jul1799
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natural fertilizer for raised beds

Good day,

I have started my raised beds with triple mix.
From different sources I have read different ways to fertilize/enhance soil further:
* Peat moss
* Peat moss promix BX (has vermiculite and some other stuff) In the same time it is 4 times more expensive then regular peat moss
* sheep compost
* cow compost
* egg shells (dried and crushed)
* vermiculite
*shrimp compost


What would be optimal solution for vegetables?

thank you

imafan26
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I don't know what triple mix is.

Usually if you are using Mel's mix
1 part peat moss, 1 part compost from 4 or more sources, 1 part perlite or vermiculite

Promix is expensive and it contains micorrhyzzae which are good soil bacteria you want around the root zone of the plant. However if the bag is old or it has been parked in the sun for a while, don't bother, the bacteria are probably dead.

Peat moss provides good support for roots it is essentially an acidic compost but does not contain a lot of nutrients.

Compost contains a small amount of nutrients but if it is relatively freshly made it will contain quite a bit of soil organisms. You can compost your own or you can get compost from a composting facility. Bagged composts are older, they work but may not contain as many live soil organisms.

Now for the fertilizer:

You can use a composted manure take your pick . Note NPK for organic fertilizers are low and represent total amounts not the amounts that are available to plants. Nutrients are released slowly over a period of week and years. Usually one inch over the surface of the bed. Do not use too much, manures are high in salt.

https://oces.okstate.edu/cleveland/horti ... lizers.pdf
https://extension.unh.edu/resources/fil ... ep5330.pdf

Other sources are organic lawn foods which are mostly nitrogen.
You can also use products like tomato or garden tone by epsoma

Be aware if this is a new garden and you want to garden organically, it takes about 3 years for an organic garden to maximize its production. Mainly becaue of the cumulative effects of the slow release fertilzers and it assumes that more compost and orgnic inputs are added every year or every time you plant.

It will take time to build up the soil community and they will compete with the plants for nutrition, so you will need to supplement with fish emulsion, compost tea, manure tea or fast release fertilizer to give the plants what they need when they need it.

Ideally you want to prep an organic garden in the fall for spring planting or give it at least 6 weeks after fertilizing before you plant.

jul1799
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thank you for reply. In our area we have mostly sheep or cow composted manure, other types are quite rare. Should I get sheep and cow and mix them up?
My backyard is quite small and I do not have place for composer. How I can compost tea or coffee grinds? I also have kombucha, which I have read good for compost, but again without outdoor composer could be tricky.

Last year I have placed some egg shells into soil and did not see any remains in spring. I have collected egg shells from organic eggs again (wash with water, dry, crush). However I am concerned about salmonella as I have washed them with water, not soap.

what is "NPK for organic fertilizers"?

thanks again
Jul

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rainbowgardener
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RE:
Peat moss
* Peat moss promix BX (has vermiculite and some other stuff) In the same time it is 4 times more expensive then regular peat moss
* sheep compost
* cow compost
* egg shells (dried and crushed)
* vermiculite
*shrimp compost

Peat moss helps to loosen soil up and keep it fluffy. It holds on to moisture and it acidifies (which is good if your soil tends to alkaline, not particularly good if your soil is already acid). It contains NO nutrients.

Egg shells are a very slow release form of calcium, otherwise has no other nutrients.

Composted manures are a good, though not super concentrated source of Nitrogen and other nutrients, but as imafan noted slow release. Those nutrients are not available until the manure has broken down further.

Shrimp compost is different, since it isn't manure, it's the shrimp shells. It is a good source of several nutrients and breaks down quicker than anything else on your list.

Vermiculite is a silicate mineral. It also helps lighten/ loosen soil and hold moisture. It also has no nutrients.

So any of these things may be good to add to your soil, if it needs the benefits they confer. But don't delude yourself that even if you have added all of them you have fertilized your plants.

Along with your triple mix and whatever else you add, you need to add something more quick release to feed your vegetables while they are waiting for nutrients in the other stuff to be released. That would include your shrimp compost and alfalfa meal, soy meal, cottonseed meal, blood meal, feather meal, worm castings,

Here's a good article about this stuff: https://www.grow-it-organically.com/orga ... lizer.html

I am in a similar situation. We moved last fall, so I have newly built and filled raised beds. One thing I have found is that watering with diluted (aerated, brewed) compost tea (see this thread https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/vi ... 35&t=17097 if you aren't familiar with it) every couple weeks or so really peps everything up. My personal theory (I don't know how scientific) is that a lot of what you are doing with the compost tea is culturing a whole bunch of beneficial soil microbes. When added to the soil, they help break down all those nutrients that are already there, put them in a form that is available to the plants.

