almaler
Full Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:01 pm
Location: Austin, Texas

Please evaluate my roses

Hello Everyone,

This is the first year my roses have been in the ground. I planted them back in March. I have posted a few pics. If you wouldn't mind looking at them and making any suggestions. I have some leaves that are looking pretty brown and sometimes the buds on my roses die before they even open up or they barely open up and then they are withered away. Thanks for your time - all comments are appreciated.



[url]https://tinypic.com/erncys.jpg[/url]

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[url]https://tinypic.com/erwf87.jpg[/url]

[url]https://tinypic.com/erwfhe.jpg[/url]

[url]https://tinypic.com/erwh0l.jpg[/url]

[url]https://tinypic.com/erwhf7.jpg[/url]

[url]https://tinypic.com/erwhs0.jpg[/url]

grandpasrose
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Posts: 1651
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:21 pm
Location: Quesnel, BC, Canada - Zone 4a

Welcome to the forum almaler!!
You certainly took on a big project all at once! I am basing my opinion about your problem, lacking some information. I do not know what type of area or zone you live in and I don't know what kind of soil they are planted in.
Bearing that in mind, some things are very obvious. You have a number nutrient deficiencies which is your biggest problem. You also have a couple of pest problems as well.

It is evident that you have leaf cutter bees, and I suspect, as you say your flowers sometimes bud but don't open and then die, that you may also have capsid bugs. The leaf cutter bees are actually a beneficial bug, so I
would not try to get rid of them, as they are working for you. To eliminate the capsid bugs, a spraying of insecticidal soap, or neem oil should do the trick.

Now for your biggest problem - nutrition. I don't know what kind of soil you have your roses planted in, but it needs fixing up! You need to add compost, well rotted manure, alfalfa meal, leaf mould, epsom salts and kelp (if you can get it) to the soil with your roses. You should then continue mulching them with these materials on an ongoing basis to build up the quality of your soil.

I see that you have a bark mulch around your roses. That is probably robbing some of the nutrients from you soil as the bark does its own rotting.

I would also water them with either a compost, manure, or rose tea on a regular basis as well to get them back on their feet. You can find the recipes for these teas either in the Organic Rose Care thread in this forum, or in the Organic forum.

Also, roses like to be watered very deeply, and not from the top, but at ground level. They should not be watered every day for a short time, but rather less often, for a longer time, getting the water down deep. Don't however, leave them sitting in soaking wet soil for days on end, as they don't like soggy feet either.

Now, having said all of this, not knowing where you are from, in most areas, fall is here, and roses should be shutting themselves down for dormancy for winter. Therefore, you should not feed your roses anything until spring, as you will be encouraging them to begin growing when they should be slowing down. What you can do, is clean up any damaged or diseased foliage from around your bushes and destroy it (do not put it in the compost). If you are in an area that requires winter care for your roses, there are thorough instructions as to what to do in the Winter Protection Articles thread in this forum.

I hope this helps you, and feel free to ask more questions or send more pictures - they really help. A close picture of one of the buds that is failing would be good.
Best of luck, and let us know how you do, and again ask for help if you need it - that's why we're here! :wink:
VAL
VAL (Grandpa's Rose)

The Helpful Gardener
Mod
Posts: 7493
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 2:17 am
Location: Colchester, CT

Seem a touch leggy as well; certainly because of the nutrition but some more pruning would probably help to bush them out some (creating more flowering points as well). That said, I have little to add to Val's excellent commentary (as usual) :roll:

You would not be the first person to follow Val's advice and see amazing results; she has saved a few rose gardens since she's been here and probably a lot before that...

Scott

grandpasrose
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Posts: 1651
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:21 pm
Location: Quesnel, BC, Canada - Zone 4a

Scott you are just too nice. Thank you. Now I'm embarrassed. but more assured of your trust. Thanks. :oops:
VAL
VAL (Grandpa's Rose)

almaler
Full Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:01 pm
Location: Austin, Texas

Further questions

Thank you for the detailed evaluation!!!!

I live in Austin, Texas which I believe puts me in zone 8. The roses are planted in Rose soil so I am sort of surprised that the soil is a problem. I guess this is just my ignorance showing itself :(

Just wondering - you said some things are very obvious. How can you tell?? What do you see that tells you there are nutrient deficiencies and pest problems? This way I can look for those signs in the future. I have only seen one type of pest on the roses - I assumed it was an aphid because you hear about those being a problem for roses all of the time. They are green bugs and have long legs and, of course, are very ugly. :evil:

So I need to spray Neem Oil to get rid of Capsid bugs - should I spray on a regular basis?

