a 10x10 bed, you would have to walk in the bed to reach the plants in the middle.

By orienting 4wx10Lx2h beds in this "C" pattern, you can maximize your reach and you will have a 2 ft walkway in the middle.

You would still use the same 100 sq ft but you would not have to have soil in the 2 ft space and you would not have to walk in the garden or create a path to get to the middle of the keyhole garden bed.

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applestar
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- You can adopt ond aspect of the Keyhole Garden concept and bury worm feeding compost towers .. maybe every 4 or 5 feet. Easily made with a bucket or 4” pvc drilled with holes or simpler yet, use a pvc “drain tile” tube. If you cap the drain tile pipes at the bottom, this might be a way to collect the worms for the winter in an indoor bin/vermicomposting — I envision just pulling up the pipes with feeding worms inside, and putting them sideways in your storage tote composter(s) filled with bedding. It’s nice to have the vermicompost for growing seedlings in spring.


- I really think you can just plant the blackberry by the fence ( if there is nothing worrying on the other side including neighbor who likes to use pesticides and herbicides). You can set up eyebolt and wire trellising system on the fence posts if it’s your own fence… or drive T-posts about a foot in.

- Blueberries are only “active” during the fruiting period so in addition to the pH, it would a a colossal waste of space. It also needs to be net-covered to protect from birds and other berry thieves so it really works better to have its own space. I would not plant in a container — that adds own problems, but a separate raised bed for it would be a good way to corral and control. It has great fall leaf colors so it makes good edible landscaping.

I’m on iphone now and can’t check fit your location if you’ve put it in your profile. If you are in zone 7 of warmer, you can grow rabbit eye blueberries which grow into tall shrubs and fruit higher up - no bending - so can go planted in the ground.

SQWIB
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My advice to another gardener Plant cover crops.
Don't worry about filling it, but for now, Try a mix with legumes and oats.
Crimson clover and oats, let this grow all summer and early fall, it will die back after a hard frost or two.
In the spring top with some compost/manure 4-6 weeks before planting.
Don't sweat the worms, they will come

What would I do if it was my garden,
I would just plant whatever I wanted, mulch heavily, terminate (chop and Drop) at the end of the season, then plant a cover crop.
I wouldn't worry about filling it, that will come in time.

Bottom line is, get something planted.

A note on composting.
What I have been doing with clay soil that has been dug up is saving it to 5 gallon buckets, then Everytime I compost some greens, I add in shredded cardboard and some clay soil.
Another note on clay soil, when I do weekly weeding and trimming, I'll top lightly with clay soil.
don't throw away clay soil, it is a lot more beneficial than what everyone says and it gets a bum rap, it's loaded with minerals.

imafan26
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Clay soil does not have a lot of nutrients. It tends to be older weathered soils. However, as noted by others, it does have the potential to be very productive if you add a lot of organic matter to improve the tilth and nutrient holding capacity. It is important to also assess the drainage. Clay can be fixed, bad drainage is harder to deal with.

You have a nice raised bed. It is taller than most so it will take more material to fill, but it is at a comfortable height to work without doing a lot of bending. It will be good for smaller plants and root crops. For taller plants, like corn or tomatoes, I would need a ladder to reach the harvest. Those are better in a lower raised bed.

Wood is a popular material for bed construction. Here, it would be too costly and wood rots or the termites would eat it. It also takes some carpentry skills. I have used CMU dry laid tiles that are reinforced with rebar. It requires minimum skills. Basically carrying and leveling tiles to a string line. It lasts a long time and does not rot. It does not leach enough to cause any issues.

My problem was then, it was the first garden bed I made. I made the rookie mistake of building the bed 3 feet from the solid CMU fence. Only vanda and dragon fruit will go near a hot wall. The rest of the plants leaned away from the wall to get away from it. It is still standing over twenty years later. Rambler roses and citrus will grow in it. A couple of my citrus trees have escaped their pot so they will have to be cut out.

odSteve
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Hi, and thank you for the replies. I think a keyhole garden concept would work better when I build my second and third beds.

