MNABAKOWSKI
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Chinese Elm Bonsai

:(
All of a sudden, my extremely healthy chinese elm is losing leaves... Do they normally do this in the fall?

Kimmy
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Hiya are the leaves going brown and falling off and does the tree look bare?

If so mine is doing exactly the same and I am worried about losing it. Its my first Bonsai so I am not sure if this is normal or not?

Can anyone help us please?

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djlen
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Welcome to the forum to both of you.

Elms and other deciduous trees lose leaves when it gets cold in the fall but the far more important factor in fall leaf drop is the shortened photo-period they have to deal with as the days get shorter.
If your trees are outside this is a very normal occurrence. If they are inside they could still be dropping leaves unless you are giving them an augmented light supply.
Obviously, there could be other issues with your trees but without knowing more it's hard to help.
So are they indoors or out? Are they getting artificial light if inside?
Send us a picture or two, please.
Also, there are some (I am one) who believe that U. parvifolia will suffer in the long term without a period of dormancy in the fall. I believe that they will eventually wear themselves out without this rest period.
Last edited by djlen on Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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djlen
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I received this reply in the form a PM from MNABAKOWSKI this morning and thought it would be better to reply here since I know that there are others with more knowledge than myself who should see this and add to it:

From MNABAKOWSKI - "It is indoors and has been since I got it in April. It sits on my desk and gets wonderful natural light from a 12ft x 40ft glass atrium wall... It gets watered at least twice a week... It just happened over night it seems. The leaves are not browned on the edges... just yellow. I will try to get pictures and send them today."

OK, so it's getting all natural light. This would cause me to believe that it's going into a dormancy due to the shortened days. Has the room temp. dropped any since the cooler weather has arrived?
The only thing I wonder about is that many of the elms in my area are still holding their green for the most part, even outside. A few yellows here and there but holding much better than say maples, oaks etc.
I hope you will post a picture so we can see the tree.
I will tell you that if it were mine I would have put it outside in the early fall to let it harden off and drop all it's leaves. Then I'd have kept it in an unheated garage or shed until at least mid-January before bringing it into the office again where, with the help of some compact fluorescent light, it would bud out and come out of dormancy for it's new season.
As I said previously, my belief is that these trees need that period of rest in the winter in order to be robust and grow well during their season.
I'm hoping that yours is going dormant inside due to lack of light and that you will find a place for it where it will be at least chilled and dark after it drops all it's leaves.
Of course, I can't be sure what's going on from here. Just my thoughts based on your observation.
Please post a picture.

maveriiick
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Thanks for the info Len,

I have three Chinese elms (CE) and they are all outside currently. I'm in Toronto, and the weather is currently around 10 degrees celsius dropping to near zero overnight. Two of the CE still have ALL their leaves which are very green and robust, the third CE I recently picked up from a nursery where it was housed indoors and was sickly when I got it (missing a lot of leaves and a mix of green and yellow leaves). Anyways, It appears unchanged after I put it out with the others and I wanted to harden it off for dormancy, and I am pretty sure it will be fine. The yellow leaves are firmly attached to the branches and hard to remove so I leave them. I guess for me it just strikes me that the two I owned previously were outdoors all summer and STILL have ALL their leaves into the fall with no yellowing leaves? The 3rd one is either mildly sick (I think it was overwatered in the nursery) and/or is going into dormancy sooner, could that be possible? Or is it a subspecies difference?

MNABAKOWSKI
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I want to post a picture but I can't find out how... This is a strange web site. Any suggestions?

maveriiick
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Get a free photobucket account and use the [IMG] link to add pictures. You upload you images to the account and then link the photos to this forum. Quite easy and is very common practice for many forum websites.

https://photobucket.com/

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Gnome
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MNABAKOWSKI,

We do not host photos here, you must host them elsewhere and link back to us. We have some suggestions for third pasty hosts and simple instructions [url=https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3724]here.[/url]

As noted, Chinese Elms are known for their ability to retain their leaves late into the season so I'm not certain I would attribute this to dormancy issues. Are you keeping it inside or has it been out for the cooler weather?

You have given us very little to go on. Try to add more details please. In particular do you think it possible that the tree dried out too much before this happened?

Norm

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Gnome
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Note:

This also was PM'd and should be posted in public so all can participate.

MNABAKOWSKI wrote:
I got the elm in May. It has been inside since then. Very healthy and happy tree. Gets watered twice a week. Great natural light. It sits on my desk 10 feet from a 12 ft x 40 ft glass atrium wall, so the natural light is abundent... The light is coming from the south. Tuesday the plant was green as usual, Wednesday I came in and the plant had may yellow leaves...none are brown or black.
MNABAKOWSKI,

Sorry about the indoor/outdoor question, I obviously did not read carefully enough. I take it that this tree is at your place of work. The fact that the problem occurred so quickly leads me to think that something external happened. Was the heat turned on suddenly? Can you think of anything that may have changed around this time?

One thing that may have played a role is your watering practices. Watering on a schedule is not really a good idea. But since you managed to keep it alive for 6 months it seems unlikely that watering is the issue.

