2012-2013 Winter indoor tomatoes

[applestar]

So, much to my chagrin the variety I've been calling "Black Krim" throughout this thread has turned out to be NOT Black Krim.

I had the first inclination a while back when I noticed that the fruits didn't look like the other varieties.... This one realy looked like they have CLEAR skin:




...then I FINALLY noticed that these plants seem to have POTATO LEAF foliage:




BLACK KRIM is REGULAR leaf and has RED fruits (with green shoulders) -- in other words, YELLOW skin.

If you go back and look at the various photos I posted, you'll see distinct differences in the way the fruits have looked, green unripe to blushing, compared to Sophie's Choice, Zarnitsa, and Donomter F2 fruits, all of which have RED/yellow skin fruits.

So, what variety is this? I believe it's SPUDAKEE -- POTATO LEAF strain of Cherokee Purple (hence "spud" in it's name, though it's also because this strain was developed by "Spudleaf" Willie). PURPLE and PINK fruited tomatoes have CLEAR skin.

This made for an useful review in learning to recognize tomato leaf shapes and fruit colors.

...but now I'll have to go back and edit every single post (and this Post has landed on the 8th page of the thread.... )

[gixxerific]

Good luck Apple either way you come out a winner though.

[gixxerific]

Alright Gardenfreak fresh tomatoes in Jan you have to be doing something right.

[PunkRotten]

I have a plant outdoors in the ground and it grew pretty good but seems to be dormant now. Has several full size tomatoes, smaller ones, and flowers. Today I noticed one of the bigger side branches cracked. I removed it and planted it into the ground. Do you think it has a chance to be a new plant?

[applestar]

Tomatoes are very easy to propagate from branches. Just keep it watered. Tomato gardeners call that "cloning".

It's great to see other members growing their winter tomatoes. I'd hoped to see more folks jump in.

Here is the first ripe Zarnitsa fruit with the next in line coming along nicely:

The 2" saladette size red one should really have been picked yesterday but hopefully, it's stil good today.

Here is the fused bloom SPUDAKEE and a single bloom sib:
(...BTW I have been told that these plants' Spudakee-ness is still in question and I should wait until I do a "scrape test" on the epidermis, which I gather is scraping the flesh off the skin and holding it up to the light)

Scale is deceptive without a reference object -- the "bigger" fruit is actually rather small ... only bout 3" across the long way and dreaming about how big it COULD have grown if it was during the main growing season OR if it had been given a much bigger container to grow in ...ALMOST ready to pick.

P.S. during the summer months, I would have put this plant in at least a 10 gallon, but more likely a 15 gallon size container instead of the 1.75-2 gal container it's in. For winter growing, I'm determined find varieties that will perform adequately to satisfactorily in 2 to maybe 3 gal at the most containers. So this has been a good experiment. I WILL save the seeds though, like I do with all my fused bloom fruits.

P.P.S. the little red checkmark on Zarnitsa's label indicates that I added a fat earthworm from the vermicomposter in this pot.

[applestar]

Daughter picked and ate Zarnitsa fruit when I wasn't looking.

...I'll have to wait for the next one to taste.

[DoubleDogFarm]

Not that I would do this experiment, but I'm thinking this post should be a sticky.

Eric

[gixxerific]

Not that I would do this experiment, but I'm thinking this post should be a sticky.

Eric

Good idea though this will happen again next winter. So there will be new adventures in a new thread. Hopefully we can get more people to join in.

[gixxerific]

yes Apple the "scrape test" is as you said. You should be able to tell if it is clear or yellow. Which as we know makes the difference betwen pink and red or between purple and black.

[applestar]

Thanks Gixx.
We ate the mystery tomato yesterday. And let me tell you these fruits were incredibly yummy. I was concerned that in low temp and less light, flavor would be lackluster, but not with this variety (whatever it is ).

Tomato-loving daughter ate most of them, but I snagged two small pieces and she shared one piece with DH. She normally salts all her tomatoes, but I gave these to her unsalted and she ate -- more like gobbled -- them up without a comment, which sort of suggests Black Krim with it's reputation for "salty/no salt needed" flavor.

