cajj
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Daylilies...how do I kill orange ditch lilies??

This may sound crazy, but I do want to get rid of a ton of daylilies. I have a 10x15 foot area in my yard that is overgrown with wild orange dayliles. I have tried everything I can think of to get rid of them including digging them up, poisoning them and mowing over them. No matter what, they come back. Of course digging them up was the most successful but there are literally hundreds of them. I even thought that tilling the area and then digging them up would be easier. Well, it wasn't. Please, please help!

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Jess
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Hi Cajj :)

Are you sure these are daylilies? I would have thought digging would get rid of those. It sounds like they may be Crocosmia. How large are the flowers and do they grow from corms?

cajj
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Hi Jess,

They do grow from corms. I am almost positive that they are not Crocosmia as they do not flower straight up on one stalk. From the digging that I have already done, about half of them are gone. I even paid my children (6 and 8 years old) and their friends to keep digging after I was too tired to look at them any more. The problem with digging is that there are SO, SO many of them.

Another problem with digging them up is that any piece that breaks off starts to grow a new plant - even in the closed, dark trash can.

Thanks for any help you can offer.

Cajj

countrycat
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I'm right there with you I have an area behind my small pond with these beasts. I've tried the weed spray, plastic ect. We're thinking of tilling it and then I found a product at walmart that kills everything for a year. Don't know if it will work or not. I'm really trying to get rid of them since that area holds snakes and when I'm working in the pond I prefer not to be scared. Let me know if you find anything that works!
Lena

cajj
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Hi CountryCat (I love the name!!)

This is what I have learned from so many kind people who have posted to this forum and a couple other forums where I have posed the same question...

First, do not till the area. Every piece that breaks off becomes a new plant. I did this before I knew better.

Second, the sprays that kill for a year and come PREMIXED will not kill the daylillies. However, if you buy the CONCENTRATED or even the SUPER CONCENTRATED (very $$$, about $100 per gallon, but it does make a lot) you can make it more concentrated and spray the area when the plants are small. Small meaning just mowed down or as they are coming up this year.

Toward the end of last season, I mowed them down, then dug up as many as I could and then started spraying them with the concentrated brush killer. Nothing has come up yet this year but I am in Connecticut and it is still too early. However, I have already sprayed the area just to stay ahead of them.

Good luck!

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Jess
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Cajj since I last talked to you I was at a loss as to what exactly this plant was. I thought I would wait and see if anyone else knew what it was and what to do. Now that its at the top of the forum again I thought I had to find out. After trawling around google and finding it being called ditch lily, tiger lily, and that dreadful lily! I finally found out. It is Hemerocallis fulva which is...exactly as you said..a day lily. One that in this country you go and buy in a nursery or garden center. Firstly I will never buy this plant having read what a beast it is and secondly when a plant is that vigorous your best bet is to cover it with dark plastic and/or synthetic carpet and walk away for a year. The poison will be poisonous to the plant but also poisonous to everything else in the vicinity including your children! Any drift could affect your neighbours plants, the other lady that posted would end up poisoning everything in her pond and any wildlife around would suffer too. The fact that you are intending to use it at a greater strength than it should be may also mean that it could reside in the soil for more than a year depending on what it is so that you will be unable to plant anything else in there once you have killed the lillies!

cajj
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Hi Jess,

You are right about the pond, as it will certainly seep into the water. And you are right about using the weed killer more concentrated. I do realize the dangers of this and I am not planning to plant anything in this area for some time.

Please understand that not all daylillies are this prolific and weed like. The ditch daylily, not the same as the tiger lily, but maybe the same as a tiger daylily, is truly a weed.

And certainly, its smaller "cousin" the stella dora is not pervasive at all.

Cajjman

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Grey
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I'm not an advocate of any weed killer, really. They are, as a rule carcinogenic (cancer-causing) and many do not dissipate/break-up/decompose in a few days, a few years, or whatever the bottle tells you. Some stay for 20+ years. That's a lot of time, and a lot of damage.

I think covering the area for a year would be your best bet. I'm not terribly surprised that they are so difficult to get rid of. But, maybe you can keep digging them up and be the "Lily Lady" who sells them every year!