Should I get rid of the bark mulch all together? I thought I was helping the roses hold in moisture by putting that down. You said I should add several things to the soil - all at once? How much?!

I have been trying to water my roses once a week and I water each one for one minute - do you think that is a good method of watering?

This is the only thing I have ever fed my roses and I try to do it once a month - https://plantworldnursery.com/publishingdirectory/subs/backsubs/fertilizer/rosefertilizer.htm
I use the insecticide variety.

Again, thank you SO much for your help!!

almaler
Full Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:01 pm
Location: Austin, Texas

Here are some more pictures

[img]https://tinypic.com/et5y8n.jpg[/img]

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[img]https://tinypic.com/et62c0.jpg[/img]

grandpasrose
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Posts: 1651
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:21 pm
Location: Quesnel, BC, Canada - Zone 4a

Hi there Almaler!
Those pictures were very helpful in assuring that nutrition is your problem.
You asked how I can tell how. Here are a few pointers:
On the third photo, the leaves are pale, with dark green veining. That indicates a lack of iron.
The reddish colored leaves with the dark green veined leaves indicates a lack of phosphorous.
The yellow and brown edges on the leaves indicates a lack of potassium and/or zinc.
I suspect that the reason your buds are growing so strangely is either a shortage of calcium or phosphorous.

You said that you used rose soil to plant your roses in. I am curious what you mean by rose soil? What did it consist of?
When you use chemical fertilizers like the one you are using, and others, you are giving your plant a quick burst of energy, that then burns out until you fertilize it again. None of this fertilizer remains in the soil. Also, the fertilizer you are using is high in nitrogen, which explains why your bushes are so tall and leggy, with lots of leaves.
You are wiser, in the long run, to add organic material to your soil to build up the nutrients your roses need so that they are there whenever they need them, not just when they get a burst of fertilizer. This is why I suggested you make the additions to your soil. You can add these materials all at once if you like, or a little at a time as you can, whatever works the best for you.

You should also give your roses several waterings with the compost, manure or rose tea recipes listed in the Organic Rose thread of this forum. They will do wonders for your roses.

Before adding these soil amendments though, I would suggest raking off your bark mulch. Your reason for doing this was correct, mulching to keep in moisture is a very good idea. You just need to choose a better mulching material, like well rottted manure, mulched leaves, etc.
Your watering system sounds appropriate, roses like a regular deep watering, but don't like to stand in water.

I am sure that you have leaf cutter bees, because of the clean edged, half circle cuts out of some of your leaves. This is a good thing. Leaf cutter bees get rid of other pests for you. If you spray with Neem oil, try not to do it when the bees are around, as you don't want to damage them.
When your buds are bent over like they are in the photos, what happens after that? Do they still bloom? Do they wither and die?

On your forth photo, I notices a bit of powdery mildew. This is the white powdery mildew on the leaves. You should remove any plant material carrying this and destroy it (don't put it in your compost). You can include is in your spray with Neem oil.

When you spray with Neem oil, you should only need to do it once, and then maybe again in a couple of weeks.
But again, I believe most of your problem is nutrition, not pests.
Get that soil built up and give the bushes a few drinks of tea, and you'll be surprised in the change.

I hope I have answered all of the questions you asked, but if not, feel free to keep asking, no need to feel silly - that's what it's all about!
On the whole, you have some pretty good bushes, they just need a little tweeking to get their best performance.
Best of Luck and let me know how it is going, and again, feel free to ask questions!! :wink:

VAL
VAL (Grandpa's Rose)

almaler
Full Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:01 pm
Location: Austin, Texas

Rose Tea preparation and more

Hello!!

Today, I went out and bought some of the stuff I need.

I bought 2 bottles of this neem oil (at $16.00 a piece I sprayed ~ $32 all over my roses today, but I don't mind) :?

[url]https://www.v-p-g.com/Labels/FertiLome/Liquid_Insecticides/FL%20Triple%20Action%20Plus%20Label.pdf#search='fertilome%20triple%20action'[/url]

I also bought this insecticidal soap, but I haven't used that yet since I just sprayed the neem oil.