The fruits were small as you can see, but if I could have a productive version of this -- well three at once with 4th to follow today or tomorrow isn't bad at all for THIS harvest, but the rest of the fruits on this plant are 3-4 wks away I think -- that would be ideal. I've decided to put "productive" "loaded with fruits" "good cropper" etc. descriptors higher on my winter indoor variety criteria.



-- one reason we had to eat them yesterday was that the fruits split after I watered the plant as you can see. Now I'm wondering if this might be Cherokee Purple.

I tried the skin scrape test but may have not done it correctly. Here are a couple of photos. What do you think? Yellow or clear?

...I had trouble with the scraped skin rolling up, so I tried sticking them to the window


We will probably have the 4th mystery tomato (yes I'm counting the twin fruit pictured above as two fruits -- and there was a 4th fruit behind the cluster that you couldn't see in the picture) and a Zarnitsa (2nd fruit pictured above) today. So I can do another skin scrape test using a refinement to the technique I learned, and can also make a comparison. Then there is a fruit that is on a plant marked Zarnitsa but is looking more like Sophie's Choice which should be ready to eat in the next couple of days.



ETA -- just now realized that even though I was pushing aside foliage to take the above picture, I was so intent I completely missed yet another Zarnitsa that looks almost ripe -- maybe two more days. These Zarnitsa fruits are globe shaped, evenly colored, and about 1.75" diam. The above flattened fruit is probably about 2.5" in diam. -- it *could* be a fused bloom fruit though....

[gixxerific]

Hard to tell from the pics but I'm leaning towards clear skin. What do you think?

Window, Nice!

Maybe if you can find one of those examination lights for X-ray's that would be the ticket.

[applestar]

I'm still not sure....

...I think it's time to take another look at entire plants

Winter Wonderland -- all tomato plants except Sophie's Choice are approx. 26" tall and I'm topping them now. SC is about 22".




3 of the Spudakee/Black Krim plants:
(1) Topped at 4' high:

(2) and (3) Two plants on either ends of the bench -- upper branches trained on strings strung across . There is a Sophie's Choice in the middle.

...oops cut off the developing fruits at the top -- here's another view:

[rainbowgardener]

Wonderful, applestar! Just out of curiosity, what room in your house is all this stuff in? I just keep thinking, if I were going to try this for this coming winter, where would I put it all?

[applestar]

Currently ripening fruits




Very but I'm positive we can do better! In a way, I can't wait for next winter!

[rainbowgardener]

We posted at the exact same minute See my post above your latest (gorgeous) pictures.

[applestar]

Gotcha!

Wonderful, applestar! Just out of curiosity, what room in your house is all this stuff in? I just keep thinking, if I were going to try this for this coming winter, where would I put it all?

What room? What room DOESN'T have "all this stuff"
...majority are in the Family room -- I tell myself that they clean the air and provide oxygen. With all the lights, no one bothers to turn on the normal incandescent lighting for the room anymore. Kitchen window is always dedicated to edible plants in the winter. I also have them occupying the best SE facing windows in the upstairs bedrooms.

...well, yeah...

[gixxerific]

LOVE IT!! Your killing me here though. I am about down to just a few plants. After the disease things went south fast. About time to get starters going too so I want to clean the area up first, I can't have a disease follow me outside.

I see you are using a window as well. I notice that helps a lot even in my case. When I am home and bring them up to the good south windows they perk up and take off a bit. If I could turn my house 180 degrees I would be set. Even a greehouse would be put up.

But as they say "Loaction, Location, Location". I am struggleing with mine, for winter at least. I have some ideas, there is always next years "Winter Dwarf Thread" right?

Oh yeah you got something coming to your mail box, leaving today.

[applestar]

{Thank you, Gixx! }

Sorry this is going to take up a lot of space, but I wanted to review the matter in question, so I'm quoting a couple of my own posts:

So, much to my chagrin the variety I've been calling "Black Krim" throughout this thread has turned out to be NOT Black Krim.

