mr_greggy
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Phalaenopsis Help!!!!

It seems I am working on killing my fourth phal.... and could use some advice.

It had finished blooming so I cut the flower spikes, a new leaf has started to grow so I thought it was relatively healthy.

But now Ive noticed that the existing leaves are turning thinner and lighter green on the edges. Two of them are drooping.

Its currently summer and I live in a hot and humid climate -- we have air conditioning indoors so I put it on a humidity tray. I water it when the roots turn silver/gray but never let the medium completely dry out.

I'm at a loss.. help!!!

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rainbowgardener
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Pictures might help.

What kind of planting medium are they in that leaves the roots visible?

Air conditioning is a tough environment for any plant, especially ones that are adapted to high humidity. Do you mist your plants?

mr_greggy
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the phal is in a clear pot with a bark mix medium.
I do lightly mist it, in the mornings.

I will upload photos later today

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applestar
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Have you checked for scale insects?

mr_greggy
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yes I checked it for insects, there is nothing...

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applestar
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Scales look like dark waxy bumps same color as the leaves and stems -- very easy to miss.

I nearly lost a blooming phal because I didn't realize it was infested until they started showing up all the way up on the flower petals. Then I was finally forced to re-adjust my "vision" and I could see them everywhere. :shock: :evil:

The poor plant is finally scale-free and in recovery now. I have it outside in a dense shade of a tree canopy with the others. I find they bloom better after vacationing outside.

mr_greggy
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thanks for the added detail. I just rechecked it thoroughly to check for dark, waxy bumps..... there is nothing. it looks totally normal except for the drooping and thinning/lightening on the tips of the leaves :(

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applestar
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OK then -- this is approaching territory that I'm not quite certain about, but I'm thinking phals need a rest period after blooming when they need less water, so ...

(1) If you have been watering on same "schedule" it may have caused root loss. Do the roots look healthy through the clear pot?
(2) If your plant has had sufficient time to rest and THEN was starting to grow new leaves, it may have needed more N and decided to cannibalize the older leaves.

I hesitate to say pull it out of the pot and examine the roots if it's still resting, though that would be my inclination to go ahead and examine the roots, prune off any dead ones to healthy tissue and repot in fresh medium. Someone else may know better what the best course would be....

mr_greggy
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yes I was concerned about the watering also... I have actually already pulled it out.
there were some rotted roots which I cut away.... but the majority were healthy and there was a new one sprouting.

as for a rest period I'm not sure........ the new leaf started growing at the same time the last flowers dropped.
so I cut the flower spikes all the way back.
I do fertilize with a water soluble orchid fertilizer once a month... not sure if this is the right thing to do.

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imafan26
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Phals are good beginner houseplants. They have a low light requirement. I am used to talking about orchid light in terms of shading. Phals do well in 70% shade. You can use the hand test for light. Hold your hand about a foot away from the leaf between the plant and the light source whether it is artificial light or a window. If you can't really make out a shadow then you are in low light, barely make a shadow medium light and can see the outline of your hand then you have high light. In medium and high light situations it works pretty well, but in low light. no shadow does not tell you how low is low. A light meter works best. Phals need 1000-1500 ft candles. The leaves should be olive green and while phals do not have firm leaves, they should not be soft or narrow. No orchid likes to be in direct sunlight, so a sheer curtain by the window helps or grow orchids under florescent lights. Light green older leaves could mean that they are getting more light than they originally had. As long as they are not burning it could be ok, but a sheer curtain should help. Yellowing leaves usually means there is a water or root rot issue.

Watering kills more orchids than anything else. A lecturer once said, orchids don't die, we kill them...with love. Mostly too much water.

In the wild phals would grow on trees on branches and forks and the roots would be spread out. Unfortunately people force orchids to live in pots...especially plastic pots. You have a humidity tray and that is great. The phal should still be watered in the sink, if your water is hard or has a lot of chlorine, use water that has been sitting around a few days to dissipate the clorine or bottled water, or rain water if you can collect it. Water to flush the salts out of the pot until the white roots turn green. Drain well and make sure you tip the pot to make sure there is no water left in the crown, which would cause crown rot. Water again when the roots loose the green coloring.