Best wishes! Keep us posted how your garden is doing.

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rainbowgardener
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what is "NPK for organic fertilizers"? NPK are the main nutrients plants require (along with a whole host of minor and trace nutrients) Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Potassium (K is the chemical symbol for potassium; it comes from kalium, the Medieval Latin for potash). So the sentence that was in was saying that most of the organic sources of nutrients are not very concentrated, especially as compared to synthetic fertilizer. But that is OK, because you can use composted manure by the shovelful, where as synthetic ferts have to be used by the tablespoon or they burn your plants.
Last edited by rainbowgardener on Thu May 26, 2016 1:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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rainbowgardener
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I'm trying to imagine what kind of yard doesn't have room for a composter. You can get them with a footprint of 2' x 2'
Image

Here's an article about small composters
https://www.urbanturnip.org/best-small-compost-bins/

Note the last one in that article is a worm factory, worm bin composter. You don't need to buy a fancy one. You can make your own worm bin in any storage tote and it can even be inside:

Image

No reason in the world not to start making your own compost and it is the best thing you can do for your garden.

jul1799
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thank you . I would try to find alfalfa meal, soy meal, cottonseed meal, blood meal, feather meal. I can get blood meal in home depot, I am not sure how much I should add though. I have never seen other types in stores. Does big stores usually carry them? Where people usually buy them?
thanks
Jul

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applestar
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Feed store carries the first three I think. That's where I used to get alfalfa for myself and soy and cotton for my Dad. Now that store has closed so I'll have to find another one that has them on regular basis. Last place I tried doesn't seem to always stock them so they told me to call ahead and check first.

jul1799
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thank you. For all replies

rainbowgardener:
I have read bunch of information about composted tea. Some sources are saying 24 hours is enough, some suggest 2-3 days. The difference would be in kind of bacteria one have at the end. However I did not grasp exact difference. Do you know what would be the difference?

How much do you dilute compost tea prior using it for watering?

thanks a ton. I wish I had learned about tea earlier.

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rainbowgardener
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I don't think any of this is rocket science. And you are right, I have seen anywhere from 24 hrs to three days suggested. I split the difference and do 48 hrs. One way you can tell is that your tea should be getting a bit of foam on it and mine doesn't do that at 24 hrs.

I have heard that you can get rid of the chlorine in your water just by running the bubbler in it for an hour. So that's what I do to get more chlorine free water to dilute it with. Then I just pour about (by eyeball) one part of compost tea into four parts of water. But I just made that up, I'm sure a bit more or less would be fine.

If you check out the compost tea thread I linked to, other people get way more technical about it, add a lot of other stuff in, etc. Mine is very simple and basic, but it has been giving me good results in my new beds. People are amazed how fast everything is growing. The bottom half of my beds are filled with pure composted horse manure. I think the compost tea just helps release a lot of the nutrients from that ...

It helps that my backyard backs onto a horse ranch:
view from deck.jpg


:)

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I am a bit more casual in my soil mixes and fertilizers. Basically for the base, have a mix of things. For drainage I add Black Kow which has sand, and the cheaper top soil I use has sand. Bingo! Mix in some sort(s) of compost. I'm in an urban setting, and go for bagged stuff. Cotton burr (not cotton seed) a preference and some of the others on the dirt aisle at the box store. I check for the broken (discounted) bags of stuff I do use. Usually some sifted dirt/compost from my pile mixed in, along with some worms that call it home. For fertilizer may work in some plant-tone (or other Epsoma product) that has goodies in it and helps with the soil building.

I've been working on the large containers, worked like mini-gardens. If had something, pull out old, clean up a bit, check for worm activity and then don't disturb the bulk of soil. Add some fresh mix, a few more worms. Plant! For tomatoes added plant-tone and powdered lime. I'm trying to remember to add comfrey leaves to the fresh mix. Pick a few green leaves, shred or cut up with scissors and work into soil.

jul1799
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thank you for all replies.
I am working slowly though composted tea thread and other sources. I did read that it is ok to use tea straight up, but I would dilute it. Apparently our local Walmart is not particularly aquarium-friendly, but I am getting there.

Susan: what is plant-tone and powdered lime? where do you get or buy those?
I managed to grow tomatoes just by trimming leafs below fruits. That's all I have done for years. I guess if I feed them properly my results would be way better.


thanks again.
Jul

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Jul, Where are you located? If you put that in your profile could help in some answers and discussions.

