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TomatoNut95
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I always get runt produce?!

Hello! I live in Texas and due to rock-hard clay, I have a small raised bed in my backyard full of miscellaneous store-bought soils. I have troubles getting veggies to grow in my backyard- nothing will not grow to full size; the produce stays small/puny, and the plants aren't quite productive. Tomatoes will stay green on the plants for FOREVER before finally maturing. Even veggies I grow pots do the same thing. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. It's like my backyard is jinxed or cursed. :eek: I do wonder about this being one factor: Pine trees block the morning sun from my garden. Does anyone else have this problem? :cry: I have attached photos of my garden with times of the sunlight. The sun starts hitting my garden mid-morning when the sun rises over the pines and by 6 or after, the evening sun is blocked by my house. I cannot move my garden elsewhere- my yard slopes and heavy rains causes little rivers and huge puddles in places.
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pepperhead212
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Your problem with the green tomatoes may be the heat - tomatoes need cool night temps to ripen. And the soil is probably the culprit for the size of the plants. That should be enough light - my sun comes up from behind trees and houses on the east, and gets shaded briefly around 3 pm, then a little more sun, before it's behind my house, about 6:30. More would probably be better, but it's doing fine, with that much.

I would get a soil test after this season, to see what is going on with that soil. Most tell you if you need to add to the soil, or if there is enough, or excess of various nutrients. I use the U of Connecticut, but there are a bunch out there, that do similar things.

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applestar
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I agree that sunlight should be sufficient. One way to check — What are the other veggies you have grown — have one or other performed better? For example, peppers need less (direct sun)light than tomatoes. But in hot southern areas, providing some shade for tomatoes actually improves their fruit production.

Cucumbers still produce well with less sun. Some herbs and leafy greens need even less as do strawberries.

You may be able to extend your garden bed or build beds in other areas if you match their light needs.

- It’s important to grow crops during the right time of the year — they can be temperature/season dependent or sensitive to grow at their best. In your case, pay close attention to what grows better in cooler season. You will probably find that mulching to shad/cool soil would help. (In my case, I have crops that languish because it doesn’t get hot enough)

- you haven’t mentioned fertilizer or amendments — what do you use? I usually amend with Dolomitic lime since my native soil tends to be acidic. This is the first year I haven’t added rock phosphate as matter of course. I also use pelleted alfalfa which I soak first, and used coffee grounds. I used to regularly use greensand, but that has become rare and price has skyrocketed (greensand used to be cheap — I think this means NJ source has been depleted — I’ve read that one source is Texas so you might find it more economical). I want to use wood ash but don’t have the opportunity. I’m not a fan of bonemeal or bloodmeal, but I do put stockpot bones (so soft they crumble) as well as all the eggshells and seafood remaines in my compost piles and bin, and bury intact bones under the compost piles when I have the opportunity.

- I always spread home made compost and vermicompost/vermicast at least once, I buy bagged compost or other soil amendments like Coast of Maine BumperCrop to add, mushroom compost, composted cow manure, dehydrated cow manure, composted or heat processed chicken coop bedding, etc. I also occasionally have enough bokashi fermented “compost”, though I tend to process that down further by adding to the vermicomposter.

- I tend to use Espoma organic fertilizers — tomato-tone, bio-tone, tree-tone, citrus-tone. I also like Dr. Earth products.

(Personally, I make it my mission to try to source from closest to local manufacturer, though in reality THE MANUFACTURER might be sourcing their ingredients from all over)

- I make AACT/AAFT — actively aerated compost/fertilizer tea — especially when I don’t have enough compost to go around.

Different crops have different fertilizer needs.

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TomatoNut95
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Hi! That's great about the sunlight. Yeah, it probably is my rotten dirt. There's Sta-Green garden soil, Miracle-Gro garden soil, peat moss, Scotts topsoil and for fertilize, there's Scotts Humus and Manure in there. This spring I added leaf mulch. For extra fertilize, I pretty much just use the box of powdered Miracle-Gro. That stuff's powerful and will save my sick-looking plants lives. But tomatoes I grow in a pot of Miracle Gro potting soil will do the same thing- not produce well. It's probably the weather. It will be nice and cool and raining one day and be hot and humid the next- probably causing pepper and tomato blossoms to drop.

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TomatoNut95
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Most of what I grow in my raised garden is tomatoes and peppers. I have done cucumbers and they'll do quite well. During winter I've tried broccoli, carrots, cabbage, spinach, turnip greens and cauliflower in the past with no, or extremely runted success. I'll do a little better with lettuce, but still the plants stay small. And again, probably the weather. Wintertime days can either be nice and warm, or freezing cold.