Eventually phals have to be repotted about every two years. They will probably go back into the same pot, full grown phals hardly have to be potted up. Start with a new pot and new orchid bark. Orchid pots need lots of holes and you can always make more or use a clay pot because it just breathes better. If you have some styrofoam pellets use that too. Make sure it is not the degradable kind that melts when water hits it. Soak enough bark to fill the pot in water for 24 hours. You can soak the bark in a 10% bleach solution. After 24 hours most of the bleach will dissipate. Rinse the bark in clean water. Make sure the plant has been watered first. Remove the plant from the pot, wash off any media hanging on. Cut off any dead (black) or soft roots with a sterile pruning shear (use a torch) or clean razor blade. Cut any broken roots too. Put a few pieces of styrofoam loosely in the bottom of the pot, water needs to pass around them. Position the plant in the center of the pot and fill around the roots with handfuls of the soaked bark. Gently tap the pot on the table or ground to settle the bark and continue to fill around the roots until the base of the plant is covered and the orchid does not shake. Make sure that you only fill until the top of the roots are barely covered, the crown will rot if it is potted too deeply. Tap the pot on the ground to settle and firm the bark. Do not water the plant again for at least a week so the cut parts of the plant have a chance to heal. For myself, I plant my Phals in wooden baskets with sphagnum moss, the moss needs to be kept moist since it is very hard to re wet, but not soggy. The roots will grow out of the pot, but they are happier that way. I fertilize Phals with a water soluble fertilizer as vandas and phals roots are exposed at the surface and can be burned by granular fertilizer. I also like to get the rebloom so I only cut the spike above the last node that bloomed, that way there is a chance of a small re bloom. However, if you want bigger flowers, then cut the whole spike.


https://www.aos.org/Default.aspx?id=217
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZXN0_wIzl0
https://agrilife.org/urbantarranthorticu ... levels.htm

mr_greggy
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It is in low light, I think. It is infront of large sliding glass doors which is a bright space, but the orchid never gets direct sunlight.

the leaves are not yellowing, but the tips are turning a lighter green and are noticeably thinner than the rest of the leaf. this started happening a few weeks ago. also, a couple of them are split down the middle.

do you think the splitting/drooping/thinning tips is related to light or watering?

imafan26
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Spliting is usually more mechanical than light or water. Does the plant get blasted with wind or different temperature of air when people go in and out of the door. Phals are cool growing but they come from the Philippines, Australia, Malaysia, Borneo, and Taiwan and they are usually live in trees in a humid forest without much direct sunlight so they don't get a lot of wind and they like night temperatures 60-65 degrees and day temps of 75-85 degrees. Spliting can be caused by a strong breeze when the door is opened especially if the leaves get whipped a bit. Orchids like air circulation but a fan works better to provide it. Orchids do not like getting blasted with cold air.

The leaf tips are a different story.
You have a humidity tray so that should help, but you can also mist the orchid to increase humidity. Low humidity can cause issues with tropical plants causing tip burn.
You said the plant is in a bright room near a window. Put a sheer curtain on the window to avoid direct light hitting the plant during the day. Glass windows can magnify the sunlight and scorch the leaves.
Watering: there are a couple of ways to tell when an orchid needs water. The easiest one for me that also tells me if I have healthy roots is to see the white roots turn green and to water again when the roots are no longer green.

The other way is to water the plant and feel or check the weight of the pot when it is moist but drained. Pick up the plant and notice how much lighter it feels. When you think it needs water, wait one more day and then water. After a while you'll be able to tell how light the pot gets when it needs water. If your water is alkaline or high in salts, try to use water that has been filtered or use rain water.

Fertilizer can also burn orchids and fertilizer burn shows up at the tips. If you fertilize weakly weekly it works better. Use a water soluble fertilizer at 1/4-1/2 strength applied every time you water. Most orchids in the house may only need to be watered once every 7-10 days depending on media and humidity. Orchid Fertilizer comes in a growth formula and a bloom formula. Use the growth formula when you see that the young leaves are coming out and you see the tips of the roots are green. When the velamin covers the roots, the orchid is going dormant and it is best to stop fertilizing for the orchid to rest. About November or so, for most Spring blooming phals switch to a bloom formula.

mr_greggy
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No, the plant doesnt get blasted with wind. It is a balcony door, so it is not used that frequently. Also I live in a hot, humid climate so there is not really any wind to speak of anyways.

Do you think the lighter/thinner tips are a humidity issue? I do mist every morning.
It is near a window, but it does not receive direct light at any time of the day.