I don't think I can overwinter the red wiggler worms. I don't have a garage or basement and don't really want them in the house. But they might survive the winter in the bed, depending how cold it gets. I just plan on buying more red wigglers in the early spring, not mid-year like I did this time. The night crawlers are local and somehow survive extreme freezing weather just fine.

But I have another problem . . . Some weeds are starting to come up in my bed, which is ok, but their leaves are yellowish. With all the manure and potting soil I have in this bed, good sunlight and water, I would think their leaves would be a dark green.
I recognize the weeds but not sure what they are called - I think Malva or Cheeseweed, but not sure. I just know from past experience this weed's leaves should be exceptionally green. This makes me fear I may have poisoned my entire bed by mixing in this potting soil with everything else. Or perhaps the ph is very wrong for most plants? I was thinking just apply a 20-20-20 fertilizer and see if that corrects the problem? I don't want to grow veggies on a chemical fertilizer but I need to experiment to understand the problem. What do you suggest to diagnose the problem?
This potting soil I used came from a very sophisticated multi-million dollar pot growing operation closed down by the federal government. This potting soil was made exclusively for growing pot plants - does that make it bad to use for other plants? I know other things do not grow well, if at all, in it alone. But I thought because of its exceptional drainage ability, mixed with cow manure, a little clay soil and straw, it would be an excellent additive to my raised bed soil.
What are your thoughts on the reason for the yellowish weed leaves? What can I do to improve the soil for planting next year? I know I can get large bags of clover seeds from the local feed store. But I don't want to fight a never-ending battle with clover weeds in the following years.
I think I have the drainage exactly correct for this size bed. But what am I doing so wrong to cause weeds to have yellowish leaves?
I don't know where the night crawlers went, but with a little digging the red wigglers seem to be happy. Do I just need to give them more time to transform the soil into something good for the plants?
Your help is appreciated. Thank you.

odSteve
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I'd also like to see samples of your CMU dry laid tile raised bed. I am unsure at this point how I want to make my second and third raised bed.
Yes mostly leaf and root crops will be grown in this bed. Definitely not corn ... but my second or third bed will be shorter.
I can't find the link to edit or add to my profile.
Location: Northeastern corner of California
Elevation: 4000 ft
Zone: 5

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applestar
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If those weeds Just came up they may have been struggling through the depths in darkness and may green up now that they are in sunlight. If that doesn’t happen, we can discuss other possibilities — maybe take a picture or two.

You can access your profile via the icon (mine shows miniature of my avatar - not sure what it looks like if avatar isn’t setup — a person-looking icon?) next to the magnifying glass (forum search) at top of the page, or by accessing the three-line menu on mobile devices and scrolling down to “user control panel” … there might be a wrench icon.

:lol: at your reluctance to have worms in the house! That’s OK, it took my family about 3 winters to let me move some from the garage to my “green room” — a room that is mostly dedicated to overwintering plants during the cold season. And that was only under “state of emergency” when we had an exceptionally low winter freezing conditions threatening temperatures in the teens in the unheated garage, and they let me “:cry: save the wormy-worms”.

odSteve
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Hi,
I just ordered a camera from eBay so I will no longer be dependent on others to take pictures. Not sure when it will get here. Then I can post pictures of the weeds, and anything else.

The condition of the weeds has me very concerned. It's not the seed leaves, but the true leaves that are yellow with green veins. Some weeds are more yellow than others and overall just seem to be stunted in growth for what is usually a very vigorous growing weed. I expected the weeds to all be growing vigorously and becoming a nuisance to keep under control.
I wanted this to be some of the best soil in the county, and capable of growing incredible veggies - far superior to the supermarket offerings. But I think I destroyed that possibility with that potting soil. Unfortunately there is only one nursery in this city, and he doesn't really know much. So I can only guess on what to do to fix this soil. Such a disappointing start. Perhaps the soil will fix itself sitting overwinter. I never realized I had such a brown thumb . .

imafan26
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I think the manures, especially the fresher ones may be robbing some nutrients as that and some of the unfinished material breaks down. Chlorosis is usually a micro nutrient deficiency but may be caused by a high pH making the nutrients less available rather than a lack of the nutrient itself. It might be helpful to get a soil test for pH and nutrients. If you are near a land grant university, the extension service can point you to where you can get a soil test. Tests done by the extension service is usually very reasonable, but depending on where you live, they may only be available at soil labs.

