Applestar's 2017 Garden

[Java]

Just curious. How much land area do your plant cover/need?
I am in a apartment complex and I start just 2 or 3 plants. Neighbors look at me like I am starting a forest.

[applestar]

I do live in a single family house ...but in a development, so limited. If you really want to know, scroll down the page to the "similar topics" list and check out my previous years' garden threads. -- I have 7 or 8 sub-sectioned beds•areas that I plant in, but due to surrounding trees and house shadows, they are categorized into "full"-sun, part-sun and limited-sun areas and, thereby, what I can grow where.

I have never tried to calculate the actual total square footage, although if you are clever, you might be able to figure it out from all the (ad nauseum) details and photos I have the tendency to post.

...I know these all look like a lot, but I like experimenting with different ways of starting seeds and growing plants. I like to learn how to grow different vegetables and fruits, and I'm always in pursuit of BEST tasting variety so I have to grow as many different varieties as I can each season. I'm also comparing their performance under different growing conditions.

As I identify favorite returning varieties, each year, there is a bit of an overselection going on to grow the favorites while also trying out new varieties and comparing to the faves.

I like to harvest enough for fresh eating, freezing, and preserving.

[applestar]

Started bunch more tomatoes and 3 more peppers. I intended to start Doe Hill but forgot..... also started some broccoli, cabbage, and a trial sowing of Land Seaweed/Okahijiki (it might still be a bit early).


This is not a very good photo, but the cut off jug (yes with chickweed growing in it) and the black pot contain Pea eggplant cuttings. They were hit pretty hard by the mites, but they seem to be coming back. If they recover, I'm going to proceed with the New Project! -- grafting eggplants onto the pea eggplant rootstock to make them more likely to be perennial for overwintering. Currently, Kamo and Hari eggplant seeds have sprouted. Hoping for saved seeds of Listada di Gandia and Orient Express to germinate as well (hopefully the fungus gnats didn't get to them... I increased the heatmat thermostat temp in case they want to be warmer.... ) so I can have a selection to choose from, but right now Kamo definitely (Hari has been easier to grow than any other eggplant variety so Grafting doesn't seem necessary )

[applestar]

1 qt. ricemilk box is still the best for seed starting. The blocks had dried enough that I was able to move them without incident. For the one that melted, I gathered up most of the collapsed mix and pressed a base (about 1/2 inch) in the rice milk box for the upper part to sit on, then used a cut off piece of paper towel roll to give it some support. I'm also using a flattened tube to separate them along the middle of the two rows. I'm not sure if these will work -- I guess I will find out.

[applestar]

I managed to get three more blocks in the ricemilk box. The mix is a better ratio this time. It would be great to get even 10 blocks in there, but the blocks might fracture if I push on them too much.... another thing is I need a thicker rod for making the central hole because I can't get these seedlings in deep enough to bury to the cotyldons, though I might be able to if I transplant slightly less developed ones. -- By the time they grow true leaves, the seedlings have branched roots that are difficult to tuck into the narrow hole made by the bolt I'm using. I wish I had a bigger nut-snd-bolt. Until I can find or get one, I guess I will see if there is a way to put something around this bolt


Although last year was a disaster in growing tomato plants to maturity, I managed to do a lot of experimenting with the younger seedlings, and from last year's experiments, I know I can get them growing to a pretty good size even in the K-cups if they are individually planted deep. This will save space, and I only have to uppot once more before putting them outside to harden off.

[wisconsindead]

About how long to you go from germination to planting outdoors for your tomatoes?

I am doing a shorter length of time this year. I will probably start germination of my tomatoes in about a week and then plant outdoors the end of May. So roughly 2 months is what I'm going to try. Last year I did probably ~3 months and it was hard to deal with how big they got and also keep them happy in the pots I had.

[applestar]

My average last frost is last week of April. I can generally, absolutely safely plant tomatoes by 2nd week of May. I usually plant sometime in between. I've tried starting seeds as early as mid-February which is still basically dead cold of winter. I found it difficult due to having to adjust for cold room temperatures to get the seeds to germinate, and once the seedlings outgrew the baby seedling shelves, it was still too cold in the garage V8 nursery -- as low as 30's even below freezing.

So back to beginning of March to mid-March as ideal starting time.