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Hello,
Hope I am not too late for reply. I had been battling ditch lilies for years too. I had a patch about 20 x 15 feet. I finally mowed them with the mower, put down wet newspaper, fairly thick and overlapping, then about a foot of mulch. Do not cut through this mulch for planting for at least a year because that will introduce light and moisture and the lilies will miraculously pop through. I have a few popping through here and there because I planted too soon, and I just spray each one with Round-Up until they die off. But these are some of the touchest plants on earth!!!

wingdesigner
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I agree with the no-light approach, but I would use plastic or synthetic, not paper, and use a couple of layers, unless you've got some old pond liner laying around. Another suggestion, would be to see if there is a native plant area that would take them (the stragglers), or someone looking to build a bio-filtration system ("rain garden"), those things are champs at filtering water. Good luck.

Happy Gardening.

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Biglambeg
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Daylillies

please, please don't kill this beautiful plant.Take any cuttings and send them to Ulster(Northern Ireland) to arrive no later than the 11th of July in time for the big walk. :D

IrisPrincess
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why in the world do you want to kill them? I think they are gorgeous, and I would die to have hundreds of them!

cabosan1978
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eradicating orange lillies

i recently bought a home that was surrounded by and had numerous "orange" lily beds. i would say they numbered, at minimum in the thousands. For those of you who like these, good for you. I did not plan on putting any more of these into the ground but did have to come up with a way of removing them from my landscaping scheme.

I had 2 areas.

One, around my entire home. I buzzed them all down with a hedge trimmer. Put a weed guard over the exposed bulb stumps and topped that with about 4 inches of mulch. My problems arose where the weed gird has its edges. Around the perimeters and where the holding stakes pop through the barrier itself. They are coming back here and there as I predicted in these areas so I am using a chemical that breaks down when in contact with the soil, as most do and will not have long term effects. It is a work in progress but a controled one.

Second Area . . . flower beds removed in my yard. Had success! I mowed the lillies to the ground with a weed trimmer as close to soil as I could. I then soaked them, and only the bunches with a degrading chemical. This did it. They are done in these areas and are decomposing and not returning. I wish I would have done this with the ones under the mulch but I have learned for future.

I hope this helps with anyone with this problem and you can use this in your own situations.

ahughes798
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Killing Hemerocallis

Round-Up(glyphosate) at the mixture rate on the label will kill Hemerocallis. It may take a couple of applications, but it will do the job. It's how I killed mine. Use the glove of death method, or be <b>really</b> careful about over-spray.

I don't like using chemicals, but Round-up breaks down harmlessly in the soil in within 5 days, and is non-toxic to pets and people in less than 24 hours. It is basically not toxic to anything but plants. Of all the herbicides out there...it takes the least environmental toll.

About the only worrying thing I've heard about Round-Up(glyphosate)is that it has been showing up in the belly fat of wild rabbits, and there were no ill effects shown in the rabbits, until the researchers killed them to check out their belly fat.

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imagardener2
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You're going to think I'm kidding with what I'm about to say, but I'm not...

I've found the very best way to get something to not grow is to find a market for it.

I bought 2 batches of these on eBay (they don't sell them down here and it's dry & hot enough here to keep them in check). Sell yours at a flea market, Farmers' Mkt, eBay, where ever, but SELL THEM. It'll give you the drive to get out there and dig them up and, I promise you, they'll quit growing for you before you know it!

Really, really!
Last edited by imagardener2 on Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Killing Hemerocallis

ahughes798 wrote:I don't like using chemicals, but Round-up breaks down harmlessly in the soil in within 5 days, and is non-toxic to pets and people in less than 24 hours. It is basically not toxic to anything but plants. Of all the herbicides out there...it takes the least environmental toll.
I don't wish to offend, but you hit my soapbox and so I'm going to stand up on it. RoundUp/glyphosphate does NOT harmlessly degrade in the soil in 5 days and is very, very toxic to pets, people and children. Only Monsanto (its manufacturer) and the EPA testing FUNDED BY Monsanto says differently (BTW, the EPA and Monsanto have a revolving door between who works with which). It is highly discouraged in Europe and is linked to many, many cancers, including reproductive and pulmonary problems. Please, please read this thread:

https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1749

*gets off soapbox*

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Jess
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This soap box is getting well used by the two of us Grey. :lol: and I was standing up there with you on this subject.
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Hemerocallis fulva is formally identified as being an invasive species-
https://www.invasive.org/browse/subject.cfm?sub=3407