[url]https://www.greentreediscounts.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=51[/url]

AND....Rose tea. Just how AWFUL is this stuff going to smell? It is in my garage - should I leave it outside instead?

I used this exact recipe to make my rose tea:
In a full size garbage bin (20 gallons) add 16 cups of alfalfa pellets
Add 2 cups of Epsom salts
Add 1 cup fish emulsion. (this is some stinky stuff)
Fill with water, put on a tight lid.

Now I just need to wait a week or two I guess. I am going to rake out the bark mulch some time this week and I will need my husband's help getting the compost and shoveling it all in. Hopefully, I will have this done next weekend.

The soil that we put in before planting the roses, I believe, was a mixture of chocolate loam and something kind of like dillo dirt, but more acidic. It was this dirt and rock place and they mix their dirts for different things. Their website is down, so I can't get exact details but I think I am remembering it correctly. [url]https://www.989rock.com[/url]

The buds that are bent over sometimes open up. The bush that exibits the most problems with the buds opening up really small or almost dead is my lavender bush. I haven't gotten any good sized buds and flowers on this bush.

Here are all of the different rose bushes that I have planted. If you are looking at the pictures it is from right to left. The first three I purchased at Home Depot and the rest I purchased from a nursery.

John F. Kennedy Hybrid Tea Rose
Tiffany Hybrid Tea Rose
Christian Dior Hybrid Tea Rose
Sun Blest Hybrid Tea Rose
Arizona Grandiflora Rose
Blue Moon Hybrid Tea Rose
Oklahoma Hybrid Tea Rose
Shreveport Grandiflora Rose
Queen Elizabeth Grandiflora Rose
John F. Kennedy Hybrid Tea Rose
Mr. Lincoln Hybrid Tea Rose

grandpasrose
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Posts: 1651
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:21 pm
Location: Quesnel, BC, Canada - Zone 4a

Well you just jumped right to it! You must really love your roses as everybody should! :lol:
Is this the first time you have grown roses?
You have chosen some very good strong ones, some of these roses have been around for a long time.
Great that you sprayed your Neem Oil. I know it is expensive, but it is worth it, and much better for the environment than all those chemicals. Just be sure to use it as per the instructions. You shouldn't need to spray again unless a major problem shows up.
Insecticidal soap is also good, but I wouldn't spray it on unless you see something needing it.

You should probably find a spot outside for your rose tea, as it does get a little smelly. Remember to stir it every once in a while, and dilute it when you are putting it on your plants.

Wonderful that you're taking away the bark mulch - you could use it somewhere else, like around evergreen shrubs, or something where the robbing of nitrogen will not be as crucial. Adding compost is going to make your roses smile. Try getting in some mulched leaves, well rotted manure, if you can. Anything you can do will hep.

I tried to get on the site for your soil company too, but it says it is down for repairs. It would be interesting to get an actual breakdown of what nutrients are in their soil.
Roses are very heavy feeders, and will deplete any nutrition very quickly if it is not replenished. The need the big three - Nitrogen, Phosphorous and Potassium, but they also require a whole number of micronutrients and minerals, that many fertilizers do not have. I think that is what you are seeing here, the trace minerals and micronutrients are missing. If you follow the plan - they'll be there workin' hard!

I'm still studying the problem with your buds - don't fret. I think it is probably what I told you, capsid bugs or lack of calcium, but I want to be sure for you. For the calcium, you could add some bone meal to the soil.

I hope you are feeling a bit better about your roses now - they really are okay, and will be right on top soon.
Don't work too hard this weekend.
If you find out what's in that soil, I'm very curious!
Feel free to ask questions, and let me know how it's going! :wink:
VAL
VAL (Grandpa's Rose)

The Helpful Gardener
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Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 2:17 am
Location: Colchester, CT

Val, a LITTLE smelly? :o

Almaler, that brew is going to get powerful smelly, but that smell is just nature's way of helping you spot good fertilizer (show me a bad smell :shock: and I'll show you some good fertilizer...) :lol:

Scott

grandpasrose
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Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:21 pm
Location: Quesnel, BC, Canada - Zone 4a

Well Scott, what can I say? Everything worth having costs us somehow in the end right? So what's a little smell?
Really, though, you're right it is quite smelly, but it doesn't last long once you have put is on your roses. Honest!! :wink:
VAL
VAL (Grandpa's Rose)

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Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 2:17 am
Location: Colchester, CT

True enough, mon ami.

