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Grey
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Re: Killing Hemerocallis

ahughes798 wrote:I don't like using chemicals, but Round-up breaks down harmlessly in the soil in within 5 days, and is non-toxic to pets and people in less than 24 hours. It is basically not toxic to anything but plants. Of all the herbicides out there...it takes the least environmental toll.
I don't wish to offend, but you hit my soapbox and so I'm going to stand up on it. RoundUp/glyphosphate does NOT harmlessly degrade in the soil in 5 days and is very, very toxic to pets, people and children. Only Monsanto (its manufacturer) and the EPA testing FUNDED BY Monsanto says differently (BTW, the EPA and Monsanto have a revolving door between who works with which). It is highly discouraged in Europe and is linked to many, many cancers, including reproductive and pulmonary problems. Please, please read this thread:

https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1749

*gets off soapbox*

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Jess
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This soap box is getting well used by the two of us Grey. :lol: and I was standing up there with you on this subject.
Knowing without doing is like plowing without sowing."

TheLorax
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Hemerocallis fulva is formally identified as being an invasive species-
https://www.invasive.org/browse/subject.cfm?sub=3407

This species is a problem child on the continent of North America. Scroll down to a map to see all the areas in which it is documented as having naturalized-
https://plants.usda.gov/java/nameSearch?mode=sciname&keywordquery=Hemerocallis+fulva

RoundUp would kill them but... the surfactant used in RU is not appropriate to use anywhere near water (or life forms in general) and I won't even use it anywhere on my property any longer for reasons mentioned by Grey. Yes, I do have some left over but will try my best to use it in stamp licker bottles which will better enable me to have greater control over the chemical to go after any remaining English Ivy, Periwinkle, or other invasive species that pop up over the next year. RU makes me extremely uncomfortable. If one must use a product that utilizes glyphosate as the active ingredient, please consider Rodeo of Aquamaster. I'm also not a proponent of spraying any chemicals because of drift issues. The leaves of H. fulva can easily be painted with a chemical using a 1" foam paint trim brush. Using a concentrate on H. fulva is probably going to backfire. It can work too fast. Kills off the above ground vegetation before the chemicals fully work their way down into all of the roots. Here's one of the reasons why concentrates will probably backfire, excerpt from here-
https://sain.utk.edu/invasives/species32.shtml
individuals of H. fulva are well adapted to secure the best soil position for survival by having two mechanisms to regulate soil depth: the pulling effect of contractile roots, and, as an emergency response, the opposite effect of upward growth of the facultative shoot elongation.
These ditch lilies will be able to be killed off without chemicals. The methods described by Candida and wingdesigner will work. They won't work overnight or even over the course of a month but they will work over time. I've known gardeners to kill these off by blanketing them with old carpets. Smothering and solarizing them will nuke them nicely but it takes a few months. I used sheets of plywood to kill them off up north of all things. Had checked the dump to see if there was any pitched carpets and had come up empty handed but did find some incredibly warped plywood and grabbed it. It worked. Left it in place from spring to fall then figured I might as well just leave it in place till the next gardening season so I did. Ditch lilies were very dead.

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I disagree completely. All the fact sheets I have read say that it has the least environmental impact(toxicity) of any of the herbicides.

I didn't say <b>NO</b> environmental impact....I said the least, which is why I still hesitate to use the stuff.

Yes, there are a bunch of bullet points in that thread, but do you have the links to the scientific studies to back them up? I'd like to read them, for my own information.

You don't use Round-Up near water. Round up kills frogs and fishes. You use Rodeo for water/marsh/swamp/fen/bog applications.

Like I said, I don't like using chemicals, and I don't. They should be used very sparingly, or not at all....and that also includes Chemlawn, Miracle Grow, Osmocote, Scots Weed and Feed, Preen, Capstan(which you could buy at the hardware store and basically has the power to re-arrange your DNA) and all the other junk that people dump on their lawns and in their flowerbeds every year, and don't think anything about it, yet are HORRIFIED if you mention "using chemicals." If you're using any of the above...you're part of the problem.