Yes, I've heard of the Texas Greensand, but I can't find it around here! The only store-bought sand around here is landscaping or sterilized play sand. Miracle-Gro is the #1 soil that is pushed around here. Besides, I have clay and adding sand to clay is a no-no.

I have seen bags of the Espoma veggie fertilizers and I might get some.

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applestar
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Quick reply - will come back to this later —

Greensand is not ordinary, no nutrient, silica sand. It is packed with trace minerals and usually extra potassium. Moreover, it has ability to break up clay.

I consider Greensand akin to kelp meal, azomite, and crushed granite in terms of supplying micronutrients/minerals. Azomite comes from Utah and crushed granite from New England states around here, so NJ greensand was my best choice until it disappeared.

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TomatoNut95
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Yes, I have read of the greensand and wanted some but it's not around here either. Believe me, I'd give ANYTHING to move off this cursed clay!! I get tired of spending a fortune on store bought dirt! I cannot have a compost pile, it would attract critters and I have no where to put it where it would be out of way of anything. However, I have used egg shells.
This fall I plan to do an overhaul on my raised garden. Remove most of the old existing soil and try to switch to organic- soils listed as OMRI. But organic is so expensive! Why, I don't know! You'd think organic would be cheaper than the synthetic stuff because there's no man-made chemicals in it.

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applestar
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Maybe this?

Subject: African Key Hole Gardening

The central compost bin can be made with bottomless trash bin with secure lid, etc. (A more elegant design would be clay chimney pot fitted with a lid of some sort. I think you have better access to such products where you are. They are expensive by the time they are hauled all the way north to NJ)


Click the link below to search the forum for more ideas —

search.php?keywords=African+keyhole+garden

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TomatoNut95
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But wouldn't that stink every time you open the lid? :lol:
Anyway, Miracle-Gro soils and fertilize is really pushed around here and it's not cheap. They've recently come out with a line of organic products and it costs more for a smaller bag of soil, and the organic powdered fertilize is more expensive than the synthetic. :shock: I think they just want to take advantage of people who want organic stuff. :x

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applestar
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Compost pile, even enclosed like that, doesn’t "stink" when you manage the ingredients well... and I really am not that regimented about it.

...here’s my freely interpreted larger-scale version —

Image


...previous years —
(Hm, something happened to that 2nd photo)
(BTW - look at the photos in those old threads while you can - Photobucket is going to blur them as of July if I don’t pay them an arm and a leg — not sure if I can afford to....)

Subject: Keyhole Kitchen Garden, Rice Paddy, and Veg Garden Extension
applestar wrote:I didn't realize I forgot to add this update last year:

Subject: 2014 Spiral Garden Garlic Onion Pea Corn Squash Cuke Beet
applestar wrote:So, the compost pile placement in the center of the Spiral Garden is inspired by the African Keyhole Garden (AKG) design. (I'll add a link as soon as I can find a decent reference source -- trying to find a good one related to the original project that's not looking for a donation....)

I was originally inspired to build my New Kitchen Garden (NKG) -which I mentioned earlier- loosely based on the AKG design, but chose not to place a compost pile in the middle at the time, and just put my strawberry jar in the middle back then. Image Also, when I built the NKG, I was equally inspired by the mandala garden design and the permaculture concept of increasing "edges" to maximize space -- so the idea was to be able to walk around and have access from the INSIDE EDGE of the bed as well as the OUTSIDE EDGE.

This year, I decided to -in fact- place a compost pile in the middle. I'm using my trusty old plastic bin.
Image
It's a bit ODD to walk out of the kitchen/back door and see this rather big composter directly ahead of you. :o This Smith & Hawken composter was one of the early designs built to the standard minimum compost pile size specs rather than the newer reduced size (and therefore inefficient thermal mass) design plastic bins. So it really feels like it's taking up a good chunk of space. :roll:

The reason I went ahead and did this is that I want to raise up this bed quite a bit -- initially I thought I would use wall pavers and build up to at least knee height like the (AKG). But there is a bit of space limitation/constraint. So I opted for another clearance sale item -- a 36"x36" coir wire basket liner. I cut it into four 9"x36" strips and pressed them up against the chicken wire fence. Then started filling up with compost/sand/soil mixture along the liner. The four strips covered half of the NKG perimeter. I'm pretty sure I have another 36"x36" sheet in the garage so I'll be able to line the other half.
Image

Image

The little bit of filling used up the wheelbarrow full of mix that I had -- just enough for the pre-germinated cucumber seeds, so it's going to be a gradual process.... :bouncey:

Having the compost bin here, I can make compost and use it directly in this bed. I was already able to fill it 1/3 full by spring cleaning about 1/3 of the patio (including the mess you saw in the first photo :oops: ). I'll layer that with wind blown pile of leaves from along the back fence, and by the time I finish cleaning the patio of all debris and weeds, adding some grass clippings and kitchen scraps along the way, the bin should be filled and ready to cook. :D

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TomatoNut95
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Wow, that's pretty! Ok, you said something about that Espoma veggie fertilize. I was thinking of adding some to my garden after refreshing it this fall. Do I measure it and add it to the entire existing soil, or just put a dab down in a hole before adding the plant?