This species is a problem child on the continent of North America. Scroll down to a map to see all the areas in which it is documented as having naturalized-
https://plants.usda.gov/java/nameSearch?mode=sciname&keywordquery=Hemerocallis+fulva

RoundUp would kill them but... the surfactant used in RU is not appropriate to use anywhere near water (or life forms in general) and I won't even use it anywhere on my property any longer for reasons mentioned by Grey. Yes, I do have some left over but will try my best to use it in stamp licker bottles which will better enable me to have greater control over the chemical to go after any remaining English Ivy, Periwinkle, or other invasive species that pop up over the next year. RU makes me extremely uncomfortable. If one must use a product that utilizes glyphosate as the active ingredient, please consider Rodeo of Aquamaster. I'm also not a proponent of spraying any chemicals because of drift issues. The leaves of H. fulva can easily be painted with a chemical using a 1" foam paint trim brush. Using a concentrate on H. fulva is probably going to backfire. It can work too fast. Kills off the above ground vegetation before the chemicals fully work their way down into all of the roots. Here's one of the reasons why concentrates will probably backfire, excerpt from here-
https://sain.utk.edu/invasives/species32.shtml
individuals of H. fulva are well adapted to secure the best soil position for survival by having two mechanisms to regulate soil depth: the pulling effect of contractile roots, and, as an emergency response, the opposite effect of upward growth of the facultative shoot elongation.
These ditch lilies will be able to be killed off without chemicals. The methods described by Candida and wingdesigner will work. They won't work overnight or even over the course of a month but they will work over time. I've known gardeners to kill these off by blanketing them with old carpets. Smothering and solarizing them will nuke them nicely but it takes a few months. I used sheets of plywood to kill them off up north of all things. Had checked the dump to see if there was any pitched carpets and had come up empty handed but did find some incredibly warped plywood and grabbed it. It worked. Left it in place from spring to fall then figured I might as well just leave it in place till the next gardening season so I did. Ditch lilies were very dead.

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I disagree completely. All the fact sheets I have read say that it has the least environmental impact(toxicity) of any of the herbicides.

I didn't say <b>NO</b> environmental impact....I said the least, which is why I still hesitate to use the stuff.

Yes, there are a bunch of bullet points in that thread, but do you have the links to the scientific studies to back them up? I'd like to read them, for my own information.

You don't use Round-Up near water. Round up kills frogs and fishes. You use Rodeo for water/marsh/swamp/fen/bog applications.

Like I said, I don't like using chemicals, and I don't. They should be used very sparingly, or not at all....and that also includes Chemlawn, Miracle Grow, Osmocote, Scots Weed and Feed, Preen, Capstan(which you could buy at the hardware store and basically has the power to re-arrange your DNA) and all the other junk that people dump on their lawns and in their flowerbeds every year, and don't think anything about it, yet are HORRIFIED if you mention "using chemicals." If you're using any of the above...you're part of the problem.

So, tell me, how in the heck are you going to smother invasive exotics on an in progress prairie restoration, 500 acre weed field under 6-8" of newspapers/mulch? Or clear plastic? Can you procure enough mulch to cover 500 acres 8 inches deep? Can YOU get enough voluteers to pull weeds all season for a decade or two until the seed bank is depleted, if you <b>aren't</b> going to use glyphosate? Knowing full well that when you pull the weed seedlings, you are further disturbing the soil, enabling even more weed seedlings to sprout? Can you get them to volunteer to uproot Phragmites grass in wet areas? Or Narrow leaf cat-tail? Keeping in mind that you have to get every bit of teeny tiny little bit of root in these plants, or they will re-sprout. It's unpleasant work, and people will get dirty doing it. People don't want to get dirty, by and large.

