Seed starting basics for newbies

[rainbowgardener]

Most of the summer veggies germinate considerably faster with them (like 4 days vs 2 wks), with considerably higher germination percentage. Sometimes I have taken some seedlings off the heat mats to make room for other seeds and left some of their "litter mates" on the mats. The ones on the mats grow about 50% faster, without being leggy. To me it is the difference between success or not. Generally the people who write in to say my seedlings have been sitting there sprouted for a month but still don't have true leaves, are not using heat mats.

Your fluorescent tubes provide light, but not heat.

[snorkel4u]

Hi Rainbowgardener,

I am confused after reading from various sources so wanted to know your word on the same.
Do we need NPK in diluted ratios for seed germination? Also also if is it okay to apply the same NPK in diluted form for seedlings with cotyledons (no true leaves yet)?

Some sites suggest, start using fertlizers only after true roots have developed. While some say it can be used in soluble form, diluted well, for sowing seeds as well.

Also does this vary from plant to plant? IN the current context, I am talking about Balsam, Zinnia, Hybrid Marigold, Coreopsis, Russian Sunflower and Celosia Dwarf mix. These are what I have sowed seeds of.

Also, if your answer is YES, what's the ratio in which they could be used.

Please advise.

[rainbowgardener]

Do not NEED any fertilizers for seed germination, the seed provides everything that is needed.

The question is does it harm them. I don't use any of the added ferts like that, but I start all my seeds in potting soil with Miracle Gro in it. The reason for that is that once they have true leaves, they do need nutrients and will rapidly start to fail without them. Seed starting mixes are sterile and provide nothing. So at that point there's an issue of timing, and either having to transplant baby seedlings in a rush into potting soil or start adding ferts as you describe. And of course not all the seeds germinate at the same time, not even all the seeds of one variety, identical seeds planted identically. So you have some seeds sprouted and needing nutrients and some seeds not sprouted yet.

I just plant them all the in the MG potting soil. It's easy, cheap, and convenient. I don't use any other ferts, so I can't advise on all that ratio stuff. They don't NEED the MG initially to germinate or get started, but that I can tell it doesn't seem to hurt them, and then the nutrients are there waiting for when the little plant does need them.

Incidentally, there are cotyledons/ seed leaves and then true leaves. I never heard of any thing called true roots. All roots are "true" so they are just roots.

Don't know if this helps any. Perhaps someone that uses your kind of ferts can join in.

[snorkel4u]

Hi RG,

Update to from where I started - I was able to get nice plants of Japanese Maple, Caladiums, Indian Basil and they were doing fine.

I had to go on Vacation and moved the plants to my friends house, but monkeys attached his balcony, yes monkeys

They chewed away the spinach seedlings, the sunflower plants, curry leaves, Indian basil, Zinnia, balsam and pretty much everything.

My friend didn't care for them enough, he over watered them and hence mostly all are dead.

When I returned back, only Lemongrass and curry leaves were alive. Rest all they had scooped them clean.

Anyways, I started again. I got celled inserts, 2x4 small tray with inserts. Each cell around 3x3 inches and 6 inches deep.

This time I have sown, hybrid chillies, russian sun flower (this grows the fastest), Zinnia and Marmande tomatoes.

I covered the tray but I started seeing fungus on it, so I took it off. Plus now we have got decent rainfall here, so temperature has come down to around 25-30 Degrees C. Although its still quite humid.

The medium was a mix of coco peat + soil + dried cow dung manure.

I wanted to know if I need any special care for any of the above seedlings?

I have also sown Ornamental Cabbage (KALE) and lettuce and Marmande Tomatoes separately.

Tried to search on this forum and google a lot, about growing above but couldn't find much.

Could you help me with any tips that I should keep in mind?
I will be uploading their pictures soon.

[Bluesteel514]

wow, great write up. Lots of information I didn't know. Hopefully will give me better results.

[Betsy Muse]

I wish I'd seen this thread last year. I had my most successful year planting my entire garden with plants I started from seed. I also supplied one friend and my mother with plants for their smaller gardens.