So, tell me, how in the heck are you going to smother invasive exotics on an in progress prairie restoration, 500 acre weed field under 6-8" of newspapers/mulch? Or clear plastic? Can you procure enough mulch to cover 500 acres 8 inches deep? Can YOU get enough voluteers to pull weeds all season for a decade or two until the seed bank is depleted, if you <b>aren't</b> going to use glyphosate? Knowing full well that when you pull the weed seedlings, you are further disturbing the soil, enabling even more weed seedlings to sprout? Can you get them to volunteer to uproot Phragmites grass in wet areas? Or Narrow leaf cat-tail? Keeping in mind that you have to get every bit of teeny tiny little bit of root in these plants, or they will re-sprout. It's unpleasant work, and people will get dirty doing it. People don't want to get dirty, by and large.

I'm sorry...but usually the State Dept. Of Natural Resources budgets are the first ones cut. Which means less people doing restoration work, unless you can find volunteers, which isn't easy, this is tough work for no money. And I'm not so sure that digging stuff up is the answer...sometimes it out and out has to be killed, by Round Up or Rodeo, vis a vis invasive exotic species in natural areas.

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Round up shouldn't be used in any situation, the active ingredient is very long lasting in any environment and kills microflora and fauna in the soil for years after it has been applied. For this reason, you shouldn't use anything with the suffix cide.

And yes, the jury is not out on the amphibean crisis north america is in but, because of it, nothing with the suffix cide should be used. Some scientific literature has stated that posions are a part of the problem but, many other factors are as well.

And if you search in journals like nature, conservation biology and so on you can find all sorts of articles on the effects of toxic agents on both human health, soil health, crop health and animal health. Actually if you have access to the web of science that would lead you to a better search.

Another problem gripping North America is the native been population in and for this reason the use of poisons should also be curtailed. I think the real problem is the fact that home gardeners use them so profusely when they are not needed. Not to mention this industrial based agriculture that we use these days and the overuse of synthetic poisons and fertilzers that is killing soil health in the world.

If you have a serious problem and nothing else works then fine use a poison as a solution but otherwise, try to work with nature by understanding the fundamentals of soil and plant/animal biology and ecology to have a working garden that is virtually free of disease and is healthy for you, your neighbours, your pets and so on so forth.

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imagardener2
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opabinia51 wrote:Round up shouldn't be used in any situation, the active ingredient is very long lasting in any environment and kills microflora and fauna in the soil for years after it has been applied. For this reason, you shouldn't use anything with the suffix cide.
[img]https://geocities.com/d_m_g_s/emoticons/Blush2.gif[/img]Um, you don't want to come to my house......

Down here where certain plants can get absolutely out of hand Round Up helps keep things sane.

And I was an founding member of TOGA (Texas Organic Growers Assoc.).
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TheLorax
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I disagree to an extent. Like antibiotics, glyphosate is frequently misused, overused, and abused. But also like antibiotics, glyphosate can improve our lot in life but only through restraint and prudent use. I believe there do exist situations in which a product containing glyphosate should be used. I would prefer it be Rodeo or Aquamaster after all other more environmentally friendly options have been exhausted. Volunteers simply aren't jumping out of the woodwork standing in line to commit to volunteering endless hours under land stewards to mechanically control invasive species in natural areas and one thing is for sure, delaying control of invasive species because of a lack of manpower has major consequences. "Like an out-of-control wildfire, the cost of fighting invasive species increases each year. Among those who work with invasive species, the consensus is that for every year control is delayed, the costs of control increase two- to three-fold."

https://www.weedcenter.org/inv_plant_info/impacts.html

Comparing a natural resource manager or conservationist with formal education and/or experience as pertains to our natural world to the average homeowner is akin to comparing apples to oranges. We mustn't fault the natural resource manager for not being a good homeowner and conversely we mustn't fault the land owner for not being a good resource manager but... we can all learn from one another. Education is paramount.

If you find a natural resource manager grabbing their "fireant-be-gone" without assessing the environmental impacts and weighing the pros and cons, it's time for that individual to find a new job. The goal of the NRM and conservationist is to protect the environment through sound decision making. Sometimes, the best that can be hoped for is that we come out ahead when the score is tallied.
There's no greater proof that monocultures are "bad" than the fact that the natural world which supports all life forms selects diversity over monocultures. Organic farming successfully avoids the use of pesticides by not planting crops in monocultures - no doubt an idea copied from nature. We use herbicides in our natural areas to maintain or restore those systems back to their previously un-infested state, so that we won't have to apply billions of gallons of pesticides every year. Healthy functioning ecosystems are the best "pesticide" there is.
Hundreds and thousands of years of evolution could and will create new systems from our currently invaded ones if left unmanaged, however, there are very real threats to the environment and humans happening right now and in the meantime. For instance, fire is a huge problem out west and in many parts of the world because invasives have altered fire regimes or in some cases have added fire when there was none previously. These invasive plants have altered fuel type and load, burn frequency and intensity among many other factors. Not only does that change in fire regime have serious consequences to those ecosystems and our planet overall, but to the health and economy of those communities and states that live in and depend on those functioning systems and all the resources they provide: food, clean water and air, erosion control, flood prevention and on and on.
It's easy to say chemicals are bad but we must think of what happens when entire ecosystems are left to invasion. Who will don a shovel and help me hand dig 40,000 acres of Knapweed? Please know NRMs and conservationists don't enjoy exposing themselves to chemicals or dealing with public outcries. Chemicals are hopefully the last resort after everything else has failed.

