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Ch.1 What is The Soil Food Web and Why Should Gardeners Care

I am both pleased and proud to start off our discussion on Teaming With Microbes...

So who wants to take a crack at answering that question?

What is the Soil Food Web?

Why should we care?

HG

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rainbowgardener
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It's been 8 whole hours since the question was posted and no one has jumped in! I'm surprised... I'll start then.


The soil food web is every single living being in the soil and their interconnections/ inter-relationships. Every single living being in the soil (all "20,000 - 30,000 different species in a teaspoon of good garden soil" !! ) participates in a variety of eat-and-be-eaten, die-decompose-and-be eaten, you-eat-my-poop-and-I'll-eat-yours interlocking, multi-nodal functional relationships.

The soil food web including all the plants and their roots that are the alpha and omega of it is Gaia's brain! Does not that massively multi-connected, multi-nodal system of functional relationships sound like the synapses of a brain? It is how information is transmitted:

p.21-22 (I assume we don't have to give any more reference than that, since we all know in this thread we are talking about The Book !) they say:

"Studies indicate that individual plants can control the numbers and the different kinds of fungi and bacteria attracted to the rhizosphere by [modifying] the types of exudates they produce. During different times of the growing season, populations of rhizosphere bacteria and fungi wax and wane depending on the nutrient needs of the plants and the exudates it produces."

So the plant receives a stimulus from the outer environment, like lack of rain heralding beginning of dry season, which becomes an internal sensation of water deprivation, and then is translated into a message (information) that is sent out, I need moisture, I need the soil to become more water holding..... That information is passed along from one synapse to the next, creating various changes, responses, until the need is met, at which point, some signal is sent back through the afferent pathways to let the plant know that the necessary changes have been made, so the plant can turn off those signals. Gaia's Brain!

In the Gaia's Brain paradigm (which is not actually referring except metaphorically to soil) https://gaiabrain.blogspot.com/ they say:

"Intelligence: Ability to make connections that foster adaptive responses & promote the health of an organism. "

Is that not what we are talking about!?


Why should we care? Because it is amazing and wonderful and makes me fall in love with the world all over again! (Oh and incidentally our lives completely depend on it's well functioning!)

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I think I want a QUEUE! (Avatar reference -- neural tentacles that N'avi and other creatures on Pandora use to tap into and communicate with the web.)

Nothing more intellectual to say yet -- still absorbing, fascinated. Appalled by our (collective human) ignorance and arrogance.

Are fungi and bacteria represented side-by-side? I thought otherwise. Sorry if I'm not following proper format. More questions than answers, I fear.

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Nice RG well said. I would have to extend the Soil food web to creatures outside the soil as well. Above ground predators have a play in the whole scheme of things as well. Birds for example eat the larger insects and than poop and that is added to the web when an animal dies the food web than breaks the carcass down as well adding to the food web.

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I read the chapter and kept thinking about how we bonsai folks have sterilized our soil. Little or no organics and very few if any organisms in our soil. We have to add nutrients since our soil really has none. So, I will be reading the book with the bonsai artists eye and looking for ways to improve my soil mix.

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You are referring to the modern Bonsai soil concept right? Some of the blogs written by long-time Bonsai-ists in Japan mention Akadama and one other mined volcanic silt clay balls (Are they fired? I forget.) as well as bark chips, and (I can't remember the Japanese name for it) black pond muck for forming raised areas. Sounds like they would contain a lot of organisms and the clay balls would slowly leach minerals.

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Bonsai is about slowly measured fertility and restricting fertility; no surprise that the soils are sparse in humic content.

But the old Japanese school still made sure there was lots of biology; manure teas, rape seed cakes and screened composts were certainly part of the mix. I am shocked to see how many little trees are kept in starved soils and fed chemicals and still somehow survive. MM, I hope you do take some organic thinking back to the Bonsai Forum; these ARE little trees, and mycorrhizal fungi could be of great benefit, especially to the evergreen growers... and the Akadama IS fired...

RBG, what a lovely post and so well said. And the Gaian Principle, while not specifically espoused in Jeff's book, does seem to make more sense as you learn about this stuff. I recently saw Larry Weaner speak, and he talked about a study he was involved with where they were using tracking dye in sick spruces to find out how the water was moving in the plants. Direct injection to the trunks. Someone noticed some nearby birches were also sickly and when they looked at the birches they found dye! And here's the really neat part; ONLY in the sick birches!

