maveriiick
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Sageretia issue?

Hello, I have three (3) Chinese Sweet Plums and the first 2 I started with had issues (brown leaf tips) that was progressive over time. After taking with the nursery that I bought them. I was told to use more acidic water (I.e. rain water) to aid with the health of these 2 plants. I use tap water reduced to a PH of 5.5-6 with the addition of vinegar.

Anyways, to make a long story short I defoliated both bonsai and one came back rather quickly, but the leaves are thinner in texture an noticably lighter green when compared to the 3rd Sageretia I received. The other one has not really rebounded to the same degree with only a few sprouts. Pictures are attaches.

Lastly, the worst of the three has only grown back a few leaves and has otherwise remained rather unchanged, with 2-3 new growth bids. I water them maybe once a week or two as the water seems to be absorbed more slowly by the weaker and I wait until the soil is near dry. I even put a fan on them to dry the soil a little quicker as Iwould like to avoid any root rot from the prolonged soil moisture.

I guess I want to get people suggestions on how to address these issues and if anyone can explain the lighter green leaves of thinner texture on the 2 older bonsai versus the darker green leaves on the healthy one, which has courser leaves as well.

[img]https://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq320/victoriiinox/IMG_0667.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq320/victoriiinox/IMG_0665.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq320/victoriiinox/IMG_0668.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq320/victoriiinox/IMG_0669.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq320/victoriiinox/IMG_0629.jpg[/img]

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Gnome
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maveriiick,

This is not a species that I am familiar with, you obviously know more about them than I.

Are they all in the same mix?
I water them maybe once a week or two as the water seems to be absorbed more slowly by the weaker and I wait until the soil is near dry. I even put a fan on them to dry the soil a little quicker as Iwould like to avoid any root rot from the prolonged soil moisture.
This might indicate a drainage issue or perhaps they are over-potted. By using the fan to overcome wet soil you are inadvertently drying the air.

I wonder about using vinegar at every watering. I have used it occasionally for erracious species like Azaleas, but not at every watering. Are they all getting the same treatment?

Also relevant is your lighting but since one is doing well that does not seem likely. Sorry I don't have more, perhaps someone else has some ideas.

https://www.bonsai4me.com/SpeciesGuide/Sageretia.html

Norm

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djlen
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I am also unfamiliar with the "Japanese Sweet Plum". Where did you get them and did you buy them together?
My only suggestion is that you separate them. If the one showing the signs of failing health is diseased or has a problem with insects it should be quarantined until you know what the cause is.
Sorry I cannot be of more help. But I am very curious as to the identity of this plant.

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djlen
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Looks like it may also be called a Sageretia Theezans or "Chinese Bird Plum"
and some of the ones pictured here are beautiful:

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=SAGERETIA+THEEZANS&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B3DVFA_en___US345&ie=UTF-8&aq=t&oq=japanese+sweet+plums

But it also sounds like they are a bit temperamental to keep.

Don't know whether this will help or not:
https://www.bonsai4me.com/SpeciesGuide/Sageretia.html

maveriiick
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Still looking for more suggestions, I've exhausted internet sites for an answer. I'm thinking of repotting the sick one in Turface or diatomaceous earth to see if that could help with possible root rot. Is this a good idea?

Rosaelyn
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If they have been recently repotted, then I don't think I would chance repotting again just yet. But if not, then a high Turface or other inorganic percentage in your mixture might help. Just remember that even in a tropical kept indoors, it may be advantageous to hold off until spring.

Also, if you've recently repotted them, this may explain why they are struggling through the defoliation.

What kind of mix are you currently using? The two in bonsai pots look to have a coarse mixture, but it's hard to tell in the deeper potted tree. The potted tree looks like it might be potting soil?

maveriiick
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The problematic sweet plums were repotted in the summer and one flourished (somewhat but leaves are lighter green and some leaf tips are browning now) while the other only sprouted a few leaves on one branch, which have remained and rather unchanged (maybe less). I used "bonsai soil" sold to me by the same nursery that sold me the sweet plums and was told that this soil mix was ideal. The third sweet plum which is growing like a weed, had wood chips and what looks like to be salt like crystals in the mix and I am pretty sure that the soil composition appears to be very important in the care of sweet plums.

I think I will have to repot the most problematic one with Turface/DE/Hydroton, as I believe (although I haven't checked) the roots are dark brown suggesting root rot, which will likely need to be trimmed off.