I believe with all my heart that we are not really disagreeing with each other as much as what would appear to the casual reader. I doubt anyone here is not sincerely concerned about changes taking place that have modified habitats of native flora and fauna that will negatively impact human health. I know I won't be around to see if anything I am doing will have made a difference 100 years from now but my epitaph will be able to read that I tried.

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I try to be as non-toxic as possible during my time here on earth. I even make my own laundry detergent.

Here is some scattered research pointing to the toxicity of Roundup:

https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/members/2005/7728/7728.html

https://www.unplugsalem.org/study%20glyphosate.htm

https://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/33/9950

https://mac10.umc.pitt.edu/m/FMPro?-db=ma&-lay=a&-format=d.html&id=2115&-Find

https://www.twnside.org.sg/title2/service185.htm

https://www.organicconsumers.org/monsanto/roundup.cfm

https://www.organicconsumers.org/Monsanto/roundup92502.cfm

https://www.counterpunch.org/bigwood08232003.html

https://www.organicconsumers.org/foodsafety/glyphosate051503.cfm



And I took some information from the post here on THG, but added to it here:
https://unofficiallyoptimistic.com/?p=24

Excerpt from an article:
April 5, 2005

Source: Ecological Applications (journal)

Roundup(r) Highly Lethal to Amphibians in Natural Setting, Finds University of Pittsburgh Researcher

Pitt assistant professor of biology Rick Relyea found that Roundup(r), the second most commonly applied herbicide in the United States, is "extremely lethal" to amphibians. This field experiment is one of the most extensive studies on the effects of pesticides on nontarget organisms in a natural setting, and the results may provide a key link to global amphibian declines.

In a paper titled "The Impact of Insecticides and Herbicides on the Biodiversity and Productivity of Aquatic Communities," published in the journal Ecological Applications, Relyea examined how a pond's entire community-25 species, including crustaceans, insects, snails, and tadpoles-responded to the addition of the manufacturers' recommended doses of two insecticides-Sevin(r) (carbaryl) and malathion-and two herbicides-Roundup(r) (glyphosate) and 2,4-D.

Relyea found that Roundup(r) caused a 70 percent decline in amphibian biodiversity and an 86 percent decline in the total mass of tadpoles.



Another excerpt I found interesting:

From Terra Daily.com

The US agrochemical giant Monsanto was fined 15,000 euros (19,000 dollars) in a French court Friday for misleading the public about the environmental impact of its flagship herbicide Roundup.

A former chairman of Monsanto Agriculture France was found guilty of false advertising for presenting Roundup as biodegradable and claiming that it left the soil clean after use. Monsanto's French distributor Scotts France was also fined 15,000 euros.

Environmental and consumer rights campaigners brought the case in 2001 on the basis that glyphosate, Roundup's main ingredient, is classed as "dangerous for the environment" and "toxic for aquatic organisms" by the European Union.

Both defendants were ordered to pay damages of 5,000 euros to the Brittany Water and Rivers association and 3,000 euros to the CLCV consumers group.


I can find more. Much more. How much do you need? I have files and files of information and research at my office that I'll be happy to share. Much of what I have at my office details what Migrant Workers health effects have been from inhaling this crap every day. It's really sad.

TheLorax
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I read everything at all of your links Grey. Some nice links. I particularly liked this one-
https://www.counterpunch.org/bigwood08232003.html
Unfortunately, we’re going to be learning a lot more about fusarium in the years to come and based on what little familiarity I have with fusariums, it’s much scarier stuff than RoundUp.

Test results originally presented to the EPA on RoundUp involved glyphosate alone. Pretty scummy in my humble opinion and I have no doubt this was by design.