Seems the fungal hyphae were connecting thse two species, and only the sickly trees were using the services provided for a boost. It remains to be seen if the fungal net was the pathogenic agent, or if other chemical interelations between species exist, but it sure does let us know we are just scratching the surface of what's below the surface... 8)

Gixx, right on; the above soil critters DO have inputs, especially the ones who type on computers. Ours aren't always so great, hence our reading this book. We can do better...

While there are many wonderful (in the true meaning of the word) points made in this chapter, the one I hope we all take to heart the most is this.
At the center of any viable soil food web are plants. Plants control the food web for their own benefit, an amazing fact that is too little understood and surely not appreciated by gardeners who are constantly intefering with Nature's system.
Sound familliar? :wink:

HG

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I guess I should mention the possible correlation to Companion Planting and Succession Planting I commented on [url=https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=114045#114045]here[/url]. HG responded on the second page of the thread.

I was also wondering ... The seeds that we always talk about direct seeding rather than starting ahead and transplanting, especially the ones that "don't like their roots disturbed" Could it be that it's not the tap roots or physical disturbance of the roots themselves, but that they are in a much more delicate balance with their rhizosphere? Could it be also that, since the wide recommendation is to use STERILE soil in bleach cleaned containers when starting seeds, there are insufficient microorganisms to even develop rhizosphere under those conditions? (Then of course, there's the common use of chemical fertilizers to grow the transplants.)

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Nice point AS. You could test it out by transplanting some carrots, but watering them in with ACT to start rebuilding the rhizosphere community.

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rainbowgardener wrote:Nice point AS. You could test it out by transplanting some carrots, but watering them in with ACT to start rebuilding the rhizosphere community.
I believe she is as am I we will see.

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As a carrot is MOSTLY rhizosphere I think it seems not just possible but likely there is a correlation there. Why would there not be?

The Lancet study a few years back showed organic foods to be 30% more nutrient dense on average, but root vegetables were nearly 100 % more dense! I'd say the biology had SOMETHING to do with that...

HG

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Interesting... so root vegetables were 100% more nutrient dense grown organically, everything summed up overall was 30% more dense, that means SOMETHING was considerably less than 30% more nutrient dense grown organically than not, like probably made next to no difference. It would be interesting to know what that was and why ...

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Roots are more carboniferous than the rest of the plant, perhaps it is the carbon that makes the difference?

Conjecture, though...

HG

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I start seeds in dirty pots, using fresh worm castings. I put a little in the bottom, and I put some on top. And in the mix.

I don't get the feeling since I've started doing this, that I am having problems with rot. If anything I have to monitor things less.


So I would say having a good microbial population is important from day one.

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I just finished reading the first chapter for the second time. I wanted to make sure I was getting it all in. :wink: It is so interesting to learn about the rhizosphere, bacteria and fungi and how they all work together. This is all very new to me, I am still new to the world of gardening. I find myself more addicted to it every day and I love reading what you all have to say.

I find it interesting how "All nitrogen is not the same".(pg. 25-26) I never even thought of this before and now it seems so clear to me.

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MM, it is so cool that you are learning it right the first time; so many of us here have had to unlearn the chemicals to get to the stuff Jeff and Wayne are talking about, myself included... :roll:

Happy you are liking it all... don't forget to start passing it all on to Mikey as soon as you can! :D

HG

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Got my book over a week ago, just started it last night-hope to join conversation very soon, sounds very informative and interesting!

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It's a page turner for sure, Gerrie... I think for many folks, this will end up being the most important gardening book they ever read. See if you don't think so too...

HG

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The Helpful Gardener wrote:It's a page turner for sure, Gerrie... I think for many folks, this will end up being the most important gardening book they ever read. See if you don't think so too...

HG
Page turner for sure, but some times it's a page turner than turn back a page an re read. There is some pretty technical stuff in there. Don't want to miss anything. I almost want to finish it so that I can re read the whole book to see what I missed.

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I'm reading with much more concentration than usual and trying to retain it. I will probably have to keep at it for a while. I'm a fast reader but have trouble retaining detail, however this whole concept has grabbed me. I never gave much thought to the 'dirt', somehow thinking you stuck a plant in it and the plant would be happy-kind of like plucking me out of beautiful Oregon and setting me down in Sri Lanka and then wondering why I am not 'absorbing' the benefits of the place. Shock, no familiar foods, no friends. Would take me a while to put down roots. A plants disturbed roots needs are the same, I guess, as our own micro nutritional needs. Lack of a particul mineral can cause havoc in us, too.

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Hi Gerrie,

Sounds like you are grasping the concept pretty well... 8)

But the really cool stuff lies ahead of you as you begin to see how each nut and bolt of the soil biology (bacteria, archaea, fungi, microarthropods, nematodes, protista, etc.) all dovetail, check and balance, and work together to make soil work for you...

