Hi all,
I am planning to start most of my vegetables from seed indoors this year for the first time. I am hoping to get a jump on things in the spring here in USDA 4a and not be as subject to poor germination and/or damping off as in recent years. Alas. I have been reading a lot around here and elsewhere, but I am hoping to get some feedback from the more experienced on my plans. First I will describe what I plan to do, and if you can read through all of that, I have some specific questions, but I am also looking for any advice or comments for a noob such as myself! This is a bit long and detailed, so bear with me, it is my way! Thanks!
I plan to get a 4 foot, 8 bulb T5 light system. Starting mix will be homemade compost, vermiculite and/or perlite, and maybe some coconut coir I have sitting around. I will up pot to that mixed with the soil mix from my raised beds.
As for plants, I plan to start the following with the number of plant outs in parentheses: arugula (9), cauliflower (2), collards (2), cucumber (4), eggplant (2), kale (2), leeks (27), lettuce (13), melon (2), peppers (5), pumpkin (2), spinach (16), chard (6), tomato (4), zucchini (1).
I am also considering starting beets and peas.
For everything but leeks and peas, my current plan is to use toilet paper rolls as the starting pots. Based on several web sites, I will make four 1" cuts up from one end, then fold the flaps over to make a flat bottom. Fill with mix, plant the seed at appropriate depth and bury with vermiculite, then place into a tray of some sort (probably shallow aluminum roasting pans) so that I can water from the bottom.
For up potting of these, I am planning to go into 32 oz. yogurt containers we have been saving since summer and possibly also baby formula containers. The yogurt containers are 5 1/4" deep. The formula containers are rectangular and just under 4 1/2" deep. I also have some 16 oz. keg cups I could use. I figure for all of these I need to cut or burn some drainage holes in the bottoms. Whatever combination of these containers I end up using, I plan to harden these off when the time comes and plant out from them.
For leeks, I will use a 5 or 6" deep rectangular container, probably cardboard, and plant densely with the intention to cut apart the seedlings and rinse the dirt off the roots before planting out. I will plant densely and expect not to use all of them.
For peas I am thinking of using egg cartons and starting one pea in each egg cell after slicing open the bottom of the cell, with the intention of just planting out the whole egg carton (I am basically using square foot gardening in my raised beds).
So here are some specific questions, and I would love to get input from the more experienced on these and also any general comments.
1. Are the formula containers deep enough to be used as the second pot? Assuming I get the timing right, I figure the yogurt containers are deep enough to be the only other pot size I use, but I am not sure about the somewhat shallower formula containers.
2. Can I just transplant seedlings in their toilet paper rolls or do I need to remove the seedlings first? I am thinking that the cardboard of the tube might be soft and rotty enough to break down as a carbon source when planted and allow the roots to penetrate, but I am not sure. I do know to bury the top if I use the tube so that it does not wick moisture.
3. A closely related question is whether planting out the peas in the egg carton will work, particularly if I slice the bottom of each cell before planting. Anyone ever try this? Seems like it could be sooo easy!
4. I know to start more seeds in each initial container (or more intiial starting containers) than I need, but should I also plan to up pot more than I need? Obviously the insurance of more choices to plant out would be good, but I will run out of room unless I can something like two large plants in one formula container (about 4"x5").
5. What are the recommendations for fertilizing the seedlings after up potting?
Again, I would appreciate any and all feedback!
Thanks!
David
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DoubleDogFarm
- Super Green Thumb
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Welcome to the forum David.
Here is a post I started. Starting peas in a gutter.
https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/v ... 0520e012c0
Eric
Here is a post I started. Starting peas in a gutter.
https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/v ... 0520e012c0
Eric
Last edited by DoubleDogFarm on Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
DLup -
you've got some good basics going - some odd-ball thoughts in no particular order
damping off - the bigger the pot the more water it holds the bigger the damping off danger
if damping off has been a problem before, consider using sterile starting mix
that's a lot of plants to put under one 4 ft of light . . . you may need more fixtures
tp rolls - since you're going to use trays, just cut them in half - no need for a "bottom" - bunch together - light rubber band works on smaller groups. I would expect them to rot/soften quite substantially (I've used paper towel cores....) but without a bottom, one quick zip with a razor knife and "pot be gone" for any that remain too solid.
alum foil trays - these you will not be able to move without some care / support underneath.
depending on how acid your water is, minor caution about "gosh, it's leaking" - so not on top of anything really valuable (g)
I save / reuse those cute little plastic cells for sprouting, then move to 4" pots. stuff like tomatoes you're likely to keep longer than z6, a 6-8" pot might work out better.