I'm sorry...but usually the State Dept. Of Natural Resources budgets are the first ones cut. Which means less people doing restoration work, unless you can find volunteers, which isn't easy, this is tough work for no money. And I'm not so sure that digging stuff up is the answer...sometimes it out and out has to be killed, by Round Up or Rodeo, vis a vis invasive exotic species in natural areas.

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Round up shouldn't be used in any situation, the active ingredient is very long lasting in any environment and kills microflora and fauna in the soil for years after it has been applied. For this reason, you shouldn't use anything with the suffix cide.

And yes, the jury is not out on the amphibean crisis north america is in but, because of it, nothing with the suffix cide should be used. Some scientific literature has stated that posions are a part of the problem but, many other factors are as well.

And if you search in journals like nature, conservation biology and so on you can find all sorts of articles on the effects of toxic agents on both human health, soil health, crop health and animal health. Actually if you have access to the web of science that would lead you to a better search.

Another problem gripping North America is the native been population in and for this reason the use of poisons should also be curtailed. I think the real problem is the fact that home gardeners use them so profusely when they are not needed. Not to mention this industrial based agriculture that we use these days and the overuse of synthetic poisons and fertilzers that is killing soil health in the world.

If you have a serious problem and nothing else works then fine use a poison as a solution but otherwise, try to work with nature by understanding the fundamentals of soil and plant/animal biology and ecology to have a working garden that is virtually free of disease and is healthy for you, your neighbours, your pets and so on so forth.

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imagardener2
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opabinia51 wrote:Round up shouldn't be used in any situation, the active ingredient is very long lasting in any environment and kills microflora and fauna in the soil for years after it has been applied. For this reason, you shouldn't use anything with the suffix cide.
[img]https://geocities.com/d_m_g_s/emoticons/Blush2.gif[/img]Um, you don't want to come to my house......

Down here where certain plants can get absolutely out of hand Round Up helps keep things sane.

And I was an founding member of TOGA (Texas Organic Growers Assoc.).
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I disagree to an extent. Like antibiotics, glyphosate is frequently misused, overused, and abused. But also like antibiotics, glyphosate can improve our lot in life but only through restraint and prudent use. I believe there do exist situations in which a product containing glyphosate should be used. I would prefer it be Rodeo or Aquamaster after all other more environmentally friendly options have been exhausted. Volunteers simply aren't jumping out of the woodwork standing in line to commit to volunteering endless hours under land stewards to mechanically control invasive species in natural areas and one thing is for sure, delaying control of invasive species because of a lack of manpower has major consequences. "Like an out-of-control wildfire, the cost of fighting invasive species increases each year. Among those who work with invasive species, the consensus is that for every year control is delayed, the costs of control increase two- to three-fold."

https://www.weedcenter.org/inv_plant_info/impacts.html

Comparing a natural resource manager or conservationist with formal education and/or experience as pertains to our natural world to the average homeowner is akin to comparing apples to oranges. We mustn't fault the natural resource manager for not being a good homeowner and conversely we mustn't fault the land owner for not being a good resource manager but... we can all learn from one another. Education is paramount.

If you find a natural resource manager grabbing their "fireant-be-gone" without assessing the environmental impacts and weighing the pros and cons, it's time for that individual to find a new job. The goal of the NRM and conservationist is to protect the environment through sound decision making. Sometimes, the best that can be hoped for is that we come out ahead when the score is tallied.
There's no greater proof that monocultures are "bad" than the fact that the natural world which supports all life forms selects diversity over monocultures. Organic farming successfully avoids the use of pesticides by not planting crops in monocultures - no doubt an idea copied from nature. We use herbicides in our natural areas to maintain or restore those systems back to their previously un-infested state, so that we won't have to apply billions of gallons of pesticides every year. Healthy functioning ecosystems are the best "pesticide" there is.
Hundreds and thousands of years of evolution could and will create new systems from our currently invaded ones if left unmanaged, however, there are very real threats to the environment and humans happening right now and in the meantime. For instance, fire is a huge problem out west and in many parts of the world because invasives have altered fire regimes or in some cases have added fire when there was none previously. These invasive plants have altered fuel type and load, burn frequency and intensity among many other factors. Not only does that change in fire regime have serious consequences to those ecosystems and our planet overall, but to the health and economy of those communities and states that live in and depend on those functioning systems and all the resources they provide: food, clean water and air, erosion control, flood prevention and on and on.
It's easy to say chemicals are bad but we must think of what happens when entire ecosystems are left to invasion. Who will don a shovel and help me hand dig 40,000 acres of Knapweed? Please know NRMs and conservationists don't enjoy exposing themselves to chemicals or dealing with public outcries. Chemicals are hopefully the last resort after everything else has failed.