If you aren't an organic gardener when you start this book, you will be by the time you finish it... :D

HG

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Well, I'm finally here. I know, I know.......I'm way late. I've got no excuse except for procrastination.

However, better to be late than never!

As everyone else has said, this book is an amazing read. Definitely the most revolutionary gardening book I've read. Ironically, the revolutionary standard of this book is achieved by its overall concept of cutting out all of the hi-tech gardening sprays and powders and go back to basics. From the very first chapter, an amazing book.

I remember how (I think it was in the ACT thread) we talked about the relation between soil ph and the microbes that inhabit it. However, it was unclear which came first, the ph or the microbes. That is, which influenced which.

On p25, it looks like this is cleared up. It seems to indicate that the bacteria (with their bioslime) and the fungi (with their acids) have an influential effect on ph. I suppose we could venture to say that, with human inputs left out, it is the microbes that control the ph. Actually, since plants control the microbial community, we could venture to say that the plants have the ability to control the ph of the soil (or at least of the soil in the root-zone.

What say you?

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Not so fast G5... :wink:

I did a talk on this subject for the NOFA Winter Education session a few years back titled "Soil Biology and Chemistry: The Chicken And The Egg" I came to this title through a conversation with Doc Ingham herself (Jeff's muse for the tome we are discussing), where she used this phrase in describing the correlations. Sure they are there, but which comes first?

If she won't guess, I sure won't. The point you outline below is certainly true, but what selects the biology? The plants mostly, to hear Elaine tell it and here we find another chicken and egg. While this is certainly true that these biologies DO influence the outcome, and knowing that we can in some fashion manipulate them to our own ends, you are making a massive leap of faith (which ain't science) to make the biologies the causal agency. You might be right, but I think pointing at any singular section of the ecosystem (microbiological, minerral, faunal or floral) and saying "YEP! that's it!" is oversimplification, adn we don't really know yet...

Which brings me to my final point. While it is well and good to understand the intricacies of these natural systems in so much as we can then work with them rather than against them, to try to grasp their meaning so that we can work around them or bend them entirely to our wills is, IMO, somewhat missing the point.

I return again and again to my conversation with Doctor Ingham where I made my big pitch for adding trichoderma to a compost, which she gently shot down by reminding me that when humans make decisions, we do so without all the info and on a momentary whim. Nature takes millions of years of natural selection to determine what works, so who are you going to trust? And in the end, the plants are the final stay-or-slay deciders for which biologies work or not.

This is why compost works, with us or without us... don't overthink this thing. Get a working overview, and make your leap of faith based around that. There's a leap of faith I can get behind...

HG

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I stand corrected.

You've really put my point into perspective. I see that this is an issue that is so large and comprehensive that it is naive to draw a conclusion and close the book on it after reading a single sentence on it.......which in itself only touches on one of the aspects of the issue.

Would you agree, though, that this indicates that plants to have the ability, so some degree, influence the ph in the soil they grow in?

Also, in the chapter it is mentioned that perennials generally prefer a more-fungal soil and that vegetables generally prefer a bacterial soil. Where do you think this leaves perennial vegetables like tomatoes, peppers, asparagus, etc.?

Eh, probably just give them the biology and let them decide for themselves :wink:. Kind of the best philosophy in gardening, really.

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My point exactly G5... :D And yes, I DO believe plants help to select their own pH.

Quick note; peppers and tomatoes are annual veggies; the asparagus (and Jerusalem artichokes and that sort) are perennial veg.

HG

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If you've been reading all the threads going on lately about people overwintering their peppers, peppers are actually tender perennials grown as annuals in cold weather climates. I believe the same is true of tomatoes.

But I think the question was if something is a vegetable AND a perennial, does it want bacterial soils like veggies or fungal soils like perennials..

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That's what I was thinking, RBG. To my understanding (at least the way it was worded when I read it) both toms and peps are perennials in their natural(original?) environment/climate. Perhaps HG is going by a different standard than we are of what determines a perennial?

You are right, this was the question in my head when I made the post, but then it occurred to me that the plant wants what it wants and the best thing to do is just give it all the microbes we can and let it choose the right balance of them rather than try to figure out what the plant prefers and they try to give it the microbes that "we think" it needs. If there's one thing I've learned from this book and from the compost tea discussions, it's that the plants know better than anyone what they want :wink:.

However, if I had to choose, I'd say that some perennial-vegetables probably err towards the bacterial side and others to the fungal side.That's just a guess, though.