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applestar
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If your garden isn’t doing well now, and you are still growing, then I would scratch in about 1/4 cup around each plant, being careful not to scratch up the roots. Organic fertilizer doesn’t burn roots.

Even better, shallowly scratch the fertilizer in, then water well and mulch with organic mulch — if you put paper down between plants, you don’t need a whole lot. I use brown shipping paper and grass clippings and weeds (no seedheads) when I mulch. In spring and fall, I can gather up extra fallen leaves along the back fence and patio. I also collect some of the pine needles dropped by next door neighbors white pine for acid loving plants. I also use shrub and tree trimmings.

Organic fertilizer is alive and works better in the garden if kept moist and out of direct sunlight. (store dry, out of sun and avoid extreme temperatures)

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TomatoNut95
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My garden perked up and looks much better after I fertilized with my powdered Miracle-Gro. I like to use it because it works quick.

Ok, so what would your thoughts be on why my tomatoes stay green forever on the plants? The weather? Poor weather I'm sure is what's causing the blossoms to drop.

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applestar
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I couldn’t find it, but somewhere in the archives of this forum is a link to how long it takes a typical tomato to mature from Blossom to ripe fruit.... it does take longer than you might think — something like 45-50 days I think.


...ah HA!

Subject: FLAVOR of Red & Yellow Bell Peppers vs Green Bell Peppers
applestar wrote:For a related reference, here is an older post about how long it takes for tomato to turn from green to ripe. Note that even after reaching full size green stage, it still takes more than 2 additional weeks —

Subject: Will it ever turn red?!
rainbowgardener wrote:Patience, patience!

Thinking about how long you have to wait, this tomato development time line may help you:

https://web.archive.org/web/201012180503 ... s_Timeline

This shows the development of a Big Beef tomato that has a listed DTM of 73 days. This timeline starts with Day 0 being when the first flower buds start to show (NOT when the seedling sprouts or when the plant goes in the ground). From the flower bud to ripe tomato is 57 days. From when the first tiny tomato formed to a ripe tomato was 42 days. From when the fruit was full sized to when it was ripe was still 18 days.

I don't know what you mean when you say it's been full sized "for weeks." But it is not looking very close to turning color. They go from dark green, to light green, to very pale green close to white and then they color up. You have gotten partly to the light green, but not to the pale green, close to white.

Different factors can affect how long it takes to ripen - the air temperatures, the soil temperature, how many tomatoes are on the plant, etc. If your plant is covered in tomatoes, removing some of them will help it ripen up the others. Has it been hot where you are?

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TomatoNut95
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Wow! Yeah, I admit I don't have much patience when it comes to waiting for my produce to mature because my plants aren't quite productive. I've got a beefsteak- plant HUGE and very healthy looking. Fruits are not as big as a normal beefsteak.
The way ALL my tomatoes do for me are as follows: plants can be big, and pretty. The first set of fruits will smaller than normal. The second set of fruits on up the plant are usually smaller. And then any later sets of fruits are even smaller. It's enough to make me puke, but I'll have a heartattack before going without growing tomatoes. They are my passion.

Another question: how do you go about adding a quick dose of calcium to plants? I just checked on my 'mystery tomato' and one fruit on its second set had blossom end rot.

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Though it's not organic, I give my tomatoes in my SIPs a "snack" of Ca(NO3)2 every 7-10 days, by adding a tsp to the reservoir. You could also spray them with a solution of it - 2 tsp/gal. This would also give them a boost of N, which may help them grow better.

You may want to look into growing tomatoes in SIPs, given your soil conditions. I have some of mine that have gotten 3 1/2-4' tall already, having been planted on 4-24, and are loaded with tomatoes and blossoms. I think I will get my earliest ripe tomato ever - usually 7-4 is a good first ripe date.

Here's a link with a bunch of info on SIPs, and a bunch of photos.
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=60946

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TomatoNut95
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Sorry, but I haven't the slightest idea what ca(NO3)2 is. :)
Someone had told me how truly synthetic Miracle Gro was and made me seriously think about switching to organic. However I'm seeing how horribly expensive it'll be. I don't understand why organic stuff costs more??!! And the nutritional value is lower. That stinks, right?

