Propagation Sweat Chamber

[floridahillnursery]

Hello Eric, thats a sweet greenhouse setup. I bet your getting itchy for spring...

[DoubleDogFarm]

FHN,

Very itchy at least the snow is gone!

Did you look through this thread? Any ideas / suggestions?

Eric

[floridahillnursery]

Man Eric, it looks like you have it going on. I wouldnt change a thing.

[DoubleDogFarm]

FHN,

Even though I'm not good at describing detail on projects and my grammar is poor, I like reading detail on others projects. So floridahillnursery stay technical, I learn more.

Try not to be comfortably numb, Eric

[floridahillnursery]

Thanks, When it comes to gardening I know no other way.

[soil]

Built mine today, went with making it longer than tall, the stacking of too many trays last year made for poor airflow. I can fit 8 trays at a time single layer, if I want I can double it to 16 and still have room for proper airflow. And this way they get more light along with the warmth. Should be fine with eight 200 cell trays. 1600 plants at a go every few weeks.

I made this years version for under 20$ went with a piece of plastic if it sucks next year is glass for sure. What cost most was the outdoor rube light that cost 12$. For those starting a good number of plants, starting plants for sale, or those just wanting a head start in the cold late winter days. This is the way to do germination.

[Bobberman]

Made my sweat chamber this past weekend! After many ideas I finally went with two clear shower curtains in the front. They wotked better than I thought and were so clear I could look through and see the boxes! So here is what I did!
++++
In my 12 by 16 solar A frame greenhouse I put the chamber on the north insulated wall! On the angled north wall I have a 2 nch styrofoam insulation! I made a 4 tier shelf with 2 by 3 old storm alum. windows. I had two 50 gallon drums between the 8 foot wide shelf! I used the windows so the light would pass through and hit all the boxes incase I left them in awhile after they emerged!. I did 11 - 15 by 20 styrofoam boxes of new seeds.'
+++
At the bottom shelf I set a 200watt ceramic heater on a timer That would come on for evey other our for a 1/2 hour startinging at 10 pm till 5 am. I have the heater blowing against two small metal pots of water. The water gives some moisture and holds the heat when the heater is not on! As long as I am 45 degrees or higher at night I am happy! Day temp are always 50 to 90!. I am montoring it all the time! I have one flat of tomatoes up n there now! The curtains are on a rod and esy to open! I bought the curtain at Dollar general for $6 each and they are really nice thick clear heavy plastic!

[soil]

just so everyone knows how well this works.

last nights nighttime temp - 29f

sweat chamber temp at nights low - 67f

and I spent less than 20$ on it!

[DoubleDogFarm]

Only made one change to the germination chamber setup. I installed a small fan at the top left corner. I'm hoping this will even out the heat from top to bottom. The fan and heater are connected to the same thermostat.
[img]https://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h300/eric_wa/Double%20Dog%20Farm%20%20Greenhouse%20Propagation/GreenhouseFeb72012001.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h300/eric_wa/Double%20Dog%20Farm%20%20Greenhouse%20Propagation/GreenhouseFeb72012002.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h300/eric_wa/Double%20Dog%20Farm%20%20Greenhouse%20Propagation/GreenhouseFeb72012004.jpg[/img]


Eric

[Bobberman]

Good job very nice. What temp do you keep it! Also with the fan you may need to cover the boxes so they don't dry out with the breeze or is it just a small fan! My swea chamber came out nice with the clear shower curtains for the door! I have about 15 foam flats! I will add more this weekend mostly tomatoes and peppers this week!

[DoubleDogFarm]

Currently the thermostat is set at 80F.

It's a small fan angled at the side wall, not blowing on any of the flats. The bowl of water above the heater is there to keep things humid, but I'll keep an eye on the upper shelves. Last year they did dry out some.

Anyone have thoughts on a 4" pipe the fan could blow down. This may help return the warmest air to the bottom.


Eric

[Bobberman]

Check out that personal ceramic heater at Wal Mart for $11. It blows a little air but its only 200watts and may be a nice alternative to what you are using. The reason is because you can set up two one on each end and only use 200 wats times 2 which is not as much as the gig ones even on low! The heater is tiny about 4 inches high and 3 inches thick!

[DoubleDogFarm]

Interesting.
You would have to do a little calculating. How long does a 1500W heater have to run to keep the cabinet a constant 80f compared (2) 200W heaters. Would the smaller heaters have to run 3.75 times longer? Not sure, maybe once the cabinet is up to temperature the smaller heaters would be more efficient?

Eric

[Bobberman]

You could use 2 or 3 heaters 200 watt and have a more uniform heat with less wasted head and three small fans insede the small eaters! To heat a chamber inclosed bz should not take much heat if its insulated or has a two plastic pannel set up! My heat chamber gets sun during the day right through the plastic shower clear thick curtain! The shower cutains ae about 5 foot square and only cost $6 at dollar general. I may use them for ther things since they are so strong!
++=
Do you need 80 degree heat all the time or could you get away with a hour of 80 degree heat and a half hour of no heat since the dirt will hold the heat for a good while!