odSteve
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Thank you for the info. Unfortunately there are no universities or soil labs anywhere in the county. In this big county the cows outnumber the people - population less than 9,000 in 4,200 sq miles. But I did find out a bit more about the potting soil I used. It was never intended to be nutritious as it was all about feeding the cannabis plants exactly the chemicals intended for the results wanted, and nothing more. So really the only thing of any nutritional value to the plants in the raised bed is the manure itself. Can plants thrive on old manure alone?

imafan26
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You can treat your garden like a lasagna bed. It really needs more good garden soil and more carbon. If you can get straw (not hay), or add some dried leaves, cardboard (shredded), wood chips. Mix it up and wet it down and let it compost. Move about a 6-8 inch layer of the material to provide at least 12 inches from the top of the bed. Level and layer thick cardboard in a single layer over the top. On top of that put in Mel's mix

1 part good garden loam (topsoil)
1 part finished compost (not manure and made from multiple sources)
1 part drainage material (vermiculite or builder's sand.

Mix it all on a tarp with 2 cups of all purpose fertilizer. 10-10-10 is good.
If you use fertilizers with higher numbers than 10, you will need to decrease the amount of starter fertilizer. For plants that live longer than 50 days, side dressings of nitrogen would be required. I do not use organic fertilizer in containers. Your bed is large enough, but most smaller pots have a soil less mix and not soil in them so they do not support sufficient good microorganisms to convert organic fertilizer into useable form at the right time for most fast growing vegetables. Your bed's fertility is complicated because of all the manure and the various stages of decomposition and without soil testing it will be hard to figure it out.

I like to use citrus food 6-4-6 with micros. The nitrogen is slow release and I like to add micros. I have a lot of potted plants including a lot of citrus, roses, gardenia, and tomatoes with like a slightly acidic soil and some of the acid loving plants like the roses, citrus, and gardenia need micros. So do beets,they need a little bit of boron. Rather than have different kinds of fertilizers for each type of plant, I use this as it works for most of my plants. I still have some specialty fertilizers for things like orchids. Root crops need to get more potassium. In my general potting mix 60/40 peat moss/perlite, I would add about 1/4 cup of osmocote to a five gallon bucket of potting mix as a starter fertilizer. My in ground garden is tested. it only needs a small amount of nitrogen and nothing else. Other complete fertilizers with micros will also work.
The picture was taken in September 2020 when I was clearing the jungle in the back yard.

I don't have a camera. My computer refused to talk to my old camera. I use the camera in my phone. I upload it to the computer by plugging in the charger usb to the usb minibar on my computer. It charges the phone and uploads pictures. I edit the photo size on the computer to about 60% and that is usually small enough to upload. There are easier ways to drag and drop to upload, but I have not mastered that skill. Pictures can be sent directly from the phone, but I haven't mastered that skill either.
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dry laid hollow tile reinforced with rebar was laid in 1990.  This picture was taken when I was cleaning up the back yard and shows part of the bed that extends some 30 ft x 3 ft wide parallel to the cmu wall.
dry laid hollow tile reinforced with rebar was laid in 1990. This picture was taken when I was cleaning up the back yard and shows part of the bed that extends some 30 ft x 3 ft wide parallel to the cmu wall.

odSteve
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hi,
I mentioned that despite what I thought was great veggie raised bed garden soil, the weeds look yellowish, stunted and unhealthy for what elsewhere is a very vigorous green weed. I haven't planted anything yet but if I can't grow healthy weeds, don't think I have much hope for growing anything else. I've put various things in the bed as said previously, but the top 15 or so inches is just a 60% combination of soil and old cow manure, and a 40% potting soil great for drainage only, but otherwise an un-nutritious and useless potting soil. I've used this potting soil elsewhere in the yard and plants turn yellow growing in it.
I still like to believe I have a great soil foundation with all this manure, soil and potting soil, but clearly I'm missing some vital nutrient. The soil its self holds moisture but drains very well and is very easy to dig. The texture is right but its missing some nutrient. What bulk item can I add so things grow green?

odSteve
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how do I post a picture? I can't find the browse / upload link?

