Mr. Orange,
Please read this thread concerning [url=https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3422]the basics of bonsai soils.[/url] You are going to need one or more inorganic components. Bonsai soils are not really soils at all and in fact seldom contain any actual soil. Many 'recipes' call for mostly inorganic materials sifted to remove the particles that are too large or too small. Often tropicals (usually tropical species are used for indoor bonsai) do well with a higher percentage of organics but you will still need the inorganics as well.
Norm
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Mr. Orange
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I just found this on amazon, in the details of the $9 seller, it says that these starter plants typically come at a minimum of 4"-5", would this be too small/young to start with? The details also say that this is a slow growing plant. It does indicate that it is a schefflera arbicola trinette, which I found is just a variation of the arbicola with yellow variegation in the leaves. The color doesnt bother me at all, but does anyone know if this coloration comes with a slowed growth characteristic?
here is the page I am referencing:
https://www.amazon.com/Varigated-Schefflera-Arbicola-Trinette-Starter/dp/B004JZFNOK/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1315413749&sr=8-8
By the way, the damned school library either misplaced or someone stole the book I was talking about, so I am going to have to find one elsewhere
here is the page I am referencing:
https://www.amazon.com/Varigated-Schefflera-Arbicola-Trinette-Starter/dp/B004JZFNOK/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1315413749&sr=8-8
By the way, the damned school library either misplaced or someone stole the book I was talking about, so I am going to have to find one elsewhere
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Gnome
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Mr. Orange,
Yes I believe that the characteristic of variegation and slow growth often go together. While this might seem to be a plus for bonsai culture it can actually be a hindrance if you are developing small stock. I've gotten pretty good growth in just a few years with my standard green Scheff.
https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18867
Norm
Yes I believe that the characteristic of variegation and slow growth often go together. While this might seem to be a plus for bonsai culture it can actually be a hindrance if you are developing small stock. I've gotten pretty good growth in just a few years with my standard green Scheff.
https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18867
Norm
My eldest who is now flirting with her fourtieth birthday once described bonsai soil as: "A bag of gravel with a little bit of bark mulch dragged through it". To a neighbor.
Her description was and remains apt.
I'll hunker down here for a day or so and let others describe the particle size of the soil they use.
Her description was and remains apt.
I'll hunker down here for a day or so and let others describe the particle size of the soil they use.
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Gnome
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Tom,
This is a portion of a screenshot I took on Amazon. It was included in a review of BonsaiBoy.com.
[url=https://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/36/rockscopyp.jpg/][img]https://img36.imageshack.us/img36/7894/rockscopyp.jpg[/img][/url]
No matter how you might feel about them, you have to admit this is funny.
Norm
This is a portion of a screenshot I took on Amazon. It was included in a review of BonsaiBoy.com.
[url=https://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/36/rockscopyp.jpg/][img]https://img36.imageshack.us/img36/7894/rockscopyp.jpg[/img][/url]
No matter how you might feel about them, you have to admit this is funny.
Norm
For me it is a short walk to the phrase; 'anything worth doing, is worth overdoing'.
So when I was ensconced at my old program, I took the time to find cheep sources for soil. I have not really rebuilt that degree of soil production, and don't know if I will in the future. Its not the expence or the labor that is off-putting. it just even half of a nursery is not all that mobile. I found shrinking my collection of tree-children traumatic. A year and a half post-move and I'm still sore.
OK enough about me. lets do dirt.
Your local feed store has several products sold as chicken scratch. I preffer crushed granite (#2 I think). One local brand name was "Granni-Grit" it sifts out easily (more on that later), sells in fifty pound bags, and retails at like 7-9 dollars per bag.
Just about any big box store sells crushed pine bark mulch in fifties, it too sifts out easily and retails at 3 to 5 dollars a bag.
?Sift? Yea, what ever will not pass through a 1/2" hardware cloth screen is too big. Also what ever will pass through a 1/16" (window) screen is too small.
The next upsize past scrounging sand from a sand bank or bark mulch from a saw mill or the chistmas-tree shredding, was for me, to buy the stuff by the ton or cubic yard. I would go through 4-5 30 gallon barrels of sifted granite grit per year.
Where ever gravel gets crushed, often connected to a concrete plant, make a fair bit of waist sandy looking stone dust. it was like $10 per ton if I picked it up...