[DoubleDogFarm]

Do you need 80 degree heat all the time or could you get away with a hour of 80 degree heat and a half hour of no heat since the dirt will hold the heat for a good while!

This would be a better setup if I purchased the inline thermostat with a soil probe. We really want soil temps not air.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Portable-Low-Temp-Thermostat-Marine-De-icer-/170775342634?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gear&vxp=mtr&hash=item27c300ee2a

Eric

[Bobberman]

Once again the small heater located in three different places will not cause the hot and cold spots like a larger heater! The air movement will also be more unifom! Check those heaters out!

[DoubleDogFarm]

One last change for this years setup. I connected a tube to the fan. Should help even out the heat.
[img]https://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h300/eric_wa/Double%20Dog%20Farm%20%20Greenhouse%20Propagation/GreenhouseFeb72012016.jpg[/img]

Eric

[DoubleDogFarm]

Bumped for Ruffsta

Eric

[soil]

I love my sweat chamber, when people come over and see how big my plants are compared to theirs it blows their mind. hell it even blows my mind how fast they germinate and grow.

I highly recommend anyone starting seeds to build something that provides the same function as Eric's sweat chamber.

a friend is giving me a camera soon so I can take photos of mine soon.

[DoubleDogFarm]

and a camera for Frank aka Bobberman.

Eric

[greenstubbs]

Interesting discussion here. Soil- If I remember right, your up in Pardise, are you in the valley or foothills? As you know the central valley gets mighty toasty and winters are mild. I vary when I start my seeds, I think the earlist I started mine was the end of Jan. but normally it's mid to late Feb. I don't have the luxury of a greenhouse but would sure love one!!! What I have done to get things going is just take some PVC with elbows and whatnots and make a frame that I drape with 6mil plastic weighed down with 2x4's. A colapseable mini greenhouse so to speak. My winter sun isn't real great but where I set it up and when the suns out, it gets mighty toasty in there. And even if we get frost, things are protected, plus the ground gets heated and radiates off at night, don't really know what the lowest low has ever been in there, or the hottest cause on sunny days I open it to keep from cookin in there. I should get a thermometer just for my intell. This year my rads, kohlrobis popped in a day and 1/2, maybe cause my compost has a higher manure content than previous years and a little later start than the past.
Eric- It's kinda hard to tell but couldn't you move that over to the corner and take a 2x4 or something and attach it to the window frame for your rebar so that it would be glass on 3 sides instead of 2, just to give them a bigger light shot? Neat what you got going on so far.

[Ruffsta]

Eric, what do you think about flex watt heat tape and a digital thermostat? possibly a good heat source.. I mean if it can be used to incubate eggs, why not keep soil warm instead of multiple heat mats and thermostats.

I dunno, I thought about it earlier.. figured I'd bring it to the table for discussion.

[soil]

greenstubbs I'm at about 3000ft elevation in the mountains. we get cold winters and hot hot summers.

[greenstubbs]

greenstubbs I'm at about 3000ft elevation in the mountains. we get cold winters and hot hot summers.

Well, if I'm above 100", I'm high. Of course who isn't in this state? LOL... I may get 3-5 frosts a winter.

[soil]

also you don't need a greenhouse to have a sweat chamber.

[DoubleDogFarm]

Eric, what do you think about flex watt heat tape and a digital thermostat? possibly a good heat source.. I mean if it can be used to incubate eggs, why not keep soil warm instead of multiple heat mats and thermostats.

I dunno, I thought about it earlier.. figured I'd bring it to the table for discussion.

If you are looking for something flexable, I would look at soil cables. They have a built in thermostat that keeps the soil about 74*

https://www.territorialseed.com/product/5424/168/?r=LWGBASE

Eric

[Ruffsta]

that's cool... but that wouldn't keep a bunch of pots warm or a grow box warm..

[soil]

I used lights like this.

https://doorgarden.com/02/home-made-bottom-heat-seed-starting

cheap and effective.

[applestar]

I'm enjoying the discussion -- you all make it sound so do-able.... Though I suspect it's a bit beyond my skills.

I did get a lot of ideas and here's my small-scale, indoor as in "in the house" version cobbled together from pre-fabricated components.

[img]https://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll272/applesbucket/ef7d51c1.jpg[/img]
Inexpensive 2-shelf zippered pvc "greenhouse" unit with separately purchased/repurposed lights and a 2' modified 2xT-5 tube light set up on top. I used to have 2 aquarium lights on the bottom but the ancient T-12 fixture bit the dust a couple of weeks go. I think the balast died and it's so corroded I can't remove it to replace it.

One std flat-sized heating mat on the middle shelf. The mass of green are sweet potato sprouts/slips that are tring to take over. Buffalo grass plugs on the bottom are just starting to sprout.