You also have to consider where you will be growing the seedlings. If you have warm area to grow them, they grow taller faster. If don't have adequate lights, they grow taller and lankier. Since my seedlings spend some time in the garage once temp out there gets to be 40's low and 50's to 60's high, they grow slower and generally stockier. If you have a greenhouse or coldframe where daytime high might get to be 70's, 80's even if nighttime low is 40's, 50's, they will grow faster.

I'm thinking of rigging something up again, but days like today when March winds are roaring, I'm not sure I'm equal to the task of building something sturdy enough....

[applestar]

Seedzip started these yesterday, and separated some more into individual K-cups yesterday. A lone Giant Marconi sprouted....

Tomato, Bear Creek (tbug EGT'15)
Tomato, Big Cheef Stripes (kygreg'12?)
Tomato, Faelan's First Snow (DDsack.september'15)
Tomato, Grandma Oliver's Chocolate (gixx'13)
Tomato, Raymondo's Australian Mist 2016
Tomato, Rebel Yell (asmx'13)
Tomato, Steelhead (itali'15.Plant#2)
Tomato, Terhune x ? F3? HBR'16



I misplaced a couple of varieties of peppers and tomatoes. I remember pulling the seed packets to start, but can't find them now. If they don't turn up by this weekend, they will have to wait until next opportunity -- maybe in the summer for starting the Winter Indoor Garden.

[SQWIB]

I am humbled by your gardening variety!

[applestar]

[SQWIB]

You do know that you are going to be my "go to" when selecting next years seeds!

[applestar]

We can pm when the "eggs are hatched"

[applestar]

I might need to start a separate thread for this -- I wonder where I put my rice thread?

This year I'm going to grow Koshihikari+purple hulless barley (I think I have to sow that soon)+crimson clover. I want to succession plant per 1-straw rev. But I can't grow the barley over the winter here, so I may have to improvise... or grow the barley elsewhere.

I have a new special corn variety to try too.

[applestar]

Started some more --

Flower, Baloon Star Flower blue (DDsack.september'14)
Flower, Peony Poppy pink double (orig. seeds from New Zealand '14 DDsack.september'16)
Flower, Peony Poppy red double (original seeds from Swallowtail Garden'15 DDsack.september'16)
Herb, Mexican Mint Marigold 2014
Celery, Tango (fedco'12-13)
Celery, Ventura (fedco'12-13)

Those celery seeds might be too old. I already had trouble getting the Same batch of Mexican mint marigold to germinate last year -- if these don't sprout, I'm tossing the seeds. I think I have Chinese Celery seeds... I should also see if I harvested•saved any celery seeds last year. (REALLY need to re-org my seed stash before this year's seed harvest•saving starts )

Two of my crosses sprouted along with a few others --

Pepper, Giant Marconi - mottled (SIP'15 ... 13d
Eggplant, Orient Express (F2 2.1.15) ... 15d
Tomato, Mucha Miel (gerardo'Nov2016) ... 4d
Tomato, WS.FFS {Whippersnapper x FFSlv} F4 heart 8.16.16 ChLn ... 4d
Tomato, Wes '14 ... 4d
Cabbage Chinese, Michihili Ellie ... 4d
Tomato, M.CF.F3.P2 {Maglia Rosa x Coyote+FFSlv} F3 small pink cherry Sept'16 ... 4d

[applestar]

I'm a little bit worried about those seedlings that have extremely pale colored true leaves. At first I thought the variety might be chatreuse leaf, but that doesn't appear to be the case (The potato leaf ones that are most obvious are Dwarf Blazing Beauty). I tried letting them dry a bit more today, then misted and watered with a pinch of epsom salts in the water. Maybe that will help.

[applestar]

I gathered up some baby wormy-worms from the vermicomposter and put one each in the K-cups with pale colored leaves.