wicking due to pots - yup - less a problem with paper than for example peat - but do bury / tear off the pot tops.
peas - not much to be gained by starting these indoors, frankly. soak the pea seed overnight in tepid water before planting - they'll sprout in 2-3 days outdoors/direct seeded. if you're planting really early in z4a - definitely chilly land - cover the pea patch with clear poly for some added solar heat gain.
peas dislike having the roots disturbed - hence the gutter trick DoubleDog mentioned. I used alum flashing cut to 24" lengths & bent into a V a couple years - found it was not worth the trouble; your mileage may vary.
beets - similar experience - if planted in full sun they sprout/grow rapidly.
leeks I do two seeds per egg cell in dozen/18 count paperboard trays. leeks are slow growers - I start mine in Jan - one of the first things. 5-6" depth is not needed. plant out in a trench or hill up as they grow for blanching.
fertilizer - only after true leaves; half strength; too much is much too worse than too little.
using compost + lighteners, you will not need to fertilize for a much longer time than if using other types of soil-less mixes.
you've got some good basics going - some odd-ball thoughts in no particular order
damping off - the bigger the pot the more water it holds the bigger the damping off danger
if damping off has been a problem before, consider using sterile starting mix
that's a lot of plants to put under one 4 ft of light . . . you may need more fixtures
tp rolls - since you're going to use trays, just cut them in half - no need for a "bottom" - bunch together - light rubber band works on smaller groups. I would expect them to rot/soften quite substantially (I've used paper towel cores....) but without a bottom, one quick zip with a razor knife and "pot be gone" for any that remain too solid.
alum foil trays - these you will not be able to move without some care / support underneath.
depending on how acid your water is, minor caution about "gosh, it's leaking" - so not on top of anything really valuable (g)
I save / reuse those cute little plastic cells for sprouting, then move to 4" pots. stuff like tomatoes you're likely to keep longer than z6, a 6-8" pot might work out better.
wicking due to pots - yup - less a problem with paper than for example peat - but do bury / tear off the pot tops.
peas - not much to be gained by starting these indoors, frankly. soak the pea seed overnight in tepid water before planting - they'll sprout in 2-3 days outdoors/direct seeded. if you're planting really early in z4a - definitely chilly land - cover the pea patch with clear poly for some added solar heat gain.
peas dislike having the roots disturbed - hence the gutter trick DoubleDog mentioned. I used alum flashing cut to 24" lengths & bent into a V a couple years - found it was not worth the trouble; your mileage may vary.
beets - similar experience - if planted in full sun they sprout/grow rapidly.
leeks I do two seeds per egg cell in dozen/18 count paperboard trays. leeks are slow growers - I start mine in Jan - one of the first things. 5-6" depth is not needed. plant out in a trench or hill up as they grow for blanching.
fertilizer - only after true leaves; half strength; too much is much too worse than too little.
using compost + lighteners, you will not need to fertilize for a much longer time than if using other types of soil-less mixes.
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DLup
- Full Member
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- Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:46 am
- Location: USDA 4a, Minneapolis, MN, USA
Hi Dillbert,
Thanks for the odd-ball thoughts! A few replies...
tp rolls-I did not think about leaving them open on a tray, which makes sense. Might be a little more awkward filling, but not much. Would certainly save time.
trays-HA! Of course. That makes sense and I had not thought the implications of only using flimsy aluminum trays. Water should not be a problem, but I will need some means for transportation. I spose I have plenty of time to figure on that.
peas and beets-These were two of my epic failures at germination last year, which is why I am thinking of trying to start in doors. My raised bed mix was too organic rich and I think retained so much moisture early in the season before it got hot that I think the peas and beets just kept rotting. I replanted these three times over and had essentially no success where I had before...Very frustrating. I figure it won't be *too* much extra effort to try starting indoors even if I should not have to do so.
leeks-I might have to get started even earlier than I planned!
I am thinking I will some trial runs earlier in the winter to see what works and how it will all go.
Thanks again!
Thanks for the odd-ball thoughts! A few replies...
tp rolls-I did not think about leaving them open on a tray, which makes sense. Might be a little more awkward filling, but not much. Would certainly save time.
trays-HA! Of course. That makes sense and I had not thought the implications of only using flimsy aluminum trays. Water should not be a problem, but I will need some means for transportation. I spose I have plenty of time to figure on that.
peas and beets-These were two of my epic failures at germination last year, which is why I am thinking of trying to start in doors. My raised bed mix was too organic rich and I think retained so much moisture early in the season before it got hot that I think the peas and beets just kept rotting. I replanted these three times over and had essentially no success where I had before...Very frustrating. I figure it won't be *too* much extra effort to try starting indoors even if I should not have to do so.
leeks-I might have to get started even earlier than I planned!
