I took parts of one of my plants to a botanist friend to let her try to figure out what I had purchased. Perhaps you might want to take some of your millefolium in to someone who might be in a position to help you positively identity which one you have. I frequently see photos online that are most certainly mislabeled and herbarium specimens have been known to be mislabeled. That's why one will frequently find lots of handwritten notes added to herbarium specimens by others. Regarding native plant nurseries, purchased 25 Morus rubra last year that turned out to be M. alba. That certainly wasn't the first honest mistake on behalf of a native plant nursery and most certainly won't be the last. He's human and contacted all who purchased them so we could remove them.
Incidentally; millefoliums are well documented as hybridizing freely which may complicate an identification and A. millefolium var. millefolium looks to be naturalized throughout the entire state of Washington. It is entirely possible a salvage agency could have gotten their hands on non-native material. Accidents happen.
I have since removed my original three millefolium plants and all of the offspring.
Any plant that is impossible to erradicate once it is in the ground I dislike. Vinca can be controlled if cut off from the rest of the garden but once in it it spreads and chokes anything else in that area. You cannot kill it by drying it out as it will grow in nigh on desert conditions. It roots wherever it touches so has no limit to its spread and greater or less they do the same thing just one is slightly slower than the other.brubel wrote:Jess,
Why don't you like vinca. Does it kill anything? Which one do you mean: there are two types of vinca: vinca and vinca minor.
I asked b/c I just planted vinca minor in an isolated bed. They are the only thing in the bed. I put this in after trying several other plants first.
This may be a love-hate plant: I've seen several recent articles about people loving it. I've also seen several people like you putting it on the hate list. It's in now, so I need to know what to look out for.
brubel
I would not give it space in my garden as I have too many choice plants that would be swamped by it in seconds.....but I have once used Vinca in a garden. A raised hollow ugly wall in shade which needed something to cover it permanently. Any that managed to reach beyond a certain point was chopped off so could not root on the ground below.
Yes Symphoricarpus suckers terribly!Garden Spider wrote:
I'm curious about the Symphoricarpus albus; it's a native plant in my area. Is it invasive in Great Britain, or does it sucker heavily? It's one I've been considering planting.
I do agree aobut the Hyacinthoides non-scripta; I battle those every year. Grrrr.
In this country birds spread it indiscriminately by consuming the berries. We have natural hedgerows of beautiful buckthorn, whitethorn and hawthorn being destroyed by this awful plant. Try to dig out a mature thicket of this stuff and you will never stand straight again. I broke my 'lifetime guarantee' spade on a clump once.
Hyacinthoides non-scripta are just stunning in England right now. Whole woodland floors are carpeted with it and it is breathtaking to see.....but the bulbs are too deep down and multiply too quickly to be grown in your average suburban plot. They are meant for mass planting not a little corner, also, once finished they look like slimy grass. Not attractive.
https://www.arkive.org/species/ARK/plants_and_algae/Hyacinthoides_non-scripta/ARK006887.html?offset=0px
Ajuga I can understand though I do still use it if I want cover in an inhospitable area but why the others Maine?MaineDesigner wrote:I also tend to regard most Monardas, Ajuga, Centauria montana, Tradescantias, Macleaya cordata and some Rubeckias as more trouble than they are worth.
Monarda?! Wonderful bee plant and never a thug here. It spreads but is easy to remove.
Tradescantia, beautiful garden plant and in my experience here, not invasive.
Rudbeckias I never bother with purely because the slugs turn them in to string vests but they are never a problem here.
Macleay cordata is beautiful and such a hard plant to get hold of in UK. It looks wonderful in an herbaceous border and many of the RHS gardens here use it.
Funny how one mans thug is another mans (womans
) choice plant depending on which country you are in.TheLorax wrote:Thanks for my chuckle of the morning. Pretty funny.Vinca can be controlled if cut off from the rest of the garden
I know that sounds a tad ridiculous now I look at it but I was referring to brubels post about having it in an isolated bed. I will reword.....
If you brick Vinca in on all sides and do not let it grow beyond the bricks you can control it.
Hows that?
That's funny too because we still wouldn't be able to grow hardly anything else in that area because vinca is such a resource hog. I take it you've had the displeasure like me of having to control vincas?If you brick Vinca in on all sides and do not let it grow beyond the bricks you can control it.
I'd also add it might be a good idea to follow your advice above but to also seriously consider driving some sort of a barrier into the ground about a foot or so underneath the bricks so their roots don't try to make a run for the great green beyond the bricks by sneaking under. Same principle as all the people trying to grow bamboo who are driving sheet piling down into their ground in attempts to contain it. Sheet piling can contain bamboo... then sometimes it can't.