I probably still make my soil too wet by the minor addition of compost and or peat, but most of that goes into azalea soil. I won't tell ya to use salt shaker size additions of that fine particle size soil component, to a wheelbarrow of crushed granite and bark mulch; but would not be too shocked if others did.
Mr Orange mentioned being a student. he may well be stuck to a couple of screens and a five gallon pail or two. Thats OK he will have his chance to jump in the deep end of the pool if he likes tree-babies.
Gnome, mentioned Bonsai-boy, I'll bring up evergreengardenworks. I think EGW-Brent Walston a better value. Both do a good service in that they provide plant material suitable for training. Selected by a knowledgable bonsai grower. In order to be in business thay gotta make a living.
What no retailer is going to sell is much more than a seedling. Developed stock that sells, is done on their site, and for more money that I got. FWIW I never had any trouble selling Bloodgood japan maples, and I never spent a nickle on advertising. Actually in NH, there was rather more of a demand for them, than I was ever willing to part with.
Again I have digressed, first we gotta get Mr Orange hooked, by a couple of actually living trees. Mr O, if a China-man living in not much more than a shack can successfuly keep a couple of tree babies on his back step, with only a few rudimentary tools, we aught to able to too.
So when I was ensconced at my old program, I took the time to find cheep sources for soil. I have not really rebuilt that degree of soil production, and don't know if I will in the future. Its not the expence or the labor that is off-putting. it just even half of a nursery is not all that mobile. I found shrinking my collection of tree-children traumatic. A year and a half post-move and I'm still sore.
OK enough about me. lets do dirt.
Your local feed store has several products sold as chicken scratch. I preffer crushed granite (#2 I think). One local brand name was "Granni-Grit" it sifts out easily (more on that later), sells in fifty pound bags, and retails at like 7-9 dollars per bag.
Just about any big box store sells crushed pine bark mulch in fifties, it too sifts out easily and retails at 3 to 5 dollars a bag.
?Sift? Yea, what ever will not pass through a 1/2" hardware cloth screen is too big. Also what ever will pass through a 1/16" (window) screen is too small.
The next upsize past scrounging sand from a sand bank or bark mulch from a saw mill or the chistmas-tree shredding, was for me, to buy the stuff by the ton or cubic yard. I would go through 4-5 30 gallon barrels of sifted granite grit per year.
Where ever gravel gets crushed, often connected to a concrete plant, make a fair bit of waist sandy looking stone dust. it was like $10 per ton if I picked it up...
I probably still make my soil too wet by the minor addition of compost and or peat, but most of that goes into azalea soil. I won't tell ya to use salt shaker size additions of that fine particle size soil component, to a wheelbarrow of crushed granite and bark mulch; but would not be too shocked if others did.
Mr Orange mentioned being a student. he may well be stuck to a couple of screens and a five gallon pail or two. Thats OK he will have his chance to jump in the deep end of the pool if he likes tree-babies.
Gnome, mentioned Bonsai-boy, I'll bring up evergreengardenworks. I think EGW-Brent Walston a better value. Both do a good service in that they provide plant material suitable for training. Selected by a knowledgable bonsai grower. In order to be in business thay gotta make a living.
What no retailer is going to sell is much more than a seedling. Developed stock that sells, is done on their site, and for more money that I got. FWIW I never had any trouble selling Bloodgood japan maples, and I never spent a nickle on advertising. Actually in NH, there was rather more of a demand for them, than I was ever willing to part with.
Again I have digressed, first we gotta get Mr Orange hooked, by a couple of actually living trees. Mr O, if a China-man living in not much more than a shack can successfuly keep a couple of tree babies on his back step, with only a few rudimentary tools, we aught to able to too.
Last edited by tomc on Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mr. Orange
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TomM
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I'm curious - where did you read that Japanese maples (or any other kind) are suitable for indoors?
Indoor plants are those that thrive on 65-70 degrees - constantly - year round. Think about that. MAPLES? No way!
Do they grow outdoors where you live? What does that tell you? They are outdoor trees. Have you noticed that they lose their leaves in Fall as they get cold and go dormant?
In my 65 years I have never seen, or heard of, an indoor maple.
One more thing - Japanese maples are not 'easy beginner trees'. Start with tropical (indoor) trees.
Indoor plants are those that thrive on 65-70 degrees - constantly - year round. Think about that. MAPLES? No way!
Do they grow outdoors where you live? What does that tell you? They are outdoor trees. Have you noticed that they lose their leaves in Fall as they get cold and go dormant?