Rosaelyn
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Well, I cannot speak for the "bonsai soil" that you bought, but usually they are decent soil mixtures (the one sold at my local nursery is mostly Turface and pine bark). Their big downside is price. I can mix at least 5 times the quantity sold in a bag of bonsai soil for the same price. So, small scale, bonsai soil is good. Just not if you have many trees to pot. :)

As for the leaves on the recovering Sweet Plum. It looks normal from your pics to have new foliage come in lighter green and darken with age.
Last edited by Rosaelyn on Tue Oct 20, 2009 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

maveriiick
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The light green leaves have been there for a number of months so I don't think it has to do with the newnest of the leaves. The sweet plum that is doing well has the ideal leaf development. Red leaf buds turn light green and then darken very quickly. The 2 problematic sweet plums just stay light, and I don't think it's chlorosis as the fertilizer I've used has iron in it.


The salt aspect/content in my tapwater is unknown to me, and the all three sweet plums are under fluorescent lights (broad spectrum for plants) with humidity try underneath. These trees are alive but struggling unfortunately. I wish I knew how t bring them in line with the one that is flourishing.

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Here are some useful links for watering bonsai.

[url=https://www.helpfulgardener.com/bonsai/03/care.html]How to water bonsai[/url]

Helpful Gardener [url=https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=878]forum post about watering bonsai[/url].

[url=https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6197]Hard water[/url]

maveriiick
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I try this from a different perspective. Can Anyone share with me their soil mixture/ingredients for Chinese Sweet Plum?

Rosaelyn
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Bonsai soil is bonsai soil, no matter what type of tree it is. Being a tropical, your Sweet Plums probably prefer something retaining some moisture, so a modest amount of organic in the mixture would be ideal.

I've found that pine bark mulch/soil conditioner makes for a very good organic component. I use it 2 parts bark to 3 parts NAPA floor dry/Turface MVP. (My pines seem to be liking this mix a lot!)

Another good mixture is a 1-1-4 mixture of starter chicken grit (boy did I get a funny look buying that! hehe), sphagnum peat moss and floor dry/Turface. (I have my ficus in this to very good result thusfar.)

I picked up both of these mixes from the Ann Arbor Bonsai Society. I've discovered it seems you can get five different soil mixture ideas from five different bonsai enthusiasts. So I will not deem to say this is the only way to mix. It really comes down to your location and watering habits.

Just remember to sift out the fines and discard any overly large pieces of bark. :)

I don't remember where the link is, but someone mentioned using strictly long-strand sphagnum moss for a potting medium here on the forums. (Which I intend to try out at some point!) Then, there is the Bonsai Soil thread:

https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3422

There is also an article by the Helpful Gardener himself regarding potting and soil:

https://www.helpfulgardener.com/bonsai/03/soil.html

Hope this helps! :D

maveriiick
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To repot this tree into an inorganic medium, would I transfer the root ball with soil surrounding it, or would I clean off all the soils and place in the medium? And water after?

Rosaelyn
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Okie, first off, this is not the right season to be repotting. Second, you said you just repotted them over the summer and then you defoliated them. Third, if one is flourishing in the same potting mix, that doesn't sound like the problem.

I don't think repotting right now is a good idea.

You mentioned you think one of the trees has root rot. Are all the trees draining properly? Are you allowing the soil to dry some between watering?

Maybe instead of new soil, a moisture meter would be a better solution. Then, there would be no question of when to water. Because it is very possible that they are using water in different quantities, since their amounts of foliage are varying. So if you are watering them all equally, this may be compounding the problem.

maveriiick
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Rosaelyn wrote:Okie, first off, this is not the right season to be repotting. Second, you said you just repotted them over the summer and then you defoliated them. Third, if one is flourishing in the same potting mix, that doesn't sound like the problem.

I don't think repotting right now is a good idea.

You mentioned you think one of the trees has root rot. Are all the trees draining properly? Are you allowing the soil to dry some between watering?

Maybe instead of new soil, a moisture meter would be a better solution. Then, there would be no question of when to water. Because it is very possible that they are using water in different quantities, since their amounts of foliage are varying. So if you are watering them all equally, this may be compounding the problem.
Both trees are not doing well, I have always been waiting until the top layer is dry. I am well aware of this. These were the first 2 bonsai I bought last year about this time, and the only ones causing me issues. The more recent one, is currently flourishing well. That is why there is something with the soil or the roots that is problematic. I would rather (in a last ditch effort) try putting the trees in an inorganic soil after trimming away any root root in the hopes of saving the trees.

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Gnome
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maveriiick,

Let me see if I am understanding the situation correctly. You have had two for some time, these have been re-potted this summer and are not doing well. A third is fine and not at issue. Of the two that were re-potted you used the same prepared bonsai mix for both. These are the ones potted in the brown oval pot and the purple plastic one. Is all this correct?