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applestar
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Calcium Nitrate.


It’s important to know what the 3 numbers on the fertilizer package represents. N-P-K ...nitrogen-phosphate-potassium— these are the three major/macro nutrients plants always need. Nitrogen is what boosts Foliar growth. It also readily converts to gas and is lost.

Synthetic miraclegro (regular) has ridiculous amounts of N — so sure it boosts green lush growth, but to fruit=flower, plants need higher amounts/ratio of P and K as well as micro/mineral calcium, magnesium, boron, copper, manganese.....

Synthetic plant food is usually in immediately bio-available form, but tends to turn to gas or is leached away by water. Organic fertilizers will not only feed the plants but also the diverse micro-organism food web in the soil that helps to build self-sustaining chain of wholesome nutrient-cycle. So it’s not necessary to think you have to have pound-for-pound equivalent numbers in organic fertilizer.

I think of it like the difference between taking synthetic vitamins vs eating real food.

...that said, I believe you need to switch to something that promotes blooming and fruiting— I suppose Miracle-gro equivalent is their Tomato fertilizer — but on their website, the reviews mention it doesn’t contain calcium. (That seems really dumb. It shouldn’t be called “Tomato” fertilizer.).

FYI — Here’s Tomato-tone
Image
Last edited by applestar on Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added tomato-tone label for clarification

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TomatoNut95
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Cacium is what prevents the blossom end rot, right?
I bought a box of Miracle-Gro performance organics fertilize. It reads 11-3-8. I have to use four scoops of it instead of two like the synthetic, which means using it up more and spending extra money. I'll never understand why organic costs more. I'm going to get some of that Espoma tomato fertilize- I know where I can buy some. It's not cheap either.

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Gary350
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Green sand is used in foundries to make castings. After sand has been used many times they throw it out. There is usually a pile of green sand behind the building that is free. There might be small pieces of, zinc, brass or cast iron in the sand. Look for casting companies in your area. I collected grass clippings in bags that people set out along the street to be picked up by the city to put in my AZ garden it worked good.

What is your weather like? When I lived in Phoenix AZ area my best garden was planted Nov 1st. I had ripe tomatoes first week of Jan. Last 2 weeks of Feb was usually below freezing. I planted another garden March 1st. There was no rain sometimes for 9 months garden needed irrigation 15 minutes every night at 9pm. AZ soil is 8ph water is 8ph too it was not a problem of any of the garden plants. Humidity was too low for corn to pollinate. AZ soil has no food value for plants fertilizer is required a friend lives in TX he told me the same thing about TX soil. My plants had BER really bad no lime was available for sale in any store so I bought $3 bags of cement. Mix 1/2 gallon of cement in 5 gallon bucket of water wait 2 days before pouring it on plants.

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TomatoNut95
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My weather is awful. Winters and springs are rainy, and summers are hot and dry. Temperatures can vary. It can be cool and rainy one day, and hot and humid the next. Winter temps can be nice and warm one day and freezing cold the next. I think my weather contributes to my pepper and tomato blossoms not setting. I was checking my beefsteak plant yesterday- plant is HUGE!! Like 4- 4 1/2 feet tall! But I saw this whole empty cluster of empty blossom stems near the top of the plant. All the blossoms had died. My plants NEVER produce good for me.

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applestar
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Plants are very honest and straight forward. It’s just a question of figuring out what they need.... like a mystery or puzzle. :wink:

The new fert you mentioned is still highest in N, so you need to boost the phosphate and potassium. Can you get some hardwood ash?

I think a bloom booster type instead would have better effect.

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TomatoNut95
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Hardwood ash? Don't think so. Ok, you say I needed a fertilize to help ensure blossom production. But my tomatoes have no trouble producing blossoms, the blossoms won't pollinate due to weather being incorrect. They turn yellow then fall off. However, I have purchased a box of Miracle Gro Bloom Booster for flowers in the past- the potassium and potash were higher. I might look for that again. I do know where I can get the Espoma Tomato Tone, I will certainly buy some. And for calcium, I'll toss egg shells in there.

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applestar
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Eggshells - I put raw eggshells in my compost pile/bin so they go through several months decomp process. For using direct in potting mix, garden, or for the earthworms in the vermicompost bins, I save hard oiled eggshells which are obviously cooked/ oiled. I put them in quart size deli containers and smash them into tiny bits (garden/ container = deters slugs) - powder (powder for the. Vermicompost). Smaller they are faster calcium leaches out.

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I also think the soil is the culprit. While bagged soil isn't always the best choice, soil is not fertilizer. You have a lot of large plants in a small area that are heavy feeders.