Point taken. It is a 'resource hog' ( I like that term) and I would not give it light of day either and yes, I have had to get rid of it in a garden. Took me over a year. Even so I would still say ivy is worse and fights back more. I have scraped it off a wall with a hoe and lost knuckles in the process. There is also the dust that seems to build up behind it. Gave me a cough for a week. I am at present trying to get rid of it in a bed in one garden and from under and through a hedge in another.TheLorax wrote:That's funny too because we still wouldn't be able to grow hardly anything else in that area because vinca is such a resource hog. I take it you've had the displeasure like me of having to control vincas?If you brick Vinca in on all sides and do not let it grow beyond the bricks you can control it.
I'd also add it might be a good idea to follow your advice above but to also seriously consider driving some sort of a barrier into the ground about a foot or so underneath the bricks so their roots don't try to make a run for the great green beyond the bricks by sneaking under. Same principle as all the people trying to grow bamboo who are driving sheet piling down into their ground in attempts to contain it. Sheet piling can contain bamboo... then sometimes it can't.
I just thought of two more I hate....brambles and convolvulus, still hate ivy the most.
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Garden Spider
- Cool Member
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:07 pm
- Location: Western Washington
I know what awful effects an invading plant can have on natural ecosystems. I find it interesting that your birds have taken to eating Symphoricarpus berries; here, the birds regard it as a "last resort" food, to be eaten only when everything else is gone. It's one that people who put in songbirds garden generally don't plant, partly because of the suckers, and partly because it has very little value as a food plant for local birds.Jess wrote:Yes Symphoricarpus suckers terribly!Garden Spider wrote:
I'm curious about the Symphoricarpus albus; it's a native plant in my area. Is it invasive in Great Britain, or does it sucker heavily? It's one I've been considering planting.
I do agree aobut the Hyacinthoides non-scripta; I battle those every year. Grrrr.
In this country birds spread it indiscriminately by consuming the berries. We have natural hedgerows of beautiful buckthorn, whitethorn and hawthorn being destroyed by this awful plant. Try to dig out a mature thicket of this stuff and you will never stand straight again. I broke my 'lifetime guarantee' spade on a clump once.
Around here, a big pest is the Butterfly Bush, Buddleia davidii. It's always touted as a great butterfly plant, but the reality is that it may be endangering some species of butterflies in the Pacific Northwest. It's overgrowing native willows in areas, and as a result, some butterfly species whose caterpillars feed exclusively on willows are becoming scarce. I'd love to plant some native willows, but don't think I have the space for them.
It does keep its berries well into winter and that is when the birds go for it especially pheasants. It is one of those plants that just suddenly seemed to be everywhere. It is not particularly showy but it is cheap, being easy to propogate from because of its suckering habit. Now every garden seems to have one, or more! It is turning up more and more in the hedgerows here and as usual little is done about it.
Buddleia davidii is on DEFRAS (Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs) invasive list at last. Took them long enough. It will grow in between paving cracks if given the chance. I do have one.
but I deadhead it religiously so it cannot seed. It is a beautiful white form, not that that makes it any better, I know.
It is hard to believe it can out compete willows. Some of those are complete thugs. Which are your native willows? Which butterflies (caterpillars) use it as a food plant?
Just so you know I spent 3 hours pulling Aegopodium podagraria today. It was introduced as a food plant by the Romans apparently. The ground was just perfect. It rained all day yesterday and the sun came out today so warm and moist. Got a few roots several feet long. Very satisfying.
Buddleia davidii is on DEFRAS (Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs) invasive list at last. Took them long enough. It will grow in between paving cracks if given the chance. I do have one.
but I deadhead it religiously so it cannot seed. It is a beautiful white form, not that that makes it any better, I know. It is hard to believe it can out compete willows. Some of those are complete thugs. Which are your native willows? Which butterflies (caterpillars) use it as a food plant?
Just so you know I spent 3 hours pulling Aegopodium podagraria today. It was introduced as a food plant by the Romans apparently. The ground was just perfect. It rained all day yesterday and the sun came out today so warm and moist. Got a few roots several feet long. Very satisfying.
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Miss Daisy
- Newly Registered
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 12:40 pm
I have a beef with these guys:
Forget me knot... trust me, you do not forget them.
Been yanking them for 5 years now... and again, a few manage to appear now and then.
Johnny Jump-Up... cute little Mickey Mouse Faces
I like them, and choose to let a few at a time live, but that is all.
Lupines... yep...
They look so beautiful when they are fresh and first come up, but when the aphids get them... arrrrggggg. Been yanking many, and yet, loads of them simply appear in a different corner of the garden. I keep hoping the aphids don't discover the new ones... hehehe. I have a love and hate relationship with them.
And stupid stupid me... I sowed some last year as I wanted some red and yellow ones. I only have pink/purple.
Perrywinkle... ARGGGGGGG.....
Still yanking it... it's been five years.
Wild Violas... arggggggg
They weren't mine.. they just kinda appeared... and man, oh man, can they take over. I'm still yanking after 6 years.
Chinese Lanterns...
Holly molly... make sure you keep them in containers. Their runners are incredible.
