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PART TWO Ch. 13 How the Soil Food Web Applies to Gardening

SO finally we get to where the tires meet the road (or for those paying close attention, where the rhizosphere meets the soil interface).

You guys have heard me drone on about a lot of this, but the fungal to bacterial ratio is the part that makes the most difference to the plant. We can drone on about NPK and pH all day long, but those are both functions of how the soil is populated, as much or more than any other factor. Jeff gives a nice overview and provides us with Rules 1,2, and 3.

Rule One: Some plants prefer bacteria, some prefer fungal.

Rule Two: Vegetables, annuals, grasses (think herbaceous) want nitrate

Rule Three: Trees and shrubs (think woodies) want ammonium.

So how do we steer soil around with that in mind? What about in betweeners like perennials? What's your take on all this?

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This is the main practical application I have taken from the book. I have tended to use all "browns" as mulch for my veggie beds-- fall leaves and wood chips. Per the book, this would be expected to give me very fungal soil (though perhaps counteracted some by the compost I add).

Obviously I have managed to produce veggies this way. But I'm taking the book on faith (so far), so you may have noted a few times recently when I have suggested to people here that they try a bit greener mulch for their veggies. I am going to do that too. Haven't put mulch down yet, letting the soil warm up still, but fairly soon. I'm thinking grass clippings (I don't have enough lawn, but I can go help rake at my church) and /or some alfalfa hay. Since I've only got three beds of veggies, I could afford to just buy some of what they sell for guinea pigs, at least to add to the grass clippings.

Then we will be back to the old no controlled experiments problem. Does anyone care to make a prediction whether switching from brown mulch to green mulch will make enough difference that I will be able to see it? Without records, which unfortunately I've never kept, it can be hard to tell. And there are so many variables. Last year (brown mulch) was a very cool, wet season. This year (green mulch) is so far, much hotter and dryer season......

I wish I had room to do it with controls, do one bed brown and one green with the same plants. I wish I could stay motivated to keep good records!
Last edited by rainbowgardener on Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Don't forget weeds as mulch as per Ruth and Emilia -- for better appearance, you could put the weeds under the grass clippings.

It's kind of exciting to think of all the different ways our gardens might change -- in appearance as well as cultural practices -- this year. :wink:

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I know; I'm stoked... :D

HG

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I just got done spraying mugwort with EM and putting it in a trash bag with weight on top.

Am I food soilwebbing it? Jeff, if you are reading this, I'd love to hear your take on facultative anaerobes.

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I know Jeff and I have both spent some time listening to Elaine Ingham, and when I asked her about anaerobes and the SFW, she said that that was us selecting which organisms we wanted, not the plants, and certainly not the soil. I was specifically talking about lactobacillus; it was Dr, Ingham that turned the talk to EM or (as she put it) any other man-made biological product.

The implication was that we didn't know enough about the way it all works to make assumptions about what is best; best to let the soil and the associated plants sort it out. This is why she is such a fan of teas and compost; we are not selecting so much as offering an amazing smorgasbord for plants and critters to choose from...

That doesn't mean EM is not a good tool, and a great idea in so many ways, just that we are stepping outside the SFW when we start to pick or choose which biologicals we humans want to work with... who do we think we are, anyway? :lol:

HG

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It didn't occur to her we got the lacto from nature? or that tea also selects for organisms? We manipulate o2 one way or the other. Aeration or silage - pick one or both. I use inoculant as a I can't make proper silage, but brother, fermentation is a big part of nature and a good tool in the took belt. It is the earliest chemical presevation technique for food.

I'm a little confused. Gardening or farming IS a human intervention - just a successful or unsuccessful one for the humans. And the greatest tool a gardner has is observation, followed by trial and error. If we shut off all avenues we don't understand, all we do is preserve yesterday's knowledge.

I've also got a bit of trial and error and observations going, like the effect of bokashi (not to be confused with EM) compost on a hot compost pile. Or the way it accelerates the breaking down of mulch material. Then there is the composting worms attraction factor even if loaded with aliums - which seems unreasonable even when you observe it.

We use lactobacillus the same way in our bodies, and we call that probiotic. It is found in every soil, on every leaf, and in the air. We are as clueless about how that works as we are about the precise workings of compost tea or any other inoculant. But I can tell you this - lactobacilli can make milk that will spoil in a week into a stable, nutritious food that can be kept for long periods, yet readily breaks down in the human digestive tract - much better than raw milk. Is it possible it prepares material for the bacteria we are really after?