As for plant-tone, check the box stores and garden centers for the Epsoma brand fertilizers, dry in bags. There's garden-tone, holly-tone etc. There is one formulated for tomatoes, and in checking package is similar to plant-tone plus calcium, and it costs more. For tomatoes people usually add some lime or egg shells to the specific area where planted. I happened to have a bag of the powdered garden lime from my natural dyeing stuff so use it.

In general and to over simplify, using a mix of various ingredients for your garden bed (or container) usually works. We all develop ways depending on the garden, space, location, budget, time, what's readily available etc. I happen not to do the tea routine (nothing against it), and have healthy plants over all. I also don't do much with veggies, spare a few tomatoes in containers, trying potatoes again in grow bags, chard and spinach.

imafan26
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I have used Scott's organic lawn fertilyzer instead of the more expensive blood meal. It is OMNI certified and contains cottonseed meal and feather meal. and is relatively fast release for an organic fertilzer and it is mostly nitrogen. NPK 11-2-2

The other products which you can use for faster release nitrogen is Sustane. You may have to go to an agricultural supplier for it. It is stinky but gets fast results. We used a combination of 2 parts sustane and one part bone meal that worked well for most plants. It is sold in 50 lb bags. With organic fertilizers you have to use more volume so get the big bag.
https://www.sustane.com/products/lawn-ga ... plant-food
https://www.scotts.com/smg/goprod/scotts ... prod100040

If you want to do things more organically, it is commendable but in the beginning it will cost more than conventional. In the long run it pays off. Once the garden gets going and you can make your own compost and network to find sources of the free manures it can be almost self sustaining. Fresh manures are richer but unless you put them in the garden in the fall and let them cook over the winter, they are not that safe pathogen wise. They are better hot composted first. There are some commercial composters or you can make a compost bin with recycled pallettes. Most people have more yard than I do. My main issues besides the space that the compost pile takes up is the vermin it attracts mainly centipedes, roaches and mice. The other issue is that many of the weeds I have cannot be composted because nut sedge can survive composting and many of my weeds only need a node to grow and I have more greens (in weeds) than browns so my pile does not heat up nicely. I have bag composted. The vermin problem persisted with ants instead, but it did keep the weeds from growing in the pile. Just stinky and slimy since it is anaerobic.
I don't have room for a regular compost pile and I don't have enough browns unless I use mostly newspaper and cardboard. I do worm composting instead. It is easier, does not require turning but there is not a lot of compost made in a small container. I can recycle my kitchen scraps and some weeds in the compost bin. Unfortunately, like the big pile, it still attracts vermin. I make compost tea with the vermicast because it goes a lot farther.

jul1799
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thank you. I am located near Toronto, Canada (will update profile shortly). A lot of garden centers have been closed recently and I had hard time even to order soil by track. I will check garden center as soon as I can closest is bit a drive for now.

My backyard is also small and had bunch of black currents and 3 raised beds. The only place I can do compost is in front of my door. However last year we did placed clippings in the recycling bin and I had compost by end of summer with worms and stuff. However It happen by itself and I am not sure I can repeat it again.
thanks for suggestions.

thanks again,

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rainbowgardener
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Even if you can't carve out a 2 ft square for a compost bin, you could definitely do worm composting. Here's a couple threads about it:

https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/vi ... hp?t=18171
https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/vi ... hp?t=35062

And the worm castings are a really good ingrediant for compost tea! :)

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Actually a minimum compost pile would be 3x3x3, but you would also need a place to turn it so another 3x3x3. One pile at a time is slow and not much compost 3 piles are better but you would need a 3.5x 10.5 space to do it. One pile for building, next pile cooking, third pile finishing. My yard is 15-30 ft deep from the house to the perimeter. Too close to keep vermin outside.

The differences in compost tea. Aerated compost tea is faster than non-aerated tea. If you let the water stand 4 days before you make the tea, most of the chlorine will volatize off. If you aerate it, it can be ready in as little as 72 hours. Non aerated teas take 4-5 days. But it is better if it is stirred every day.