I believe with all my heart that we are not really disagreeing with each other as much as what would appear to the casual reader. I doubt anyone here is not sincerely concerned about changes taking place that have modified habitats of native flora and fauna that will negatively impact human health. I know I won't be around to see if anything I am doing will have made a difference 100 years from now but my epitaph will be able to read that I tried.

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Grey
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I try to be as non-toxic as possible during my time here on earth. I even make my own laundry detergent.

Here is some scattered research pointing to the toxicity of Roundup:

https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/members/2005/7728/7728.html

https://www.unplugsalem.org/study%20glyphosate.htm

https://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/33/9950

https://mac10.umc.pitt.edu/m/FMPro?-db=ma&-lay=a&-format=d.html&id=2115&-Find

https://www.twnside.org.sg/title2/service185.htm

https://www.organicconsumers.org/monsanto/roundup.cfm

https://www.organicconsumers.org/Monsanto/roundup92502.cfm

https://www.counterpunch.org/bigwood08232003.html

https://www.organicconsumers.org/foodsafety/glyphosate051503.cfm



And I took some information from the post here on THG, but added to it here:
https://unofficiallyoptimistic.com/?p=24

Excerpt from an article:
April 5, 2005

Source: Ecological Applications (journal)

Roundup(r) Highly Lethal to Amphibians in Natural Setting, Finds University of Pittsburgh Researcher

Pitt assistant professor of biology Rick Relyea found that Roundup(r), the second most commonly applied herbicide in the United States, is "extremely lethal" to amphibians. This field experiment is one of the most extensive studies on the effects of pesticides on nontarget organisms in a natural setting, and the results may provide a key link to global amphibian declines.

In a paper titled "The Impact of Insecticides and Herbicides on the Biodiversity and Productivity of Aquatic Communities," published in the journal Ecological Applications, Relyea examined how a pond's entire community-25 species, including crustaceans, insects, snails, and tadpoles-responded to the addition of the manufacturers' recommended doses of two insecticides-Sevin(r) (carbaryl) and malathion-and two herbicides-Roundup(r) (glyphosate) and 2,4-D.

Relyea found that Roundup(r) caused a 70 percent decline in amphibian biodiversity and an 86 percent decline in the total mass of tadpoles.



Another excerpt I found interesting:

From Terra Daily.com

The US agrochemical giant Monsanto was fined 15,000 euros (19,000 dollars) in a French court Friday for misleading the public about the environmental impact of its flagship herbicide Roundup.

A former chairman of Monsanto Agriculture France was found guilty of false advertising for presenting Roundup as biodegradable and claiming that it left the soil clean after use. Monsanto's French distributor Scotts France was also fined 15,000 euros.

Environmental and consumer rights campaigners brought the case in 2001 on the basis that glyphosate, Roundup's main ingredient, is classed as "dangerous for the environment" and "toxic for aquatic organisms" by the European Union.

Both defendants were ordered to pay damages of 5,000 euros to the Brittany Water and Rivers association and 3,000 euros to the CLCV consumers group.


I can find more. Much more. How much do you need? I have files and files of information and research at my office that I'll be happy to share. Much of what I have at my office details what Migrant Workers health effects have been from inhaling this crap every day. It's really sad.

TheLorax
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I read everything at all of your links Grey. Some nice links. I particularly liked this one-
https://www.counterpunch.org/bigwood08232003.html
Unfortunately, we’re going to be learning a lot more about fusarium in the years to come and based on what little familiarity I have with fusariums, it’s much scarier stuff than RoundUp.

Test results originally presented to the EPA on RoundUp involved glyphosate alone. Pretty scummy in my humble opinion and I have no doubt this was by design.