Formulations of Roundup contain the surfactant POEA (polyoxyethylene-alkylamine aka polyethoxylated tallowamine). To the best of my knowledge, that would be our real foe and it’s a cheap surfactant and millions of consumers out there want a cheap product… Monsanto is capitalizing on our collective ignorance.

Glyphosate poses no unreasonable risks to human health and the environment when used according to label directions. It's toxicity to wildlife is allegedly low comparatively speaking. Considerably more research is needed before I personally will buy those previous statements but definitely not so for POEA.

This is what we need to fear, "With the removal of patent protection for glyphosate, many new glyphosate products will enter the market, each with its own surfactant mixture. Surfactants have been shown to vary in estrogenicity (Routledge and Sumpter, 1996) and toxicity (Mann and Bidwell, 1999), depending on their chemical classification (anionic, nonionic, cationic, etc.). The chronic effects of each glyphosate-based herbicide could be drastically different depending on the surfactant used as well as species exposed."

We should start a thread somewhere identifying all products being sold that contain glyphosate utilizing POEA. It’s not just RoundUp that we North Americans are getting our hands on from home improvement, hardware, big box, and garden centers; it's all the knock-off products now flooding the market.

In my dreams, RoundUp (and all other comparable formulations being unleashed on the unsuspecting public) would be removed from every shelf across the continent of North America and would never be approved for use in wheat fields by the agricultural industry.

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I agree with you, Lorax.

Unfortunately, what is used on crops is even stronger than what Joe Homeowner can purchase. Monsanto has created GE crops (corn, soy, wheat and cotton, incidentally the same crops that are given government subsidies) that are resistant to their commercial roundup product - and some of the information regarding the genetic engineering tells me the way they do it is sloppy and can cause proteins to mutate. Further when fed to cattle (or, I suppose, people) I read that the cotton at least (not known on the other varieties yet) have unstable proans (form of protein) and if fed to cattle (which it is, along with corn and cow parts) could potentially create a new form of Mad Cow. :shock:

But Monsanto does not want you to know that.

I think you are right, we should start a post that has all the products with "bad" stuff in it.

By the way, does anyone remember the poster we had here (18 mos to a year ago) who had sprayed Roundup on his lawn to kill weeds, and then found all the worms were coming out of his soil to die afterwards? When he called Monsanto about it, he was told to report himself to the EPA and to inform his neighbors about what he had done as well for runoff concerns in case they wanted to file a report against him.

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Yaa, I tried to do it but couldn't post in the sticky thread on RoundUp because it got locked. There are going to be a lot of Joe Homeowners out there spraying away with wild abandon attempting to achieve that "quick fix' that is cheap and I can assure you their collective behavior is going to take an even greater toll on the environment than it already has. Multiply the cumulative effects of millions of Joe Homeowners using RoundUp and RoundUp knock-offs being marketed as silver bullets at even regular strength and quite frankly, I fear the public more than the agricultural industry.

There's a lot that Monsanto doesn't want us to know. GMO's are in the forefront right now which is another reason why I joined this forum. I really need to get up to speed on organic vegetable gardening. My veggie skills are waaaaaaaay down there with my landscaping skills.

Please laugh with me but not at me for what I am about to say- I did a workshop once and in the best official sounding cop voice I could muster, I told everyone in my class to "Put down the RoundUp, step away from your turf and roses, and put your hands in the air". It got a good deep belly laugh out of everyone as by that time they were beginning to make connections for themselves which would better enable them to make informed and responsible choices in the future.

Talk of Mad Cow disease leads down the path to a discussion of prions. Proteinaceous infectious particles don't need genetic material to replicate. We'd be chatting about prions and even Formaldehyde can't kill them. Deer are the natural hosts. It isn’t a given that the species barrier will protect us from animal prion diseases. “Conversion of human prion protein by CWD-associated prions has been demonstrated in an in vitro cell-free experiment.â€

opabinia51
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You can also look up the MSDS on Azadirachtin the active ingredient in Round Up.

I think it's really sad actually that when you walk into a nursery that there is alwasy a wall of herbicides, insecticides, fungicides and pesticides that gardeners are first exposed to. We grow up thinking these things are good. And we use them thinking that using them is fine and dandy and doesn't do any harm.

And we also use genetically modified plants to provide us with food that will not grow unless they are grown with all these poisons, further harming our environment and ourselves. They sell soaps now to wash off the poisons on our food. So now, instead of ingesting poisons we're ingesting soap residues.