There is conflicting information on non aerated tea, some articles say that it contains anaerobic pathogens and can be harmfull, however there are not many scientific studies to come to any conclusion. It is generally accepted that AACT is the preferred method.
There are a few things you have to know in making compost tea
1. The source of the compost matters. You want a hot composted compost that gets to at least 131 degrees to kill off the worst of the disease causing pathogens. If your compost isn't good and contains mostly good organisms it doesn't matter if the tea is aerated or non aerated, disease causing pathogens may be different but can live in either aerobic or anaerobic conditions.
2 . The purpose of growing the tea is not to make 'fertilizer' but to grow the organisms to feed the soil and they will in turn make more of the available nutrients available to the plants. Note: for the organisms to survive and thrive in the soil, the soil must contain enough organic matter (carbon) and nitrogen (usually from fertilizers, manure, animal and plant by products) to sustain their population and still have enough left over to sustain the plants. This is one reason why I do not plant directly in compost alone, it does not contain enough nutrients for both the organisms and the plant by itself. Unfinished compost will compete with the plants for nutrition and if it is not hot composted, may still contain pathogens.
3. If you make aerated compost tea, there is a clock on it. You have to prep it and if you go more than 3 days, you have to add more blackstrap molasses or the organisms will starve from lack of a food source and start to die.
4. Aeration selects for anaerobic bacteria, but there are aerobic pathogens like xanthomonas that would love those conditions.
Once aeration stops, you need to strain and distribute the compost tea within 4 hours. Since you have selected for aerobic bacteria, they don't live very long in an anaerobic environment
5. The advantage of non-aerated tea over aerated tea. In the garden there is no active aeration, organisms grown in non aerated tea live longer. Although there have not been many studies. I hypothesize that the organisms are more like the brine shrimp I used to grow for my aquarium. They are being cultivated to feed the soil organisms already in residence and not to augment their numbers. If you ever did a lab experiment and cultured soil, you would find many different colonies of bacteria on a plate depending on the media, but the colonies of different species compete with and eat each other and some of them actually create lethal zones around them to keep other bacteria and fungi away. It is how antibiotics like streptoymycin was discovered. Pennicilin was discovered in bread mold. Bacteria usually eat yeasts, when bacteria are killed the yeasts population soars and causes problems. Billions of organisms live in and on the human body. The host (us) normally are not bothered by them unless our immune system fails or we get sick.
6. Your making compost tea in a water environment so you would be selecting for bacteria and fungi that survive in that kind of environment. Then you are going to put them on a plant in the air and on the soil, which are again different environments, not all of the microbes will be adaptable.
The University https://www.uvm.edu/vtvegandberry/facts ... sttea.html
https://www.finegardening.com/brewing-compost-tea

We actually did an experiment for the master gardener class on aerated vs non aerated tea. Lettuce seedlings were grown in pots all using the same media. Peat/lite with osmocote slow release fertilizer. On one group AACT was used on the second group non aerated tea was used. Unfortunately since this was a class experiment not a scientific one, there was not a control goup (so the study design was a bit flawed). A few of the lettuce plants died from unkown causes but of the ones that survived, the ones grown with non-aerated tea were larger. (Again not scientific, it was based on observation not actual weights).

It would be a good experiment to try to do a better study. Have a control group. This study was done in pots using basically a sterile potting mix and fertilizer. Not many organisms to start with in a pot, Just what it gained from the air, and water. The pots were on a bench so no contact with the ground, but at least the mix was made at the same time so the media was the same for all the plants. Since osmocote was used, for fertilizer, most of the growth of the lettuce could have been the result of the fertilizer and not of the compost tea.

It would be good to try the experiment on a larger scale in a homogenous field. Using the same crop and variety. Intial soil test for NPK and soil microbes
Have three groups n=30 in each group. One group would be the control, the second would be aerated tea (dosage and intervals would need to be determined) and the third would be non aerated tea.
Tissue and soil analysis should follow for weight, test plants for pathogens (safe to eat), soil microbes, NPK (looking for changes in the soil. Some of the changes will be inevitable since the crop will use up some of the nutrients and it will be different for different crops and under different environmental conditions.

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rainbowgardener
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It's why it is really hard to do good science about this kind of stuff - the variables are endless. I planted the same flowers in the same soil in two different flower beds maybe 30' apart. One of them was close to (and partly shaded by) the big old lilac tree and one was not. The flowers in more sun were half again as big and floriferous.

jul1799
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imafan26:

I completely agree with your post, while some of suggestions are fat from being realistic for me.
While I'd love to use them, I have to get real.
If my cucumbers and pepper would not die and actually produce something decent, I would be already happy. If I get everything else perform better then usual - I would be double happy:) Everything else should wait for if/when I retire.
It took me 3 days to read your post to the end... I can not even think about "better results". Aerated tea still sounds miracle to me. I have to hold of my excitement though, since local Walmart did not have items in stock, and, once ordered it takes them a week to deliver.