As of this morning --

[applestar]

So, just to re-cap ... these are the varieties that have sprouted (I have one or more of) so far

• SPROUTED VARIETIES: 45 •

Broccoli, Green Goliath SESE
Cabbage Chinese, Michihili Ellie
DGREENS, ETC. SPROUTED TOTAL: 2
Eggplant, Hari (g2'15)
Eggplant, Kamo (kitazawa '15-'16)
Eggplant, Orient Express (F2 2.1.15)
EGGPLANTS SPROUTED TOTAL: 3
Pepper, Giant Marconi - mottled (SIP'15)
Pepper, Jalapeño (winter Feb'15/9.5.16)
Pepper, Jaloro Jalapeño (paprika garden 8.5.16, Ellie's last)
Pepper, NuMex Jalmundo (vendor Ellie'15) - may not be true to type
Pepper, NuMex Lemon Spice (patihum 8.16.16)
Pepper, Santa Lucia Island (paprika deck 8.21.16)
Pepper, Shishito (DrBTX'15)
Pepper, SuperVar Fish (Jan'15)
Pepper, Sweet Chocoloco (Ellie'15)
Pepper, Trinidad Scorpion Chocolate (geoffrey44)
PEPPERS SPROUTED TOTAL: 10
Tomato, (was) Alonzo's Medals F3 (HBR 9.11.16) bi-color good antho shoulders
Tomato, Amana Orange (Ellie EGT'14)
Tomato, Amy Sue (digitS'15) Giant Syrian x Marianna's Peace (F5? F6?)
Tomato, Brandywine OTV (vendor EGT'14)
Tomato, Cheste (gerardo'Jul2016)
Tomato, De Colgar Papuo PL (gerardo'Jul2016)
Tomato, Delicious (itali 2016)
Tomato, Dwf Blazing Beauty (itali 2016)
Tomato, Dwf Brandy Fred PL (itali 2016)
Tomato, Dwf Chocolate Lightning (tbug)
Tomato, Dwf Orange Cream (itali 2016)
Tomato, Elser's Brown Derby (itali 2016)
Tomato, Ernie's Plump (meb'16)
Tomato, Isolde (clara 2016)
Tomato, M.CF.F3.P2 {Maglia Rosa x Coyote+FFSlv} F3 small pink cherry Sept'16
Tomato, Mara Pulcent (clara 2016)
Tomato, Maskotka (Clara 2016)
Tomato, Mikhalych (tb 2016)
Tomato, Opalka (windingwoods'13 Marsha)
Tomato, Ramallet D’es Figueral (gerardo'Nov2016)
Tomato, Roman Candle (2012 TDRR'14-15 M-Z)
Tomato, Sergeant Pepper's (itali'16)
Tomato, The Witz (digitS'16) Woodle Orange x unknown F7 or F8
Tomato, Uluru Ochre (2016)
Tomato, Vernissage Yellow Clear Flesh (VGC'15)
Tomato, Wes '14
Tomato, WS.FFS {Whippersnapper x FFSlv} F4 heart 8.16.16 ChLn
TOMATOES SPROUTED TOTAL: 27
TPS, Amarosa {sp?} (meb'15)

...and these have germinated in the seedzip today...

Tomato, Faelan's First Snow (DDsack.september'15)
Tomato, Grandma Oliver's Chocolate (gixx'13)
Tomato, Raymondo's Australian Mist 2016
Tomato, Rebel Yell (asmx'13)
Tomato, Terhune x ? F3? HBR'16

[applestar]

I forgot about these....

They were started early but have been in the Garage V8 since before the cold snap -- temps in the 30's°F -- so they have been growing very slowly. Plus I sometimes forget or didn't want to go out there in the cold, and I let them dry out a couple of times, too.... Then got busy with the solanacea seed starting and neglected them. I uppotted -- a couple of weeks ago? -- when they were looking near death and didn't even make a note of it in my notes. At least they are looking better.

I dropped the ball with the onion seedlings because I had meant to push them to grow with extra fertilizer, etc.



I should start hardening these and get them ready to plant in the garden. Once the garage temp stabilizes above 50°F, uppotted tomato seedlings will be moved out to the Garage V8.

[applestar]

Was separating some seedlings today -- 1 K-cup of Michihili seedlings turned into 7 K-cups, 1 K-cup of supervariegated Fish pepper seedlings turned into 5 K-cups, 1 K-cup of Kamo eggplant seedlings into 3 K-cups with 4 just seedleaf little ones in 1 K-cup (I.e. 6 seedlings total). 13 K-cups exactly fit in the Chinese takeout trays I'm using right now, so these filled another tray.

Using recycled the K-cups is a great space saver, but this method, like the spoonzip technique, can lull me into starting too many seeds, then I get in trouble when it's time to uppot them, and eventually when it's time to plant them.