Anyway off my little soap box. Turn to the scientific literature, and just use common sense; poisons kill biota and artificially select for resistant strains of disease organisms.

A healthy, disease resistant garden uses nature as an ally and the little bit of work that goes into a garden rewards the gardener with good health from that work. And the tasty vegetables that come from a food garden reward the gardener with lovely, tasty delights.

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Grey
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When I worked for a garden center I tried hard to steer people away from buying all the 'cides. I was the "organic person" even though i know my knowledge is really terribly basic. But I tried.

It's arguably "easier" to use the cides and fertilizers. But if you aren't careful, each can cause you some woes too. The worst that happens organically is you keep yanking weeds (pull early, pull often) and something may be undernourished if you are low on a nutrient. I haven't had much trouble with bugs. I kill the japanese beetles in the morning when their time to be around arrives, and other than that, I really try to mix up my planting so it isn't a nice yummy block if Plant A then Plant B.

Opa's advice to just do what nature does makes worlds of sense to me.

For the ditch lilies... I'd just cover them up with some thick weedblocker, throw a ton of mulch over that so they can't see the light of day, and leave them for a few years.

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I am familiar with Azadirachtin. Azadirachtin is not and to the best of my knowledge never has been an active ingredient in RoundUp but it is the active ingredient in Safer Brand Bioneem Multi-Purpose Concentrate Insecticide & Repellent, Azatin XL, and Neemazal. In the US, it’s classified as relatively non-toxic. Wouldn’t you just love these people to provide their working definition of “relatively non-toxicâ€

ahughes798
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I 48, and have been a gardener since I was 8. My dad used all manner of chemicals on his garden, inorganic ones, I mean.

I have been working as a restoration volunteer for the biggest part of 30 years.

I decided last year to finally go to school and get a degree in hort/natural areas management so I'd be taken seriously by prospective employers.

My front yard is about 90% native plants. My back yard is 100% native, except for the grass, and whatever weeds blow into my little fake prairie re-creation.

It's 500 square feet. It was hardpacked, so in the beginning, I had to roto-till the soil, which exposed the weed seed lingering in the soil to light, so I had even more weeds.

I used round up 3 times on it, at half strength, to try and deplete the weed seed bank a little. That's the only time I have ever used chemicals on my property, and I haven't had to, since. Though I might use the glove of death method on canada goldenrod this year, it's a very aggressive native. No danger of overspray, or over use, with glove of death, or paintbrush of death.

A lot of the Round-up articles seem to focus on it's effects on amphibians. Well, DUH. It says right on the label not to use it on windy days, or spray it on or near water.

Even organic fertilisers and pesticides are chemicals. They just use naturally occuring ones. I use BT in my pond. It's still a chemical. Neem is a pesticide. It's a chemical.

I worked at a garden center last year, and people would come in asking for inorganic pesticides when a problem hadn't even shown up yet. They wanted to spray as a preventative. That's just wrong, IMO. And then there's the weed and feed and Trugreen/Chemlawn people......

Hoping to do a burn on Sunday!

opabinia51
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Actually, we can mimic nature as best we can and trying to work with nature provides the soil with with health and vitality and using permaculture techniques we can work with nature as apposed to against.

My apologies it's glyphosate that I meant to say.

https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1749


https://msds.chem.ox.ac.uk/PH/N-(phosphonomethyl)glycine.html

I don't use any poisons in my gardens and use nature as my ally as apposed to my foe. People are welcome to do what they wish, but if you review scientific literature on the effects of poisons on our own health, soil health and plant health, I have found that organic is the way to go.

And my garden has never looked so good since I started gardening organically.

Poisons should be a last resort use element not a first resource use. In north america at this time, humans are bioaccumlating toxins in there systems, the jury is still out as to the conclusive effects of this but, it is much better to be safe than sorry.

Not to mention the untold numbers of microbiota that we are killing with the use of poisons in our gardens, and the native bee and frog populations that are being decimated from the use of poisons and other problems.

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Jess
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Grey this is the earthworms thread.
www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5429
Knowing without doing is like plowing without sowing."

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Grey
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Thanks Jess. That cleans up my recollection of the events.

ahughes798
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No one knows for sure what is causing colony collapse disorder in bees. It's apparently a very complex issue, though strides have been made of late vis a vis the cause of CCD. I'll believe whatever Nature magazine's conclusions are. I'v no doubt that pesticides, organic and inorganic, play a role.

