Starter trees? Help.

builder0101 · Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:29 pm

Hi,

I am new to the art of bonsai and would like to create a Bonsai from scratch. I am having a hard time finding a site where I can purchase seedlings etc. I do not want a ficus which I can buy at any box store. I would like a Little Laf Maple or Japanese Maple type. I am also interested in a Bristlecone Pine Bonsai. any suggestions on where to buy?

Thanks,

Builder.

GardenerX · Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:56 pm

Hello,

I looked up the pine for you and found this link where you can buy one,

https://www.coldstreamfarm.net/p-59-bristlecone-pine-pinus-aristata.aspx

BTW, nice looking tree I never heard of this one it looks cool...

builder0101 · Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:03 pm

Thanks gardener

I took a nite shot of a bristle cone pine at the grand canyon it is my favorite photo. I always thoght that the bristle cone looked naturally like a bonsai. Natures Bonsai if you will. They grow so slowly and the foliage to trunk size is in nature is amazing.

Builder.

Gnome · Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:10 pm

builder0101,

Hello and welcome to the site. Unfortunately neither Japanese Maples nor most Pinus species are suited to indoor culture.

In [url=https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=76420&highlight=indoor+pines#76420]this thread[/url] there are several suggestions for Pinus that might be more successful inside.

You might also want to Google 'Willow Leaf Ficus' and 'Chinese Pepper' These might present a more appealing image.

Norm

GardenerX · Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:10 pm

sounds awesome, accualy I'm now thinking of getting one to test as a Bonsai that website is quite cheap I think so I'm going to try it.

And your right it does look like a natural Bonsai well I'm just a beginer at the art but from the photo on the site it looks like a bonsai sooo.....

anyways let me know if you get one

GOOD LUCK

builder0101 · Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:00 am

Hi Gnome,

Thanks for the welcome. I knew ai was out of luck with the Acers and Pinus just wanted to give you guys (and gals) a feel for the look I want. I am open to any suggestions. I like the look of the small leaves which are more to scale in relation to the size of the trunk I am sure you all know what I mean even better than I. Although I would like some units for indoors I would be interested in creating some outdoor units that I can enjoy during the Spring Summer and Fall. That would allow me to use the species that I really want. Can I ovewinter them in a coldframe? I am in Chicago Zone 5 (Zone 4 last winter) rough year.

Thanks,

Mike.

builder0101 · Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:08 am

Hey Gardener,

I am happy to have introdouced you to something new. I fell in love withe the Bristle Cone the first time I saw it. I think I can overwinter one here they grow in the high dester where it gets quite cold. With the proper care (mulch blanket) I may succeed. May be too long dormant?
I will have to consider the pots as the winters here will be hard on them I may need utilitarian units to pot them in and then place that in a more decorative unit during the growing season. I will try to find my photo of the grand canyon specimen and post it. Or you can go see it it is right on the path that everyone walks past at the main obsevatory area on the South rim.

Thanks again,

Mike.

GardenerX · Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:27 am

haha well I don't know about going to see the canyon right now but I was comeing on to let you know about the Ponytail Palm, very interesting specium you should look into it I'm accualy growing a few ouside and a few inside to test the difference here's some pic's of the ones I keep inside

[img]https://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii365/dragondude_2009/004-6.jpg[/img]

and this is an old one

[url=https://s549.photobucket.com/albums/ii365/dragondude_2009/?action=view&current=P324_330x370.jpg][img]https://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii365/dragondude_2009/th_P324_330x370.jpg[/img][/url]

builder0101 · Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:43 am

Wow thats pretty cool lookslike one of those troll eraser tops. I am going to a nursery tomorrow. This nursery has a massive assortment of indoor plants and they are big into Bonsai I should be able to get something ti wet my appetite. Now that I have seen some of the Ficus with the dwarfed leaves maby I would be smart to start out simple. Though I was never one to take it easy. I just don't wangt to fail catastrophically on my first go. Is there a particular book anyone can rec or should I just keep digging on the inernet? I am sure it is all here.

GardenerX · Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:55 am

well I accualy went to the libary today and checked out a book on Bonsai it's called - 'The Bonsai Workshop' VERY INFORMATIVE

builder0101 · Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:00 am

Found photo cant figure out hou to post. Computers are definately not my strong suit.

[/img]

GardenerX · Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:03 am

here's the link to tellyou how to post pics

https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3724

builder0101 · Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:13 am

Thanks Gardener 2:15 AM here will do it tomorrow. Goodnite and thanks again.