... but when I think standard 2 Tbs measure ground coffee per cup, so 4 ...well let's say 5 to allow for some loss in recovery... K-cups equal 1 cup of UCG for adding to the compost pile or feeding the vermicomposter worms, I can't help wanting to recover the UCG's rather than jut tossing them out, and it's so easy to just cut off the rim to remove the cover and free the glued-on filter, then make three cuts on the bottom edge for drainage. I might as well prep the K-cups for use, then I might as well use them.... hahaha. (Oh! And I rinse off the filters with water for watering the container plants with UCG --- too funny, right? just call me Scrooge )

[applestar]

Yesterday's Tally :

# CONTAINERS GROWING : 127
# NOT SPROUTED YET : 37

So the numbers might seem like a lot but actually represent only about 2 trays of cell inserts worth, I think? The difference as I see it, is that there are NO WASTED CELLS TAKING UP VALUABLE SPACE -- those empties used to drive me mad.

The way I'm doing it makes sense for me because the small sandwich clamshells and Chinese takeout trays take up little space and can be tucked here and there between overwintered plants in the Winter Paradise shelves. And the temperatures in the Garage V8 nursery have steadied above freezing by this time to allow some of the overwintered plants in the WP to be moved out to make room. Once the number of growing K-cups reach sufficiency as above they are taking up equivalent space in the WP that can be occupied by webtray/solid trays, and the Chinese take out trays waste space -- filling the 1020 size trays will actually save space because more K-cups fit in same amount of space in the webtray.

It looks like It's time to see if I have same size seedlings enough to fill up a webtray -- they have to be same height.


-- Separated --

Cabbage Chinese, Michihili Ellie

Eggplant, Kamo (kitazawa '15-'16)

Pepper, Giant Marconi - mottled (SIP'15)
Pepper, SuperVar Fish (Jan'15)

Tomato, Mara Pulcent (clara 2016)
Tomato, Wes '14
Tomato, WS.FFS {Whippersnapper x FFSlv} F4 heart 8.16.16 ChLn

TPS, Amarosa {sp?} (meb'15)


...Uppotted to 5oz...

Tomato, Amy Sue (digitS'15) Giant Syrian x Marianna's Peace (F5? F6?)
Tomato, Elser's Brown Derby (itali 2016)
Tomato, Ernie's Plump (meb'16)
Tomato, Mara Pulcent (clara 2016)
Tomato, Mikhalych (tb 2016) -- (2)
Tomato, Sergeant Pepper's (itali'16) -- (2)

Also discovered this one and uppotted in 5 oz --
Tomato, Mikhalych (tb 2016) that is NOT (it is a PL) -- this might be Amy Sue? ...looks very much like others and the two varieties had been separately potted up in one sitting. If there's a K-cup labeled Amy Sue with RL seedling, that would be the corresponding Mikhalych.


...moved PBSB in RMbox to V8... {in terms of handling, the K-cups are easier and require less potting mix -- perennial issue when using soilblocks. Plus considering the seedlings need to be separated out and planted into the soilblocks when smaller, the soilblocks take up space that I can't afford. Added to that the fact that soilblocks can't be left out in the rain while hardening off.... hmm I wanted to revisit soilblocks because they are fantastic tools and grow very healthy seedlings, but this might be a technique better left until I actually have a greenhouse or a coldframe to grow them in. I picture kind that can be opened along the sides into roofed-but-open structure for hardening off to protect them from the rain.}

[applestar]

Folks who are expert at spreadsheet data manipulation will probably chuckle at my amateurish delight, but here are a few of the ways I use the functions to keep track of the seed starting progress

[applestar]

…it's not easy to tell in the photos, but some of the yellowed leaf tomato seedlings have started to green up a bit. A couple of the peppers are still looking a bit critical. Hopefully they will turn around. It's tough to not want to keep trying different things, but I think that would be a mistake. I need to be patient and see if the remedies I already applied will have an effect, or I'll end up killing them with kindness.

…Maybe this one:

[applestar]

Hmmm... the extremely pale pepper seedlings? -- I found aphids on those I saw a ladybug in the WP shelves yesterday or the day before, but next time I find one somewhere, I will move it to the seedling trays.

I only saw a couple of ants in the Winter Paradise area a few days ago -- maybe it was them, but it IS that time of the year -- I'm eradicating massive invasion from the Winter Wonderland -- they moved into one or two of the orchid containers and the Peach Bhut Not on the Cool Gang floor.