I am thinking I will some trial runs earlier in the winter to see what works and how it will all go.
Thanks again!
-
DLup
- Full Member
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:46 am
- Location: USDA 4a, Minneapolis, MN, USA
Hi Dillbert,
Thanks for the odd-ball thoughts! A few replies...
tp rolls-I did not think about leaving them open on a tray, which makes sense. Might be a little more awkward filling, but not much. Would certainly save time.
trays-HA! Of course. That makes sense and I had not thought the implications of only using flimsy aluminum trays. Water should not be a problem, but I will need some means for transportation. I spose I have plenty of time to figure on that.
peas and beets-These were two of my epic failures at germination last year, which is why I am thinking of trying to start in doors. My raised bed mix was too organic rich and I think retained so much moisture early in the season before it got hot that I think the peas and beets just kept rotting. I replanted these three times over and had essentially no success where I had before...Very frustrating. I figure it won't be *too* much extra effort to try starting indoors even if I should not have to do so.
leeks-I might have to get started even earlier than I planned!
I am thinking I will some trial runs earlier in the winter to see what works and how it will all go.
Thanks again!
Thanks for the odd-ball thoughts! A few replies...
tp rolls-I did not think about leaving them open on a tray, which makes sense. Might be a little more awkward filling, but not much. Would certainly save time.
trays-HA! Of course. That makes sense and I had not thought the implications of only using flimsy aluminum trays. Water should not be a problem, but I will need some means for transportation. I spose I have plenty of time to figure on that.
peas and beets-These were two of my epic failures at germination last year, which is why I am thinking of trying to start in doors. My raised bed mix was too organic rich and I think retained so much moisture early in the season before it got hot that I think the peas and beets just kept rotting. I replanted these three times over and had essentially no success where I had before...Very frustrating. I figure it won't be *too* much extra effort to try starting indoors even if I should not have to do so.
leeks-I might have to get started even earlier than I planned!
I am thinking I will some trial runs earlier in the winter to see what works and how it will all go.
Thanks again!
-
DLup
- Full Member
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:46 am
- Location: USDA 4a, Minneapolis, MN, USA
Not sure why the double post, but I do apologize.
Marlingardener, I think your post came in while I was replying to Dillbert. I like the idea of reusing those trays but we don't actually end up with that many of them, so I am not sure they will work as a general solution.
DDF-Thanks for the post on using gutters! I read that thread some time before and thought about using gutter sections under bed-sized cloches (really little greenhouses) as a way to start, but I don't think that will happen next year yet!
David
Marlingardener, I think your post came in while I was replying to Dillbert. I like the idea of reusing those trays but we don't actually end up with that many of them, so I am not sure they will work as a general solution.
DDF-Thanks for the post on using gutters! I read that thread some time before and thought about using gutter sections under bed-sized cloches (really little greenhouses) as a way to start, but I don't think that will happen next year yet!
David
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DLup
- Full Member
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:46 am
- Location: USDA 4a, Minneapolis, MN, USA
Not sure why the double post, but I do apologize.
Marlingardener, I think your post came in while I was replying to Dillbert. I like the idea of reusing those trays but we don't actually end up with that many of them, so I am not sure they will work as a general solution.
DDF-Thanks for the post on using gutters! I read that thread some time before and thought about using gutter sections under bed-sized cloches (really little greenhouses) as a way to start, but I don't think that will happen next year yet!
David
Marlingardener, I think your post came in while I was replying to Dillbert. I like the idea of reusing those trays but we don't actually end up with that many of them, so I am not sure they will work as a general solution.
DDF-Thanks for the post on using gutters! I read that thread some time before and thought about using gutter sections under bed-sized cloches (really little greenhouses) as a way to start, but I don't think that will happen next year yet!
David
-
applestar
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- Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M(11/B)
Be sure to get the seed starting and planting out timing right. Some cooler weather crops, I believe you will be able to grow throughout the season unlike some of us that have too hot summer weather.As for plants, I plan to start the following with the number of plant outs in parentheses: arugula (9), cauliflower (2), collards (2), cucumber (4), eggplant (2), kale (2), leeks (27), lettuce (13), melon (2), peppers (5), pumpkin (2), spinach (16), chard (6), tomato (4), zucchini (1).
I am also considering starting beets and peas.
Note that there are crops that you really should be able to direct seed unless you really want to achieve earlier/longer harvest.