I had the first inclination a while back when I noticed that the fruits didn't look like the other varieties.... This one realy looked like they have CLEAR skin:




...then I FINALLY noticed that these plants seem to have POTATO LEAF foliage:




BLACK KRIM is REGULAR leaf and has RED fruits (with green shoulders) -- in other words, YELLOW skin.

If you go back and look at the various photos I posted, you'll see distinct differences in the way the fruits have looked, green unripe to blushing, compared to Sophie's Choice, Zarnitsa, and Donomter F2 fruits, all of which have RED/yellow skin fruits.

So, what variety is this? I believe it's SPUDAKEE -- POTATO LEAF strain of Cherokee Purple (hence "spud" in it's name, though it's also because this strain was developed by "Spudleaf" Willie). PURPLE and PINK fruited tomatoes have CLEAR skin.

This made for an useful review in learning to recognize tomato leaf shapes and fruit colors.

...but now I'll have to go back and edit every single post (and this Post has landed on the 8th page of the thread.... )

(...BTW I have been told that these plants' Spudakee-ness is still in question and I should wait until I do a "scrape test" on the epidermis, which I gather is scraping the flesh off the skin and holding it up to the light)

I tried the skin scrape test but may have not done it correctly. Here are a couple of photos. What do you think? Yellow or clear?

...I had trouble with the scraped skin rolling up, so I tried sticking them to the window

Yesterday, I took my mom to Whole Foods where they had Kumato tomatoes from Mexico in 1 lb packages for $3.99. Even though I'm not given to buying tomatoes or conventionally grown produce from south of the border, recently having been reminded of Kumato as a tasty hybrid tomato and being so easily influenced, I bought them. Mine had 5 and mom's had 6 fruits in the package.

So, with a known BLACK/yellow epi tomato at hand, I did a comparison.... (drum roll please....)
.
.
.
TAH DAH!


Not sure if it's showing up as distinctly as to the naked eye, but the skins in the center have distinct pink color to them. You can sort of see it better with the sun shining through in this picture:


...AAAAND I am growing SPUDAKEE!

[rainbowgardener]

applestar/gixx ... Either of you want to weigh in on this thread:

https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/v ... ht=#286078

Your experiences would be directly relevant to OPs question about indoor tomatoes.

[applestar]

I'm waiting for the OP to read this thread and comment,

[applestar]

I wanted to quickly mention this -- then I'm going to go have lunch.

I said back on the first page of this thread (I think):

Not so much "indoor" tomato but container size is also a directly affecting factor. When we're starting them in spring, we can keep them in small containers because we know we're going to plant them out in the ground later and then they'll jump exponentially in size and vigor. It's easy to think you can keep them in smaller containers in the same way as long as they are not really pot bound (and we're familiar with how big the plant would be to get to that state) but if you uppot ahead of the roots reaching the sides of the container into much bigger containers, they respond by growing much stronger.

I've been assured by an experienced tomato grower that typically, cherry and saladette size varieties will produce intended size fruits even in restricted containers, but larger fruits varieties will immediately demonstrate their displeasure by shrinking their fruit size.

This summer, I'm going to try growing a number of dwarf varieties that have been bred to grow small plant height but produce larger fruits same as their genetic parents in containers, though I think the breeders were aiming for 5 gal minimum container size. I'm also going to try growing extra early to early maturing, PRODUCTIVE varieties of all fruit sizes (and colors )

I've decided to plant them in a shadier bed that I was puzzling over what to plant in -- which normally wouldn't be considered for tomatoes -- to see if they will fruit. And I'll start the better producers out of the bunch in late summer for next winter's indoor garden.

[applestar]

Lighting does make a big difference.
This is what the Winter Wonderland looks like with sun pouring in from the window when the light is not on:


During the winter, the sun rises a little south of true East directly into this ESE window and, because the sun's arc remains low in the sky, shoots slanting sunbeams, past the bare branches of trees beyond our property, across the full length/width of the plant table made of IKEA desk/table top supported by an organizer unit on one end and a sturdy quilt rack on the other end.

During the summer, the sun is too high by the time it crosses this window and the sunlight doesn't reach much past the windowsill and what might have are blocked by the tree leaves -- most of the table remain in the shadows and it is used for other purposes.

My kitchen window is oriented in the same direction.