Some people don't think it's a good idea to get the seedling foliage wet, but I mist them thoroughly regularly, and aphids "stand on their tippytoes" when you get them wet, lifting their spiricles along their bodies up above the drop of water that cling to them.

That's how I spotted them as "unnatural bumps" on the seedlings. With no Garden Patrol to help out, I used my "sharp-pointed bamboo skewer method" to pluck them off the delicate seed and true leaves.

[wisconsindead]

Hey Applestar,

Do you grow your onions in clusters? What dimensions do you plant for spacing once you take them outdoors?

[applestar]

I reorganized and evaluated progress of the seedlings --


In the top photo,

- most of the peppers are now in the two Chinese trays tucked under the t-5 lights where it's warmest

- this also where the newly sprouted and germinated in spoonseedzip are being kept in sandwich clamshells

- The K-cups in Chinese tray in the front need to be uppotted -- all are growing significant roots out of the drainage holes. That one super pale pepper in this tray had two more aphids on it this morning.

- all seedlings uppotted to 5 oz cups will be sent out to Garage V-8. I may skip 5 oz cups and uppot to larger cups if I can make enough room in V-8 by sending some of the overwintered frost-tolerant plants and started the lettuce and asian greens to be hardened off outside (no frost in the forecast for next 10 days after tomorrow anyway)


In the bottom photo,

- The Michihili and broccoli can go out to the Garage V8.

- Consolidated the tomato, eggplant, and tps k-cups in the webtray with plenty of room to spare now for separating multiples and sprouted spoonzips to be planted.

- The K-cups in Chinese tray in the webtray are starting to grow some roots out of the drainage holes so need to stay in the drip tray so as not to dry out too much.

- The 6 sturdy dwarfs in the larger Mocha Mochi ice cream cells are growing significant roots out of the bottom and need to be uppotted.

[applestar]

...I was going to keep things on a "sane" level -- notice I didn't start 100+ varieties of tomatoes... but things are getting a bit again....

[applestar]

I prepped these peas for pre-germinating today by soaking in water for 6 hours then pouring out the water. Rinsed again for the night. Planning to sow germinated seeds in plastic egg cartons again -- maybe with a slight modification to last year's method. We will see....

[applestar]

[applestar]

Ha. I usually show the seedlings -- I've mentioned I eschew the cells and prefer individual containers. You may have noticed how I organize and group them by height. You might remember me mentioning how I play "seedling jenga" to keep them as close to the lights as possible....

Here are some views of the precarious and haphazard way I grow my seedlings

[applestar]

Here are my Wes seedlings -- as you can see, they should have the narrower RL leaves that are wispy-sh but not as skinny and limp as full wispy like the sausage types or Sgt. Pepper's. Big Cheef Stripes in the back ground and a Dwarf Blazing Beauty on the left …hate it when I forget to turn the label to the camera. Have no clue what that one on the right is, but looks like might be another dwarf.


They should also shoot up and be among the taller seedlings.


TPS (true potato seed) Amarosa (meb'15). They are slower to grow at first compared to other solanacea, but will become strong plants similar to tomatoes -- just more sprawling -- and will be planted after last frost.




...trying something new this year...

This looks like my answer to the Pill Bottle Soil Block issues -- I.e. not fitting satisfactorily in the Rice Milk carton and the seedlings needing to be smaller than I feel deserves the amount of space occupied. 14 tubes per rice milk carton.



The root-ball/potting mix slipped out of the Kcup fits right down the tube. ...more about this later.

[applestar]

PEA snow XTpole, CAROUBY DE MAUSSANE (Superseeds'15-16)
PEA shelling Xdwarf, TOM THUMB (Superseeds'15-16)

Started on 3/30; Starting to sprout on 4/3 -- 4 days



...other egg cartons contain...
Pea snow pole, Shiraz (tbug)
Pea snap dwarf, Ambrosia (Ellie'15)
Pea shelling pole, Mayfair tbug
Pea snap pole, CASCADIA (Superseeds'15-16)
Pea shelling dwarf, Knight (Ellie'14)

[pow wow]

You're very organized. I need some of that.lol Your seedlings are looking heathy.
Enjoyed reading through your posts applestar.

[applestar]

Thanks, pow wow!