Formulations of Roundup contain the surfactant POEA (polyoxyethylene-alkylamine aka polyethoxylated tallowamine). To the best of my knowledge, that would be our real foe and it’s a cheap surfactant and millions of consumers out there want a cheap product… Monsanto is capitalizing on our collective ignorance.

Glyphosate poses no unreasonable risks to human health and the environment when used according to label directions. It's toxicity to wildlife is allegedly low comparatively speaking. Considerably more research is needed before I personally will buy those previous statements but definitely not so for POEA.

This is what we need to fear, "With the removal of patent protection for glyphosate, many new glyphosate products will enter the market, each with its own surfactant mixture. Surfactants have been shown to vary in estrogenicity (Routledge and Sumpter, 1996) and toxicity (Mann and Bidwell, 1999), depending on their chemical classification (anionic, nonionic, cationic, etc.). The chronic effects of each glyphosate-based herbicide could be drastically different depending on the surfactant used as well as species exposed."

We should start a thread somewhere identifying all products being sold that contain glyphosate utilizing POEA. It’s not just RoundUp that we North Americans are getting our hands on from home improvement, hardware, big box, and garden centers; it's all the knock-off products now flooding the market.

In my dreams, RoundUp (and all other comparable formulations being unleashed on the unsuspecting public) would be removed from every shelf across the continent of North America and would never be approved for use in wheat fields by the agricultural industry.

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I agree with you, Lorax.

Unfortunately, what is used on crops is even stronger than what Joe Homeowner can purchase. Monsanto has created GE crops (corn, soy, wheat and cotton, incidentally the same crops that are given government subsidies) that are resistant to their commercial roundup product - and some of the information regarding the genetic engineering tells me the way they do it is sloppy and can cause proteins to mutate. Further when fed to cattle (or, I suppose, people) I read that the cotton at least (not known on the other varieties yet) have unstable proans (form of protein) and if fed to cattle (which it is, along with corn and cow parts) could potentially create a new form of Mad Cow. :shock:

But Monsanto does not want you to know that.

I think you are right, we should start a post that has all the products with "bad" stuff in it.

By the way, does anyone remember the poster we had here (18 mos to a year ago) who had sprayed Roundup on his lawn to kill weeds, and then found all the worms were coming out of his soil to die afterwards? When he called Monsanto about it, he was told to report himself to the EPA and to inform his neighbors about what he had done as well for runoff concerns in case they wanted to file a report against him.

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Yaa, I tried to do it but couldn't post in the sticky thread on RoundUp because it got locked. There are going to be a lot of Joe Homeowners out there spraying away with wild abandon attempting to achieve that "quick fix' that is cheap and I can assure you their collective behavior is going to take an even greater toll on the environment than it already has. Multiply the cumulative effects of millions of Joe Homeowners using RoundUp and RoundUp knock-offs being marketed as silver bullets at even regular strength and quite frankly, I fear the public more than the agricultural industry.

There's a lot that Monsanto doesn't want us to know. GMO's are in the forefront right now which is another reason why I joined this forum. I really need to get up to speed on organic vegetable gardening. My veggie skills are waaaaaaaay down there with my landscaping skills.

Please laugh with me but not at me for what I am about to say- I did a workshop once and in the best official sounding cop voice I could muster, I told everyone in my class to "Put down the RoundUp, step away from your turf and roses, and put your hands in the air". It got a good deep belly laugh out of everyone as by that time they were beginning to make connections for themselves which would better enable them to make informed and responsible choices in the future.

Talk of Mad Cow disease leads down the path to a discussion of prions. Proteinaceous infectious particles don't need genetic material to replicate. We'd be chatting about prions and even Formaldehyde can't kill them. Deer are the natural hosts. It isn’t a given that the species barrier will protect us from animal prion diseases. “Conversion of human prion protein by CWD-associated prions has been demonstrated in an in vitro cell-free experiment.â€

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You can also look up the MSDS on Azadirachtin the active ingredient in Round Up.