[applestar]

Wow this thread was almost halfway down the page! I guess I haven't updated in a while.

Here is first DonomaterF2 to start blushing (I noticed it yesterday)

(yeah this one is in my daughter's room and when it strted leaning, I grabbed one of her old belts to strap it to the Mango tree so it doesn't fall over into the supplemental light. )

[sepeters]

Wow! That's amazing! Everyone will be buried in snow and you'll be enjoying fresh, homegrown tomatoes! How awesome do you feel right now?

[applestar]

Here are today's update photos of some of the downstairs tomato trusses
Spudakee

(yeah this one's stem fell over and kinked fom the weight -- I provided support with a spiral slit drinking straw, ...so of course it bent where it wasn't supported )
Zarnitsa

DonomaterF2

Another Spudakee (this one's next )

Another Zarnitsa (and this one)

Sophie's Choice


Upstairs, besides the blushing DonomaterF2 pictured in the previous post, another productive DonomaterF2 in a 2-1/2 gal container has 10 green fruits and another handful of blossoms that have set fruit.

-- So how am I feeling? Well, "awesome" isn't exactly -- but I'm definitely enjoying this.

This morning, I had a tuna salad made with alfalfa sprouts I grew in a jar and dried oregano from last summer's harvest, and added diced red ripe Sophie's Choice tomato (that flattened tomato above was definitely not Zarnitsa but Sophie's Choice -- I must have mislabeled it). It was a 2" Saladette size and grew in a 1Lb cardboard oatmeal box (the kind Quaker Oats comes in, though mine was Country Choice organic multi grain and 1Lb2oz). Sophie's Choice has full bodied tomato flavor but is tangy and tasted great this way: I didn't have to add lemon juice.

[applestar]

UPSTAIRS -- typically borderline 68-71°F by day, 65-68°F at night.

First DonomaterF2 is almost ready. It's just shy of 2" diameter (1-7/8"). Tomorrow or day after, so basically about a week from first blush to dead ripe.


The other DonomaterF2 upstairs is starting to blush a first fruit. This one is about 1-1/2".

More clusters further up:


KITCHEN window bench -- 65-68°F daytime, 61-64°F night.

Almost ripe double sized (2-1/2") Spudakee and another average sized fruit (1-3/4") for this plant. Small for main season Spudakees but if they taste anything like the fruits from the other sibling plant, they are going to be scrumptious. This out of control plant is still in a 7" nursery pot. I missed the chance to Uppot and decided to let it go and see what it would do....

More clusters here and it has other flower trusses setting fruit:

I'm going to save seeds from this plant separately in case this ability to grow so huge and fruit is a special trait.

Hot Lemon peppers, too


Downstairs' 36" high counter table dubbed "THE WINTER WONDERLAND" -- typical temp here is upper 60's during the day and drops to low 60's during the night.

This is the Zarnitsa that was crushed by the falling light fixture. Still bandaged up, but going strong:


This is one of the two DonomaterF2's:

2nd one is a wispy leaved runt and is just setting fruits now so no pics.

Sophie's Choice. Aside from the double/fused Spudakee, Sophie's Choice is growing the biggest fruits at 2-1/2 to 3".

This one is in a 2 gal bucket and is on a 4" riser to stay closer to the light fixture (approx 3" below the tubes) while DonomaterF2's and Zarnitsa are pushing up against the protective wire grid 1" below the tubes.

COOL GANG grouping on the floor where overnight temp drops down as low a mid-50's, daytime high about 65°F

Zarnitsa and Sophie's Choice here were just harvested -- very few fruits on these plants. They will each produce maybe 3 more.

Another Spudakee (Edit: daughter ate it on a French bread pizza today -- Thurs -- 1.55 oz, 1-7/8" diam)

It is completely out of control and has passed the 5' height. It's been blooming and setting fruits madly since it passed the 4ft height -- fine and dandy but too tall and too late. The flavor is incredibly exceptional and I'm enjoying them, but I wouldn't consider it for future indoor growing.