This is the fun part -- I love starting seeds and watching them grow.

...I have to say... I usually do pretty well up to this point. It's the next phase when things get a little hairy.

[applestar]

Late-but-must-have tomatoes and pepper seeds are speed-and-control-germinated in spoon seedzip of sandDE (“spoonzip method”). Two seeds have germinated in the top-right seedzip


F2 seeds of {Dwarf Pink Passion x (Husky Gold x Orange Minsk,dwarf,F2 x Zolotoe Serdste x Orange Minsk,F1)F3}

[applestar]

I'm not ready to plant them, but they are ready to be planted

...these are...
PEA snow XTpole, CAROUBY DE MAUSSANE (Superseeds'15-16)
PEA shelling Xdwarf, TOM THUMB (Superseeds'15-16)



I don't want them to grow through to top opening and unfold their leaves because then it will be a pain to extricate them

[applestar]

DD helped me to set up the Cabbage Kids Nursery -- I saw a Cabbage White butterfly out and about already.



...I'll put the lettuce seedlings in here too for now. It should help them avoid the aphids for the time being...

[applestar]

These are starting to sprout, too

LEFT PHOTO:
Shiraz and Ambrosia on the left; Mayfair on the right

RIGHT PHOTO:
Cascadia and Knight



Pea snow pole, Shiraz (tbug)
Mar 30, 2017 Apr 5, 2017 6d

Pea snap dwarf, Ambrosia (Ellie'15)
Mar 30, 2017 Apr 5, 2017 6d

Pea shelling pole, Mayfair (tbug)
Mar 30, 2017 Apr 5, 2017 6d

Pea snap pole, CASCADIA (Superseeds'15-16)
Mar 30, 2017 Apr 5, 2017 6d

Pea shelling dwarf, Knight (Ellie'14)
Mar 30, 2017 Apr 5, 2017 6d

[applestar]

Uppotted another bunch of indeterminate tomato seedlings in 14 paper tube in Rice milk carton. Only since 4/2 but the first one went through explosive growth. Every year, I think that the K-cup seedlings are like seeds themselves and happily grow into whatever larger containers I put them in.

Here's a comparison of the two. The three varieties you can see best in the left photo are antho (purple) stemmed Sgt. Pepper's and the two Marz Pulcent.



It will be tricky to extricate the tubes of leaf interlocked seedlings later, but I can cut the sides of the rice milk box open for easier access.

Compared to these, the seedlings that have been out in the cooler garage V8 temperatures for longer are darker and toughened up more. The Pill Bottle Soil Blocks are approximately same size as the paper tubes, small white cups are 3 oz, and the larger clear cups with my oldest dwarf varieties are 9 oz.




I have something odd going on with the Delicious seedlings -- one of them is a PL (potato leaf). Maybe an accidental cross? The eggplant Hari is in a 5 oz cup.


... I just brought these out to the V8 Nursery today as well -- so the foliage is soft and lighter green like the new rice milk group.

[applestar]

Discoveries among the tomato seedlings --

Spotted this bit of variegation starting already on the first set true leaves -- this is my Whippersnapper x Faelan's First Snow F4 (WS.FFS.F4) from a heart-shaped pink saladette last year. Variegation showing this early should mean we could expect a pretty good show in the next several sets of leaves while the temperatures are cool to moderate


Not sure why these and ONLY these two Dwarf Chocolate Lightning seedlings have these lighter colored new leaves.

...according to my notes, I have 5 of these -- 2 more in 9oz cups which are in the Garage V8 and 1 more KCup -- somewhere... I'll have to go find them tomorrow and see if they look the same.

-- just realized the 9 oz Dwf Chocolate Lightning is in the front in the pic I posted yesterday, and it looks all green. Maybe these two are in that faulty mixture I managed to make. I'll repot them in a fresh mix tomorrow and hope for the best.

...rest of the tray...

[applestar]

Newest babies to join my expanding citrus family collection -- a friend sent me a fully ripe key lime fruit from her tree when I mentioned wanting to try growing from seeds and lamented that I couldn't find any in the stores and the produce guy said maybe in the summer time.

After keeping the fruit -intact- in refrigerated storage, I extracted and sowed the precious seeds on March 8th in two different conditions for insurance. I usually tell people it takes about 4 weeks or a month... these were right on the money