I think it's really sad actually that when you walk into a nursery that there is alwasy a wall of herbicides, insecticides, fungicides and pesticides that gardeners are first exposed to. We grow up thinking these things are good. And we use them thinking that using them is fine and dandy and doesn't do any harm.

And we also use genetically modified plants to provide us with food that will not grow unless they are grown with all these poisons, further harming our environment and ourselves. They sell soaps now to wash off the poisons on our food. So now, instead of ingesting poisons we're ingesting soap residues.

Anyway off my little soap box. Turn to the scientific literature, and just use common sense; poisons kill biota and artificially select for resistant strains of disease organisms.

A healthy, disease resistant garden uses nature as an ally and the little bit of work that goes into a garden rewards the gardener with good health from that work. And the tasty vegetables that come from a food garden reward the gardener with lovely, tasty delights.

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Grey
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When I worked for a garden center I tried hard to steer people away from buying all the 'cides. I was the "organic person" even though i know my knowledge is really terribly basic. But I tried.

It's arguably "easier" to use the cides and fertilizers. But if you aren't careful, each can cause you some woes too. The worst that happens organically is you keep yanking weeds (pull early, pull often) and something may be undernourished if you are low on a nutrient. I haven't had much trouble with bugs. I kill the japanese beetles in the morning when their time to be around arrives, and other than that, I really try to mix up my planting so it isn't a nice yummy block if Plant A then Plant B.

Opa's advice to just do what nature does makes worlds of sense to me.

For the ditch lilies... I'd just cover them up with some thick weedblocker, throw a ton of mulch over that so they can't see the light of day, and leave them for a few years.

TheLorax
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I am familiar with Azadirachtin. Azadirachtin is not and to the best of my knowledge never has been an active ingredient in RoundUp but it is the active ingredient in Safer Brand Bioneem Multi-Purpose Concentrate Insecticide & Repellent, Azatin XL, and Neemazal. In the US, it’s classified as relatively non-toxic. Wouldn’t you just love these people to provide their working definition of “relatively non-toxicâ€

ahughes798
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I 48, and have been a gardener since I was 8. My dad used all manner of chemicals on his garden, inorganic ones, I mean.

I have been working as a restoration volunteer for the biggest part of 30 years.

I decided last year to finally go to school and get a degree in hort/natural areas management so I'd be taken seriously by prospective employers.

My front yard is about 90% native plants. My back yard is 100% native, except for the grass, and whatever weeds blow into my little fake prairie re-creation.

It's 500 square feet. It was hardpacked, so in the beginning, I had to roto-till the soil, which exposed the weed seed lingering in the soil to light, so I had even more weeds.

I used round up 3 times on it, at half strength, to try and deplete the weed seed bank a little. That's the only time I have ever used chemicals on my property, and I haven't had to, since. Though I might use the glove of death method on canada goldenrod this year, it's a very aggressive native. No danger of overspray, or over use, with glove of death, or paintbrush of death.

A lot of the Round-up articles seem to focus on it's effects on amphibians. Well, DUH. It says right on the label not to use it on windy days, or spray it on or near water.

Even organic fertilisers and pesticides are chemicals. They just use naturally occuring ones. I use BT in my pond. It's still a chemical. Neem is a pesticide. It's a chemical.

I worked at a garden center last year, and people would come in asking for inorganic pesticides when a problem hadn't even shown up yet. They wanted to spray as a preventative. That's just wrong, IMO. And then there's the weed and feed and Trugreen/Chemlawn people......

Hoping to do a burn on Sunday!

opabinia51
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Actually, we can mimic nature as best we can and trying to work with nature provides the soil with with health and vitality and using permaculture techniques we can work with nature as apposed to against.

My apologies it's glyphosate that I meant to say.

https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1749


https://msds.chem.ox.ac.uk/PH/N-(phosphonomethyl)glycine.html

I don't use any poisons in my gardens and use nature as my ally as apposed to my foe. People are welcome to do what they wish, but if you review scientific literature on the effects of poisons on our own health, soil health and plant health, I have found that organic is the way to go.

And my garden has never looked so good since I started gardening organically.

Poisons should be a last resort use element not a first resource use. In north america at this time, humans are bioaccumlating toxins in there systems, the jury is still out as to the conclusive effects of this but, it is much better to be safe than sorry.