Edit:
Now I got a duplicate picture ... I'll figure it out eventually. . .
Last edited by odSteve on Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

odSteve
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Yellow weeds:
Raised_Bed_Weeds.JPG
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Raised_Bed_Weeds.JPG

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odSteve wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:35 pm
how do I post a picture? I can't find the browse / upload link?
Here you go! :D

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=3724

odSteve
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webmaster wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:41 pm
odSteve wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:35 pm
how do I post a picture? I can't find the browse / upload link?
Here you go! :D

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=3724
Thank you.

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applestar
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Are you trying to do this without buying commercial fertilizers? Are you trying for self-sufficient garden or organic no chemical garden?

Are you a meticulous detail oriented person that prefer proven methods/techniques, or are you more of an intuitive trial and error, seat of your pants kind of person?

The reason I ask is that I think most typical suggestion at this point would be to get a simple soil test kit to analyze/measure/get a sense for the basic NPK and pH. Or you could send away for full analysis by a lab. (They would give you instructions for or send you a kit for collecting samples)

I’m very much an intuitive trial and error but detail obsessive, and while my “method” may not work as well for you newly assembled raised garden soil mixture, I get the sense of my garden’s pH by the kinds of weeds that grow abundantly vs. the kinds that are feeble.

I basically have tried commercial organic fertilizers and compared with home blended N-P-K (Nitrogen-Phosphorus-Potassium) and micro-nutrient sources, typically from what you can get from the feedstore, and lately have been generally trialing the fermented and cultured beneficial, bacterial and fungal microbial soup and soil amendments as the basis for the nutrient sources, and am currently in the midst of trying to blend up and culture my own fertilizer.

odSteve
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applestar wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:13 pm
Are you trying to do this without buying commercial fertilizers? Are you trying for self-sufficient garden or organic no chemical garden?

Are you a meticulous detail oriented person that prefer proven methods/techniques, or are you more of an intuitive trial and error, seat of your pants kind of person?

The reason I ask is that I think most typical suggestion at this point would be to get a simple soil test kit to analyze/measure/get a sense for the basic NPK and pH. Or you could send away for full analysis by a lab. (They would give you instructions for or send you a kit for collecting samples)

I’m very much an intuitive trial and error but detail obsessive, and while my “method” may not work as well for you newly assembled raised garden soil mixture, I get the sense of my garden’s pH by the kinds of weeds that grow abundantly vs. the kinds that are feeble.

I basically have tried commercial organic fertilizers and compared with home blended N-P-K (Nitrogen-Phosphorus-Potassium) and micro-nutrient sources, typically from what you can get from the feedstore, and lately have been generally trialing the fermented and cultured beneficial, bacterial and fungal microbial soup and soil amendments as the basis for the nutrient sources, and am currently in the midst of trying to blend up and culture my own fertilizer.
I would prefer not to buy commercial, chemical fertilizers. But other than expense I see no problem buying things like worm castings etc. It's just that with a bed this size, I would need so much it would break the bank. I would like to eventually become a self-sufficient, organic, chemical-free veggie gardener.

I'm very meticulous about some things but not others; For example I was extremely meticulous about the material I made my bed from - no treated wood, corrugated sheet metal or anything that might leach unwanted chemicals into the veggie garden soil. But on the other side of the property I use old railroad ties for landscaping. Can't get much worse than the chemicals they leach.
I prefer proven methods and techniques but prefer trying to do them one better by doing them my way. I'll hear what seems a sensible suggestion and then take it to the extreme. For example, most raised beds are only 12 to 24 in high but I created my first bed 30 in high - my reasoning - to have deep, rich, lose, highly nutritious rock-free soil, to save my back working the garden, and to keep dogs, rabbits etc out.

I'm looking for soil that will produce highly nutritious fruits and vegetables - not just produce healthy, red round tomatoes, as an example. A commercial tomato plant can be healthy and produce large, beautiful red tomatoes but there could be a world of difference between its flavor and nutritional content with that of a home-grown tomato.
I'll try most anything if it seems to make sense. They say cow manure is good so I'm trying the dirt and cow manure from around cow feeding pens. I still think this must have some good nutritional value. Potting soil is supposed to be good, so I got some free truck loads of that. But I'm thinking that may be an error. I now think I would be just as well off, and perhaps better using just plane perlite. I have not seen anything grow good in it, or with it as a mulch - including cactus. To summarize, most everything I have done so far is really trial and error as I have no experience in any of this. And I don't know anyone who does have experience, except what I've read on this web site and seen on YouTube videos.