Gnome · Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:19 am

builder0101,

I like the look of the small leaves which are more to scale in relation to the size of the trunk

Yes, I understand. Since you mentioned that you can grow outside as well, two species that you can grow outside in summer and bring inside are Chinese Elm and Pomegranate. Both of these will do well outside and, after a brief dormancy in early winter, can be brought inside. Unless you have a good southern exposure supplemental lighting will almost be a must for many species.

Can I ovewinter them in a coldframe? I am in Chicago Zone 5 (Zone 4 last winter) rough year.

The traditional temperate species must be allowed their dormancy period. Yes a cold frame can be use, but you have to be aware of how you position it, you do not want it to get too hot indirect sun. Big temperature swings will very likely, I don't use this technique, cause you trouble.

Is there a particular book anyone can rec or should I just keep digging on the inernet?

If you are looking for an overview of indoor trees try 'Bonsai in Your Home' by Paul Lesniewicz. This book give a basic overview of bonsai int he front half, and I do mean basic. The second half is more valuable in my opinion. It is a sort of encyclopedia of suitable indoor species, giving a full page picture and one of text for numerous species.

Jerry Meislik offers two books, one devoted to Ficus and the other a more general indoor guide. I have seen neither but the first has been reviewed favorably by Ficus growers, both can be found on his website. The volume GardenerX mentions is, I believe, by Herb L. Gustafson and is worthwhile. It is offered below in that spinning thing. Another book that others have recommended is seen there as well, The Bonsai Survival Manual'

Stone Lantern Publishing offers several books that are species specific. Two that I am aware of are Pines and Junipers, also below. I have the book on Pines and it is informative, but be aware that these are actually reprints of article that have appeared in the, now defunct, magazine Bonsai Today.

There have been several threads about books that could be found using the search feature. Or, why not check out your local library as GX has done?

Make sure to let us know what you find at the nursery.

Norm

builder0101 · Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:24 pm

Thanks for all of the info Norm I will let you know what I do. I hope to go shopping today god ( I mean wife ) willing. Lots to do on the honey do.

Mike.

bonsaiboy · Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:14 pm

I would recommend a podocarpus if you are into indoor conifer bonsais. Particularly a podocarpus gracilior. They do better than most inside, they don't need as much light as some others, and they don't need top be chilled during winter.

builder0101 · Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:38 pm

[img]https://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/builder0101/PhotosSantore001.jpg[/img]

IMG]https://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/builder0101/PhotosSantore002.jpg[/IMG]

Well here is what I bought. it is a multistem varigated Ficus. What do you guys think? Have had it for about a week, and it seems to be aclimating well. Can I top it? Not sure how. I think I should remove the small lower branches and whack the top 1/3 or so than let it aclimate for a few weeks then root pruning time. Yes or no?

Thanks,

MIke.

builder0101 · Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:40 pm

[img]https://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/builder0101/PhotosSantore002.jpg[/img]

I think this will load the second pic it shows the base of the plant. What do you guys think?

builder0101 · Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:44 pm

[img]https://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/builder0101/DSC_0347.jpg[/img]

Heres my Grand Canyon pine nite shot. I am no photographer but I like it.

Rosaelyn · Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:08 pm

I would be uncomfortable to suggest you do too many stressful alterations this time of year. A ficus (being a tropical) might handle it, but it will be more vigorous and quick to recover from this in the spring.

Patience, grasshopper.

But as for when spring comes, ficus are very receptive to heavy pruning. If you wish to top it, it is probably best to cut it back to a branch you wish to keep as the new top and wire that branch up.

Ficus also tend to root very well from cuttings, so this may be an idea for the pieces you remove.

builder0101 · Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:18 pm

Thanks Rosaelyn. I am an impatient grasshopper (maby that should be my nic) don't know if I can stand to look at this HOUSEPLANT till spring I will probably end up pruning and failing. Purchasing plants and practacing propogating them sounds fun I guess I can experiment with soils water light and plants for a few months. So a few branches that I know will come off are OK to prune & root right. Does anyone have advice on root toner for ficus or just water? Should I cut just below a bud/node? Don't know the correct term. I also purchased an Aralia Balfouriana small unit toped it. It is fairing very poorly. I'll provide photo maby It is garbage maby I can save it. Maby I should change the soil etc. not sure what to use I see a lot of cactus vermiculite pearlite combos also some crushed volcanic rock or pine bark mulch. A landscape supply owned by a friend sells fine pinebark mulch I'll bet a third of the mulch is 1/4" or smaller.