I'm lucky to have a Southern, southern exposure in a large window that spans a small room leading out to our deck, so I have set up some plastic shelves to hold my trays of plants.

A lot of my success last year was luck (I know b/c I have no clue why last year was so different from the previous years.) so I will use this thread to guide me along as I try to repeat starting my garden off indoors.

I had 32 pepper plants (variety of sweet & hot) and 34 tomato plants (3 varieties) and I would have never been able to afford that many plants.

[ElizabethB]

Rainbow - and all of you thanks so much for the great info Since I am starting from seed for the first time in a very long time I have been avidily reading everyting that all of you post. I will be starting my seeds on the patio with lights. Since temps will ocassionally still be getting into the low 40's the idea of heating pads is just what I was missing. Overhead warmth and radient heat from the house won't be enough. The heating pads will do the trick. The tomato varieties are new to me so I have to do some more research on germination temps. Thanks one and all. Great post Rainbow.

LOVE this forum

[ElizabethB]

I was planning on starting my seeds in 6 packs - should I start them in 4" nursery pots instead? I have plenty of both. Transplanting to the garden will be early to mid March depending on the weather.

Thanks again.

[ReptileAddiction]

I would do the 4 inch pots just because it would mean they would be able to go longer with less disturbances to the roots.

[DoubleDogFarm]

I was planning on starting my seeds in 6 packs - should I start them in 4" nursery pots instead? I have plenty of both. Transplanting to the garden will be early to mid March depending on the weather.

Thanks again.

I start most of my seedlings in 1020 open flats. Then prick and transplant.

If we are talking strictly tomatoes, than up potting many times is how I like doing them. Start them out in open trays. Prick and transplant deeper into 4" pots. If they don't sell, I will pull from the 4" and plant deeper into 6" square gallons. Each time planting them right up to the bottom leaves. Progressively enlarging the root system.

Eric

[ReptileAddiction]

I do the same thing except I go straight to the 4 inchers. Then I put them in some larger pot (deeper obviously) then when they outgrow those they go into their permanent location.

[rainbowgardener]

I start mine in the little cells. Transplanting never seems to bother them, in fact the tomatoes benefit from it, because every time I transplant them, I set them deeper, which increases their root system.

Starting them in the little cells in mainly a space saver. I have 16 linear feet of lights, but that is not a lot for how many plants I start from seed and space is at a premium. And I only run two heat mats. I don't want to add more, because I already feel like this operation sucks a lot of power. I crowd everything in to the little cells. After they have sprouted and have a pair of true leaves, they get moved off the heat mats, in to their own individual cells. When they outgrow those, they get moved into the 4" pots. I don't up pot after that, just put them in the ground or the large containers they will live in.

[Betsy Muse]

I agree with those who start in 4 inch pots. My location is quite warm from the large southern exposure window and my seedlings seem to outgrow the little cells much too quickly.

Last year the plants I started in pots were much healthier because (I'm assuming) I didn't have to transplant them as quickly and they weren't transplanted as many times.

[rainbowgardener]

I don't know. Most of my plants get transplanted three times: From crowded in the cells (saving room on the heat mats) to one per cell, to 4" pots, to the ground or permanent residence. They seem to respond well to transplanting, showing a growth spurt each time.

Most of what you will grow needs the bottom heat for good germinating. It seems like if you try to start things spaced out nicely in 4" pots, you will need A LOT of heat mats, which are big power suckers. It's why I start things so crowded. I run 2 heating pads 24/7 from some time in Jan to about May 1. I already feel bad about how much energy my seed starting operation uses, I don't want to add more.

[Aida]

Hi rainbowgardener!

I have three questions:

1. Is it recommended to start ALL seeds in containers? I would really prefer to start my seeds in containers, as it seems that everytime the little seed packet says "start outdoors" I dig up and prepare a huge patch, only to have a handful even sprout.

2. Are the lights necessary? Can I just get any old fluroscent tubes at a hardware store? How long do they need to stay under these lights, usually?(I'm interested in sunflowers, strawberries, tomatoes, radishes)
I'm asking because I have no garage or attic to set up a whole chain-pulled light system, so I would have to resort to keeping the containers in my room, the lights propped up on books or whatever.