My newly assembled raised garden bed soil mixture is not doing well. Where do you suggest I buy a soil test kit? The one and only local nursery in my city does not have them. I just get a sense from the way weeds are growing something is wrong.

". . .microbial soup and soil amendments as the basis for the nutrient sources, and am currently in the midst of trying to blend up and culture my own fertilizer. . ." I would surely like to hear more about that.

Thank you for your help and suggestions.

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applestar
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I don’t think you need more large quantity of premium ingredients. It would help to inoculate the bed with good microbes since it would take a month or more to let that happen on its own.

I’m going to point you to our admittedly long-winded, meandering discussion about “Aerated Compost Tea” — it’s an excellent place to start.

Also, try a forum search for ‘Bokashi’ … here, I made a link for you

Then if you pop over to the sometimes random posts about my garden in the Vegetable Garden Progress forum, I’ve babbled quite a but about what I’ve been doing this year…. :>

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applestar
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BTW If you just want to buy some ORGANIC fertilizers to start with, I like ones that contain added probiotics, mycorrhizae and microbes. These will help inoculate your garden with good microbes.

They can be stretched by culturing them — in other words increasing their numbers … kind of like proofing bread dough (yeast) or making yogurt — by making actively aerated “compost” (fertilizer) tea.


There are regional favorites — I don’t remember where you said you are located….

I usually get Espoma, but Neptune’s Harvest fish and kelp products are good too (and Coast of Maine lobster compost from same region) … I believe Dr Earth is midwest and then there is another brand from the west coast that I can’t remember atm (they come in cardboard boxes)…. Oh and the old favorite Alaska liquid fish emulsion, too…. I once came across their fish meal fertilizer — looked like fishfood pellets but very fishy smelling — on inventory sale at a local garden center — only time I ever saw it anywhere but it did wonders for my garden when I was growing corn (very high N).

It’s easiest to just start with equal N-P-K plus micronutrients.

Also, unless you live in area with highly alkaline native soil, dolomitic lime is always a good bet for adding calcium and minerals.

odSteve
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Thank you so much applestar - you're a star in my book.
I haven't been able to reply as I've been studying all the info you provided.
Yes I definitely want to get this kick-started. Then later make a separate compost pile to keep it going.
I've never before heard of any of those fish fertilizers before . . . I have so much to learn.

I have yet to really turn all the soil over as I want to first find what will make those weeds green. Then I will turn them under. By next spring I'd like to get this soil as complete as I can with all the nutrients any veggie plant could ever need. Then I can concentrate on planting, and not on what will make things green and healthy and ultra-nutritious.

Living in the north-eastern corner of California (zone 5), the nearest town of any size is Klamath, Oregon, about a two hour drive each way. So I have to order anything that's "special" over the internet. That being said, what would you recommend I try as for kick-starting this raised vegetable bed so at least the weeds grow green and lush? My choices are in the two links below and don't be timid in naming brand names. If it makes sense, I want to at least give it a try. Note both links are very long . . .

https://www.google.com/search?q=alaska+ ... 80&bih=625

https://www.google.com/search?q=Alaska+ ... 80&bih=625

Hopefully this forum web site did not add spaces or in some way make the links unusable. Thank you for your help.

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applestar
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I enjoy talking organic choices and I obsess over ingredients and what they are good for :lol: :wink: So the brand I couldn’t remember was among the listing sold by Peaceful Valley. — it’s “Down to Earth”

Peaceful Valley comes up in a lot of my searches and I think their information is solid. I read and watch a lot of their material. I would use them as a source if we were not on opposite coasts. So note I’ve never bought from them myself. BUT they would be regionally local to you.

Fish fertilizer was just an example but not what I recommend for you here in this instance because it’s high nitrogen and not balanced.