Again, stupid me, I went and bought seeds last week. It had been 6 years since my invasion. I decided I missed those pretty lanterns... hehehe. For sure, they will go in a pot... and picked before they burst.
Obediance... ARRRRGGGGG
Oh, how they obey you and stand straight and tall... but when you find them the next year 10' further... that's it... YANK!!!!! Still did so this weekend.
Chives... I love them... but...
They are starting to get on my nerves. They're coming a few feet further and further. Gotta keep my eye on them.
Monarda...
Yank!!!
Poppies... the regular ones...
No way... yank.
That's been my experience so far. I do have others that I need to keep an eye on. I don't mind those that grow big around the root ball such as tradescantia, but those I hate are the ones you'll find 10' later the next year.
And the ones I freely let fly everywhere, and they are a favorite...
Black eyed susan
Columbines... I yank those I don't want
OK, that's my beef for tonight. I'm sure I have more, but that's what I can think of for now.
Oh ya, ground cover to close to grass is now totally off my list.
Miss Daisy
Forget me knot... trust me, you do not forget them.
Been yanking them for 5 years now... and again, a few manage to appear now and then.
Johnny Jump-Up... cute little Mickey Mouse Faces
I like them, and choose to let a few at a time live, but that is all.
Lupines... yep...
They look so beautiful when they are fresh and first come up, but when the aphids get them... arrrrggggg. Been yanking many, and yet, loads of them simply appear in a different corner of the garden. I keep hoping the aphids don't discover the new ones... hehehe. I have a love and hate relationship with them.
And stupid stupid me... I sowed some last year as I wanted some red and yellow ones. I only have pink/purple.
Perrywinkle... ARGGGGGGG.....
Still yanking it... it's been five years.
Wild Violas... arggggggg
They weren't mine.. they just kinda appeared... and man, oh man, can they take over. I'm still yanking after 6 years.
Chinese Lanterns...
Holly molly... make sure you keep them in containers. Their runners are incredible.
Again, stupid me, I went and bought seeds last week. It had been 6 years since my invasion. I decided I missed those pretty lanterns... hehehe. For sure, they will go in a pot... and picked before they burst.
Obediance... ARRRRGGGGG
Oh, how they obey you and stand straight and tall... but when you find them the next year 10' further... that's it... YANK!!!!! Still did so this weekend.
Chives... I love them... but...
They are starting to get on my nerves. They're coming a few feet further and further. Gotta keep my eye on them.
Monarda...
Yank!!!
Poppies... the regular ones...
No way... yank.
That's been my experience so far. I do have others that I need to keep an eye on. I don't mind those that grow big around the root ball such as tradescantia, but those I hate are the ones you'll find 10' later the next year.
And the ones I freely let fly everywhere, and they are a favorite...
Black eyed susan
Columbines... I yank those I don't want
OK, that's my beef for tonight. I'm sure I have more, but that's what I can think of for now.
Oh ya, ground cover to close to grass is now totally off my list.
Miss Daisy
My top candidate here is English Ivy -- I've (hopefully) rescued two native trees that were about to be pulled down by it (a dogwood and a black walnut). I may have saved a (non-native) peach tree -- we'll see, as the ivy was growing into the bark. It had also grown into the attic of this old house when we moved in and was just touching the breaker box up there! Now that would have been a disaster in another couple of months (and how does it continue to grow in a dark attic? But it does...) It had also grown through the windows (plus storm windows) and into a bedroom. It doesn't help that I react to the stuff as if it were poison ivy, which just makes the fight all the more bitter!
Second candidate is privet hedge. We're absolutely covered over. I have a problem there as my husband likes it along the fence lines (and it does provide privacy, as if we needed more privacy, remote as we are). But for now I'm living with a lot of privet, though I did cut it out of a yellowbell bush, and its days along the garden fence are numbered.
The wild roses are very aggressive here as well, but I do love 'em. I'm going to have to cut down a big bush that's growing over the top of a side shed on the barn -- it'll pull it down otherwise. But I think I'm going to wait to gather the hips first. There's also a giant one growing in my fig tree that I was hoping I wouldn't have to cut, but it's beating the fig out for sun. It's a shame, as the trunk on that rose is a good two inches thick -- it's been there a while!
And then there's the honeysuckle. I don't think we can ever get the power to the barn turned on, not without rewiring. The honeysucke has about collapsed the existing wiring (which may be two-strand, anyway -- I can't tell because of all the honeysuckle!)
At least I haven't discovered any kudzu. I can't believe the luck there. That was our constant losing battle at our old house.
Second candidate is privet hedge. We're absolutely covered over. I have a problem there as my husband likes it along the fence lines (and it does provide privacy, as if we needed more privacy, remote as we are). But for now I'm living with a lot of privet, though I did cut it out of a yellowbell bush, and its days along the garden fence are numbered.