3. I'm really confused when it comes to compost, blood meal, bone meal, fertilizers, etc. I've never used anything like that, I don't have a compost pile, and no time to start one(I need to plant!). Do you have any articles explaining this? In terms of seed starting, can I buy these things at a hardware store? How much of what in each container?(I think I'll use yoghurt cups and nothing much bigger, and then transplant outside once they outgrow those)

Jeez louise, I'm sorry for bombarding you with all of this. If anyone else can answer, please do!
Thanks a ton in advance.

[rainbowgardener]

Hi rainbowgardener!

I have three questions:

1. Is it recommended to start ALL seeds in containers? I would really prefer to start my seeds in containers, as it seems that everytime the little seed packet says "start outdoors" I dig up and prepare a huge patch, only to have a handful even sprout.

2. Are the lights necessary? Can I just get any old fluroscent tubes at a hardware store? How long do they need to stay under these lights, usually?(I'm interested in sunflowers, strawberries, tomatoes, radishes)
I'm asking because I have no garage or attic to set up a whole chain-pulled light system, so I would have to resort to keeping the containers in my room, the lights propped up on books or whatever.

3. I'm really confused when it comes to compost, blood meal, bone meal, fertilizers, etc. I've never used anything like that, I don't have a compost pile, and no time to start one(I need to plant!). Do you have any articles explaining this? In terms of seed starting, can I buy these things at a hardware store? How much of what in each container?(I think I'll use yoghurt cups and nothing much bigger, and then transplant outside once they outgrow those)

Jeez louise, I'm sorry for bombarding you with all of this. If anyone else can answer, please do!
Thanks a ton in advance.

If you read back starting at the beginning of this thread, some of these questions have already been answered, but I'll try again.

1. Not all seed. It depends on what. Some things like carrots and root crops generally, do not transplant well and really need to be direct seeded in the ground. Some things that are quick growing and cold tolerant, like lettuce, there's not a whole lot of advantage to starting them indoors (and a little disadvantage in having to harden them off), so they typically are direct seeded, but can be started indoors if you want to. Advantage of starting indoors is that they can be babied more, more protection, perfect conditions.

2. Some supplemental light is pretty much necessary. This can be ordinary shop lights with fluorescent tubes. But the lights need to be just a couple inches over the plants. "sunflowers, strawberries, tomatoes, radishes" Strawberries are not started from seed, they are very difficult that way. Once danger of frost is past, look in garden stores or on line and buy plants. They are very cheap, like 25 plants for $12 and you only ever have to buy them once. Radishes are one of those root crops that you really need to plant directly in the ground. They are very fast and easy that way. Sunflowers are quick growing and don't really need to be started indoors, but can be. Tomatoes and peppers are the most commonly indoor started. They will end up being indoors under the lights, 8 - 10 weeks, depending on your climate. Your lighting set up doesn't need to take up very much room. If you have a spare closet somewhere, that works great as a little seed starting room.

3. Compost, blood meal, etc are soil additives for outdoors. For indoors all you need is basic potting soil with Miracle Gro already in it (which is the commonest way potting soil is sold).

[Aida]

Ok, thank you!

I'll read back more carefully to see the other answers as well.

[DoubleDogFarm]

For indoors all you need is basic potting soil with Miracle Gro already in it (which is the commonest way potting soil is sold).

Blah!

Eric

[rainbowgardener]

I do understand... I don't use the MG anywhere else, only for indoor seed starting and I am working on quitting that and making my own potting soil.

But for beginners, it really is the easiest and most fool proof, rather than trying to mess around with anything else for indoor seed starting, trying to figure out what to add when and how. I never recommend synthetics for outdoor/garden use.

[DoubleDogFarm]

I do understand... I don't use the MG anywhere else, only for indoor seed starting and I am working on quitting that and making my own potting soil.