[img]https://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/builder0101/bonsai1003.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/builder0101/bonsai2003-2.jpg[/img]

builder0101 · Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:14 pm

Well I am getting pretty deep pretty quick. I know this may not be the best time of year for some do this stuff however I want to play. If it all dies I will be sad but at least I will familiarize myself with some tecniques. Who knows maby some success.

These are some ficus cuttings I am trying to root. I purchased some pearlite and sifted out the fines then I used a 1/4" chicken wire and screened pine bark mulch for the fines I mixed this at aprox 80/20 parlite to pine bark. I then added about a tablespoon of the soil from the pot the ficus was in just in case there are some beneficial microbes. I trimmed up the leaves some I left more leaves some just a few one I planted so that a V was just above the medium, one I buried a V just below the medium, one I planted so that a V was just at the medium, a few are just straight stems with no branching. On a few I cut a few of the leaves in half with stainless sissors. I read something about that I think it had to do with the plant losing water throught its leaves.

[img]https://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/builder0101/Ficuscuttings.jpg[/img]

This is a tray to an old pot which I broke It is nice aesthetically and a good size I think. I driled holes for draonage and wire. It may be a little shallow. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how much I can mound up the medium over the pot? also can I root over rock style with moneytrees? I have some grey slate which is rustic and cool looking It is soft slate and very talcy. Is talcy a word? I would like to set a few staggered on eachother and layered like outcroppings. Then root over any suggestions on probability of success? any suggestions on how to root over?

[img]https://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/builder0101/Firstpot.jpg[/img]

This is the medium I created It is 60/30/10 pearlite/pine bark/volcanic pumice. I went ti Home Depo and got one of thier bags and went over to the bagged volcanic rock and picked ip a few pounds on the ground between pallets. I told the manager that I had done this and was it ok he said sure. When I got the rock home I wraped it up in the corner of a canvas dropcloth and bashed it with a hammer I screened it and was rewarded with perfect 1/8"-1/4" volcanic fines. Does anyone have any thoughts on my mix good or bad?

[img]https://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/builder0101/Bonsaimix.jpg[/img]

Well this is the pot setup so far wire pea gravel plastic.

[img]https://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/builder0101/Potsetup.jpg[/img]

This is the money tree I got at Home Depot today It was a poorly braided unit which was easily unbraided I want to put it in the pot above there are three units which I want to do a forest type look. Any thoughts?
[img]https://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/builder0101/Moneytree1.jpg[/img]

Any criticizm is welcome.

Gnome · Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:51 pm

builder0101,

Your mix looks pretty good, especially for tropicals. I doubt that you'll be able to mound it up much though. I'm glad to see that you have embraced the concepts of a free draining medium of relatively large and consistent size.

I have a thread about root over rock with Schefflera [url=https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18867]here.[/url] I'm not sure how relevant it is to your plans as described but it may help.

The Ficus cuttings stand a better chance of striking if you enclose the pot in a clear plastic bag and give it a good misting before you close it up.

You seem to have really jumped in with both feet. What are you doing for lighting?

Norm

builder0101 · Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:20 am

Here is my bagged Ficus thanks. And thanks for the thread I will check it out now. My lighting is under cabinet 20 watt halogen bulbs they don't seem to be putting off too much heat at the 6" distance that my plant tops are from them. I have read a lot of comments here on lighting and it seems like I do not need a crazy grow lite just a lite that is aprox 6" not too hot for plant and long enough duraton. I want to bring them to a western facing window in the afternoons as often as I can that should be good for them as long as there is no drastic temp change right? By the way how often should I mist my plants and or Bonsai.

Thanks.

P.S. What is the proper etiquette here when someone replies to my questions should I address the person who answers me or is that understood. Don't want to be rude.

[img]https://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/builder0101/BaggedFicus.jpg[/img]

builder0101 · Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:33 am

Hey Norm you saw the pot with the plastic over the pea gravel this should do forspreading the roots In preparation for going over the rocks right. Also whan I do place the unit over the rock I can wire it down right? I think the three will intertwine thier roots and should install as a single unit. My idea is for one to be the tallest say on the left as you are looking then the next tallest in the middle both of these slightly uptight the shortest on the right would be oriented out to the right. Of course I am not sure about the habit of the Money Tree maby won't cooperate.