The wild roses are very aggressive here as well, but I do love 'em. I'm going to have to cut down a big bush that's growing over the top of a side shed on the barn -- it'll pull it down otherwise. But I think I'm going to wait to gather the hips first. There's also a giant one growing in my fig tree that I was hoping I wouldn't have to cut, but it's beating the fig out for sun. It's a shame, as the trunk on that rose is a good two inches thick -- it's been there a while!
And then there's the honeysuckle. I don't think we can ever get the power to the barn turned on, not without rewiring. The honeysucke has about collapsed the existing wiring (which may be two-strand, anyway -- I can't tell because of all the honeysuckle!)
At least I haven't discovered any kudzu. I can't believe the luck there. That was our constant losing battle at our old house.
Egads, you're inundated like I used to be. Keep up the good work eliminating as many of those garbage plants as you can. Maybe take photos of your property every year? You don't think you're making a dent because there's only one you and so many ickies but you really are making progress plant by plant and it becomes increasingly noticeable when comparing photos year to year. Helps me stay motivated when I look at old photos.
My husband had a bizarre attachment to some plants here. Must be a guy or a birder thing. I finally got him to agree to let me take one down that was an embarrassment to me to even be growing here. After I took my chain saw to it while he dramatically pretended to be having a grabber, I converted his beloved beast into a support for a bird bath basin. He liked the basin cradled in the notch that I left because he likes birds. I also bought him a bottle of sunscreen for his bald spot which made my removal of that nasty thing he called shade even more tolerable. He lets me get rid of Japanese Honeysuckle because I plant back more appropriate species for his birds. Multiflora rosa he points out to me to remove. We all hate those attack plants. He doesn't say much about what I remove these days. He's become very supportive as it's sinking in that his precious birds benefit from what I'm removing. He certainly does love his birds.
My husband had a bizarre attachment to some plants here. Must be a guy or a birder thing. I finally got him to agree to let me take one down that was an embarrassment to me to even be growing here. After I took my chain saw to it while he dramatically pretended to be having a grabber, I converted his beloved beast into a support for a bird bath basin. He liked the basin cradled in the notch that I left because he likes birds. I also bought him a bottle of sunscreen for his bald spot which made my removal of that nasty thing he called shade even more tolerable. He lets me get rid of Japanese Honeysuckle because I plant back more appropriate species for his birds. Multiflora rosa he points out to me to remove. We all hate those attack plants. He doesn't say much about what I remove these days. He's become very supportive as it's sinking in that his precious birds benefit from what I'm removing. He certainly does love his birds.
Great tactics TheLorax!TheLorax wrote: My husband had a bizarre attachment to some plants here. Must be a guy or a birder thing. I finally got him to agree to let me take one down that was an embarrassment to me to even be growing here. After I took my chain saw to it while he dramatically pretended to be having a grabber, I converted his beloved beast into a support for a bird bath basin. He liked the basin cradled in the notch that I left because he likes birds. I also bought him a bottle of sunscreen for his bald spot which made my removal of that nasty thing he called shade even more tolerable. He lets me get rid of Japanese Honeysuckle because I plant back more appropriate species for his birds. Multiflora rosa he points out to me to remove. We all hate those attack plants. He doesn't say much about what I remove these days. He's become very supportive as it's sinking in that his precious birds benefit from what I'm removing. He certainly does love his birds.
One day I'll take a photo of my chainsaw masterpiece and post it. The beast tree is really rather attractive now with that water basin nestled in the crook.
My husband hugged that tree at a party in front of family and friends and told everyone that HIS WIFE wanted to kill HIS tree and if I did he'd get a sun burned head while barbecuing from no shade and everyone laughed at my expense. Wasn't until I printed off some information on how weak that type of a tree was because of its rapid rate of growth combined with where it would topple that he decided it could go to tree heaven. He sits inside about 15' away from that tree remote in hand at night watching tv. Here's your sign!
Truth behind the Japanese Honeysuckle is that I asked him to help me hand pull seedlings for a few hours one nice hot day with no breeze. After that, he came to the realization on his own that the planting of more appropriate species would be a lot easier on our backs and better for his birds. He can be reasonable when provided with a subtle incentive. The Rosa multiflora and Berberis thunbergii are no brainers. Too many kids running around here for attack plants.
My husband hugged that tree at a party in front of family and friends and told everyone that HIS WIFE wanted to kill HIS tree and if I did he'd get a sun burned head while barbecuing from no shade and everyone laughed at my expense. Wasn't until I printed off some information on how weak that type of a tree was because of its rapid rate of growth combined with where it would topple that he decided it could go to tree heaven. He sits inside about 15' away from that tree remote in hand at night watching tv. Here's your sign!
Truth behind the Japanese Honeysuckle is that I asked him to help me hand pull seedlings for a few hours one nice hot day with no breeze. After that, he came to the realization on his own that the planting of more appropriate species would be a lot easier on our backs and better for his birds. He can be reasonable when provided with a subtle incentive. The Rosa multiflora and Berberis thunbergii are no brainers. Too many kids running around here for attack plants.