In my 65 years I have never seen, or heard of, an indoor maple.
One more thing - Japanese maples are not 'easy beginner trees'. Start with tropical (indoor) trees.
In upstate NY or the lakes region in NH, a collected seedling Japan maple could be an afordable way to start with that part of the acer family.
What it will never become is an indoor tree.
Indoor trees are fig, olive, TX Ebony, Barbados cherry, acacia maybe. Even those live out of doors as weather permits.
What it will never become is an indoor tree.
Indoor trees are fig, olive, TX Ebony, Barbados cherry, acacia maybe. Even those live out of doors as weather permits.
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Mr. Orange
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so.. my stepmother gave me a jade plant this afternoon as a birthday gift, and I am not sure if these are considered bonsai material. there are 3 or 4 trunks coming out of the pot (I cant be sure if two of them are joined under the soil.. if you could call it that. see, there are the infamous pebbles glued down over the top of the soil, and it is in a terra cotta pot that has no drainage holes. what can I do to remove these cemented pebbles? do I have to break the pot? or should I just take a hammer and chisel and break them away bit by bit? my flash player is giving me some trouble right now so I cant upload pictures, but I will soon. thanks again all!
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Gnome
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Mr. Orange,
Jades are not generally considered traditional bonsai candidates, but don't let that stop you from growing and enjoying your new charge. I have more than a few of these and they can make presentable bonsai. Baby Jades, or Portulacaria afra, are even better as they have much smaller leaves.
https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=82337#82337
Having no drainage holes is bad M'kay. You must get it out of that pot in the near future, . If you don't wish to keep it you can just go ahead and break it apart. Even a conventional nursery pot is better than what you have now.
The problem is that you don't have any proper soil on hand yet. Jades can go without water for extended periods of time so as long as you don't water it you can leave it as is while you acquire some better mix, but do it quickly.
Norm
Jades are not generally considered traditional bonsai candidates, but don't let that stop you from growing and enjoying your new charge. I have more than a few of these and they can make presentable bonsai. Baby Jades, or Portulacaria afra, are even better as they have much smaller leaves.
https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=82337#82337
Having no drainage holes is bad M'kay. You must get it out of that pot in the near future, . If you don't wish to keep it you can just go ahead and break it apart. Even a conventional nursery pot is better than what you have now.
The problem is that you don't have any proper soil on hand yet. Jades can go without water for extended periods of time so as long as you don't water it you can leave it as is while you acquire some better mix, but do it quickly.
Norm
Noting as you have that a mass-market plant, comes ill equiped for long term storage (in the soil & pot) as it arives.
I'm gonna repeat my hard learned pyramid of need, as it comes to training a plant in a tray.
A., First-greatest: very fast draiining soil made mostly of coarse sand or coarse (sifted) granite grit, with probably less than half its volume of sifted bark mulch.
B., Second: shallow pots with adaquate drainage holes.
C., Least: live plants-trees.
Again you're jumping ahead to collumn "C". if you want your jade to flourish, your gonna have to go back to collumn "A".
Or not.
I'm gonna repeat my hard learned pyramid of need, as it comes to training a plant in a tray.
A., First-greatest: very fast draiining soil made mostly of coarse sand or coarse (sifted) granite grit, with probably less than half its volume of sifted bark mulch.
B., Second: shallow pots with adaquate drainage holes.
C., Least: live plants-trees.
Again you're jumping ahead to collumn "C". if you want your jade to flourish, your gonna have to go back to collumn "A".
Or not.
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Mr. Orange
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thank you tomc and gnome, and tomM, why be rude? I didn't label this thread, it was separated from another, if you re-read the whole gamut, you would see that. and as for taking advice, the plant was given to me after mentioning an interest in the area of plants, I do now have pots and I am working on gathering suitable soil. I am sorry that I havent posted to let any of you know that I have been doing that in the mean time. I did take the advice and have posted on my local reuseit yahoo group, as there isnt a freecycle around here. why come into this thread just to be a jerk? just wondering, because in my opinion its just a waste of a post if you arent trying to help or have something nice to say. just my opinion though I suppose..
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TomM
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Orange,
I'm sorry for the rudeness. Guess I got your attention now. I wrongly thought that you were just jumping all around and not really absorbing the help offered by good people here. Glad to hear your plans and that you've started a class.
I appreciate your enthusiasm - I'm seeing it from other younger 'newbies' as well.