It may be that you never determine what happened. If you keep a steady course with it and don't panic there is a good chance it will recover. Make sure not to try to overcompensate with excessive watering. Without healthy foliage your tree will not use as much water.

I agree with Len about the need for a dormancy with this species. Mine are outside preparing to enter their dormant period. Not sure what your best course of action would be now though.

Norm

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djlen
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Has the tree ever been fertilized?
Please don't do anything yet, but just let us know. It's a possibility that if you've never given it any nutrients or changed it's soil that it could be losing color because it's hungry. You say it's been growing well and happy and happy plants use nutrients. It's living in a pot with no access to nutrient replacements and may simply have used it's food supply up.
However if it's weak from something else or needs to just go dormant it might not be a good idea to fertilize yet.
How are we progressing with the posting of the images of this tree? Seeing it might help us with the diagnosis. You understand that we are only throwing out possibilities that *could* be the problem.

One more request. Although PM's are nice we can get more information to more people and involve more people and ideas if you post here. So please reply here. :)

Kimmy
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Hi, thanks very much for the responses to our threads.

My Chinese Elm is on my kitchen window ledge as this is the only place in the house that is the brightest, all the other rooms are quite dark. I have noticed the leaves turning yellow, then brown and then falling off for a few weeks to be honest.

When I first got my tree over a year ago I nearly lost it because it had red spider mite and being a Bonsai novice, I had no idea what this was. I had to lots of research and eventually discovered what the problem was. I managed to get some spray and sprayed the tree and after a few days it started to perk up a little and I managed to save my bonsai.

I cant see any mites on it this time but I noticed a similar webbing on it like last time so I have sprayed it again just to make sure that it isnt the spider mites again because it looks likes its dying.

I cant see any new growth on it which it normally has which is why I am so concerned. I don't want to lose my Bonsai as its a remembrance for something special to me so I need all the help I can get. I will try my best to get a photo of it on here so that you can take a look.

Any suggestions on what I should do with it?

Thank you,

Kimmy (UK)

Kimmy
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[url]https://s1013.photobucket.com/albums/af251/KimLouiseTaylor/?albumview=grid[/url]

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djlen
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It worked fine. We saw the pics.

Where do you live and what is the average temp. at this time of year?
It looks like it needs to go out to go dormant.

Marsman
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First thing that came into my head when I saw the tree was "Gah! It needs new soil!" It looks like it's planted in good old dirt, not bonsai soil. It may be pot bound. If you've only had it a short while, you may not know when it was last re-potted. I'd re-pot it in the Spring with a good bonsai soil mix.

Kimmy
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I live near Manchester in England. It our Autumn / Winter now so the outside temperature is probably currently about 12 degrees celcius and quite dull.

I am a Bonsai novice so have no idea what I should be doing with it at the moment. Everyone has told me they are so difficult to look after that I am paranoid about making any changes. I don't know whether it needs re-potting or not?

There isnt as much light now as we are approaching winter so the sun doesnt rise until about 7:40am and then sets just after 4pm in the afternoon. I don't know whether its too cold on the window ledge?

I would appreciate any advice. I agree that the soil doesnt look that great to be honest but I don't know what is normal and what isnt with the Bonsai's.

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Gnome
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Kimmy,
I am a Bonsai novice so have no idea what I should be doing with it at the moment.
Don't worry, we all started out knowing little and progressed from there.
Everyone has told me they are so difficult to look after that I am paranoid about making any changes
There are some things to be aware of but after a while day to day care becomes second nature, don't panic.
I don't know whether it needs re-potting or not?
I'm going to agree with Marsman here, yes it needs re-potting but not until spring. You have some time to learn about this so I won't go there now.

These trees really should have a dormancy period. Do you have an unheated space that is sheltered? Perhaps a shed, garage or does a friend or neighbor have a greenhouse? Also, it will do much better outside during the summer, but again that is not an issue right now.
I don't know whether its too cold on the window ledge?
Definitely not a problem, I allow mine to go completely dormant during the winter so a cool windowsill is not an issue.

Norm

maveriiick
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I have a similar situation Chinese elm that I got from a nursery at a reduced price because it was like yours (lost leaves and some brownish yellow). I placed it outside (about 2-3 weeks ago) after removing the surface rocks and moss so I could keep the soil moisture level assessed and watered it only when the soil appeared to have dried. It seems to have stabilized, and I wouldn't expect it to flourish at this time of year.

As such I would recommend you leave it outside on a window sill and let the colder weather take the tree into some dormancy for the winter. Water only when the soil is dry about inch from the surface down. I'm in Toronto and the current day and night temperatures are 10 and 0 degrees CELSIUS respectively. The sun here is intermittent and somewhat winding on occasion. I also have two other health Chinese elms that sit along side and they look just fine. The trees will be in a cold room once the temp drops below zero. You can even put it in the refrigerator, but lighting may still be needed if leaves are still attached I believe.

These trees seem to do better with a bit of cold weather from my understanding.