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opabinia51
- Super Green Thumb
- Posts: 4659
- Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 5:58 pm
- Location: Victoria, BC
I dislike all the invasive, spreading weeds (thistles, dandelions, creeping Charlie, pigweed, etc.) when they are in the garden. Out in the wild I wish them all the best.
But to shift the answer to plants that most people love and cultivate that I am not fond of, I will admit that I'm not a big fan of roses. They require such effort, they're difficult to weed because of the thorns, they get scraggly if not pruned all the time, and many of them have flowers that basically rot when they're past their prime and look hideous.
I also can't get on the same page as people who fill garden beds with hostas. I like them just fine in spots of deep shade, a few here and there, but as summer wears on they end up looking scruffy and tired and I can't abide large swathes of them.
But to shift the answer to plants that most people love and cultivate that I am not fond of, I will admit that I'm not a big fan of roses. They require such effort, they're difficult to weed because of the thorns, they get scraggly if not pruned all the time, and many of them have flowers that basically rot when they're past their prime and look hideous.
I also can't get on the same page as people who fill garden beds with hostas. I like them just fine in spots of deep shade, a few here and there, but as summer wears on they end up looking scruffy and tired and I can't abide large swathes of them.
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Garden Spider
- Cool Member
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:07 pm
- Location: Western Washington
We have several native willows: Hooker's Willow (Salix hookeriana) and Scouler's Willow (S. scouleriana) are probably the most common. We also have some shrubby willows S. exigua and S. fluviatilis, and some ground-cover type shrublets, S. arctica, S. nivalis, and S. cascadensis. The Buddleias (I believe) seed more prolifically and grow faster than the willows.Jess wrote:It does keep its berries well into winter and that is when the birds go for it especially pheasants. It is one of those plants that just suddenly seemed to be everywhere. It is not particularly showy but it is cheap, being easy to propogate from because of its suckering habit. Now every garden seems to have one, or more! It is turning up more and more in the hedgerows here and as usual little is done about it.
Buddleia davidii is on DEFRAS (Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs) invasive list at last. Took them long enough. It will grow in between paving cracks if given the chance. I do have one.
It is hard to believe it can out compete willows. Some of those are complete thugs. Which are your native willows? Which butterflies (caterpillars) use it as a food plant?
Just so you know I spent 3 hours pulling Aegopodium podagraria today. It was introduced as a food plant by the Romans apparently. The ground was just perfect. It rained all day yesterday and the sun came out today so warm and moist. Got a few roots several feet long. Very satisfying.
A few of the more common butterflies that use willows are Lorquin's Admiral, Mourning Cloak, and the Western Tiger Swallowtail. I'd love to attract these to my garden.
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NewjerseyTea
- Senior Member
- Posts: 143
- Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:14 am
- Location: Piedmont Area, Northern NJ
NJ Tea,NewjerseyTea wrote:James, most asters are wonderful plants in NJ and many are native. What kind did you purchase?
I don't want to answer for Jess but it might have something to do with the fact Jess is in England I believe.
Thanks for your response! I bought honeysong purple stokes aster...Stokesia Laevis. I think my nursery is generally very responsible when it comes to the plants they sell, so maybe you are right that these will be a good fit around here. They look beautiful and I hope they can stick! I will be interested to hear your thoughts on them. Thanks!
James
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MaineDesigner
- Green Thumb
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:17 am
- Location: Midcoast Maine, Zone 5b
Jess inquired why I dislike some of the plants I refuse to use. I've been meaning to reply earlier but work demands and a crashed computer delayed my response.
I look at all plants through a highly subject cost:benefit lens. I'm considering the foliage and general architecture of the plant, maintenance demands and insect and disease issues, potential longevity, fragrance, ruggedness, bird or pollinating insect virtues, etc. There is no formal grading system, just my gut response having worked with them in many gardens.
Monarda cultivars just don't make the cut. Between aggressive rhizomes, powdery mildew (not mention rust and leaf spot), and not particularly interesting foliage even when healthy there just aren't enough positives to justify planting it.
Centauera montana is another plant with aggressive rhizomes and tendency to seed heavily if not deadheaded, floppy foliage, and a liking for frequent division add up to making it not worth its keep.
Tradescantias are another plant with floppy, undistinguished foliage. They are time consuming to deadhead properly, short lived, prone to spread, and don't come true should they self seed - why bother
Macleaya cordata has far more architectural/foliage merit than the three plants above BUT it is even more thuggish in its behavior and tends to dye the gardener or his/her clothing in the process of battling it. This almost skates by but not quite.
Rudbeckias are a mixed bag. 'Goldstrum' is dead easy but way over used. The rather hard yellow can be a challenge. Oddly, I rarely see major slug issues with it and Maine has tons of slugs albeit just little guys relative to the Pacific Northwest. Rudbeckia lacinata is a big thug. R. maxima and occasionally R. nitida I do use.