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It's a good one. I had that conversation with Dr. Ingham once, and much of it is a hazy blur, but we were discussing her current (at the time) work with savannah (a mixture of grass and trees) soils and she was talking about how in savannah you sometimes found trees that had more bacterial associations, or annuals with strong fungal sides, and the prevalence of parasitic and hemiparasitic plants was higher, as if the oddity of the ecosystem bred more oddities in the ecological associations (what permies call guilds).

Long story short (and returning to the original thought I had) was it the odd ecosystem causing these diffferent associations, or the other way around? Who can say? Baptisia is a pretty woody perennial with a very strong bacterial association. Are ericaceous plants such lime haters because they don't like it or their mycological hitchhikers don't? (Ericaceous composts can make a heap of difference in getting that family of plants started, and I think it's more biology than pH).

Tomatoes and peppers seem to be more bacterially minded; try to grow a tomato in woodland soils, and I have noted a proclivity of my peppers to get woody in the fruit if I get too humusy in the soil. They like the lime, and higher pH means more bacteria (or is it the other way around?)

:wink:

HG

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Great post, HG.

It really shows that the ecological and biological associations are so numerous, complex, and varying that it is almost a certainty that we will get negative results when we intervene in natural processes with the mind-set that we know just what the plant/soil needs (forgive the run-on sentence :oops: ). We don't.....at least not entirely.

It's like our analogy back in the ACT thread. If you ask a carpenter to build you a shed and proceed to give him the tools, nails, and lumber you think he will need, you may get less than ideal results. However, give him a check, cash, or charge card and you will get a beautiful building (albeit a bit more expensive, but that's beside the point).

Giving your plants humus, and ACT is like writing them a blank check to the First National Bank of Microbes :D.

I've been busy lately, so I haven't been reading much. Hopefully I'll be back with more questions on future chapters soon.

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Keep them coming. We chose this book as our first because it speaks to what I continue to see as the key tenet of organic gardening; biology rules.

We can pretend to be integrally important to the process, but I think of us more as waiters, with the soil biology as chefs and the plants as diners. The chefs are perfectly capable of bringing the food to the diners, it's just easier for everyone involved if there are good waiters, that don't hover or fuss too much, or take too much from either chefs or diners... :wink:

HG

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Or accidentally or intentionally conk the chef over the head with the serving tray! :>

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OK, this was at the end of chapter 2, but I think it best fits with our recent discussion. It talks about the discharge of hydrogen and hydroxy from the plants roots in exchange for nutrients from the soil. It mentioned how these discharges raise and lower the pH of the soil.

However, at the end, it stated that the real reason to know about the chemistry behind the soil's pH was to understand how it affected the microbes.

Hence, this book illustrates how complex the soil food web is. The microbes affect the pH, but the pH also affects the microbes.

HG and Apps, I like your analogies.

The end if this chapter kind of sums up what HG's always trying to tell us: "You have to appreciate the soil first."

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I am way late to the party here, but I just received my copy of Teaming a couple of days ago. I am bouncing back and forth between Teaming and Eliot Coleman's the New Organic Grower ... what awesome readings for the organic gardener !!!

One thing that I have come to realize is that, in the past, I have "disturbed" the soil much more than is necessary. The damage that a roto-tiller can do to the soil (and it's living organisms) now seems so obvious to me; but it often takes a good read (like those mentioned above) to help you see things in a new light.

It's so nice to be able to read a chapter in the book, and then see others' comments and interpretations of the subject... another superb offering here at HG !!! :D

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Nobody's ever late to THIS party! Wecome! :clap:
Looking forward to your insights. 8)

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I know the feeling Farmer. There's nothing like a good book that can totally revolutionize how you think about something you've been doing for a long time.

Looking forward to more microbial discussions :wink:.

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Let's keep 'em coming!

HG

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Reading all your posts my thoughts were the soil foodweb is really just the initial growth bit or foundation of the whole of the web of life, and as a part of the whole, which we are a part of, we are both dependent and interdependent with it. We are indeed One. Then my thought flew to the
way we are one whole person but composed of so many individual cells all different performing different functions. Earth is a whole organism and we and other species are equivalent to different cells performing different functions within the whole living organism of earth. Fungi were the vanguard species enabling plant life to develop, who knows we might take the soil web basics to a similar rocky planet and create life on it. The fungal web is like earths internet, and dark matter is similar in structure to fungi in the earth
Intuitively somehow it begins to feel like organisms progressing in size and complexity like russian dolls :lol: It's late and I'm rambling way off the subject of gardening.... well maybe gardening on another planet. :lol:

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OH ACK

I bought it online ... never realizing there would be pictures ....


/shivers



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