It had been speculated at one time that one of the causes of CCD is cel phones. Are people going to get rid of their cels to save bees?

It has also been posited that monarch larvae are killed by "organic" farmers who use BT on their fields. What's that about organic having little impact? Does anyone realise that when one uses the organically correct milky spore on their lawn, they're also killing firefly larvae? And a host of other grubs that feed on grass roots...that other animals, like skunks, use for food?

Skunks are becoming rare in my area. Is that okay?

Frogs and amphibians are being killed by pesticides(organic and inorganic)<b>for sure.</b>They are also being killed, doubletime, by a virus imported from Asia.

Oak trees are being killed by a virus called Sudden Oak Death imported from China in hydrangeas for the nursery industry, and the pine bark beetle is also an imported pest, not to mention Dutch Elm Disease, Emerald Ash Borer, Chinese Long-Horned Beetle, the western US is being swallowed by cheat grass, and leave us not forget Buckthorn, which not only crowds out native forbs, grasses and trees, it changes the composition of the very soil it grows in so nothing else will grow there, etc.

My point is.... that in the US, I'd be willing to bet exotic diseases, plants, bugs and animals do a heck of a lot more environmental damage than Joe Blow using Round-up once a year on his crab grass.
Last edited by ahughes798 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 1:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Grey
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I hear you, ahughes. I just try to do my part, and however small I feel my part is, I just try to be sooo careful about everything I buy and use.

It's a cumulative effect. Consumerism is at its core, probably the worst threat to the environment. Planned obsolecence of everything from computers to your cell phones (ever wonder why the stupid things break every year?), to women's shoe styles (shouldn't be caught dead with pointy-toe shoes now, it's all the peekaboo toe these days! Think of all the shoes you have bought that busted without a whole lot of wear and tear.

It all adds up, all these little things. :(

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imagardener2
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ahughes798 wrote:It had been speculated at one time that one of the causes of CCD is cel phones. Are people going to get rid of their cels to save bees?
Do you know that that was really a study by the Germans about cordless phones and never meant to be about cell phones? The tests were conducted by sticking the base unit of a cordless phone set in the bees' hive! Small wonder the bees wouldn't go back to home. [img]https://geocities.com/d_m_g_s/emoticons/spineyes.gif[/img]

The most recent hypothesis of CCD is that they are under too much stress which allows them to fall prey to things they once could fight off. -cides are some of the things sighted as stressors.
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HGTV Article

HGTV has a great article on their website right now entitled:

[url=https://www.hgtv.com/hgtv/gl_gardening_basics/article/0,1785,HGTV_3589_5833802,00.html]Create a Buzz in Your Garden:
Bring in the Bees[/url]
"Our elders instruct us to always walk upon Mother Earth with respect, gentleness, and with thankful hearts. We must never deviate from the fundamental precept of stewardship, or we will be capable of causing great harm."

ahughes798
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because all these little things are connected.

Thanks, Grey.

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I knew it! I knew we were all on the same page!

You know what I'd like to see? I'd like to see a forum just for invasive species.

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Grey
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Lorax is going to keep adding pages to this forum. :lol:

Maybe we could have a section that's just entitled "bad things" with threads on invasive (plant) species, Invasive (insect) species, toxic chemicals, etc.

TheLorax
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I don't know about the word "bad". Look to our own bull frog and what it's done over seas and out west of the Rockies while it's perfectly "good" east of the Rockies. And then there's the Cane Toad. It's existence isn't an issue in its native range where it is "good" but here on the continent of North America its highly invasive. Plants are about the same deal; think Kudzu, Salt Cedar, Cheat Grass, Water Hyacinth, barberries, etc. Any species out of place has the potential to be "bad" but only a small percentage are actually invasive. Maybe just Invasives which could cover the issues associated with control, management, and eradication of those species that pose the actual documented threats to public health. I truly don't think any one much cares how many non-native hostas a person plants in their yard although they certainly wouldn't be appropriate in a natural area on our continent.

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NEWisc
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I also agree that an "Invasive Species" forum would be very helpful. This website has a consistent philosophy of encouraging ecologically friendly activities and practices. Organic gardening, using native plants, being friendly to wildlife, minimizing pesticide use, etc., are all components of this theme. It's this philosophy that sets this gardening forum above all the other gardening forums that I have visited.

