Brazilian Raintree Seedlings not opening

[Demosouthpaw]

What's up forum,

I recently germinated three BRT from seeds about a month ago. The seedlings are growing well they are pushing out new leaves and are nice and green. BUT the leaves have not opened yet. I did fertilize with a very weak chemical mix.

I'm using Four HO T5 bulbs and two regual t5 I run the light 16hrs a day. And they are planted in 100% turface.

Am I doing something wrong or is it still too early for their leaves to open up?

[Demosouthpaw]

Before headed to work this morning I snapped some pictures of the little guys. And just a little while ago I took more to try and show some before and after. Let me know what you guys think. I don't see much opening up. And to correct myself they have been growing for 21 days.

BRT #2 at 6:45am

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BRT #2 at 4:45pm

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BRT #3 at 4:45pm

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BRT #1 at 6:45am

BRT #1 at 4:45pm

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[Demosouthpaw]

This is the grow set up for my little guys. The two DC fans to the left run 24hours a day at 50% of their rated voltage. The breeze it provides is gentle and enough to keep the leaves from getting too moist.

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[applestar]

I don't really know much about them, but as a general question, how are you watering them?

Sometimes, watering deeply -- either by plunging in a container of water up to 2/3 way up the side of the plant container or watering three times -- then allowing to drain thoroughly (don't let sit in water) will produce amazing results.

[tomc]

I don't know a thing about brazilian rain trees. To my eye bones they look like legumes. I expect if you want the leaves to open fully, you'll need to get them into real sunlight. How many hours per day are colder than
50° F? In Ft Lauterdale in April?

My Texas Ebony limp along indoors. They'll be out in the sun soon and will open and close with sunlight.

[Demosouthpaw]

I don't know a thing about brazilian rain trees. To my eye bones they look like legumes. I expect if you want the leaves to open fully, you'll need to get them into real sunlight. How many hours per day are colder than
50° F? In Ft Lauterdale in April?

My Texas Ebony limp along indoors. They'll be out in the sun soon and will open and close with sunlight.

None, the coldest it gets in that closet is 70 at night. The warmest is 88. The flouros I'm using are h.o. T5 and two regular 2 bulb t5 fixtures. Do you think they are still to young?

[Demosouthpaw]

I don't really know much about them, but as a general question, how are you watering them?

Sometimes, watering deeply -- either by plunging in a container of water up to 2/3 way up the side of the plant container or watering three times -- then allowing to drain thoroughly (don't let sit in water) will produce amazing results.

In the turface I am watering as needed sometimes its twice a day sometimes its once, I watered today after going almost a day w.out watering. I use the chop stick method to gauge my watering. Today I watered twice to see if the leaves would open up. I water from the top until the water comes out of the bottom, I wait about 5 minutes and then do this again.

I read someone was having a similar issue and it turned out to be lack of water. The tree was keeping it leaves closed to try and retain moister. BUT I don't think that is my problem here. When I got home from work they seemed to had opened a bit more than this morning. And not to mention the seedling is pushing through alot of growth, I'm just stumped as to why they wont open! The lights I'm using are 64k which is full spectrum and the Medicinal herb growers use similar setups to grow their stuff, so how is it that these guys wont open? =/

[applestar]

What about humidity? Do keep track of max/min?

[Demosouthpaw]

What about humidity? Do keep track of max/min?

Yes I do, 45-55% I close the closet door before I go to sleep so the ac dsnt dry em out. When I wake up I open it slightly and the humidity stays around 50% plus or minus 5 depending om the day. I read another article just now someone saying too much light can also cause them to close up. Since I'm at work for 8-10hours a day I can't see what goes on during the day. Maybe they are opening up and then closing BC the light is too strong for them. Granted they are flourecents which shouldn't pose a problem...right?

[applestar]

Maybe it needs brighter light since quick search mentions it's a full sun tree in nature. Looks like your upper lights are pretty high above the top of the foliage. Try raising just one of them on a riser (upside down pot or something) about 3-4" below the t5 tubes.

[grrlgeek]

I don't know a thing about brazilian rain trees. To my eye bones they look like legumes.

That's because they are legumes. https://www.bonsaitoolchest.com/download ... intree.pdf

In the turface I am watering as needed sometimes its twice a day sometimes its once, ............
I read someone was having a similar issue and it turned out to be lack of water. The tree was keeping it leaves closed to try and retain moister.

