Now I blew it up

[IndyGerdener]

Got up this morning and found my greenhouse at 19 degrees... Did some investigating and it appears that the outlet outside had lost power. I checked the fuse box... nothing blown. I found the GFI was tripped. When I reset the GFI I could see sparks behind the wall plate... I just left it alone and brought all of my frozen plants in from the greenhouse. I am betting total loss. Now I have to figure out what to do about the power problem

[gixxerific]

Hell no that is bunk. That's 2 electrical problems in just a few day's I had some problems early this year. So sorry to hear I sure hope you can rectify the problem.

Good luck my friend.

Dono

[IndyGerdener]

My fingers are crossed that it is just a faulty GFI outlet. I am going to buy one on my way home and hope it fixes it

[rainbowgardener]

Oh man, soooo sorry to hear that. I got lucky, not least because the plants in question were in my basement not in a greenhouse, so the worst they had to suffer was dark and a bit cool.

Depending on what you were growing and how many hours they were in unheated before you rescued them, it may not all be a total loss. Keeping my fingers crossed for you.

[applestar]

Adding a note in my "My Green House Project for some day" to install some kind of a thermal alert/alarm -- there's an aftermarket kind for chest freezers when it gets too warm, so there must be a similar product for when it gets too cold.... Also, I bought a thermoplug ... Oh wait that won't work if the outlet is dead... I guess it would have to be a remote sensor with an indoor base unit that will sound the alarm. *Maybe* a tiny kerosene heater (camp heater?) with a thermostat (is there such a thing?) as a backup? ....

SO sorry to hear. I hope some recovery is possible.

[IndyGerdener]

When I went to bed last night I looked at my wireless thermometer that sits next to my bed. it was at 40. A little low, but not to worry. when I got up it said 19. When I went out there the water in the bottom of the pan I was watering from was froze solid. the leaves of the cilantro were crispy frozen, and the leaves of the potted flowers had ice crystals on them, I KNOW there isn't much hope

[applestar]

How big are the cilantro? I have some out there in the open hugging the ground but alive. Older leaves have died but young leaves are more freeze resistant. Some of the same time seeded Red Russian Kale have keeled over, so cilantro is tougher than you might think.

[IndyGerdener]

I had harvested it one time about a week ago, It had decent leaves again. young but decent. When I went out this morning I touched the leaves to see how frozen they were, and they crumbled

[valley]

Sorry you had that trouble. Sounds lake you have electric heat out there. The size of the wire and type of outlet is important. If the leg/line going out to the greenhouse is any length you should have, Let's say there is 60 foot of cable from where it is taken of the supply. You should be able to get away with 10ga wire, most would suggest 8ga. but at the point where you have the power points, but not too much attached to that point. It is better to take off other outlets from that point as things run cooler. Outlet have ratings, a heater can be plugged into an outlet, the outlet can be too light, the material it is made of and have a lower rating than you demand.

If a heater that draws a lot of amps is used, it would be better to install a GFI breaker than an outlet that is GFI, than you can install a heavier rated outlet.

The problem most likely was the use of an outlet with too low a rating.

Richard

[Dillbert]

>>19'F
well, that most likely toasted it all. major bummer.

>>sparks behind the plate
oh dear - sparks are not a good sign. at it's most innocent, couple wires got too close or thru heating/expansion/cooling/contraction got "loose" on the terminals.

however.... if you've been running close to max amperage through the GFI for an extended period, likely that the GFI has blown itself up. although on-the-whole quite reliable, long term 100% taxing them to their max can make them go poof.

if you can split up the load onto multiple circuits, that provides some "backup" capability.

there are wired and wireless temp alarms - just be sure they are battery powered and/or their power source is not the same as the heating . . .

[Ozark Lady]

I am so sorry.

Have you figured out what failed and led to the whole problem?

Did something trigger the GFI?

It does not sound good for your plants, even the very cold hardy ones, would be in shock since they had no time to adjust to the temps.