An Invasive species forum would be another component that would contribute to being a responsible gardener. Invasive species have, and will continue to, cause a lot of damage to our ecosystems. Many of the invasive plants start out in the gardens of people that are unaware of the consequences of growing these plants.

Invasive species are a universal problem; I believe it would be useful to all of the international membership that use this website.
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ahughes798
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I agree, for instance, switch grass is becoming a problem in Europe.

Some things just don't belong where we put them, no matter how much we want them. Ya can't and shouldn't, always get what you want.

TheLorax
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Backing up a little bit to these comments, "I 48, and have been a gardener since I was 8. My dad used all manner of chemicals on his garden, inorganic ones, I mean.

I have been working as a restoration volunteer for the biggest part of 30 years.

I decided last year to finally go to school and get a degree in hort/natural areas management so I'd be taken seriously by prospective employers."

For what it's worth, I've got some sheepskins- big deal. I'm sure there are others here who do too. In my humble opinion there is no substitution for getting out there and doing. It's the hands on opportunities you've been actively taking advantage of that speak volume to me. The 30 years of experience you've got working in natural areas will take you far. A sheepskin can be limiting if one doesn't continue to grow after acquiring same. Closes some eyes to the workings of the natural world and produces some very narrow minded people based on my personal experiences.

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imagardener2
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TheLorax wrote:In my humble opinion there is no substitution for getting out there and doing. It's the hands on opportunities you've been actively taking advantage of that speak volume to me. The 30 years of experience you've got working in natural areas will take you far.
When I finally started college I had been farming & ranching with my husband for quite a few years already. My sole purpose in going to college was to hone the skills I already had, thus my majors were Plant & Soil Science and Animal Science.

I was shocked that so many of my profs let me into their Jr & Sr level classes w/o any of the pre-reqs all the other students had to abide by. I was even more shocked when my Sheep Mngt prof called after finals and said I made an 88.5 in her class, but she was giving me an 'A'. When I told her she didn't have to do that she explained that I could have easily taught the class save for the more technical aspects of it. And if I went to school and did nothing else as a large part of the others did (my DH & I farmed 1300 acres together + had sheep & cattle +3 small children) I would have aced the class.

They all saw the value of practical experience. As I look back on it now almost 30 years later I see they were right. And what I would add to that - I know the stuff I was taught in those classes. I would venture to say the others had to re-learn it if they ever needed it for a job.

Reading your post I see you are obviously quite knowledgeable, "which exposed the weed seed lingering in the soil to light, so I had even more weeds", "deplete the weed seed bank a little". Sounds like you might be bored in more than a few classes...
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Jess
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:D So do you think the person who originally posed the question on ditch lillies is still reading?
I am. I do not think I have learned so much in any one thread on this site.

Invasive species....If ever I suggest a plant to someone in the US could you please feel free to mention it is a bad choice if you know something I do not. I know what is invasive here but I cannot speak for over there.

Now to organic gardening practices...I have never used Neem oil, nor have I used Roundup or any glyphosate based herbicide. My idea of 'organic' gardening is minimal interference with nature. I try to learn about every plant I grow before it goes in the ground. What soil it needs, what light requirements, what nutrients. Whether there is a good companion plant. What predators look like so that I can set them onto the pests. A healthy plant will need no treatments.
I also graft. I will spend as much time as it takes to remove an invasive, unwanted plant from my garden rather than throw chemicals at it. I am at an advantage I know. I only have a small plot, not acres and acres so I can understand that some will use more aggressive methods but I do feel that I am doing my bit just like Grey. I cannot justify the use of cides so I don't use them simple as that. :D
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TheLorax
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Invasive species....If ever I suggest a plant to someone in the US could you please feel free to mention it is a bad choice if you know something I do not. I know what is invasive here but I cannot speak for over there.
Well, since you insist... just kidding because I try my best to comment but sometimes I just can't no matter how hard I want to so I rap my own knuckles with a ruler and if the urge to comment persists I duct tape my fingers together then move onto the next thread.