I amend the soil that is heavy clay at least 10-12 inches deep with an equal volume of compost. The compost should have at least 5 different sources and not rely too heavily on forest products. Homemade compost would be best, but I like black gold, black Kow (it has composted cow manure), leaf mold, and peat moss. Ideally the compost should be worked in in the fall every year so it can do its thing in time for the next year's planting.

Pine trees can be a problem if the needles are falling in the garden. Pine has some tannins that are antagonistic toward some things like the onions and garlic, but don't seem to bother other things.

I have heavy red clay too so I know how hard it is to work. I do believe in adding carbon and organics to improve soil tilth, texture and to feed the soil organisms. I am not that much into organics. If you want to do organic fertilizer, you will have to supplement with compost tea, fish emulsion and other fast nitrogen especially during the early growth of plants and heavy feeders like tomatoes and corn. Whether you do organic or synthetic fertilizer (I do synthetic because I do not like to use animal based fertilizers.) Organic fertilizers need to be added about 6 months in advance and the real benefit won't show up until the second or third year since the organic fertilizer numbers are low and can take up to two years to release their nutrients. Hence, why organic needs to be supplemented. I get better results with less work using synthetics and I don't have to haul around a large volume of fillers or brew compost tea or use fish emulsion every week.

Whether you go with organic or synthetic fertilizer, I still think it is a good idea to get a baseline soil test. That way you will get recommendations for how much fertilizer you need to add. A scale would be a good idea to have too. I get my soil test from the local extension service for $12 for a basic major nutrients and pH. Nitrogen is not tested since it is a volatile element. I retest every 3 years or so. My recommendation only calls for nitrogen and nothing else. It also calls for a very small amount of nitrogen. I have a 20 lb bag of sulfate of ammonia for about 4 years now and I have only used about a 1/4 of it on my plots.

I have done trench composting using mostly grass, leaves, tree trimmings, and kitchen veg and fruit waste. I do add sulfate of ammonia to the compost to speed the decomposition. The pile is best when it is at least 3 feet wide and a couple of feet high. It still takes about 5-6 months to mature for planting. The first planting is good, but the next planting gets depleted from nitrogen quickly so a new pile needs to be started every other year. This is part of an experiment I am doing with a friend. She partially composts in a traditional pile until it is partially broken down. Then it is transferred to the garden and trench composted with about 4 inches of soil on top and sulfate of ammonia to boost the nitrogen for another 5-6 months to be ready for planting. The pile is covered with burlap but the "weeds" still break through. I have had to pull out many volunteer papaya and I now have a butternut squash growing in the pile. The compost also sinks considerably and is another reason why the garden needs to have more compost added every year. I can only do the trench composting on the large 25x 50 ft garden. It is the only one where I have space to keep parts of the garden trenched for months at a time. This is the only garden where I do plant green manures.

It is not practical to do trench compost in my 8x16 ft home garden. I add 4-6 inches of finished compost (I buy bagged compost) before I plant each cycle. Sulfate of ammonia is added after the true leaves come out. The amount added depends on the crop. I usually follow corn (heavy nitrogen feeder) with a scavenger asian green crop. I do chop and drop healthy garden residues and do a little bit of trench composting. I have a 365 day gardening year, so the garden is rarely fallow.

The alkaline plots are better for root crops since they are relatively nitrogen poor. The plants are healthy but generally shorter than they should be. The acidic garden is better for corn and fruiting crops like tomatoes and cucumbers. Root crops don't develop much root in this plot because it is nitrogen rich.Plants are taller and larger in this garden compared to the alkaline plots. Cabbages and leafy greens are the least fussy and do well in either garden. Legumes will probably be better for your garden until the soil is fixed.

Synthetic fertilizers should be added about a month before you plant. Nitrogen can be added later.
Organic fertilizers should be added about 6 months prior to planting and you will still need to supplement especially in the early stages and while the plants are fruiting since organic fertilizers are not always available in sufficient quantity at the right time.

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applestar
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I don’t really pay attention to the scientific hows and whys, so I really love it when imafan explains things in detail. I do a lot of my fertilizing and amending by “feel” — whether that can be equated to instinct or experience is completely up in the air. LOL

I actually don’t do fish emulsion (too stinky) or even compost tea that often — I’m sitting here thinking oh I’m supposed to be doing that? I do like the smell of liquid kelp and kelpmeal tea. I guess I’ll go scrounge up some finished compost and start brewing AACT (actively aerated compost tea) — AACT has lovely smell that I think of like deep forest — probably some of it is the fungal, mushroom smell. I also do spray with milk solution a lot — alternating with AACT for fungal disease preventative, but it does also supply some nitrogen and calcium, phosphorus, potassium, etc. :wink:

Based on what she just said, I imagine each time I’m “feeding” or amending the soil, I’m basically supplementing for the next year or later in the season.... but I’ve been trying to stick to organic stuff for around -wow- is it almost/around 20 years?