And what about PNSB? Where does that fit in? Why does EM make the soil texture better and make plants happy? Seems wiser to say "I don't know but it seems to be used successfully by many" than "I don't get it and it's not my focus so it must be wrong".

I start with observations. Then science or art explains what I see. I don't start with theory and form my observations from there. Am I getting this wrong? Or does getting too invested in a theory create a risk of Intellectual and practical fossilization. There is no universal pancea. Compost tea spread on the entire surface of the earth would be a disaster, just like all the other hubris induced disasters. There is a time and place for all things.

Preparing a bed with EM in the fall, and spring, followed by compost tea or just top dressing has been a succesful technique for me. My casual observations with the microscope will come soon. I don't expect to see disaster.
Last edited by Toil on Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Who said wrong, Toil? Not me. ANd neither myself or Dr. Iingham was discounting the effectiveness of EM as a tool. The point was not to single out any organisms as detrimental, the point was not to single out any organisms...

You are right, any time we insinuate ourselves into the process we are affecting it. The simple act of tilling has massive repercussions on soil biology. I took Dr. Ingham's point to be that by allowing the compost heap, or the plants, or the soil itself to do the majority of the selection process we are adding benefit with the least impact...

EM is rife with Lactobacillus, right? That bacteria has been shown to be a fungal antagonist. So while this might be an excellent tool for a bacterial crop, it might be a poor choice for planting pine trees. Dr. Ingham has recipes for fungal teas and bacterial teas, and balanced teas. She knows full well she is selecting for a specific group of organisms, but she is allowing the culture to select which ones. I believe her exact words were "I get nervous whenever we begin to choose organisms because we often don't understand all the processes". Thins Fukuoka-sensei's wood ash experiment; herealized even that had repercussions he hadn't been able to foresee...

Dr. Ingham has made compost and compost tea a centerpiece of her work because it is allowing Nature to do the selection for the greater part and it leads to higher diversity. Dr. Wilson's work on biodiversity leads me to believe that Dr. Ingham is on the right track. There are certainly places where EM would be more effective than a compost in the short term (I.e., biologically or chemically contaminated or biologically inert soils), but I believe that if you are looking to establish a soil that eventually takes care of itself you should look towards broad diversity rather than specific organisms...

HG

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Hg, I have yet to pickle my soil. That is the implied scenario. Lactobacilli simply can't hang on that long in those numbers. it's my suspicion they mainly make and become food for the soil life. But they are a useful tool in the right circumstance.

Not to mention my em contains actinomycetes, bacillus subtilus (natto anyone?), and others. If they can help, they do. If not, they go away. I have to experience an interruption cause by EM. Try some EM on anaerobic and stinky soil. Bye bye stink!

So how do you figure the yeast survives? Is it antifungal when forced to respire oxygen?

Could compost tea ruin an ecosystem? Spray all year on a sensitive bog and tell me.

I definitely agree that there is a time and place for all things, and lots of places and times. And lots of things. But I do add that shutting down another avenue for emotional or personal economic reasons is dangerous and all too common. It's human nature to do it, and human nature to get annoyed by it.

I would not spray it on mature trees either. Maybe one setting fruit though.

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You are assuming implications where non-exist, Toil. Pickling soil? The only implication is that you do not know what you are doing to your soil and neither do I. Neither does Doc Ingham. We are all guessing... intelligent guesses to be sure, but uninformed by science. Oh, and by the way they are actinobacters now; seems we had that wrong up until fairly recently (showing how badly we understand the mechanics of all this).

You have a microscope now. Can you tell me what sort of fungal hyphae diameters you are seeing in your EM soils and compost? 2-3 microns? Or less than that?

Toil, my point is any time you get attached to a specific bacteria, or fungi, or plant, or gardening technique, you are imposing more of your will on the rest of the system than might actually be merited. We humans have a disturbingly bad track record of poor assumptions based more on whim than on any particular benefit to the biota at large. E.O. Wilson's [url=https://books.google.com/books?id=FzPaB_6Pw4MC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Diversity+Of+Life&source=bl&ots=ELKYkdFKoA&sig=CeoUuJkhqObuV9SUvx1QaUodyik&hl=en&ei=a9XNS8jkBIOClAfFxJGjCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false]Diversity Of Life[/url]speaks volumes to this particular paradigm... I have used EM and found it to be a particularly good tool, like a good hammer. But when all you want to use is the hammer, suddenly everything starts looking like nails... :lol:

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I think Einstein put it best: well, duh!