PS. Lift the tree out of the pot if you can and inspect the soil and roots to see if there are any possible pest (I.e. mealy bugs) and to see if the roots have begun circling the pot equating to the tree being root bound. If the soil feels wet and has been so for a while you may be watering too much. Watering is by far one of the biggest errors when keeping bonsai.
Last edited by maveriiick on Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

maveriiick
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I'm curious, how long and from when to when do most posters place their Chinese Elms into Dormancy? This will be my first winter with my three chinese elms. I read somewhere that one person brought their Chinese Elm indoors in January to allow it to bud out and begin growth. Is that too early?

Marsman
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I don't know whether its too cold on the window ledge?

Definitely not a problem, I allow mine to go completely dormant during the winter so a cool windowsill is not an issue.


Mine's outside dug into the side of the compost heap for the winter. Leaves all dropped. Mine is definitely an outdoor tree. I will not be bringing it in early.

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maveriiick,

My usual practice is to allow a full dormancy, not to bring them inside at all, ever. This past winter though I did try the short dormancy/early spring tactic with one smaller tree and everything is fine with the tree now, it has been outside since last spring and still green. Evidently this species can do well with a brief dormancy but I don't think that I would try to eliminate it entirely.

Norm

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djlen
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Kimmy, your plant needs a period of rest or dormancy. I suggest that you put it outside in a protected spot and let the leaves fall as they normally would in nature.
After they fall, put it into a garage or unheated shed where it can be dark because the leaves will be gone and there is no need for light until it comes out of dormancy in the spring.
When the weather warms in your area in March or so, you can take it out and it will come out of dormancy naturally and leaf out for you.
Some people keep these trees inside for long periods of time and although they can survive inside with the proper care, they still need a period of rest which I think is what yours is trying to do currently.
It's seeing the shorter periods of daylight outside and reacting to it by losing it's color in preparation for the winter rest.

Kimmy
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Thank you to everyone who hs commented on my post and given me some advice.

I can completely understand what you are all saying about dormancy and I will follow your advice about letting the leaves drop of and letting it naturally go in to that state. Do you think the weather outside will be too cold it if gets frosty in the mornings or rains quite hard?

We have a weather warning this week and it has been extremely windy. If I leave it on the windowsill indoors will it still go dormant or should I just put it in the shed until the Spring like sugested?

I did spray it with bug spray the other day and the leaves have stopped dropping off as much but I am not sure whether this is just coincidence?

I agree that it may need re-potting but as suggested I will not think about this until the spring.

I worry about putting it out in the summer as we don't get much sun in the UK and it always raining so would it be safe to leave it outside in the summer or should I just put it out during the day and maybe bring it in at night?

Sorry for all teh questions but I just want to make sure that I don't lose my tree.

Thanks for all your help so far.

Kimmy

maveriiick
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It should be ok to go outside. I keep mine on the window sill and the temperature is currently dropping to 0 to -1 degrees C here in Toronto. I saw another bonsai enthusiast the other day and he showed me his chinese elm outside in his garden buried with all the foliage still attached. The chinese elm was basically going to be outside all winter and the weather in Toronto can get pretty cold in the winter sometimes averaging -30 degrees C. So my advise is put it into the ground (encased in a nylon sock) and covered with soil, mulch or smal stones, OR keep it in a cold room or garage where the temperature remains around freezing (0 degrees C). Basically protect the roots.

I'm keeping mine in a cold room over the winter in some mulch.

As for summer, this tree will be much happier outside regardless of light levels I would think.

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djlen
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Hi Kimmy -

If you're apprehensive about putting it outside which is understandable, I would suggest starting it out under an eave of the house to keep some of the frost off until it can 'harden off' and get used to the colder temps.
Or if you have a shed or garage with a window, particularly a south facing window that would be even better.
The object is to let it cool down gradually and since you're getting a bit of a late start a shed or south side of the house or under an eave of the house would be good options.
Once it loses all it's leave it can be in total darkness as it will be dormant and not need light until warmer weather sets in in the spring.
Please don't be afraid to ask questions. Asking is better than making a huge mistake that will jeopardize the tree.

Marsman
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Here's my baby all dug in for the winter. Can't wait to work on her in the Spring. I have about 3 trees that I'm going to make out of this sprawling monster by air layering different branches and then using the base as a tree as well. The trunk, which is half buried right now, is beautiful!

[img]https://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae50/marsman61/Bonsai/Chinese%20Elm/85a1da31.jpg[/img]

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djlen
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Wow, the options are endless with it. Good luck!!
Is it an American Elm or a Chinese Elm?

I ask because I've never seen U. parvifolia in my area at a nursery or garden center.

Marsman
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Yep, it's a Chinese Elm.

[img]https://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae50/marsman61/Bonsai/Chinese%20Elm/62c5d234.jpg[/img]

Kimmy
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Thank you very much for all your help and comments. I may put it outside under the garden chairs which are stacked in thr corner of the garden next to the house. This will expose it to the elements but not fully.

Thank you all for your advice, I really do appreciate it, you have a great forum here.

Many thanks

Kim



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