I think that I would consider running a second power line, from a different GFI and installing a back up heat system, even a small one, that kicks on at a lower temp. Just as a safe guard for next winter. But, an area-wide power outage would limit you to kerosene, wood or camp type heaters. If you are relying on electric heaters, keep a spare on hand. I have had 2 go down this winter. These were brand new heaters. The cheap ones won't even provide back up heat for an entire winter. Light bulbs last longer than electric heaters! Get redundant in your heat needs!

[IndyGerdener]

The GFI was the problem. It was a 30 year old GFI and it was wire nutted into the house wiring system. There were 4" braided wires that were connected through the wire nuts. I am almost certain that it was causing a major load there which over time caused expansion and contraction and arched causing a devistating blow to the old GFI. I am going to keel an eye on it tonight and see if it is fixed.

My beans are toast, the flowers had a few leaves out of the bulb start and they are drooping. There is a possibility the rest are ok. Most of the cilantro is clearly trash, but there are a few leaves that I have faith will pull through.

All in all I am glad it didnt catch my house on fire, and glad my pepper plants were not out there. Seems like a positive outcome (so far)

[valley]

Nothing wrong with wire nuts.

[IndyGerdener]

But there is something wrong with braided line splice to wire nuts

[LA47]

I,m sure sorry to hear about your plants but, thank goodness, some survived.

[Dillbert]

the early GFI had attached wires - stranded for flexibility - wire nuts is the normal way to attach such. there is no issue with the stranded wire presuming it's heavy enough to handle the load.

[IndyGerdener]

Well it is where the heat was the worst.

[valley]

Indy, Braided wire is fine. binding it to solid wire with wire nuts is fine. I don't know the length of the run to the greenhouse. You have at least 12ga, 10ga is better.

Before I go deeper, What do you see that is wrong with the braided wire?

Indy, I've done this for a living. If you would like me to help you with it, I'll be happy to. If you have things under control or are getting help elsewhere, I'll drop back by this thread to see how you resolved the problem.

Richard

[IndyGerdener]

I have a 50' extension cord plugged into the outdoor outlet. The cord is not hot, but the outlets that are connected to the outdoor line are still getting hot. nothing plugged into them and they are getting hot. I unplugged the heater and the outlets cooled down. I just think the problem is that the internal wires in the house can't keep the heater running.

I am bailing on the electric heater in the greenhouse and going to get a kerosene heater tonight. that should cure my problems

[valley]

Greetings Indy, I think you are saying the outlets on the end of the cord, at the greenhouse are getting hot?

What you need from the point where you take the power from the source is:

The power can be taken from the Panel at a breaker, Or if the power is taken from an outlet the outlet should be pig tailed to the line, the romax inside the box so it shares the hot line, common and ground of the outlet, not plugged into the outlet. The wire, romax, in the box should be at least 12ga, if the wire is 16ga or smaller you should start from the main, install a 20amp breaker, Take a line, at least 12ga 10ga is better. to the greenhouse, you can slip the wire into 3/4" PVC as you go, it doesn't have to be buried deep. DO EVERYTHING with the main breaker turned off. Or do everything except the work at the main panel than tie in with the main off.

At the greenhouse you need a small sub panel. In the Sub Panel install a GFI breaker, from the breaker to the outlet or outlets. When you install the outlets don't use the pushins, screw the wire to the outlet.

If you're in a stick house, you might have 12ga wire in the wall, If you have a manufactured home, a moble home there is more chance the wire in the wall will be 16ga. This isn't as much work as it might sound.

If I haven't said this clearly I'll write it a different way ,

Richard

[valley]

The PVC can be run along a wall or fence, with plastic hangers. If digging is a problem because of a side walk.

[IndyGerdener]

I would not be afraid to run a new line as you described, but I am renting this house and am trying to make as little major changes as possible. I think my biggest problem now is the size of the extension cord I am using. It will be fine enoigh to run my fans. I just bought a kerosene heater that will heat the greenhouse when it is freezing. And really that will only last for another month. So I should be fine. Thank you for the help though.