I would group these into cool weather and warm weather crops
(start seeds extra early 8-10 weeks before last frost) eggplant, peppers, cauliflower, leeks
(start seeds early 6-8 weeks before last frost) tomato, Arugula, collards, kale, lettuce, spinach, chard
(direct seed extra early 6 weeks before last frost) Arugula, collards, kale, lettuce, peas, spinach, chard
(direct seed early 4 weeks before last frost) beets, (continue to succession direct sow after two weeks) Arugula, collards, kale, lettuce, peas, spinach, chard, beets
(plant out extra early 3-4 weeks before last frost) Arugula, collards, kale, lettuce, leeks, spinach, chard
(start seeds 3-4 weeks before last frost) pumpkin
(plant out cauliflower some time around here -- I think)
(start seeds 2 weeks before last frost) cucumber, melon, zucchini
(direct seed 1 week before last frost) pumpkin
(plant out on or after last avg frost) tomato, pumpkin
(plant out 1 week or more after last avg frost) peppers (or direct sow zucchini)
(plant out 2 weeks or more after last avg frost) eggplants, cucumber, melon, zucchini (or direct sow melon, cucumber)
...I think that looks about right. Be sure to buy faster maturing varieties that will be ready to harvest within your shorter growing season.
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rainbowgardener
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Agree with applestar, that timing is very important. You have quite a mix of cool season and warm season stuff there:
arugula (9), cauliflower (2), collards (2), cucumber (4), eggplant (2), kale (2), leeks (27), lettuce (13), melon (2), peppers (5), pumpkin (2), spinach (16), chard (6), tomato (4), zucchini (1).
cool season: arugula, cauliflower, collards, kale, leeks, lettuce, spinach, chard
warm season: everything else.
The greens I usually direct seed in my garden as soon as the ground can be worked. The chard is cool season and warm season. That is, it can be planted as early as the lettuce and spinach, but it will keep growing all through the summer and fall, so you can't plan on replacing it with something else. The spinach will be over and done quite early, so you can plant warm season things where it was.
I don't grow cauliflower, but I do grow broccoli which is very similar. I start my broccoli indoors under lights in January to transplant into the garden in March (a month before my average last frost date, it is quite cold hardy and frost tolerant, once hardened off).
Peppers are slow growing, so I start them indoors, 10-12 weeks ahead of the last frost date. Tomatoes can be started 8 - 10 weeks ahead of frost date. The melons, squash, cucumber are warmest of warm season crops. They don't go in the ground until not only is frost date passed, but the ground has warmed up some, at least a couple weeks after last frost date. And they are very fast growers. Lots of people just direct seed them in the ground. I start mine indoors, but not more than two weeks ahead of last frost date. Sometimes I just plant them indoors on the last frost date.
Best Wishes with your new endeavors!
arugula (9), cauliflower (2), collards (2), cucumber (4), eggplant (2), kale (2), leeks (27), lettuce (13), melon (2), peppers (5), pumpkin (2), spinach (16), chard (6), tomato (4), zucchini (1).
cool season: arugula, cauliflower, collards, kale, leeks, lettuce, spinach, chard
warm season: everything else.
The greens I usually direct seed in my garden as soon as the ground can be worked. The chard is cool season and warm season. That is, it can be planted as early as the lettuce and spinach, but it will keep growing all through the summer and fall, so you can't plan on replacing it with something else. The spinach will be over and done quite early, so you can plant warm season things where it was.
I don't grow cauliflower, but I do grow broccoli which is very similar. I start my broccoli indoors under lights in January to transplant into the garden in March (a month before my average last frost date, it is quite cold hardy and frost tolerant, once hardened off).
Peppers are slow growing, so I start them indoors, 10-12 weeks ahead of the last frost date. Tomatoes can be started 8 - 10 weeks ahead of frost date. The melons, squash, cucumber are warmest of warm season crops. They don't go in the ground until not only is frost date passed, but the ground has warmed up some, at least a couple weeks after last frost date. And they are very fast growers. Lots of people just direct seed them in the ground. I start mine indoors, but not more than two weeks ahead of last frost date. Sometimes I just plant them indoors on the last frost date.
Best Wishes with your new endeavors!
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DLup
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Hi applestar and rainbowgardener-
I have been meaning to reply to you both with thanks for your comments, but the end of the semester and then the holiday have kept me busy. So, thanks for your input and support! I am hoping to get set up in the next week or two and do some tests, so we'll see!
DLup
I have been meaning to reply to you both with thanks for your comments, but the end of the semester and then the holiday have kept me busy. So, thanks for your input and support! I am hoping to get set up in the next week or two and do some tests, so we'll see!
DLup