I found alternate dark fruited variety candidates for next year though
Current top 3 candidates are -- Tasmanian Chocolate, Rosella Purple, and Sinister MinisterF4. All three are reputed to have fantastic flavor that rival Spudakee/Cherokee Purple. First two are supposed to only grow to 4 ft. Sinister MinisterF4 is not a short variety but is supposed to be productive and is a plum, so I'm going to try topping it early and see how it takes to being kept pruned down.

I'm still working on other fruit color candidates. Inevitably a lot of red cherries and saladettes in the list, but I also want some other colors, shapes, and hopefully sizes, too.

[applestar]

Apparently, the determinate DonomaterF2's all decided it was time to ripen
#1
#3

Yesterday, we harvested one DonomaterF2 and two Spudakee. Spudakee were dead ripe so we ate them


Today, harvested two more DonomaterF2 and weighed them:

(These fruits don't have the yellow shoulders that Gixx noted in the F1's)

[applestar]

...and today:

#3





According to my daughter, even though #4 is skimpy with fruit and only has ripened this single larger fruit as compared to the more prolific if smaller fruited #1 and #3, #4's fruit is sweet and tasty while #1 and #3 fruits were not up to her standard and she only would taste one more piece before declaring them unworthy. She is eat the rest of #4 fruit.

-- and don't worry, Gixx, I saved seeds from all three.

[applestar]

Today, I made an executive decision and "fired" a non-productive Spudakee plant.
...in fact, it was even more medieval than that since it was summarily executed and then drawn and quartered and stuffed into the worm pit (composter).

You see, I took a cutting from a Spudakee last month because the upper sucker had grown so big before I realized it. The clone rooted in no time at all and even though I only planted it in a small 2x2x2.5" pot, proceeded to grow a nice floral truss and even started pushing up against the lights to the point that I HAD to Uppot it today.

The usurper is now happily ensconced in this window-side tub (I mentioned it once before. I think I calculated it to be approx 3.5 or 4 gal?)

(You see where the stem is bent under the floral truss? That's how much it was pushing up and bent over )


I have two more cuttings of Spudakee rooting as well as two of DonomaterF2#4. I have a beginning of an idea that this might be a way to get a jump on very late maturing indeterminate varieties -- similar to overwintering hot peppers.

[applestar]

We had a tomato tasting. 5 judges tasted in following order --

1) very ripe Zarnitsa (Winter Wonderland)
2) ripe DonomaterF2#1 (Winter Wonderland)
3) ripe DonomaterF2#3 (upstairs -- warmer, less light, beset with Spidermites)
4) 2 fruits under ripe Spudakee (Cool Gang)
5) very ripe Kumato (store bought grown in Mexico)

Tasting was casual and judges were asked to simply comment with their impressions, though not everyone did.

1) Zarnitsa had a OK tomato flavor but ended with an acid bite.
-- "It's OK but I don't love it. It might be good in a salad"
-- "It's sour"
-- "It doesn't have a long flavor"

2) DonomaterF2#1 was somewhat better with no acid bite
-- "Its sweeter than the first one, but doesn't have as much flavor"
-- "Donomater, meh" (guess who? )
-- "Flavor is short and the texture is almost mealy"
-- "Oh, this one isn't the same as the last one?"

3) DonomaterF2#3 started out tasting good, but then there was a dissatisfied expectation. I almost wished it had an acid after bite.
-- "This one is juicier, but something is missing."
-- "Do I have to eat this one?"
-- "This one has even shorter flavor, but I like it better than the last one)
..... Two extra pieces were left uneaten. But judges1 and 2 asked if these Donomaters might taste better grown in the summer. And they said they might eat the remaining uncut #1 and #3 another day.

4) Spudakee had a much fuller flavor and despite underripe state, overshadowed the first three with mouth watering flavor
-- "This one tastes the best! Juicy! Delicious!"
-- "Spudakee! Yay! Can I have more?"
-- "Very long in flavor. This is nice."
-- "Oh! This one is very good. Can I have another one?"
-- "Very, very tasty"
..... After the plate made the round, judge3 took back the plate and ate the last remaining two pieces as well as shoveled the seeds and gel that fell out on the plate into his mouth. Good thing I didn't need to save those seeds....