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rainbowgardener
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I also think your "raised bed" looks to be barely raised. Part of the idea of a raised bed is that if you have terrible soil, you don't have to try to fix all the soil (very difficult), you can just give your plants some good soil to grow in. But your plants are really growing in your terrible soil. Raised beds need to be at least 8" tall, more is better. All of mine are 12" or more. And then that has to be all filled with good enriched topsoil, amended with aged manure/ compost, minerals, etc.

And raised beds are usually no more than 4' wide so that you can reach everything in it from the outside and don't have to step on/ compact your new soil.

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TomatoNut95
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Applestar- I agree 100%: I don't do scientific stuff. I don't see gardening as a science. But I see that there can be fun experiments within gardening. I use fish emulsion at times. That Alaska brand smells bad. I use ferti-lome.
Rainbowgardener- yes, I'd like my garden to be deeper, but the problem is not having the money to fill it. I cannot have a compost pile, I have nowhere to put one, and I have too many mice and other pests that would try to get to it. You name it, it's living in the woods around my house.

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TomatoNut95
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Rainbowgardener- would it help if I purchased some stepping stones to place in my garden to walk on?

imafan26
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I don't use fish emulsion often. The neighbors complain about the smell if I use it too often. It is a good source of fast organic nitrogen, and I do use it especially when I suspect a nutritional issue but I cannot quite figure it out exactly what it is. Fish emulsion is a complete organic fertilizer. I used blood meal once, I will never do that again after I ended up inhaling it. Kelp is actually not readily available here. I found it years ago but not recently. I have tried EM1 in an attempt to improve the nitrogen fixing of the cowpeas, but EM1 costs about $20 for 16 oz. I also tried crumbles. I did not see a lot of difference with the crumbles. I still got short corn with only organic inputs. I admit, I did not do the weekly supplementation, though. I have brewed AACT and non aerated compost tea. It does improve plant health, but my dog also liked to drink it out of the bucket. It was a bit of work for a 5 gallon bucket that did not go that far in the garden. I prefer to make my tea using vermicompost.

I have had some better luck with bokashi, but it takes time to make it. Bokashi does not get bigger plants or yields but does support the soil microbiota and that in turn seem to keep the plants healthier.
I have seen some improvements in soil health and growth with gro power. It is just hard to find gro power now. Gro power is
mostly humus based.
https://www.gropower.com/home_garden/home_faq.htm

I admit I am an impatient gardener. I also don't like to haul a lot of poundage around, it is too hard on my already aching back.
I have tried different organics and have made some mistakes with it. The first compost piles I made were not balanced and were mostly greens with very little carbon. They were stinky, slimy and since I composted tropical weeds, they grew a lot of weeds unless I bag composted them first. Compost piles attract centipedes, ants, spiders, and pill bugs. Probably other stuff as well and it would be too close to my house no matter where it is in my yard. Trench composting is easy, fast and does not take up a lot of space so it was something I was willing to do when I had enough inputs for it. It also was a way to get rid of some trimmed leaves. There are not many deciduous trees in the tropics. The trees that do drop leaves annually are aliens from temperate climates. I don't compost grass clippings since I leave the clippings on the grass and my grass has some nasty weeds. I can only compost material that is not diseased since I would not be hot composting.

I did try to go totally organic, but after one season of short corn, it really was not worth it for me. I used compost and organic fertilizers, but I did not supplement with compost tea or fish emulsion. Although, I have been growing in the same space for many years, and the garden has been planted intensively, it was a disappointing result. It is not like I started with a nutrient poor soil to start with. I probably should have planted a legume instead in the first season instead of a nitrogen hog like corn, but I can't eat that many beans ( I really don't like beans much anyway). I did not supplement and that aggravated the nitrogen problem since nitrogen is the hardest thing to supply organically. Maybe if I could have stuck it out a couple of years and planted less nitrogen demanding plants and supplemented the nitrogen weekly, I could have successfully transitioned to organic. It is not practical to do no till. Red clay gets solid fast without the fluffing with the compost and I have a lot of weeds to deal with as well. Tilling kills more soil microbes than probably anything else.

In the end, I chose to do a combination that works for me. I add about 4 inches of compost and till in residues after each crop. I do not need to rototill, a shovel works fine now that the garden has been amended heavily over the years. I still am foolish enough to work soil too wet and get the clod problem. I try to use different composts and use a lot less Big R since it is primarily composted sawdust, which is great carbon but dries really fast and a single source so not really a good deal for the garden. So much carbon eats up nitrogen, which is not a bad idea in my garden but would be problematic in a nitrogen poor environment.