I would probably go with simple though they have wide selection — Down to Earth has a vegetable garden blend that is 4-4-4 — equal numbers for the N-P-K. That might seem low if you are only used to seeing conventional chemical fertilizers, but organic fertilizers are generally slow release and the plants will use what they need. I mean this is what I would start with.

Two other specific blends I might try are their Bio-Live 5-4-2 or Bio-Fish 7-7-2. These specifically mention containing microbes. I would use these sparingly as microbe source (spoonful at a time per plant or add to seed starting or container plant potting mix, or culture as actively aerated compost/fertilizer tea) while using more of the other one generally (broadcast for the area according to instructions and work into the bed)

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Yellow leaves for the most part are caused by watering issues, either too much or too little. The other reason would be nutritional. The nutritional part, I think could still be related to nitrogen. Although you have a lot manure in there, you have a lot of carbon as well sucking it up. Organic nitrogen is not readily available. If your mix is alkaline, nitrogen will be even less available. It is really hard to say without a soil test.

Cow manure is about 3-2-1 NPK ratio. However, if manure is not composted well or mixed with new stuff, then you should not plant edibles that will be harvested in less than 120 days because it can also contain pathogens. Horse manure depends on what the horses are eating. Horse manure is about 6 -2.5-4.5 NPK plus it also contains a good amount of micro nutrients. However, it may also contain residues from wormers and medications given to the horses. It also may contain bedding and straw or hay (hay may contain weed seeds). It also depends if the stable pile was aged or a mix of old and new manure and urine. Contamination of aged manure means you have to treat the whole thing as fresh manure. The numbers are low, but they are even lower than you can imagine. Since this represents total values, not what is immediately available.

Although people say that compost is neutral. It is not. At least not compost that is made here. We don't have a lot of oak or pine trees or deciduous trees in general to acidify compost. We have a lot of palms and tropical trees with different characteristics. Coconut husks can take 2 years to decompose. Compost behaves neutrally, even when it is not because it buffers the soil pH. However, composts that are high in calcium or mixes that have been limed, chicken manure (chickens are fed calcium for stronger egg shells. GIGO.)

Composts may start out more acidic but the decomposers will consume most of the nitrogen. Nitrogen in the compost is consumed, and in the end it will test on the alkaline end of things. This is especially true of young composts that have not aged long enough. This is how it is with the compost from the green waste facility near me. They sell compost that is still steaming and still have actinomycetes fibers in the compost and you need to let it sit about a month for it to cool down and the actinomycetes to go away. It has been tested by a lab. The NPK of that is also low about N =1.5-2.0 P0=5-1.5, K= 1-2. That is why compost is not really a fertilizer.

The analysis of anything you see on a label, especially and organic one if there is one at all, only measures the total amount, not what is available immediately. (Organic fertilizers are not standardized. You actually have to analyze each batch to get a good reading.)

People want to be organic, but it is not cheap. It is actually easier to buy conventional fertilizer with a guaranteed analysis than to lug bags of compost and organic fertilizer around to get close to the same NPK as a handful of synthetic fertilizer. You also have to be careful adding manures since they can contain a lot of salt. Although, I have heard that organic fertilizers at least for farms have improved a lot. If you are in a rural area, you must have a farm store or ag supplier. You can get large 50 lb bags of fertilizer. We did use sustane 4-6-4 and bone meal to supplement the aquaponic plants. Iron was added to the fish tanks, not for the benefit of the fish, but to make sure the lettuce got the iron.

If you do things organically, you have to be patient. It takes time to build up the soil microbe population and it takes a truckload of the right mix of organic materials to balance a bed. The first thing you should consider planting should be maybe a cover crop or at least a crop of legumes that will not demand a lot of nutrients.

I think your bed is too raw yet. It would be better if you turned it. Otherwise it might be better to let it sit awhile to settle out and give the microbes a chance to work their magic. If you want to plant sooner, you will have to add at least 4 inches of good fertile soil and fertilizer to the top so you can plant shallow crops.

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applestar
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@imafan has really good points.