The soil in the ceramic pot looks pretty good from here but you are in a better position to judge it than we are. The soil in the plastic pot looks a little different, but again that may not really be the case.

As I mentioned I am not familiar with this species and I am not encouraging yo to re-pot but if you do I feel I should mention a few things. Bonsai soils are generally soilless but not necessarily 100% inorganic. Most plants will do well in a mix that includes some organic material, this does not mean soil but is usually bark in pieces similar in size to the balance of your mix.

Harry Harrington (Bonsai4me) suggests a basic mix which, to me, implies that bark is included. Not sure how much, one third seems like a place to start. Remember, bonsai soil is all about consistent size, removing the fines and providing excellent drainage.

Norm

SteveP
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If it helps at all, I believe my homebrew greenhouse did my plant the power of good (see thread)... taken it out now due to Daylight Savings Time and the light issue, but the humidity really does seem to have helped.

maveriiick
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I'm trying hydroton on my sageretia now and it had significant root rot (removed rotted roots and treated root ball with hydrogen peroxide). Pellets are 8 to 16 mm in diameter and look like meatballs. Appear to be very stable and durable. I read somewhere that they wick water away from roots and as such need multiple waterings a day (I.e. 3-4 times). I hope it works.

maveriiick
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When I cleaned the roots of root rot, I came across this one root with a large growth on it (about 1 cm diameter). Any idea? It looked like a raspberry, very lobulated but hard like wood. Did a Google search on the closest thing was a ROOT NEMATODE, which does not appear to be a good thing for plants.

[img]https://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq320/victoriiinox/IMG_0699.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq320/victoriiinox/IMG_0701.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq320/victoriiinox/IMG_0702.jpg[/img]

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djlen
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Interesting. What is the consistency of that thing? Is it hard or gelatinous or what?

maveriiick
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djlen wrote:Interesting. What is the consistency of that thing? Is it hard or gelatinous or what?
It was hard and the consistency of soft-wood, yet kind slimmy, but that could have been the fact that I washed down the roots to clear the soil. I'm thinking this could have been the reason this Sweet plum seemed to be stunted and thrived poorly for so long.

Also came across this info:

https://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Agrobacterium

Causes something called a crown gall, which is commonly lethal to plants.

https://gardening.wsu.edu/library/lpro004/lpro004.htm
https://pmo.umext.maine.edu/factsht/Crowngal.htm
https://www.ipm.iastate.edu/ipm/hortnews/node/780

peejay
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maveriiick wrote:To repot this tree into an inorganic medium, would I transfer the root ball with soil surrounding it, or would I clean off all the soils and place in the medium? And water after?
.

I agree with this. All my trees are in an inorganic soil medium now.

I have justtoday re potted a Sagaretia into 100% Pink Cat Litter: [Sophisticat] (NB NON CLUMPING type). Apparently as good if not better than Akadama.

I will feed regularly as I will keep it indoors. window sill.
will let you know how it takes.

good luck

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djlen
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Being from the old school...lol.....I'm not as into this inorganic thing as many are.
I re-potted my Sagaretia into a mix of about 50/50 potting soil/Turface and it's seems to be flourishing in that.
I like the inorganic medium for it's ability to lighten up the soil but unless I'm talking about succulents, I'm just much more comfy with an organic mix.

maveriiik's tree will probably do OK now that he's cut out that tumor. I hope he will keep us posted as to the recovery.

peejay
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Yeh I know inorganic soil is conter intuitive but it does seem simple. If it is effective I am all for simplicity!
Cheers
PJ

maveriiick
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UPDATE: Unfortunately both of the sick trees continued to deteriorate and have died. I can only speculate that my initial care had resulted in their demise (I.e. too much watering). The one remaining tree (two actually as I bought another one) are actually doing extremely well now and I think I understand the watering method which appears to be inconsistent with what is found on websites however.

Most websites suggest constant slight moist soil without too much watering, eg. "Watering: This tree enjoys slightly moist soil, but will wilt and die if allowed to dry out completely. Wilting can be recovered from only by a very healthy tree. Check mositure level everyday with chopstick or bamboo skewer." - https://www.bonsai-bci.com/species/sageretia.html

But my experience has been to let the soil go very dry and water much less frequently. I check the soil and only water when it appears to be bone dry ~ which seems like once a week currently. I do have them under fluorescent lighting with a humidity tray all day.

Therefore, the following bonsai appear to flourish when water is deprived for a short period:

1. Bougainvillea
2. Fukien Tea
3. Sageretia Theezans

Again these are my personal observations.



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