Add Physostegia virginiana, except perhaps for 'Miss Manners' (the jury is still out), and most Lysmachias to my "why bother" list.
Although there are bunch of worthless cultivars there are some really nice Asters. I'm quite fond of the better Aster latiflorus, and Aster oblongifolius cultivars and, with reservations, I like some selections among the Dumosus group, Aster sedifolius, Aster cordifolius, Aster ericoides and Aster laevis. Most A. novae-angliae and A. novi-belgii and cultivars fail my cost:benefit test.
Anemone x hybrida would be a good example of a PIA plant whose virtues out weigh the considerable demands. I am always on the look out for places with physical barrier where I can use it without having to wrestle with it every other year.
I look at all plants through a highly subject cost:benefit lens. I'm considering the foliage and general architecture of the plant, maintenance demands and insect and disease issues, potential longevity, fragrance, ruggedness, bird or pollinating insect virtues, etc. There is no formal grading system, just my gut response having worked with them in many gardens.
Monarda cultivars just don't make the cut. Between aggressive rhizomes, powdery mildew (not mention rust and leaf spot), and not particularly interesting foliage even when healthy there just aren't enough positives to justify planting it.
Centauera montana is another plant with aggressive rhizomes and tendency to seed heavily if not deadheaded, floppy foliage, and a liking for frequent division add up to making it not worth its keep.
Tradescantias are another plant with floppy, undistinguished foliage. They are time consuming to deadhead properly, short lived, prone to spread, and don't come true should they self seed - why bother
Macleaya cordata has far more architectural/foliage merit than the three plants above BUT it is even more thuggish in its behavior and tends to dye the gardener or his/her clothing in the process of battling it. This almost skates by but not quite.
Rudbeckias are a mixed bag. 'Goldstrum' is dead easy but way over used. The rather hard yellow can be a challenge. Oddly, I rarely see major slug issues with it and Maine has tons of slugs albeit just little guys relative to the Pacific Northwest. Rudbeckia lacinata is a big thug. R. maxima and occasionally R. nitida I do use.
Add Physostegia virginiana, except perhaps for 'Miss Manners' (the jury is still out), and most Lysmachias to my "why bother" list.
Although there are bunch of worthless cultivars there are some really nice Asters. I'm quite fond of the better Aster latiflorus, and Aster oblongifolius cultivars and, with reservations, I like some selections among the Dumosus group, Aster sedifolius, Aster cordifolius, Aster ericoides and Aster laevis. Most A. novae-angliae and A. novi-belgii and cultivars fail my cost:benefit test.
Anemone x hybrida would be a good example of a PIA plant whose virtues out weigh the considerable demands. I am always on the look out for places with physical barrier where I can use it without having to wrestle with it every other year.
Last edited by MaineDesigner on Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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cheshirekat
- Senior Member
- Posts: 264
- Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 11:13 pm
- Location: Denver, CO (zone 5)
I don't like weeds. They nearly make me insane. They sneak into my strawberries. They fill up my flower beds so I can't tell which are the seeds I just planted. They grow tall in the backyard and the dogs don't want to wade through them, so they poop on the sidewalk. I wish I had the energy to pull them all up each and every day.
I don't like Ivy. IT gives me the creeps when I see them growing up the sides of houses. Spiders like Ivy.
I don't like Iris. When we first bought this house, there was Iris growing on the south side. I didn't like the smell of them and wanted an herb garden on the south side. I pulled the Iris. It grew back. I pulled more. It grew back again. I dug them up. They grew back. The hubby rototilled four times and they still grew back. I gave up. Since then, I have never liked Iris. We have let that side be taken over by nature. Volunteer trees of some kind filled in, grew thick and finally choked out the Iris. The birds hang out there a lot. They are glad I didn't win the battle with the Iris.
I don't like Ivy. IT gives me the creeps when I see them growing up the sides of houses. Spiders like Ivy.
I don't like Iris. When we first bought this house, there was Iris growing on the south side. I didn't like the smell of them and wanted an herb garden on the south side. I pulled the Iris. It grew back. I pulled more. It grew back again. I dug them up. They grew back. The hubby rototilled four times and they still grew back. I gave up. Since then, I have never liked Iris. We have let that side be taken over by nature. Volunteer trees of some kind filled in, grew thick and finally choked out the Iris. The birds hang out there a lot. They are glad I didn't win the battle with the Iris.
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NewjerseyTea
- Senior Member
- Posts: 143
- Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:14 am
- Location: Piedmont Area, Northern NJ
James, the Stokes aster (Stokesia laevis) is a nice front of the border plant. I use it with Coreopsis moonbeam in the front street bed. Deadhead, divide clumps after a few years if they seem too need it, mulch in the winter in NJ since they are a southeastern coastal native, and provide a soil more on the acid side.