I went back to the thread about my old project to see how I did it the first year — it’s been a while and I was fuzzy on the details —

:arrow: Subject: Pallet sided high raised bed hugelkultur experiment

odSteve
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I agree the bed is probably too raw right now to do much with. But it seems like overnight the growth on a couple grass type weeds is exploding - they started getting huge and today I pulled most of them out. And the yellow leafy weeds (pictured above) are now just slowly turning more green.
At this time I don't consider weed seeds to be a reason to not use something. On the contrary, if I see some weeds sprout up green and healthy, I consider that a good omen. The soil is light and fluffy and I don't need to bend over to pull the weeds, so its almost fun pulling weeds out.
But yes I do wonder if dry cow urine mixed with the manure might pose a problem. But I have no idea what I could do about that.
Also glad I don't have to contend with palm tree leaves etc. They seem like they are just fiber and would take forever to decompose.

One time someone gave me a box of fresh horse manure. I'll never use that again. I can't put my finger on it, but I just don't like the way it is. I don't like its texture, or color, and weeds don't like it either. I'm glad it will eventually be under 15 inches of the cow manure mix.

It's only July and I don't plan to plant anything until next spring after snow and freezing weather is past, probably in March or possibly April. (I have a very short growing season). That's at least 7 months away so that, I hope, should be enough time for the soil to settle down.

I still have much reading and studying to do. But what are your thoughts about adding massive amounts of nutrition to the soil right now? For example working in a couple bags of organic alfalfa pellets, and perhaps some fish meal fertilizer, and bio-live for microbes etc. If I add everything right now, even if its too strong and would burn the roots, in 6 or so months I'm sure the "burn" would be gone. If I add enough of everything, then the veggies won't be lacking anything. And if the soil contains all possible minerals and nutrients, then any vegetables I plant should grow strong and nutritious. You agree?
Thanks.

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applestar
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Actually, if you really weren’t going to try to grow crops until next year, the thing to do is to focus on building up the soil. Excess nitrogen just ends up out gassing or leaching away. (put simply, it would get stinky, moldy, and possibly slimy without the carbon to balance it).

If you want to mix in those nitrogen-heavy fertilizers, do it in the fall and balance with fall leaves along with other nutrients, but you’ll still need to add some nitrogen, etc. at planting time in spring.

Go back to what SQWIB suggested and grow easy to process covercrops. Something that winterkills is easiest. Something that doesn’t become massive and would need to be chopped up/unwieldy to turn under or even use as surface mulch. You can also just don’t let them mature/get that big but use as green manure.

Alternatively, you can just grow those weeds that spring up, and let them grow to just before blooming or seed development, but you may attract unintended unwanted pests and inadvertently allow them to complete their lifecycle/allow them to drop dormant stages in the raised bed.

Another possibility is seeding the bed with certain kinds of mushrooms.

But there IS a whole growing season for crops starting right now, before the frost arrives…. July is time to get ready/start them for those of us expecting frost in October or November. You could also be growing fast maturing easy summer crops like bush beans and add the whole plant material after harvesting as well as (my preference) deeper rooted crops to add their roots as organic matter. That would include pole and runner beans, cucumbers and summer squash, swiss chard and komatsuna maybe, etc.

Anything heat-tolerant with varieties that mature in 50 to 60 days would be a definite, up to 70 days possibly. If you want to a bit more challenge, broccoli. You could possibly squeeze in lettuce, radish, turnip, and spinach when it cools down a bit.

imafan26
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I would try to get rid of the weeds in the bed. water and weed until nothing more comes up. It can be a pain to weed around plants in the garden and weeds will compete for water and nutrients. I would turn what is in the box to get it to decompose faster every week if possible. Cover it with weed block, burlap bags or plastic sheeting after you get it evenly moist. It would be like managing a compost pile. The cover will contain the heat especially if you use plastic sheeting and that will help kill weed seeds at least in the top few inches. Putting in fertilizer now would only feed the weeds. A cover crop would be best to over winter. Here I use buckwheat for biomass and inoculated cow pea (actually pink eyed peas), for nitrogen fixing. They are tilled in at flowering. You have other choices like winter rye. Cover crops keep weeds down while benefiting the soil microbial life.

You have a lot of manure in the beds so you won't need much more fertilizer now. The nitrogen in the manure will feed the decomposers while they do their work. The non-soluble nitrogen will be released slowly over a period of 1-2 years. It is still only 0.5-2% nitrogen over the two year period. Organic gardeners must continually add compost and carbon sources to keep the microbes going. They will naturally slow down when the weather cools.