I think the big difference is that smaller properties are considerably more manageable relying upon mechanical and "non-cide" practices. My property is slightly over 2 hectares. I can generally handle the vast majority of invasives and noxious weeds by myself without having to resort to using those "cides" that concern all of us. Sadly, the wilds are taking the biggest hits as more and more exotic plants escape cultivation and that is why some really tough decisions are being made in the best interests of public health. Again, "Sometimes, the best that can be hoped for is that we come out ahead when the score is tallied." The example of 40,000 acres of Knapweed was not an exaggeration. That knapweed is out there and it's reproducing at an unprecedented rate while everyone screws around trying to figure out what the heck to do about it based on best science while factoring in limited resources. That's 40,000 acres of infested land which to you would be around 16,200 hectares. Does that help put it in perspective? Scary, very scary. It's the little people like you and me who are going to make a difference providing we think globally while acting locally.

ahughes798
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Experience is great. I am quite giggly about the fact that I, the high school drop out, knows more about propagating and managing native plant communities than the PhD. who heads my department. My watercolour teacher knows more about native plants than PhD guy does. But PhD guys PhD. is in woody plants, wherein he absolutely and totally blows me out the door vis a vis their identification, care, and management. That's my shrub ID class.

In my Horticulture 101 class, I'm just now studying stuff like cells, parts of plants and their sub parts and how they work. It was an area very lacking in my knowledge of plants, though I always had a vague idea from high school biology classes.

Fun fact: Potatoes are not tubers. They are underground stems. The eyes are the nodes. The other stuff is the inter-nodes, LOL!

However, <b>there's a whole lot to be said for book learnin',</b> LOL!

I only use 1 "cide" and that is Round-UP, because I'm trying to do a wet mesic prairie restoration in my back yard. I use it minimally, and very specifically targeted to very specific individual plants...Canada Goldenrod. Even with our late spring...they are already starting to sprout.

Even though Canada Goldenrod is native...it is a very aggressive native plant, and since I have such a small space(500 sf), I cannot afford to let it run amok.

opabinia51
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Yes, I have goldenrod and to keep it at bay each fall when I prune it to the ground, I dig out some of the spreaded wood and the associated roots. It's a beautiful plant that attracts all sorts of beneficial insects but, you have to watch it as you need to watch mint or it will take over.

ahughes798
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The trouble I have found with cutting and re-cutting aggressive goldenrods is that it causes the root stock to send up even more suckers, thereby doubling or quintupling the work to keep it under control. It is really hard to prune your way out of trouble...I've seen 2" high Queen Anne's Lace blossom, after it had been cut and re-cut, LOL!.

Ohio goldenrod is a nice alternative...non-suckering. A valuable wildlife food. And very showy. I planted a bunch that I grew from seed last year. Hopefully, the will be able to push out the weedy stuff.

kaetra
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Daylilies early sprout photos

Does anyone have a picture of an early growth/sprout of a daylily? I want to dig the little suckers out before they start to get big.

I dug a bunch of something up and the rootballs were huge, like 1 square foot of intertwined solid bricks of root. Pretty sure they were the ditch lilies, but now I have similar sprouts coming up in an area that they weren't in last year so they must have spread.[/img]

ahughes798
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Kaetra,

Daylily sprouts are bright yellow/green, and in kind of a tubular arrangement. Iris sprouts have flat leaves, like a fan. I'll see if I can send a picture...send me a private e-mail. April

Madge45
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Re: Killing Hemerocallis

1. All chemicals should be used exactly as directed on the label. adding more chemical to a mix will not help the problem, but can cause lots more issues.

2. RoundUp is a great product for converting scrub or grassland for gardens.

3. Roundup is NOT safe after 24 hours, I spent a whole day trying to save my dog who walked into an area I sprayed at least 24 hours before, the vet said I was lucky I noticed the symptoms in time. (he survived)

4. I have 2 commercial spray licenses, so I know of what I speak.

The last time I fought the dreaded orange lily, I had a backhoe come and dig 2 feet down and 3 feet outside the area and haul them far away, I had a huge mass covering half of my front lawn. Now I fight the battle again as my new house has a yard full, ugh.

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Midwestguy
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Okay, this may sound crazy and may be more trouble than it's worth. But you could take your "lemons" and make "lemonaide". What I mean by that is that a lot of county fairs will be starting up soon. You could dig these plants up, put them into cheap plastic pots and sell them for $1.00 each at local your county fair. Of course you will want to advertise them as Day Lilly (Hemerocallis fulva). But you never know. Maybe you'll make enough money to reseed that part of your lawn. :D

Madge45
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Orange Lily

I have hated these awful plants since I was a kid, my mom used to make us pick them for my Irish Grandfather, he was not amsued.
To me they are a weed, and I believe they are on the list of noxious weeds in my province, to be irradicated on sight.

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