But for beginners, it really is the easiest and most fool proof, rather than trying to mess around with anything else for indoor seed starting, trying to figure out what to add when and how. I never recommend synthetics for outdoor/garden use.

Rainbow, Just a little tease. It is good advice, but I'm pretty sure there are seed starting mixes, near everyone, without synthetic fertilizers.

Rainbow, I like this persons idea. Maybe you should give it try.

I also use my worm bin leachate for watering plants with. I just suck it out of the drip tray with a turkey baster and put it in the watering can and add water. I may not be diluting it quite as much as applestar, something like roughly 1 part leachate to 4 parts water. I just use it right away, so don't bother aerating.

I know it is not worm casting tea, but it is enriched organic stuff. I have to get it out of the tray anyway, so the tray doesn't overflow. So why not put it on my plants? Right now it is just house plants. Later it will be my indoor seedlings.

Eric

[rainbowgardener]

[Jardin du Fort]

I have some 1/2" thick cedar left over from the fence, and have been planning on using it to make some seed flats. I know that 3" and 6" (?) are "standard" depths, but was wondering what the typical dimensions of a wood seed flat are? 10" x 20" 12" x 18" does it matter?

[rainbowgardener]

It only matters in that it fits your space/equipment. I use 10x20" trays, because the cell inserts fit in them, the 3.5" square pots fit evenly in them. 20" is the depth of my counter that they sit on. And two 2-tube fluorescent shop lights run crosswise across them cover the whole flat with light.

You might have other equipment/space constraints.

[applestar]

One aspect you might consider is the weight of moistened soil mix+wood that has absorbed moisture+the largest size plants growing in them. Would you be able to lift them/move them around easily? You are less likely to want to work with them if they take effort to do so.

The other is if you are using lights, the best configuration seems to be 4 tubes across the rectangular flats laid perpendicular to the direction of the tubes, but if you are making custom sizes, you could maybe make 1/2 the standard 1020 size.

You might also want to consider how many would neatly fit on the grow shelf or bench/table you will be using. Remember this might be related to the weight question -- I.e. existing surfaces or new surfaces that can support the weight without bowing, etc that may interfere with even watering.

ALSO, it's a coincidence that you mentioned using fence pickets because I recently received soil block makers as a gift and was thinking about making trays to hold the blocks out of them. If you ever consider soil blocks, you'll want sizes that would accomodate the sizes of your blocks neatly and will want one of the sides to be removable, though if you are handy, you may just make custom trays separate from seed flats. Wish I had leftover cedar pickets like you though.

[imafan26]

I actually start my seed outdoors but because single cells take up too much space on my bench,(some cells always die off), I grow in compots (community pots).
I like to use 4 or six inch pots or recycled tofu containers. It is best for me to have a large surface area but only 2-3 inches deep.
I use moistened peatlite with a little osmocote added. Peat is hard to wet so it is important that the media be moistened first. I've also used Miracle grow potting soil. It works but is more expensive than peatlite. I sometimes will use recycled potting mix.
I put anywhere from 4 (cucumber) to 15 (pepper, mesclun) or more (green onions) in a pot.
The pot goes out on an open bench on trays. I use a second tray as a cover for pepper seeds. The doves will pick the seeds out of the pots if I don't. I water the bench once a day unless it rains hard enough.
Once the plants have sprouted and have true leaves I transplant to larger pots or to the ground.[/b]

[LindaD]

Thanks for the good seed starting info. I enjoyed reading it and alwys learn something new. The picture shows a good, organized setup...Think I should strive for that and clean up my work area before starting seeds this week...happy germinating!
p.s must clean up my pots well inadvance and am trying out coir pots for the first time!

[lisbonslady]

Great info, thanks... this is my first year really starting seeds and I'm excited but it seems I have already made some choices that are not ideal.

I have a heat pad and a plastic tray but I have small peat pots as I thought they would work better to transplant... but they are small, I can fit 50 cells on the tray... and I am starting tomatoes and peppers to plant outdoors in 6 weeks and I am guessing they will need to be transplanted before then.