Nitrogen is a limiting factor of growth and it is the hardest thing to get organically. The best sources are animal sources. Plants require more nitrogen when they are actively growing and you will need to supplement nitrogen with fish emulsion, or blood meal because organic fertilizers don't always release nitrogen when the plants need it. So, you will need a fast organic nitrogen source when you plant your crop.

It takes about 2 years starting from scratch for organic garden yields to be comparable to conventional gardens. Shorter times if the soil is fairly fertile to start with and has a good microbial population.

Organic plants are usually healthier in terms of growth. Nutrition wise, there is no difference according to the science. How you grow your plants, the pesticides you use and particulates in your source materials you should be able to control. Organically grown produce especially in the first two years usually are smaller and have lower yields than conventional gardens.

I've done trench composting and added 5 inches of the soil we dug out on top. Covered it with weed block and kept it moist for 5-6 months. No turning was involved. The thing with turning is that it really is not the synthetic fertilizer that kills soil organisms, but the fact that synthetic fertilizer provides nitrogen but no carbon and the soil organisms need both for a balanced healthy population. The biggest killer of all is tilling. Tilling does kill soil organisms.

It took 5 months for the compost to break down and be usable. I did add sulfate of ammonia after the seedlings had true leaves. The compost is alkaline (we had it tested.) and nitrogen is low because most of the nitrogen was used up to make the compost. Sulfate of ammonia is perfect for adding just nitrogen and sulfur to acidify the soil (it takes 6 months to effectively change pH.) I got a really nice crop of chard, lettuce, and kale and the size was comparable to conventional planting. However, the fertility was not long lived.

After the first crop, I tried replanting adding finished compost for more carbon. The second crop was half the size. I had to trench compost it again. It is just not practical for me with a 365 day growing year to be able to plant a plot for only 4-5 months at a time. In a colder place, it is fine, you won't have crops in winter, but here, space is valuable and letting it go fallow for that long does not make sense. At most, I will solarize the soil in July-August when it is really too hot to be out in the yard anyway.

odSteve
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I'm still reading and studying things posted here and elsewhere. Weeds are not really much of a problem. The bed is too deep for most of them to come up. And I'm sure many were trampled / destroyed in the dirt by the cows in the feeding areas. So I don't have more than a couple dozen at most, and about half of those have already been pulled.
For the most part right now I just see treating this bed as a compost pile that I will eventually plant in. Once I get the other half of the bed filled with manure/soil I will be turning it all on a regular basis. That's why I have not got a cover crop started yet. And any residual weeds will be up-side-down under the soil then. Hopefully I will not be killing the worms with the shovel when I turn the dirt, if they are still there and alive.

Recently came across the topic of bio-char. I never heard of it before. But every video I watch on that topic (how to make it and inoculate it with the proper nutrition) is very different from the others. What are everyone's opinions here on bio-char?
Thank you.

odSteve
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Hi,
I'm so excited - I have worms! While waiting for the rest of the raised bed soil to be delivered, I occasionally pull up a couple weeds just to see how the soil I do have is progressing. I'm almost out of weeds, but today, two of the weeds I pulled had several earth worms among their roots. First time in a long while since I've seen any. Perhaps its the drop in temperature from triple digits to mid 90's that has brought them close to the surface. But it's nice to see something going right.

odSteve
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Hi,
I think the worms are really starting to do their thing as the level in the bed has dropped about 6 inches the past month. Although in the 70's to 90's during the day, the temps are now dropping into the 20's *F at night. As I mentioned previously, in the top half of the bed I mostly have a combination of 40% old cow manure, 30% soil, 5% hay, and 25% of un-nutritious potting soil that acts like pure perlite. In my front yard I have some white mushrooms coming up. My question is should I transplant some of them to my raised bed - not to eat but just to help break down the cow manure in the soil? Are possibly toxic mushrooms good to help break down the soil where I intend to plant veggies next year, or should I just keep them away from my veggie garden's soil? Or perhaps just plant some edible mushrooms from the supermarket and see what happens?
Thanks.



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