Looking at MaineDesigners list of plants disliked and why is very interesting. We all have a criteria of what makes the cut in our gardens and I realized for me not only does it have to perform well and fit into a 4 season design with something blooming late winter to late fall it has to give back to the ecosystem and be a provider of food or shelter for some creature, preferably many. So the New England and New York asters are on the top of my list as good guys tucked in among the native grasses because they attract and support so many insects and butterflies late in the season. Since they are native they are important to my local area. The other plant that is really alive with buzzing as soon as it blooms (now) is New Jersey Tea (Ceanothus americanus) and worth it's weight in gold in my garden.
Looking at MaineDesigners list of plants disliked and why is very interesting. We all have a criteria of what makes the cut in our gardens and I realized for me not only does it have to perform well and fit into a 4 season design with something blooming late winter to late fall it has to give back to the ecosystem and be a provider of food or shelter for some creature, preferably many. So the New England and New York asters are on the top of my list as good guys tucked in among the native grasses because they attract and support so many insects and butterflies late in the season. Since they are native they are important to my local area. The other plant that is really alive with buzzing as soon as it blooms (now) is New Jersey Tea (Ceanothus americanus) and worth it's weight in gold in my garden.
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NewjerseyTea
- Senior Member
- Posts: 143
- Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:14 am
- Location: Piedmont Area, Northern NJ
You're welcome James. The 2 New Jersey Teas I have took 3 years to establish well so don't be impatient. The first year they died back to the ground and I thought I lost them but they bounced back.
Sorry for highjacking the thread guys. Back to topic, I'm still trying to eliminate Shasta daisies and the small asiatic dayflower.
Sorry for highjacking the thread guys. Back to topic, I'm still trying to eliminate Shasta daisies and the small asiatic dayflower.
I eliminate Leucanthemum x superbum (Shasta Daisy) and Leucanthemum vulgare (Ox-Eye Daisy). Shasta daisies are native to Spain and Portugal. Ox-Eye daisies are native to most of Europe. Both are North American non-natives that have naturalized on this continent-
https://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=LEVU
If you scroll down you will see the map of North America which indicates documented occurrences of the ox-eye daisies.
Basics on their invasiveness here-
https://www.homerswcd.org/invedu/leucanthemum.htm
Unfortunately, they've been around so long many gardeners assume they're a native wildflower and they're frequently sold as "wildflowers" so that adds to the confusion.
Neat ideas on how to dispose of the seeds of some noxious weeds and invasive species-
https://www.ubcbotanicalgarden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=25761
Me, I eliminate them before they go to seed on my property and simply bag the plants and toss them out with the regular garbage.
https://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=LEVU
If you scroll down you will see the map of North America which indicates documented occurrences of the ox-eye daisies.
Basics on their invasiveness here-
https://www.homerswcd.org/invedu/leucanthemum.htm
Unfortunately, they've been around so long many gardeners assume they're a native wildflower and they're frequently sold as "wildflowers" so that adds to the confusion.
Neat ideas on how to dispose of the seeds of some noxious weeds and invasive species-
https://www.ubcbotanicalgarden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=25761
Me, I eliminate them before they go to seed on my property and simply bag the plants and toss them out with the regular garbage.
Oh, very good point. I'd always been told to never compost weeds or invasive species but never really thought about it! You're 100% correct. They're not allelopathic and I'm getting them long before they set seed so I should have been composting them all along! My composter will be very happy! My new raised vegetable beds will be even happier!
Oops not been keeping up with this thread...sorry.James282 wrote:I just bought a few aster plants and have now read that Jess would "never have them in her garden!" I was just wondering what the main problems are with them. They seem to be so pretty and I hope that they can have a place on my property somewhere!
The area I live in is fairly hot and humid. Asters in hot humid weather are always covered in mildew. Their roots spread like spaghetti and unless dug up and split every couple of years the middle dies off and the edges fall over...the taller varieties fall over whatever state they are in!
Once in an area they are very difficult to get rid of. Getting every piece of root out is so hard and invariably they sprout in that area again.
All of that is a generalisation. There are many different forms of aster, some tall, some short, some very airy but your average clump in England is the tall, purple, straggly, mildew infested, overgrown Aster novi-belgii.
I am sure whatever you grow will be beautiful!
EDIT...aha! Just noticed that you mentioned Stokes aster, Stokesia laevis. Could this be where the difference in opinion comes from? Stokesia are beautiful plants. Not known as asters here and rarely seen either. I would have no problem planting those in my garden!
Maine. Thanks for replying. It seems we agree on some things but not others. I wonder if that might be because of the different climates and possibly planting styles. Monarda is sought after here as a nectar plant for bees. The mildew covered by planting in front so only the flowers are really visible. I have not heard or seen evidence of it becoming invasive here. I have Cambridge Scarlet growing in a border and it has stayed relatively well behaved in the same area for may years. Macleaya is used in most of the long borders of the stately gardens in England and has an RHS award of garden merit! I do agree it is a bit of a beast in the wrong place but worth planting if space and restriction is possible. Here it tends to be planted with perennials of equal vigour, Acanthus etc. I did not know it stained, must take more notice next time I come in to contact with it.