Ok, not Einstein. But you'll forgive me if I can't square the very reasonable things you just said with what seems to me like an aerobe cult. It's the same attitude people had about NPK in the 50's. Everything else is garbage, science says we are right. Never mind the people all around you getting results that are impossible by your standards.


Ever seen a guy juggle hammers? Seriously though 1:1000 EM and water is not quite a hammer. Maybe one of those hammers clockworkers use. What I mean by not pickling soil is just that - if you take a plot, and spray it with full strength lactobacillus culture, you basically pickle it. That's the point at which you have trashed the place by using EM.


Actinomycetes/bacter - just recently I corrected someone after you corrected me, and I got corrected back! Apparently it is a protist now? I don't know, I just pick a name and use it. Actinobacter sounds too much like tuberculosis (acinetobacter EDIT: this is bad info! tuberculosis is Mycobacterium tuberculosis. acinetobacter is also nasty) to me (compost consumption?).

I'm still trying to find an amoeba (which you predicted), HG. Hyphae is like 2 dvds away. This stuff is hard! But my point was more that I can see the difference between wasteland and compost. And EM treated soil is still full of flagellates, ciliates, microarthropods, and everything else - as much as my compost is. Which is made mostly from EM fermented bokashi, btw.

Every thing has a place in the food web. Pretending that compost tea is just putting back what is there is just foolish. You are altering things. So tell us how it's good, or not good (not you personally HG), but I just can't abide claims that it is natural, and thus defines natural, and thus all else is unnatural and therefore dangerous.


(for anyone reading and getting worried, HG and I both use EM and compost tea (slurry in my case for lack of electricity). we are involved in an intellectual exercise here, not a fight. No need to be alarmed!)
Last edited by Toil on Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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what if I said: I have a natural spray that turns beets into molasses overnight, even if you leave them in the soil.

To me, it seems that is what good applications of f-anaerobes does. It processes stuff for you, and hands it over to the "good guys".

So my mugwort - it goes from invasive perennial most people send to landfill into something I can use. If we follow the "progression" model, this makes even more sense. We start with the more ancient anaerobes, and we hand off to the more recent aerobes.


I have no science to offer, but that's the narrative I use to decide when to apply.

then there is the question of "which anaerobes would you like to live with". I will let you choose between which milk to eat, each glass treated with anaerobes I choose. Do good anaerobes displace bad ones? Occupy territory?

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There is one of the points at which I think EM excels; if it is a matter of an anaerobic soil already (wet, or heavily compacted, frinstance) then we can expect that there will be anaerobic decompostition. Left to her own devices Nature often selects E.coli or fecal coliforms (as they are ridiculously common) and we get unsafe bacterial conditions. By utilizing a safe anaerobe (and I think we all agree that edible means safe), we keep the natural process going without compromising health...

Toil I wasn't dissing the EM or even suggesting you stop using it, just pointing out that we step away from the SFW every time we do the choosing instead of letting the system do it. I think the organic movement has settled on aerobic decomposition over anaerobic because of the possibility for misssteps by less than diligent users, but I really don't think that applies to a guy with a microscope and as much inherent knowledge as Toil. Party on, Toil. Go completely anaerobic, you wild man... :wink:

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lol HG. I just pictured myself rocking out in a tub of yogurt with a tray of natto, kimchi, sauerkraut, and cheese. can't find the emoticon for that.


I think we basically agree with different emphasis.

I know the EM crowd is as crazy as the aerobists, and I have a suspicion everyone is basically half right, and you have to put them together to make it all right.
... possibility for misssteps by less than diligent users, but I really don't think that applies to a guy with a microscope and as much inherent knowledge as Toil

I don't tell you about my disasters! I'm probably the one most likely to cause injury to his self. Possibly by drinking his garden products.

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LOL!

There's a mental image I didn't need. And we all have our little foibles and bumbles; as long as they are learning experiences...

Ah, the middling road, the path least trodden by man but where Nature eternally strives to be, that place of balance and harmonies where all creatures act as a well oiled machine...

Yep, sounds about right! Now why can't we embrace that as a part of Nature as well? Why do we feel the need to dominate? It hasn't served us very well in our dealings with each other, our fellow species, or the planet we all share. Seems such common sense once you begin to look at it from a scientific perspective. We are the thumb on the scales...

HG

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we are an interesting thumb... working as hard as we can to create an even bigger thumb. one that could squish us.