Thanks for the feedback ill keep all of this in mind, and definitely need to sort out my fertilization...... if it is growing leaves is it resting???

imafan26
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The best way to tell if an orchid is dormant is to look at the root tips. If the tips of the roots have a green growing point then the orchid is in a growth phase, and if the leaves are growing, it is also in a growth phase. The white velvety covering on the roots are called velamin. When orchids go dormant the velamin covers the root tips so you will not see the green tip. This is usually in the fall for Spring blooming Phals Sept-January.

If you live in a humid climate, what is the indoor temperature high and lows? If they are in range than it should be fine. My living room is too dark to keep phals happy inside and I don't keep any windows open when I am out, so my indoor temperatures in the middle of the day can break a sweat. The happiest spot I found to keep a phal was next to the bathroom window (faces north) I also have a west facing window in the same bathroom so it is very bright. It is the only windows I keep open all of the time. The bathroom provides a lot of humidity.

My phals only come inside when they are in bloom, otherwise they are outdoor plants for me. I keep them on a fence with double shadecloth 47%. Most are in baskets as I am bad and over water plants so they work best for me in clay and baskets. I can water them everyday that way. I am trying to switch to bark but I have only succeeded using large bark, the orchids still hate to be in plastic pots and I have killed quite a few. I have young phals in Sphagnum moss and older phals in bark or just tied to the empty basket like a vanda. In the house the leaves get darker and softer because they are in much lower light and outside the only time I get leaf splitting is from mechanical damage and it takes a lot for that to happen, it has to get pretty windy. The biggest issues I have are the birds which will eat the buds and leaves of the phals and the snails and slugs that will eat the leaves down to the crown.

Sometimes you just have to move the plants around until you find the sweet spot where they are the happiest.

I have a paphiopedulum and thankfully the price has come down. I killed quite a few of them before I found the best spot on my orchid bench for them. They actually die if they are in any other spot.

I have a couple of places where the phals grow well and they are hanging on a fence so they tilt and that keeps the crown from rotting.

TZ -OH6
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I'll just put in a few pennies here.

Neither misting nor humidity trays make a difference in humidity around a plant in an open room. You can test it with a hygrometer. The physics are against it. Evaporation cools air, and cool vapor filled air sinks. Then the water vapor disperses through out the room. So to help the plant with high humidity you need a cool mist or steam evaporator and your wall paper will mildew and peel off.

The easiest way I have found to maintain turgid leaves for orchids in a home environment is with single pot hydroponics using an inert medium (sometimes called semihydroponics).


If the lowest leaf yellows and dies off as the new leaf is growing don't worry about it. It is natural translocation of nutrients common in less than perfect conditions. In nature, Phals rarely have more than two or three leaves. You will get a flush of new roots after that leaf matures.

imafan26
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Actually, it is true if you live in a cold or hot dry climate. It is also true if the plant was in an air conditioned room 24/7. Air conditioning takes the humidity out of the air and plants dry faster. The humidity tray should still be able to help the immediate area around the plant, it won't be enough to humidify a room. That is why people in drier climates mist their plants often.

Greg said he lived in a hot, humid climate. So do I, humidity is indoors and out. The average humidity here is 80%. I don't have air conditioning. Air conditioning and a sealed building reduces but does not eliminate humidity altogether unless the plant is positioned right under a vent.

TZ -OH6
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It doesn't change the physics of it. You can test it (I have) with a hygrometer placed at different heights above a humidity tray in a perfectly still room. I cheated and used high wicking hydroponics pebbles instead of gravel and I still didn't see any change in humidity at heights anywhere near the potted plant. At room temperature water evaporates slowly, cooler air sinks in warmer air, and vapor laden air is heavier than dry air. Most rooms have enough imperceptible convection currents to move vapor far from the source quickly, which can be tested with perfume or vinegar.


Wet gravel bottomed terrariums with any kind of vented top also lose significant amounts of humidity when the fans and lights are on. But once the fans and lights are off the humidity rises fairly quickly.


Hand misting is mostly good for roots on mounted or bare root plants, unless you are talking about the cloud forest stuff. Otherwise it is neutral or bad as it can get water in the leaf axils which can lead to crown/axil rot.


Phals also have CAM photosynthsis like cacti, agave and aloes (most orchids use the normal C-3 or high temp C-4 pathways) so that should tell you how much Phals care about high humidity.

They do like temps around 80-85F much more than they like temps in the mid to low 70s and below.

imafan26
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I actually haven't really needed to test humidity. My test is my nose. Whenever I am in a dry climate I get nosebleeds. Rarely happens at home. In a dry climate it may be very hot but very little sweat. In a humid climate lots of sweat as the body tries to cool off by giving off water.