Saying that.... Last year we had one of the blue bins where I just dumped tomato leafs I cut from plants (not sure it is a great technique, but it is not a point) and some grass. I was surprised to see some compost by end of summer and we "planted" along with rest of frozen tomato plants into the raised bed.
I might be wrong, but it looks like this year plants are quite happier then ones from last year.

I'll try to do experiment again (there is no way I can have any decent compost file as my backyard is small and I have tons of plants and shrubs)m but unfortunately I have no idea why it worked last year. I did not add soil or anything special

tanks for advises I do appreciate them greatly..

From my back home videos , I can see that people widely use non-aerated compost tea. I would not know name, since it is not in English, but as far as I understand idea that what they use: grass /nettle/dandelions/ are submerged in water for some period of time and is it stirred from time to time. Some refer for as long as a month.

People usually have bigger place to do so.

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In the north, one way to compost if you don't have the room is to do it off-season IN THE GARDEN BEDS.

I've been playing with this idea and found that even if I build a pile at one end of the bed after clearing it for the fall, and migrate the pile across the bed when I do a full turn, it really helps to enrich the soil in the bed (remove and pile everything next to where the original pile was located -- I'm doing this with wire rabbit fence circle, so pile top 1/3 on the ground, then pull up the fence and put around/over the new pile and secure, then break down the rest of the pile and put inside the wire containment). Of course there is a period of time when everything is frozen and you won't be able to move it, but you can resume as soon as things start to thaw and you can get the wire fence off the ground. It will be a while until the ground dries and you can plant anyway.

You could also simply make the compost pile in the center of the bed. If I'm leaving it for the duration, I like to make the pile where I will be planting heavy feeders for next summer.

Depending on when you start up again in spring, the compost may or may not be finished, but the bed will be mostly weed free and crumbly. The unfinished compost ingredients could be moved to another bed or trench composted in the pathway.

I like to start off the spring planting with plenty of peas and fava beans to help build up the soil fertility even more. You need to be creative with the planting design and spacing to allow planting the warm weather/summer crops in between since there is an overlap when peas/favas are not quite finished producing, but you will need to plant.

jul1799
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your idea is great if you have some kind of fence around your beds. We do not have space for any fences. Last year we had groundhog destroying everything. He ate even horseradish:) We have placed some chicken wire temporary around beds. it caused inconveniences for both of us (me and groundhog), but he did not stop coming. We also had mice ,squirrels and birds. They all quite vicious for cultured food.my black current is eaten quite fast if I am not careful, while wild in the park waits another 2-3 weeks to be eaten
Placing compost pile in the middle might attract even more critters then we currently have .

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Pests and bird/animals marauders are a whole different topic. But I generally don't find them to be much of an issue in my compost piles. Sometimes small animals and birds help control insects pests in the compost pile so I don't always restrict access. From other members postings, I gather raccoon raiding parties can be a major headache, however.

As for competing with them for harvest -- Certain birds will very quickly find your berry bushes and small fruit (cherry) trees. Grapes, too if I had them. Here, we have catbirds and robins as the main raiders, with cardinals, mockingbirds, bluejays and Orioles staying a little less voracious and flighty. Catbirds will start visiting a week to a few days before the berries will be full ripe. They and robins will start sampling blushed berries. Chipmunks will also go after berries.

I use homemade birdscares and netting, and even tulle party favor bags on individual and trusses of berries when only limited harvest is forthcoming and I can't spare any to the birds. Unprotected, the birds will strip the bushes bare.

Squirrels and chipmunks and groundHOGS will go after bigger fruits like plums and apples, peaches and pears.

Mice -- I'd rather they stayed outside than come inside the house. I don't see them out there that much, but they do manage to find their way into the garage after it gets cold. I discovered we have a pretty big garter snake in our garden patrolling around. Hopefully there will be less mice. My neighbor feeds homeless cats -- they are not welcome in my garden, but Maybe they do control some of the mice. They have been known to destroy bunny nests.

We have had an on-going battle with groundHOGs. Without a secure fencing, which is difficult because they dig AND climb -- believe me I've tried all different kinds -- trapping them has been the only sure solution.

jul1799
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We have netting and tried to make some devices to scare birds. Black current is ok but some other berries would be eaten through netetWe Had rides for carrots and tomatoes. One year was especially bad and we had to throw all tomatoes...
Will see what happend this year. Critters control would my next research.



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