I only have a rudimentary understanding of bonsai medium, but turface is clay, and from the fact sheet on the raintree, they like to grow in sand. Factors like lighting aside -- I don't know if that's too much or too little, but I use T5HO (also from HTG) and that's a lot of light and warmth that close to the lamps. I go 8-10" off seedlings or they just cringe. But I might infer from its watering preferences that the turface, isn't maintaining a level that the tree, which really wants to grow in sand, likes. Would using a different inert material like haydite or permatil, or adding sand, be an option?

I had this document in my bookmarks from a few years back when hubby decided to grow a Barbados Cherry bonsai as a hobby. https://www.bonsailearningcenter.com/IMA ... /Soils.pdf

excerpt:
"Haydite is another brand name and is the rock equivalent
of turface. Similar products may be found marketed
under names such as permatil and staylite.
(snip)
Like the turface it is full of tiny holes which
absorb water and release it back to the plant.
Some research even indicates haydite releases
water more readily than does the turface and is
less inclined to accumulate salts from watering.
Depending upon where it comes from, expanded
rock may be slightly pH acidic. This can be easily
corrected by adding a little horticultural lime to
the soil mix."

Or maybe, they're just shy. They look green and happy enough, though Perhaps just a little more time and some real sun and they'll get going.

That's a beautiful tree for bonsai... best wishes on that journey.

[Demosouthpaw]

Maybe it needs brighter light since quick search mentions it's a full sun tree in nature. Looks like your upper lights are pretty high above the top of the foliage. Try raising just one of them on a riser (upside down pot or something) about 3-4" below the t5 tubes.

The upper lights are 8" away from them. On the I side of the closet door is another t5 that when closed gives them additional light. I don't think too little light is the issue. But never the less I will move one up closer and see what happens. I also saw a picture of one guy growing them under what looked like t8 cool whites. If this is true it might again support my theory on too much light??

[rainbowgardener]

when tom asked:

How many hours per day are colder than
50° F? In Ft Lauterdale in April?


he was talking about outdoor temps. You answered about inside your closet. But I looked and intellicast 10 day forecast has all the nights in Ft Lauderdale above 60. So why not just take them out? In general (once hardened off) plants do better outdoors than in.

[Demosouthpaw]

when tom asked:

How many hours per day are colder than
50° F? In Ft Lauterdale in April?


he was talking about outdoor temps. You answered about inside your closet. But I looked and intellicast 10 day forecast has all the nights in Ft Lauderdale above 60. So why not just take them out? In general (once hardened off) plants do better outdoors than in.

Well I live on a second floor studio with no outside. :/

[Demosouthpaw]

So check it out I got home a little while ago and checked up on my little guys. Today they seem to have opened more than they were yesterday. So I'm guessing they just take some time to open up completely. SEE THE PICS!!! =)

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I brought my buddy along to check them out, he has experience with gardening and grew some legumes from seeds awhile back. He said that it might be too much light for now since they are seedlings, supposedly these tree appreciate early morning sun and partial sun during peak hours of the say. All I've read suggests they require full sunlight.

[applestar]

Yay!

Being seedlings, it does make sense that they would normally be struggling in the mulch and shrubbery, understory, etc.

But since you have multiple plants, what I would do it put one on a riser for more light, and put another one farthest from the side light or at the end of the fixture, etc some way to reduce amount of light it's getting and see what happens in three days or so.

[rainbowgardener]

Part sun outdoors is still way more light than being directly under the lights for 16 hrs a day indoors! I start impatiens and all kinds of shade lovers under my lights and they all benefit from as much light as I can give them.

[Demosouthpaw]

Yay!

Being seedlings, it does make sense that they would normally be struggling in the mulch and shrubbery, understory, etc.

But since you have multiple plants, what I would do it put one on a riser for more light, and put another one farthest from the side light or at the end of the fixture, etc some way to reduce amount of light it's getting and see what happens in three days or so.

Hmm hmm true. I will give that a shot and see what happens. Yeah I was pretty excited to see these bad boys opened up a bit more today.

[Demosouthpaw]

Part sun outdoors is still way more light than being directly under the lights for 16 hrs a day indoors! I start impatiens and all kinds of shade lovers under my lights and they all benefit from as much light as I can give them.

I wish I could put them outdoors, I live in a studio apt on the second floor.