Now Anemones...I have to agree with you completely on those. PIA= plant it anyway?
Always beautiful, welcome colour late in the season, vigorous but worth digging out and spreading around. Just something about anemones isn't there. I don't know anyone who doesn't like them.
Now Anemones...I have to agree with you completely on those. PIA= plant it anyway?
Always beautiful, welcome colour late in the season, vigorous but worth digging out and spreading around. Just something about anemones isn't there. I don't know anyone who doesn't like them.
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NewjerseyTea
- Senior Member
- Posts: 143
- Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:14 am
- Location: Piedmont Area, Northern NJ
James, To let you know how aggressive shasta daisies are in NJ, after I carefully removed all traces for a few years I thought I had won the battle only to have a long line of them appear in a area where the asphalt meets the concrete. They started growing in a couple of inches of soil that washed along the raised concrete and happily rooted in the asphalt. In my garden I replaced them with Penstemon digitalis (cultivar Husker Red) that blooms about the same time.
Jess, Those same asters you have trouble with in England are the stars of my autumn garden. I have billows of purple absolutely covered with benifical insects and butterflies.I counted 20 skippers on one plant last fall. I grow the big species asters (New England and New York ) in my hot humid garden with a few tricks. I place them among tall native grasses (switch, little blue stem, and indian grass) and other native plants like penstemon and black eyed susans so they are supported and the lower leaves aren't seen. I cut them back by half once or twice before July 15th.
My monarda does mildew but is pretty and it has no chance to spread since the garden is so packed it can't escape from it's spot.
Jess, Those same asters you have trouble with in England are the stars of my autumn garden. I have billows of purple absolutely covered with benifical insects and butterflies.I counted 20 skippers on one plant last fall. I grow the big species asters (New England and New York ) in my hot humid garden with a few tricks. I place them among tall native grasses (switch, little blue stem, and indian grass) and other native plants like penstemon and black eyed susans so they are supported and the lower leaves aren't seen. I cut them back by half once or twice before July 15th.
My monarda does mildew but is pretty and it has no chance to spread since the garden is so packed it can't escape from it's spot.
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cheshirekat
- Senior Member
- Posts: 264
- Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 11:13 pm
- Location: Denver, CO (zone 5)
I have some New England Aster seeds I got in a trade during winter. I haven't planted the seeds yet because I'm still waiting for other seeds to show up. I was diligently pulling weeds up until a couple weeks ago because some of the flower seeds I expected weren't showing up - I think I pulled them. I planted more seeds so now I'm itching to pull weeds that are starting to get out of control but want to make sure I'm not accidently pulling up plants I want.
I planted a lot of echinacea and blackeyed susans in and around other plants with the hope my flower spots would get thick enough to keep the weeds out better. It's not working as I hoped. In another spot, the poppy seeds I sowed are growing faster than the weeds so I'll be able to weed that spot without fear. It's too bad seedlings can't be bright pink when they emerge so I can differentiate them from the weeds.
I planted a lot of echinacea and blackeyed susans in and around other plants with the hope my flower spots would get thick enough to keep the weeds out better. It's not working as I hoped. In another spot, the poppy seeds I sowed are growing faster than the weeds so I'll be able to weed that spot without fear. It's too bad seedlings can't be bright pink when they emerge so I can differentiate them from the weeds.
I have to admit that sounds really pretty. Perhaps I could start a new gardening trend in UK. Would still mean that I would have to dig out the roots and split them though so maybe not.NewjerseyTea wrote: Jess, I place them among tall native grasses (switch, little blue stem, and indian grass) and other native plants like penstemon and black eyed susans so they are supported and the lower leaves aren't seen. I cut them back by half once or twice before July 15th.
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cheshirekat
- Senior Member
- Posts: 264
- Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 11:13 pm
- Location: Denver, CO (zone 5)
lorax, you are not alone. I never put weeds in my compost. When I found out that some weeds seeds, roots, etc., can be dormant for 50 years until conditions are just right for them to grow again, I decided I could never add weeds to my compost. Compost should get hot enough to kill off a lot of nasties but I can't take that chance. Just like you shouldn't put diseased stuff in the compost because bacteria and virus can survive inhospitable conditions.
Hey cheshirecat, I'm wrong. applestar is right. Most of the plants I'm pulling haven't even bloomed. We're talking nothing but herbaceous plant foliage. And, if it had bloomed... she's right, I could have been deadheading the plants and I should have been feeding the composter everything but the seedheads.
I don't know if you knew this but, there are documented cases of lotus seed that have germinated that were hundreds of years old. Pretty wild how long some seed can remain viable.
I don't know if you knew this but, there are documented cases of lotus seed that have germinated that were hundreds of years old. Pretty wild how long some seed can remain viable.