5) Kumato was a very interesting way to end the tasting. Especially after the Spudakee with plentiful green gel that wouldn't stay on the somewhat cavernous cut pieces and had fallen all over the plate, which made for a rather messy and unattractive presentation. Kumato was the largest fruit, and the comparatively large, dense cut pieces held onto the minimum gel seeds, with a gorgeous color mixture of mahogany and garnet in the flesh. Hands down, Kumato was the best looking tomato and generated an almost palpable flurry of anticipation. But I'll withhold my tasting comment and let the others say it....
-- (making a face) "Bleah. This doen't have any flavor."
-- "...."
-- "OMG"
-- "...and it looks so beautiful..."

[gixxerific]

Aweome Apple.

So Donomater did'nt hit the charts eh? Oh well the joitnless pedicle is worth the admission. The F3 can still throw many new possibilites.

[applestar]

You're right about that. I'm counting on other Donomater growers who have the large gardens to grow many more Donomater plants to discover the best line. My itty bitty sample doesn't reveal or mean a whole lot, but it IS interesting to pay close attention and make note of the differences.

I'm going to actually look at the pedicels from now on. I think Belstar is the only other variety I've ever grown to have that particular characteristic that is sought after by commercial and market growers for fruits that wont poke at each ther.

[gixxerific]

Yes that is a highly sought after trait. Jointless that is.

There is even a big time breeder looking to use this. Can you say stripes?

[applestar]

Yesterday's lunch:
Fresh DonomaterF2#3 and lettuce from under the lights on hamburger

[rainbowgardener]

Now you are just bragging, applestar! Beautiful!!!

You know, I've been a vegetarian so long, I honestly didn't recognize the brown thing next to them. I was thinking some kind of pita bread.

[applestar]

I wrote a long reply the other day then hit preview for one last check and my browser crashed. Too discouraged to write it again then.

To summarize, I wanted to say that I really would love to see more people trying this. If you can grow houseplants in winter, so can you grow tomatoes with a little bit of extra light.

I'm estimating
* one clamp on utility light with 6500K cfl bulb to supplement a sunny southeast, south, or southwest window for one or two plants. Two lights -- one on either side for four plants.
* two tube fluorescent fixture with 6500K bulbs -- overhead 24" fixture for two plants, 48" for four plants. Four tube fixture would double the capacity.
* two tube fluorescent fixture set vertically can support two plants. I'm envisioning hanging them on a wall corner or utility shelf unit or inside walls of a narrow bookcase or wardrobe like from IKEA for more decorative living area appearance.
.

[applestar]

...or you can go crazy like me

Photos taken yesterday --

Kitchen Window Bench:




Winter Wonderland in the Family Room:

[gixxerific]

Well you know I'll will be there with you next year.

I would be rolling in tomatoes right now if it wasn't for the disease that took most everything out. But try and try again right. I can kill a plant with the best of them, but I keep marching on.

Now to find that big pry bar I have, it's here somewhere. I need to rotate my house 180 degrees. I have ton's of great windows on my North facing side but none on the South facing, unless it is a kids bedroom. And with my kids the plants would be in shreds within day's.

[applestar]

I know -- I'm really sad that your tomatoes didn't make it this year, but it was an unusual infection, and hopefully not to be repeated especially since you,ll be on your guard.

I was thinking about growing indoor winter tomatoes more "decoratively" --

-- just from remembering duh_vinci's photos, one way is to use matching containers. Somehow, a "collection" of matching containers creates a sense of neatness. Using matching decorative plant/tomato supports like painted cages and spirals would help.
-- lighting could be concealed inside more decorative shelving units. I was thinking about how older deep entertainment units that are no longer useful due to flat screen TV's could be repurposed. On the inexpensive, there's always IKEA. But they'll need to be waterproofed. My IKEA table top being used for the Winter Wonderland is starting to show signs of wear: Spilled/dripping water seems to have gotten into the pressed wood core due to thin paint or lamination getting scratched off.
-- when I lived in an apartment long ago, I created a plant corner with mirror tiles and lighting.

[gixxerific]

Simply amazing Apple I don't know how you do it. I am impressed.