A few questions - I don't have a dome but I did cover them with plastic wrap until they sprout - is that a good thing to do? The plastic is almost touching the soil and I am hoping that's ok...

Since I have the peat pots is mold the major concern when I bottom water? Anything else I should be careful with with them?

Also I did use seed starting mix - how would I fertilize later when they have true leaves - with something diluted in the water?

oh boy, so much to learn! Thanks in advance

[rainbowgardener]

We have a whole thread going in this section https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/v ... 3&start=30
which started with some other seed starting issues and evolved into people's difficulty with peat pots.

Linda - I am now using coconut coir in my homemade potting soil to replace peat. Environmentally it is more sustainable, being grown, rather than mining a fossil resource. But as a pot, I would think all the problems that apply to peat pots would apply to coir ones.

The major concern with peat (and probably coir) pots is all the issues about managing water. I really don't think you can bottom water with them, not only will they get moldy, they will keep the water and your soil may not get properly moist. If you can get the soil moist enough, either bottom or top watering, the peat pots don't let it dry out as it needs to. Eventually if the pot starts drying, it will suck the water away from the plants.

And if you got them thinking you could just transplant seedlings IN the pots and they will biodegrade, DON'T do it. The pots don't biodegrade in any reasonable time to help the seedlings and the roots will be smothered in there. You have to take the seedlings out of the peat pots. Usually the only way to do that is to tear/peel the pots off, because the roots will have grown in to them.

Honestly if you just started, I would start over with plastic. Starting out I use the little cells, 72 cells to a 1020 tray

https://www.greenhousemegastore.com/prod ... ys-inserts

If you read the beginning of this thread, I do not use humidity domes at all. They may (?) benefit some seeds, but they aren't necessary and they quickly become a liability. And it just aggravates all the moisture problems of the peat pots. I would just remove the plastic and you HAVE to remove it as soon as the first seeds sprout, which means you have to watch all the time to see when that is. Sometimes seeds sprout overnight.

The reason they sell seed starting mix (other than to get $$ out of your pocket) is that seeds don't need any fertility to germinate and get started. But once your seedlings have their true leaves, they will need some kind of nutrients. What you use for that depends on your philosophy - it could be VERY dilute miracle grow type stuff, it could be commercial organic fertilizer, it could be fish emulsion if you don't have cats in the house, it could be AACT compost tea (we have a whole huge Sticky thread on that in the compost section) . But basically yes, something in the water, until you transplant in to regular potting mix that does have nutrients.

Best Wishes and next time, come here first! It makes me mad that these days there's this whole big seed starting industry that exists to sell people things they don't need (fancy expensive seed starting kits with humidity domes) that often (peat pots) are actively injurious to growing seeds.

[MissChris]

Awsome thread, thanks for all the tips. This is my first year starting seeds and I think the only thing I did right was the grow lights lol.
My tomatoes just sprouted a few days ago, so I am going to dig out the heating pads in hopes that they don't get leggy like the broccoli is!

[rainbowgardener]

Leggy is not about heat, it is about light. The heat is most important for germination. Once well started, they can do without it (though they will continue to grow faster with more warmth for awhile). Leggy is they are not getting enough light, so they are stretching to try to find some.

[digitS']

You can actually slow down the legginess by lowering the heat.

It can almost be: Less light - less warmth. More light - more warmth.

Of course, less warmth will slow growth but if the plant doesn't have enough light to make good growth, it is better to have growth slowed than a weak plant.

Steve

[MissChris]

Thanks for the heating tips! The brocoli was most likely because I didn't have the light low enough. I now have the light right down on them and the plants propped up, they fall over if not propped
So are they able to be saved do you think or goners? They just started get their sets of true leaves and were started about 3 weeks ago

[rainbowgardener]

Falling over means they are not doing well at all. It could be damping off, if they are a little bit pinched in at the base of the stem and lying flat. In tha case they are definitely goners.

Or it could be that they are just really really leggy, so spindly that they can't support themselves. In that case they might possibly be saved. But if they were planted three weeks ago and are just now starting to get true leaves, they aren't growing very well. My broccoli germinated in less than three days and got true leaves a week or so after that.