As for your glued-on-rocks chip away if you can. Try to pry with a narrow screwdriver. But be careful as the pots often break when doing this. Eye protection is important. Good luck with it.
Again - happy birthday!.
I'm sorry for the rudeness. Guess I got your attention now. I wrongly thought that you were just jumping all around and not really absorbing the help offered by good people here. Glad to hear your plans and that you've started a class.
I appreciate your enthusiasm - I'm seeing it from other younger 'newbies' as well.
As for your glued-on-rocks chip away if you can. Try to pry with a narrow screwdriver. But be careful as the pots often break when doing this. Eye protection is important. Good luck with it.
Again - happy birthday!.
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Mr. Orange
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Thank you for the birthday wishes. I'm glad you werent just trying to be ajerk just for the sake of it. The forums ive participated in in the past were full of young kids just trying to act tough behind their computer screen, so forgive me if I seemed immediately irritated. This is certainly not a forum for 'trollers' or 'flamers' as they say. Anyways I think tomorrow I will have enough time to finish gathering my soil mixture components, and I may look around at one of the local garden plant stores that I heard had schefflera's. Hopefully the slight bit of cash I got from a card will be able to buy me a small one, otherwise I will be resorting to putting something on my credit card from the internet, which I really don't want to do, as they arent fully paid off yet >.< maybe if I amblucky someone will have responded to my reuseit request by the morning.
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TomM
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Try to find the dwarf variety. Smaller foliage is important.
Take your time - don't rush. Better to look around a bit than to take the first that you see. It can be a bit frustrating, but we all need to exercise patience with bonsai. Maybe you can earn a few extra bucks and get something a little nicer and pay cash (not credit). Chores, lawn mowing, yardwork.
We're not jerks here. Well, maybe I am sometimes. Sometimes it's hard to steer people in the right direction from afar. I say something weird to get a point across even it is a bit gruff. No disrespect intended.
Spend your birthday gift $$$ wisely, or just save it until you can add some to it and get the 'next step up' for your beginner tree. Meanwhile read all you can about the type of tree you want to get. Learn what kind of care it needs so that will live a long and healthy life as bonsai.
Take your time - don't rush. Better to look around a bit than to take the first that you see. It can be a bit frustrating, but we all need to exercise patience with bonsai. Maybe you can earn a few extra bucks and get something a little nicer and pay cash (not credit). Chores, lawn mowing, yardwork.
We're not jerks here. Well, maybe I am sometimes. Sometimes it's hard to steer people in the right direction from afar. I say something weird to get a point across even it is a bit gruff. No disrespect intended.
Spend your birthday gift $$$ wisely, or just save it until you can add some to it and get the 'next step up' for your beginner tree. Meanwhile read all you can about the type of tree you want to get. Learn what kind of care it needs so that will live a long and healthy life as bonsai.
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TomM
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Had another thought too. Since you are in Upstate NY you might want to consider this - if you are able.
We've been hit hard recently with one big storm after another. Severe flooding, wind damage, etc. Local nurseries and landscapers are 'swamped' and 'inundated' (puns intended) with work. Look around for a local place like that for some part-time, or even voluntary, work. Believe me there is plenty of repair to be done. Work with things that you enjoy doing.
Hang out with others with shared interests in plants, trees, landscaping and design. Expose yourself (no pun intended this time) to working with trees and to these special interests of yours. Good things will come of it. You might be able to find just the bonsai material you want in exchange for your assistance.
Your local county BOCES or Co-operative Extension Service probably offers classes in Soil and Water Conservation, horticulture, landscape design or related fields. Take a class. Get involved. Some big name bonsai experts started out this way.
We've been hit hard recently with one big storm after another. Severe flooding, wind damage, etc. Local nurseries and landscapers are 'swamped' and 'inundated' (puns intended) with work. Look around for a local place like that for some part-time, or even voluntary, work. Believe me there is plenty of repair to be done. Work with things that you enjoy doing.
Hang out with others with shared interests in plants, trees, landscaping and design. Expose yourself (no pun intended this time) to working with trees and to these special interests of yours. Good things will come of it. You might be able to find just the bonsai material you want in exchange for your assistance.
Your local county BOCES or Co-operative Extension Service probably offers classes in Soil and Water Conservation, horticulture, landscape design or related fields. Take a class. Get involved. Some big name bonsai experts started out this way.