Has anyone done a Bonsai with an American Hawthorne? with the natural table top habit I bet it would be great.

Thanks

builder0101 · Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:27 am

Well here is my first attempt.

[img]https://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/builder0101/1stBonsai.jpg[/img]

Gnome · Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:58 am

builder0101,

My lighting is under cabinet 20 watt halogen bulbs they don't seem to be putting off too much heat at the 6" distance that my plant tops are from them. I have read a lot of comments here on lighting and it seems like I do not need a crazy grow lite just a lite that is aprox 6" not too hot for plant and long enough duraton.

I've never used Halogen lighting, most of us use fluorescents for a cheap, reasonably efficient set up.

What is the proper etiquette here when someone replies to my questions should I address the person who answers me or is that understood. Don't want to be rude.

I don't think too many people would get upset if you do not address them by name, it is just a habit I picked up. Don't worry were a pretty easy going bunch here.

By the way how often should I mist my plants and or Bonsai.

Tropicals, like Ficus, really seem to like the moisture so mist as often as you like. A humidity tray will help in this regard too.

Hey Norm you saw the pot with the plastic over the pea gravel this should do forspreading the roots In preparation for going over the rocks right.

I wondered about that. It might help some but if you intend to do a R-O-R you might have been better off growing the plant out in a nursery container for a season or even more.

Although it is understandable to want something to show, usually bonsai are grown out in larger containers, only being placed in bonsai pots when a certain level of development is reached. Being is a small container will serve to slow the development of young material. Don't let it worry you too much we all make missteps early on. Just tuck that bit of information away for your next purchase.

Norm

builder0101 · Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:48 pm

Norm,

I guess if I wantd instant bonsai I could have gone that route but that is not what I want I will hav to slow down and enjoy the journey.

Thanks a lot

Mike

Rosaelyn · Sun Oct 25, 2009 3:58 pm

lol Well, I suppose as long as you are enjoying yourself, that's all that counts, because it sure looks like you've been going crazy with your trees.

How is that Aralia doing? And how does your ficus look now that its had a "hair cut"?

builder0101 · Sun Oct 25, 2009 4:30 pm

The arialia is yellowing anddeveloping brown patches within the leaves and overall unhappy. I would like ot change the soil but do not want to stress it further. I am just trying to let it recover if possible. It has a very strong and healthy looking root system so I think it should recover. I mist all of my plants several times a day.

The Ficus I only gave a minimal trim one to obtain cuttings and the other reason is that I want to take it slow ant not stress it too much. the milk came out of the cuts so quickly and under pressure that it pushed right through the vaseline. Good circulatory system I guess. I did not want to stress it out too much.

I think the pot I bought for it may be too big. I am going to put it into a training pot first though. I have no idea what to use for a training pot do I want a shallow pot like a Bonsai pot or does that matter? It is in a 6" plastic pot now, and if I was going to use it as a house plant I would be upsizing the pot soon. How muchsmalle rshoud it be?

Kind of afraid of the pruning process.

Thanks.

Any criticizm is welcome.

Rosaelyn · Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:10 pm

I read that Aralias like lots of humidity and lots of sun. This is the only reason I can think that it might be giving you problems. Is it sitting near a vent where it is getting hit with dry air?

As for the ficus trimming. Don't worry about the oozing from the cuts. It's normal and latex-like so it tends to cover its own wounds for the most part.

I still prefer to use cut paste on large cuts, but it's probably not necessary.

Training pots are usually the same basic shape as a bonsai pot, but deeper. If you trim the roots in the spring, you could cut off the bottom of a water or soda bottle and repot the tree on top of that to begin training the roots to grow out rather than down.

builder0101 · Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:40 pm

No hot air. lots of artificial light. I move it or east win in morning and west win in afternoon and artificial light in eve. I cut it down by 2/3 a few days after I got it home. The top I cut was the green healthy part of the plant the bottom 1/3 was not that happy looking to begin with. ???

Well maby I will prune some more it is a 8ish stem unit don't know if I should just choose one or leave a few? Maby I shold get rid of everything I don't need and then wait a few weeks andlet it talk to me. It is fantastically healthy and groning like crazy right now. Am I misteken or are there ariel roots hanging from the branches?

Thanks.

Mike.