My normal air in and out of the house is very humid. Right now it is 6 p.m. and my humidity is 83% and the temperature is 73 degrees. Thank goodness for trade winds without them it would feel more like 80. When it is cold here (for me that is anything below 70), if it rains on the ground and it dries up, I won't see anything. But if it rains a little and the sun comes out and it is 88 degrees outside. I will see the steam rising from the road. The road will be too hot to comfortably walk on barefoot so it is much hotter than the air. I think it the water vapor is probably rising at the cooler temperatures. It probably does it slower, since the road takes longer to dry, and even though I don't see the steam, the water had to go somewhere. It might be difficult to measure humidity if there isn't much difference in temperature of the substrate holding the water and the air.

As for humidity trays, I don't really need them. I have plenty of humidity for the plants and I only keep plants in the house for very brief periods, they are much happier outside where they get more light and air. I also can get lazy if there is a saucer under a pot so it forces me to take the plant to the sink to water and drain them. There is less chance then of wicking water from the tray and rotting the roots. But in a drier climate the humidity trays can't really hurt.

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applestar
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I guess both of you are confirming the reason I find mine blooms better if I vacation them outside, and why one year when there was a severe drought enough to cause ground to crack, they actually did not fare well. And why this year with weekly rain enough not to need to water the garden beds, they are doing fine up on the picnic bench instead of on the ground in the shade garden. -- very humid and muggy this year.

During July, I kept thinking it was getting too hot and maybe I should bring them inside, but they just looked happy, even when other container plants were flagging and needing daily watering.

I think too I need to review my timing to bring them back inside and make sure to do so before it gets too cool. (though I'm puzzling over the forecast this week that it's supposed to get down in the mid-50's -- in the middle of August??? -- will it hurt them to stay out for the couple of nights?)

-- just re-checked forecast !!! it's supposed to get down to 52°F tonight !!! :? --

This past winter, due to space constraints more than anything else, I put my phals (and pineapples) on indoor tented "greenhouse" shelves -- it has zippered vinyl cover. I originally got it for indoor mushroom growing. -- they did very well in there. I guess those Victorian Wardian and fancy Orchid cases DO serve to provide orchids the kind of environment they need.

If you have a lot of plants, grouping them together creates a microclimate and can increase humidity for the plant in the center of the grouping, so think about who gets the royal treatment. :wink:

imafan26
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Phals come very moist places. Temperature can vary from tropical to nearly frigid. Some places have monsoon followed by a dry season. They are most often found in forested areas and in the low light areas rather than out in the open. When orchids were first brought to England they believe that they had to be kept in steamed hot houses, its a wonder any survived. In actuality many orchids live in places that get rain nearly every day, but the orchids themselves live in the driest part of the rain forest...the trees. Orchid roots are designed to capture water from mist or dew as well as rain but up in the trees they don't sit in water and the roots are exposed to the air so they can dry fairly quickly.

Even some paphiopedilums can be found floating on peat moss in bogs. They are still in the driest part of the bog.

You can tell by looking at the orchid's pseudo bulb, how much water it needs. Paphs and Phals have virtually no psuedobulbs so they come from places that have fairly ample moisture. Besides, it is remarkable how long orchids can last without water. They are very good at preserving moisture.


Catleyas, grammatophyllums have larger psuedobulbs so they don't need to be watered as often and are often found in the crotches of trees but not on the ground. Quite a feat since grammatophyllums can get huge and weigh hundreds of pounds.
Cymbidiums and the oncidium alliance have fine roots and small psuedobulbs so they can store some water. Oncidiums are found in trees and on rocks but not in the ground. Cymbidiums are terrestrial, epiphytic and lithophytic. They are very tolerant of cold weather and actually do better in cooler climates.

Sometimes I find that the best media for me to use is no media at all. I just turn a small pot upside down in a larger one and tie the bare root orchid to the pot or basket. That way I can water every day without killing them. My best growing orchids are growing the outside of the pot and have their roots hanging out. Media actually is there basically to hold the plant in place. Different media and pots lose water at different rates. This can be an advantage or disadvantage, depending on how you water. My orchids are outside, in summer, they need water nearly every day. I would water less in summer if I had them in plastic and bark, but when the rainy season comes they will rot. Bark also breaks down much faster than rocks or no media at all. When bark breaks down it holds on to fungus and mold, impedes drainage and eventually rots the roots. That is why plants in bark need to be repotted before the media breaks down and why I can wait on the rock and no media plants a while longer.

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