You might read back through this thread from the beginning and start fresh, now that you know a little more...

But honestly, in my part of Ohio it will be time to put the broccoli plants in the ground any day now, as soon as the weather breaks a little. You might just buy yourself some broccoli plants from the nursery and focus on keeping your tomato babies happy. They have a lot more time before they might be going out.

[MissChris]

That is true. I am hoping once we get thru the snow storm tomorrow that we would finally be done with winter! Thanks for the advice!
I don't believe the broccoli is dampening, I just don't think I had the lights low enough when I started them. I think I will keep nursing them until its time to plant and see what they look like. Thanks again=)

[jlazanich]

Just wanted to say thanks all for the great information! It has really been helpful!

[rydia131]

Nice write up but I respectfully disagree with you on the seed starting kits with the domes being seed killers. I have used them now several times and have had nothing but success. I agree with removing the lids once a sprout appears but that is told in the directions. As a new gardener, if I can have success with these I don't think they are an item to avoid like you stated.

[tenderloingardener]

Wow. It must be nice to have all that room and equipment. . I cannot afford any of this stuff, and even if I could my "apartment" is way too small to for it. I am a ghetto farmer, making use of a ledge that runs around my building that gets from 4-6 hours of sun a day, and a fire escape that gets less. When say budget, I mean BUDGET.

My question is, how bad did I screw up by sowing the thyme in the same "seed flat" by which I mean a recycled plastic food container into which I cut drainage holes, with the basil? As soon as I did it I thought, UH OH. Because it seems that thyme likes a dryer atmosphere than the good old basil which never fails me, but I'm hoping that since thyme comes up more slowly than basil (in 7 days I've already got basil seedlings) I will have the basil moved out by the thyme (I couldn't resist) the slower ones sprout and the water content needs to be cut back...foolish hope???

What do you experts think? Have I already killed the thyme seeds by keeping them in a nice damp basil environment or is my "plan B" which is more like a hope and a prayer, going to work???

Thank you.

[DoubleDogFarm]

Nice write up but I respectfully disagree with you on the seed starting kits with the domes being seed killers. I have used them now several times and have had nothing but success. I agree with removing the lids once a sprout appears but that is told in the directions. As a new gardener, if I can have success with these I don't think they are an item to avoid like you stated.

It's ok to disagree. I don't agree with everything stated here. These tips and tricks are based on Rainbow's experience and not set in concrete. What works for you is fine. If the starting kit works, continue using them. Based on sales alone, one would think they work. If they didn't sell the stores would not stock them.

Eric

[rainbowgardener]

It is clearly possible to have success with them. It is also very easy not to get the dome lifted in time and do your seedlings in from damping off. And since it is never true that all your seeds sprout at the same time, you have to lift it, as you said, as soon as the first seeds sprout, which means it isn't in place for all the others.

So I don't see the point of it, since all the seeds sprout just fine without domes.

But sure, always glad to hear everyone's opinions and experiences

[tenderloingardener]

Okay. This is likely a really stupid question. I went to buy a clamp light to use-a friend of mine gave us an aquarium, so I thought-I could make a germinating terrarium from it. Most of the bulbs in San Francisco (Home of the Progressive Mafia ) are fluorescent. You can only get old filament bulbs for special kinds of lights.

Well, I was looking in a thrift store and found an actual spot light. Like a stage light. Actually, there were several of them, but I just got one. The one with the still working very high wattage expensive bulb in it. Will this work? It's a filament bulb. (SSSH. Don't tell anyone! The lighting cops will be at my home in a twinkle)

So, it's not fluorescent. But it's warm. Must one use a fluorescent light, and if so, why? This is a a full spectrum light, so the red? (It's been a while since college) light waves are there. The heat is there-it's like a miniature sun. In fact, had to take the "spot" part off because it was too focused and would have fried anything in it's path.

I can put in a 75 watt bulb if it has to be fluorescent, but I'm wondering why a full spectrum light wouldn't work...

Thanks for putting up with the newbie on a major budget!