[DoubleDogFarm]

Buffalo Grass, won't you come out tonight, Come out tonight, come out tonight. Buffalo Grass, won't you come out tonight And dance by the light of the moon.

Very nice setup Appledumpling. What is Buffalo grass?

Eric

oh ok, I like.
Buffalograss (Buchloë dactyloides) is the only grass native to North America that is used widely for turf. Fossils discovered in Kansas show that buffalograss existed in that region at least 7 million years ago. It was the principal forage grass for the American bison, hence the name. Buffalograss is well adapted to the drylands of the western prairies and plains, and in recent years new varieties have been developed to extend its natural area of adaptation

[DoubleDogFarm]

I used lights like this.

https://doorgarden.com/02/home-made-bottom-heat-seed-starting

cheap and effective.

Soil, you have me thinking. Do you think the Cool white rope lights would heat and be enough light to prevent leggy plants?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/50-2-Wire-LED-Rope-Light-In-Outdoor-Lighting-Home-Christmas-Decorative-110V-/230710836914?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item35b76ffeb2

I was thinking about build a insulated box under my watering shelf. The North and East walls are already insulated. The watering shelf would be the top of the box. The box would have rebar shelving with the rope lights cable tied to the underside of the shelves. I could also cable tie them to hardware cloth if needed. I'm thinking maybe a total of three shelves plus the bottom, so four layers of 1020 flats. I may even paint the interior white.

The box would be about 10ft long and 2ft deep. Glass front, hopefully recycled windows.

How would one know how many feet of lights per shelf for sufficient heat and light for plants below? Also my watering shelf will travel beyond the top of the box, to the west. Will this pull heat out of the chamber?

Should I draw a picture Apple?

Eric

[LA47]

Great ideas! I'm so glad this was posted. This is something within my knowledge and budget and I'm going to start gathering materials now.

[soil]

I highly recommend it to Those who need strong seedlings during cold weather.


Eric not too sure on the amount of light rope per chamber size. I'd think temps, size, insulation, number of trays all have factors.

I am doing mine different this year. I'll be using a homemade compost hot water system for heating a small bed filled with sand at the bottom of the chamber.

[DoubleDogFarm]

I am doing mine different this year. I'll be using a homemade compost hot water system for heating a small bed filled with sand at the bottom of the chamber.

Ok, I'm listening. How will this work? Does the water circulate through the compost and sand bed?

Eric

[soil]

Look up things on youtube like compost hot shower. Or Jean pain.

The water will go through the tubing in the compost pile, into the greenhouse and into a small bed like your flood seedling thing but filled with sand likea radiant floor. I'm still thinking if I should make it one loop or just freshwater all the time. And some timer system. I've already used the system to produce hot water for an outdoor shower so I know it works well.

And when it's done I get compost.

[DoubleDogFarm]

Look up things on youtube like compost hot shower. Or Jean pain.

The water will go through the tubing in the compost pile, into the greenhouse and into a small bed like your flood seedling thing but filled with sand likea radiant floor. I'm still thinking if I should make it one loop or just freshwater all the time. And some timer system. I've already used the system to produce hot water for an outdoor shower so I know it works well.

And when it's done I get compost.

I have not looked at any Youtube videos, but I'm thinking a closed loop would be better. Why introduce cold water.

I have mixed feelings on the compost for heat idea. Have you looked at Will Allen's videos. Large pile. Do you have a source of large quantities of debris? How will you assemble the pipe and compost? Turning the pile to keep the heat going?

While you are at it, may I suggest adding a solar collector water heater.

Eric

[soil]

I have access to as much compostable material as I want. All of it taint free of chems and other nasties. Hundreds of yards if need be. So that's not an issue.

My thoughts on closed loop will cause lots of built up pressure. I'd like a pressure free system as my compost shower pile put out 110-150f water for 8 weeks then dropped down to about 90f. Closed systems at that temp will be out of the range for most people to make and use safely. I only need this system to work for a few months while my unheated greenhouse temps drop to the low thirties. I can always make another pile a week or so before the previous one cools down. And I can use the water that spits out the other end in a barrel maybe to water the plants in the greenhouse.

As for turning the pile I prefer a controlled anaerobic breakdown of my compost than aerobic, at least in the first stage. This makes a more biodiverse compost and a more nutrient rich compost. Turning compost = oxidation of organic matter and uv sterilization of now turned surface microbes. So in simple terms I never turn my compost anyways because when done right it's superior.

I have multiple solar collectors and solar hit water heaters. The problem is the times I need the heat most the sun isn't shining for says on end. Compost works rain, snow, or sunshine.

There is one way I was thinking of doing it closed loop. Although is have to do more research. Is making the system design a thermosiphon. That would be sweet if it just rubs all by itself.

As always I appreciate your nit picking.

[DoubleDogFarm]

As always I appreciate your nit picking

I'm collaborating, not nit picking. I'm always interested in what you are doing. Working things out in my mind.

I have to go pick up a lawn tractor. Be back soon.

Eric