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Toil and HG, I get your concepts, but you guys lost me in some of the details :lol:.

It looks like this answers a question I had at the beginning of this book. That is, do toms and peppers prefer funglally or bacterially dominated soils? Well, it looks like toms and other vegetables prefer a slightly more bacterial soil. Although they seem to prefer a slightly higher F:B ratio than other vegetables, I'm surprised that the toms and peppers were not more fungal. In their native climates, they are perennials and grow for years.

Perhaps there is some type of exception to this rule for these crops? A bacterial preference in mentioned for some hardwood trees when they are in their early stages. Also, some trees (old conifers) preferred twice the F:B ratio of others (maples, oaks, etc.). So, perhaps this continues on, to a lesser extent, with perenial vegetables :idea:.

HG mentioned in another thread that peppers grown in old-forest, fungally dominated soil did not do very well. But, maybe that was much more fungally dominated than what peppers prefer. I guess another way of putting it is vegetables prefer a bacterially dominated soil, but perennial vegetables to a lesser degree.

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Right you are G5. Certain plants have certain preferences, and perennials like more a little more fungal than annuals (another generalization, but mostly true).

Where did toil and I lose you? The aerobic vs. anaerobic debate is really not as complicated as it seemed to be; toil just plays a mean devil's advocate. Nor am I (as toil noted) dead set against anaerobes as part of the soil food web. We both went to polar extremes to make our points, but as I noted, (and again, in general) balanced between is the best place for us to be in almost any dichotomy, be it fungal/bacterial, anaerobic/aerobic, or less filling/tastes great.

Cool?

HG

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I didn't know what you guys meant by "EM," although after some thought, I think you were referring to ectomicorhizae.

I do see the aerobic/anaerobic balance. All those great archea are anaerobes, after all :wink:.

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EM = effective microbes or effective micro-organisms. It's an inoculant of starter bacteria that they use for bokashi composting

EM•1®, is a liquid Microbial Inoculant product that includes three groups of naturally occurring beneficial bacteria: Yeast, Photosynthetic Bacteria, and Lactic Acid Bacteria. EM•1® works together with microbes in the area to which it is added to promote a healthy environment for beneficial microorganisms and larger forms of life
https://www.teraganix.com/

Since I have never (yet?) done bokashi, I can't tell you any more than that.

Until last month, I would have said I don't do worm composting, but now I have a worm bin, so who knows...

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Thanks for the clarification, RBG. I know how you feel. Just a month ago I thought I wouldn't try growing in beds over a large piece of ground. Well, so much for that way of thinking :roll:. Oh, and I want to give vermicomposting a try, as well.

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garden5 wrote:Toil and HG, I get your concepts, but you guys lost me in some of the details :lol:.

It looks like this answers a question I had at the beginning of this book. That is, do toms and peppers prefer funglally or bacterially dominated soils? Well, it looks like toms and other vegetables prefer a slightly more bacterial soil. Although they seem to prefer a slightly higher F:B ratio than other vegetables, I'm surprised that the toms and peppers were not more fungal. In their native climates, they are perennials and grow for years.

Perhaps there is some type of exception to this rule for these crops? A bacterial preference in mentioned for some hardwood trees when they are in their early stages. Also, some trees (old conifers) preferred twice the F:B ratio of others (maples, oaks, etc.). So, perhaps this continues on, to a lesser extent, with perenial vegetables :idea:.

HG mentioned in another thread that peppers grown in old-forest, fungally dominated soil did not do very well. But, maybe that was much more fungally dominated than what peppers prefer. I guess another way of putting it is vegetables prefer a bacterially dominated soil, but perennial vegetables to a lesser degree.
I think and I could be wrong here, but have read it somewhere...
The stage of growth is a factor that my be overlooked when considering weather a plant likes bacterial soil better than a fungal soil. In the early stages of growth (vegetative) most plants need the bacteria laden soil to get the most nitrogen from it while establishing the plants structure. As the plant moves toward producing fruit, the mycohizal end of the spectrum is more important as it will be providing the potassium needed to build the fruit or vegetable. As was stated earlier, we can only provide the diversity. The plant and the soil decide what end it will allow to flourish according to what the roots tell the soil it is looking for. that is my take on it.

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Sounds thoroughly reasonable to me, GH.

Dr. Ingham stressed how plants change their root exudates to attract specific organisms at certain times (stress, disease, grazing, etc. could all be triggers). Stands to reason that different stages of growth could be yet another set of reasons...

HG



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