Also I think there is some wiring problems in that circuit because even with the greenhouse unpluged when I run my vaccuum the outlet gets hot. I am going to avoid using that circuit from now on

[valley]

You can get an extention cord that is 12ga wire. It would be safer also to use outlets with a higher rating. I was hoping you had someone there who could help you with this. please let us know how you do arrange it.

[Dillbert]

I too am a bit confused.

extension cords are commonly available in 12 and 14 g. superlightduty perhaps 16 g.

it's easy to tell the difference - not that they aren't marked - just look at the price tag - a 50 ft 12g set me back about $80 - needed it for an electric chain saw 'on the back 40'

the extension cord is plugged into the house outlet, what is on the other end of the extension cord? I'm thinking there's some multiplier used? something that plugs into the extension cord and has 3-4 outlet plugs on that? is that the thing that's getting hot?

again, check what amperage the thing is rated for - cheap ones are only for light duty, and a heater isn't likely to be light duty....

[valley]

Forgive me Indy, I wanted to help, instead I made things sound impossible.

[IndyGerdener]

The circuit for the outlet outside has a GFI in the garage, a switched light in the kitchen 2 outlets in the living room and the outdoor outlet ran together. The outdoor outlet has a 50' cheap extension cord plugged into it and a multi port plug on the other end. I unplugged everything but the 1500w heater from the power strip. The GFI and the outlets in the living room are the ones getting hot. No heat on the outdoor outlet or extension cord. Only indoor outlets with nothing plugged into them

I was prob not very clear. But this should make it easier to understand

[Dillbert]

okay, clearer.

but there's a staggering issue here:

an outlet - any outlet - indoors or outdoors - with nothing plugged in to it is getting hot.

if that is true, you need an electrician A-double-SAP

there's something seriously bad wrong there and it's the kind of thing that often ends in lots of flames and smoke.

there is the outside chance that something else plugged in "down stream" to those outlets is drawing so much current the physical connections at the outlet are overheating - that spells fire

[IndyGerdener]

Yes that is why I unplugged the heater and switched to the kerosene heater. No more heat in the outlets. Remove the possibility of problems

[Dillbert]

>>Remove the possibility of problems

yes and no.

there is the practice of "wired through" for GFI circuits.
the description of GFI in garage runs thru outlet in LR to another outdoor outlet is all perfectly "normal" - in exactly what order, matters not.

what matters - the main breaker for that circuit did _not_ trip but the outlets - where ever they may be - are "hot"

some part of the physical circuitry is not "handling" the intended load - "hot" outlets are _not_ normal - under any circumstance.

given the "30 year old" situation - could be (since learned = danger) aluminum to copper terminations - corroded connections, improper connections, many many many things.

bottom line: circuit breaker did not trip on "overload," outlets got noticeable hot (temperature wise) - that = problem.

the "yes" part is circuit somewhat over taxed

the "no" part is
(a) should never have happened
(b) now that the circuit is degraded/comprised, might not take max load to make for fire&smoke next time.

there is a lesson for every reader here: electricity is wonderful. when it goes wrong, it's a killer. if you don't know what you're doing and/or what questions to ask, call a licensed electrician.

it costs less than one (or more) funerals - besides, your insurance company will thank you. might even get a Christmas card from them.....

ps: I'm an engineer, not an electrician

[IndyGerdener]

Couldn't agree with you more. I now have a larger extension cord ran to the green house, the heater running on 750 watt instead of 1500 watt and a kerosene heater as a back-up if it gets to cold. My outlets are no longer hot, my green house is still warm (20 outside last night and greenhouse never dropped below 53.

Oh more awesome news, all is not lost with the flowers. after putting them in the grow room for a week and cutting off the damaged bits, the flowers are coming back to life!!!!


on a side note I may take the other outlets that are on that circuit apart and look at the wiring to see if they are daisy chained together and possibly undo that and use fresh parts of wires that are not corroded.