Not to mention the untold numbers of microbiota that we are killing with the use of poisons in our gardens, and the native bee and frog populations that are being decimated from the use of poisons and other problems.

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Jess
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Grey this is the earthworms thread.
www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5429
Knowing without doing is like plowing without sowing."

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Grey
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Thanks Jess. That cleans up my recollection of the events.

ahughes798
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No one knows for sure what is causing colony collapse disorder in bees. It's apparently a very complex issue, though strides have been made of late vis a vis the cause of CCD. I'll believe whatever Nature magazine's conclusions are. I'v no doubt that pesticides, organic and inorganic, play a role.

It had been speculated at one time that one of the causes of CCD is cel phones. Are people going to get rid of their cels to save bees?

It has also been posited that monarch larvae are killed by "organic" farmers who use BT on their fields. What's that about organic having little impact? Does anyone realise that when one uses the organically correct milky spore on their lawn, they're also killing firefly larvae? And a host of other grubs that feed on grass roots...that other animals, like skunks, use for food?

Skunks are becoming rare in my area. Is that okay?

Frogs and amphibians are being killed by pesticides(organic and inorganic)<b>for sure.</b>They are also being killed, doubletime, by a virus imported from Asia.

Oak trees are being killed by a virus called Sudden Oak Death imported from China in hydrangeas for the nursery industry, and the pine bark beetle is also an imported pest, not to mention Dutch Elm Disease, Emerald Ash Borer, Chinese Long-Horned Beetle, the western US is being swallowed by cheat grass, and leave us not forget Buckthorn, which not only crowds out native forbs, grasses and trees, it changes the composition of the very soil it grows in so nothing else will grow there, etc.

My point is.... that in the US, I'd be willing to bet exotic diseases, plants, bugs and animals do a heck of a lot more environmental damage than Joe Blow using Round-up once a year on his crab grass.
Last edited by ahughes798 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 1:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Grey
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I hear you, ahughes. I just try to do my part, and however small I feel my part is, I just try to be sooo careful about everything I buy and use.

It's a cumulative effect. Consumerism is at its core, probably the worst threat to the environment. Planned obsolecence of everything from computers to your cell phones (ever wonder why the stupid things break every year?), to women's shoe styles (shouldn't be caught dead with pointy-toe shoes now, it's all the peekaboo toe these days! Think of all the shoes you have bought that busted without a whole lot of wear and tear.

It all adds up, all these little things. :(

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imagardener2
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ahughes798 wrote:It had been speculated at one time that one of the causes of CCD is cel phones. Are people going to get rid of their cels to save bees?
Do you know that that was really a study by the Germans about cordless phones and never meant to be about cell phones? The tests were conducted by sticking the base unit of a cordless phone set in the bees' hive! Small wonder the bees wouldn't go back to home. [img]https://geocities.com/d_m_g_s/emoticons/spineyes.gif[/img]

The most recent hypothesis of CCD is that they are under too much stress which allows them to fall prey to things they once could fight off. -cides are some of the things sighted as stressors.
"Our elders instruct us to always walk upon Mother Earth with respect, gentleness, and with thankful hearts. We must never deviate from the fundamental precept of stewardship, or we will be capable of causing great harm."

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imagardener2
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HGTV Article

HGTV has a great article on their website right now entitled:

[url=https://www.hgtv.com/hgtv/gl_gardening_basics/article/0,1785,HGTV_3589_5833802,00.html]Create a Buzz in Your Garden:
Bring in the Bees[/url]
"Our elders instruct us to always walk upon Mother Earth with respect, gentleness, and with thankful hearts. We must never deviate from the fundamental precept of stewardship, or we will be capable of causing great harm."

ahughes798
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because all these little things are connected.

Thanks, Grey.

TheLorax
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I knew it! I knew we were all on the same page!

You know what I'd like to see? I'd like to see a forum just for invasive species.

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Grey
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Lorax is going to keep adding pages to this forum. :lol:

Maybe we could have a section that's just entitled "bad things" with threads on invasive (plant) species, Invasive (insect) species, toxic chemicals, etc.

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