I spent a year trying to get the nutsedge out of the garden, but now I get what I can and plant over it. Keeping the garden planted is actually the best way to keep the weeds from taking over. The nut sedge still grows but it needs light to do well.
I use newspaper mulch in the garden to keep the weeds down and cut up the soil bags and use it as a mulch in the large pots. It keeps down weeds and helps retain moisture. Plastic also reduces splashing on the tomatoes.

I usually use water for pest control, alcohol is second, and sulfur for fungal diseases. Thrips, I live with it. Snails and slugs are hand picked. I buy a ton of slug bait, and I still am losing that battle. I am looking for a few toads to that job, so far no takers. Unfortunately slug bait attracts rats and birds who eat it heartily and come back for more but it is better at killing toads and frogs than at killing slugs and snails. I practice cultural controls. I cut back the host plants, I am bad about picking up all the plumeria leaves, but the rust only affects plumeria. Thrips cannot be controlled since I really am not willing to give up the plumeria, Jasmine sambac, gardenia, roses, citrus, or orchids and even these are rarely treated with anything more than water. I do have a good garden patrol and for the most part the plants are productive and while there will always be some damage, it is not enough to do anything about it.

I do test my soil every three years. I only need nitrogen in all plots (for the last 8 years) and potassium in the acidic plot to improve root crops.

I use synthetic fertilizers with micros and low numbers (below 15) and slow nitrogen. I usually use citrus food for everything in a pot, but I do use 10-20-20 for some pots and specific plants on occasion. Sulfate of ammonia is my main fertilizer and all that is required. It is best done in divided doses and I need very little of it. I use a scavenger (Asian greens) after corn to scavenge leftover nutrients. Occasionally, I might use some manure and I can only use chicken manure for the orchids and for the acidic plot. Fish emulsion for suspected nutritional deficiencies. Synthetic fertilizers are more standardized and I don't have to haul all that poundage around. I don't use urea because, it only comes in 50 lb bags, and is too concentrated and very easy to over apply. I need to intensively plant my garden to make the best use of the space. I don't row plant, except for corn and I interplant heavily. It would be hard to deliver sufficient nitrogen organically and I don't want to have to do it every week.

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TomatoNut95
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I'd like to be able to grow corn and have a compost pile, but too many critters. I love living in the country- but there's two factors I hate about my spot: clay, and critters. Here's a list of the vermin around here:
Armadillos
Coyotes
Deer
Hogs
Mice
Possoms
Rabbits
Raccoons
Snakes
Skunks
Squirrels

My backyard is fenced in, but stuff still travels across the front yard, and behind the fence line. I have an armadillo that digs underneath the fence and tears up the yard. I have a trap, but he won't go in it. I think he KNOWS I am after him! If I ever catch him, I'm gonna dance on his grave!!!

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rainbowgardener
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Re filling a deeper bed. You said you are in the country. Is there a stable near you? They are usually willing to give you free all the manure you can haul away. It may not be aged so you might have to let it sit for awhile.

If it were me I'd struggle along with the old bed, but also build one 8*4', 12" deep raised bed now. Start working on filling it. Add manure, if you can get it. Look into municipal compost. Many localities are now taking in organic stuff and composting it. Then they give it to residents free or low cost. Add that. Throw in shredded paper, pulled weeds (as long as they haven't set seed), grass clippings, fall leaves. It will be like a compost pile, but with no food scraps. Without the food scraps, it shouldn't attract critters. Keep adding to it and keep it watered. If you run across some earthworms, throw them in. Keep doing this all through the season. By fall stop adding. Next spring you will have a bed full of good soil. Then you can build one more and start filling it.

In the meantime , re the regular compost bin. Where I used to live, we had most of those critters. No armadillos or hogs, but tons of raccoons, possums, deer, and big city rats, and mice, shrews, voles, etc. I couldn't have an open compost bin. I would come out in the AM and find compostables strewn all over the yard. But two kinds worked for me: sturdy wire grid bins with four sides and a top and the earth machine style heavy duty plastic cylinders with tight lids. Again, to encourage composting, many localities sell those at a big discount.

If you aren't going to make sure you have really good soil, then gardening will always be frustrating.

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TomatoNut95
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A stable? No. I do know some people with cows, but I know fresh stuff would probably burn my stuff- and smell bad. I'd have to ask them to compost it for me before I got it from them. :) Yeah, paper sounds good for compost since it doesn't smell or anything. I like to draw, so I guess I can throw my discarded drawings in my garden. :)

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TomatoNut95
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Ok, if I were to place stepping stones in my raised bed, would that help instead of stepping directly on the soil?