Really Almaler, Val's right and I'm pulling legs more than anything.
Look at the luck JPIXI has been having since she dove into the alfalfa tea thing; she has brought a neglected rose garden back from the brink in just a few weeks. Even commercial growers are starting to look at compost teas as a viable growing strategy; Ball Seed, one of the biggest and oldest in the States is starting a Circle of Life brand that is ONLY fertilized with natural organic teas and composts and the pictures are worth a thousand words. They are bigger, healthier, happier plants and more importantly, that difference grows when they are planted. These plants are ready for soil culture already (ever notice when you bring a plant home from the nursery and plant it it stalls unless you hit it with more fertilizer?).

So ignore my blather just this once and try the tea thing. Your plants will thank you as will the birds bees and thousands of other organisms you won't be killing...

Scott

grandpasrose
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Location: Quesnel, BC, Canada - Zone 4a

Thanks Scott!

I hadn't heard about the Circle of Life product coming out. Where is it from? I wish we had something up here that would carry plants like that. :cry: Oh well.... one day......dream...... :wink:
VAL
VAL (Grandpa's Rose)

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Not suprised you hadn't heard; this is a pilot program that started in the Northwest and is just getting into the Midwest.

almaler
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Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:01 pm
Location: Austin, Texas

UPDATE

Hello everyone,
Well yesterday I raked out and bagged all of the bark mulch so it is no longer in my rose bed. Also, I opened my Rose Tea - WOW - stinky!!!
I stirred it for about 5 minutes and let it sit there opened for about 30 minutes and then I poured it on each of my roses and my Rose of Sharon and my Hydrangea tree and my Crepe Myrtle tree :) After I was all done, I had used between 2/3rds and 3/4ths so I just filled it back up with water and put the lid back on. SO, now I just need to get some manure, etc to put in the rose bed.

almaler
Full Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:01 pm
Location: Austin, Texas

Here are some updated pictures.

Here are some updated pictures. You can still see the neem oil on the bushes even though its been a week since I sprayed it. All comments appreciated! I have a video that I will post later.
[img]https://tinypic.com/f4189x.jpg[/img]
[img]https://tinypic.com/f418g8.jpg[/img]
[img]https://tinypic.com/f418ip.jpg[/img]
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[img]https://tinypic.com/f41bih.jpg[/img]
[img]https://tinypic.com/f41bpv.jpg[/img]
And here is the Rose of Sharon
[img]https://tinypic.com/f41bwm.jpg[/img]

JPIXI
Senior Member
Posts: 213
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:54 am
Location: France, Paris

Hi Almeler,

I suggest tht you try to use compost tea spray with Epsom salt to enhence the plant health perioically next spring. Compost tea enhence the resistancy of roses. There are plenty of organic goodies posts under organic care under ROSES.


Cheers,
Pixi

grandpasrose
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Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:21 pm
Location: Quesnel, BC, Canada - Zone 4a

Hi Almaler! Pixi is right on! There a couple of organic spray recipes that are listed under the organic rose care thread, that Pixi uses on a very strict regime, and she has brought an ancient, overgrown, abandoned rosed garden back to glowing health!
Also, you have some blackspot going on, that wasn't evident last time you sent pictures. This is a fungus. You need to remove all the leaves that are affected by it (looks worst in your first photo) and destroy them. Do not put them in your compost, as the fungus will spread to where ever you put that compost. Burning them is preferrable.
Then spray with one of Pixi's sprays, or another is 4tsps baking soda, 1tbsp citrus oil, 1 gallon water. Spray lightly on foliage, but not on soil.
Another organic method is milk spray, which is one part low fat milk, with nine parts water, and spray on plants every few days.
You need to be vigilant with these preventative measures, as well as continuing to build up the quality of your soil. Add compost and mulched leaves if you have them and of course keep using your tea for watering! Your roses will not be healthy enough to be strong enough to withstand these diseases unless they get the proper nutrition.
Keep working at it and you'll get there!
Let me know how it's going, I bet the next time I hear from you, we will be seeing progress!!! :wink:
Val
VAL (Grandpa's Rose)

The Helpful Gardener
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Posts: 7493
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 2:17 am
Location: Colchester, CT

One suggestion I would make is that the only feeder I know that's as hungry as Rose of Sharon is grass, so you have one in competition with the other. Clear a two foot circle from around that trunk so it's not competeing for food and you will start to see some results there as well...

HG

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