Rosaelyn · Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:42 pm

It's very likely. In humid conditions, ficus grow aerial roots very easily. If you leave multiple trunks for your ficus, they are likely to grow together with the right conditions.

https://www.tropicalbonsai.com/images/Plaza%20del%20Sol%202002%20sept/Ficus_Banyan.jpg

For inspiration.

builder0101 · Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:07 pm

Nice maby I will keave the three or four largest trunks remove all else & see how it looks. My issue I guess us that I can not see it yet I guess I wil probably do it wrong and learn. I do not have a humidifier on my furnace although I intend to install one hopefully I can afford one this year. Will a humidity tray underneath the pot and daily misting be sufficient? I like the idea of the sriel roots kind of like spanish moss-ish. I know it is all subjective but are the ariel roots typically desirable?.

Thanks,
Mike.

Rosaelyn · Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:44 pm

Well, the aerial roots make it look more like what occurs in nature, which is usually the goal with a bonsai - recreating a tree that looks like an old, normal-sized tree growing in nature, only in miniature.

But, like you said, everything is relative. Like with any plant or garden you keep, it should be pleasing to you first and foremost.

But for it to truly be a bonsai, there are guidelines. One of these is to have an odd number of trees in a group planting - which is what your ficus will be until they begin to grow together. Just something to think about.

As for creating a humid environment for your ficus, the humidity tray and misting are good. To help this along a lil bit more, I have moist, long-strand sphagnum moss wrapped loosely around the base of my ficus. It won't promote the aerial roots from the branches, but it does help strengthen the aerial roots already started and improves the nebari.

builder0101 · Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:37 pm

[img]https://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/builder0101/weepinglarch.jpg[/img]

This as if you did not know is a weeping larch. A deciduous conifer. What an awesome Bonsai it would make have you ever seen one?

Thanks for the stuff onr the ariel roots and the nebari should I weave the moss through the multiple trunks or just around them in general?

Thanks and thanks,

Mike.

Rosaelyn · Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:02 pm

Any tree is possible to train, but some are more difficult than others. I adore the idea of a weeping bonsai of any species (especially a Mexican Weeping Pine), but the more I look into the idea, the more such a bonsai looks difficult to train.

https://www.bonsaiboy.com/catalog/product1882.html

That is a 17 year old version of the bonsai you'd like. It appears to be a great start to something beautiful, but from the look of the development it would take several more years and quite a tall bonsai to perfect the cascading branches and foliage.

I hope this does not discourage you. Just realize, as I am, that it would be quite a long undertaking, requiring much patience.

builder0101 · Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:50 pm

Yea they are slow. I have a weeping larch in my yard it is a 7'-8' unit. It was so butiful and lush when I bought it unfortunately it took a devastating hit in the transition from nursey stock to establishing itself in my lawn. now 6 years later it still has only recovered about 1/3 of its former glory. Theis El Ninio winter should bring some milder temps hopefully it will help. I need to wrap it in burlap for the winter this year and hope that helps. I have carpet juniper at its base wich gives it a nice blanket although I do not know if the juniper is of any other benefit or negative consequence. Maby I will take a photo of it if you would be interested.

builder0101 · Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:14 pm

Aralias like lots of water but I have to beleive that they do not want to be constantly wet. The medium they are in from the nursery will not dry. I think I may want to re-pot it in my soil less mix. If I do not it will prob die anyway. I am thinking abput removing the soil medium throught a process of rinsing in water and combing. I do not think I should root prune except maby just a little. I have a pot to change it into which is the same size pot but just a smidge larger I mean just a tiny bit. Only problem is it has a tray attached maby not good will reatin water. What do you guys think.

builder0101 · Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:30 pm

Well here is my Ficus after a haircut. Don't know what I am doing. I read a lot of stuff about No branches botton 1/3 then branches then no branches next 1/3 and no branches crossing eachother and no branches going in front etc. I cut my most important branch while making a chop of the main (front) trunk oops. Nkot to mention the fact that I wanted to make the cut from front to back on an angle downward and I made the cut from bac to front leaving the wound at the front oops. Design change. Any advice?

[img]https://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/builder0101/Haircut.jpg[/img]

This is the soil the Ficus came in Should I change it now? Can I change it now? I have only watered it twice in two weeks it stays wet for at least a week, and the air is dry in my home. I pulled a tiny bit of soil off a very small ammount of roots at the base. I want to thicken/harden off the roots. I would like a rot over rock style eventually. Any advice?

[img]https://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/builder0101/Soil.jpg[/img]

Thanks.