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applestar
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Basically you just want designated walking areas that you always trample and compact, while the rest of the bed remains fluffy and uncomplicated. After that you reach from the path and not step in among the plants unless it’s absolutely unavoidable.

Stepping stones (flagstones) will work, or bricks/blocks with a board bridge. You could also simply scoop up good soil from designated path and toss over to either side — this is what I do — paths are scooped of all good topsoil down to the clay subsoil, then I pile yard clippings and weeds and cutoff/pruned spent (undiseased) crop foliage and stems on the path and trample them into the clay. These eventually break down into topsoil and then they are scooped onto the beds again.

If the designated path weeds got ahead of me, then I lay down flattened cardboard, pizza boxes, etc. to smother the weeds

At this point, you will want to peek under the designated path area and see if the vegs have already grown roots into the area. This will dictate what you’ll want to do to some extent. Large flat surface (flagstones, boards) will not cut off/damage those roots like cobble stones or bricks would.

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TomatoNut95
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I might have my garden extended again this fall when I get it fixed up, so I'll see about having 'pathways' put in it! :-()

imafan26
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My garden is an irregular shape since it was formerly a rock garden by the previous owner. It is more oval 8ft x 16 ft. I partition it into three sections and I do use stepping stones. Actually, I switched to resin pavers a long time ago since it is easier to move around than concrete pavers. If you can reconfigure the bed, it is better to make it no wider than you can reach across ( 4ft) from the sides. Paths can be as narrow as 18 inches. U and T shaped beds work out well as well.

If you have the space, consider a keyhole garden. It is designed to use readily available cheap resources. Keyhole gardens have been made with stone, bricks, wood, and even metal. The central basket in Africa is made of sticks but chicken wire works too and lasts longer. The 6 ft diameter circle was designed because when watering from the central basket, it is the distance that the water from the central basket will be able to reach. The walls are 18 inches high and the diameter of the bed is 6ft (circle). It has a built in compost pile in the center that uses gray water and kitchen scraps so it makes composting easy and a no brainer. The bed itself is a type of sheet composting bed. The bottom has drainage material like large branches, sticks, and even tin cans have been used. The remainder of the the bed is layered with browns, greens, and with about 4 inches of good topsoil on top, it can be planted immediately. It is water efficient and with an optional hoop roof. It can be covered to keep out some of the pests and provide shade when it gets too hot. A lot of plants can be grown in a small space, especially if you choose the right plants. This type of bed is good for cut and come again plants, leafy greens, and some root crops. Large plants like tomatoes and vining plants can be grown in it but is not recommended since they take up a lot of the space.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykCXfjzfaco
https://www.texascooppower.com/texas-st ... -gardening
https://preparednessmama.com/keyhole-garden/

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applestar
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GREAT MINDS @imafan! — I mentioned keyhole garden design as a possible solution, too. I really do think it’s something to consider — and this is a project design that serious thinkers have applied their best efforts to fine-tune, so it’s pretty reliable.

That said, you don’t HAVE to stick to the circular design — you could leave the shape of the bed rectangular or square and just make the keyhole access and walkway — U-shaped bed, like imafan mentioned. The point of the circular design is that distance from the outside to the inside of the bed is same from any point, and watering and fertilizing from the central compost pit/basket is equally distributed, but you could take that into account and plant less water/nutrient needy plants inherit corners, etc.

BTW one way to limit marauders’ access to the bed and compost is to wrap the entire bed with deer netting — you do have to lift or unhook, etc. the netting, or finesse the draping mechanism to access the bed yourself. My Stardome project is one way I’m going to try to build a structure for that kind of purpose.

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TomatoNut95
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I'll see what I can do to my garden this fall! :wink: Now; back to the subject of my tomatoes blossoms falling off: applestar said I needed I needed a fertilize to encourage more blooms. But my tomatoes have no trouble producing blooms, the blossoms themselves won't pollinate, and they just dry up and fall off. Could it be the weather causing that? High humidity and all that?

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applestar
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You could try buzzing the floral stems with electric toothbrush during cooler hours of the morning — this simulates bees buzzing to make the blossoms release pollen. Tomatoes/peppers/eggplants — drop pollen inside the conical structure which surrounds the pollen receptor and each blossom self-pollinates.

I have read that excessive nitrogen can cause blossom drop, too... But have no personal experience. (Like most fruit bearing plants, I think tomatoes might also drop blossoms if they are incapable of supporting fruit development.)

Maybe someone else can confirm or reassure that isn’t the case.

...just to be clear, what I was suggesting was to increase the phosphorus and potassium ratio, since you can’t take AWAY the nitrogen that’s already been applied.



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