"Rocky Soil" barely scrapes the surface...

[Shanghaisky]

This is our first year in this zone (5b - about 30 minutes SE of Albany, NY), first year at this property, and first time trying to have an in-ground garden. Previously we grew in raised beds in zone 7A.

There is an old communal plot out back next to a creek that has been under tarps for at least 9 months - the landlady is trying to smother out a very bad thistle problem. I peeled the tarps up today a bit to see what the soil is like and how bad the weed problem is..... well, I'm not a little discouraged. It looks like someone threw top soil on a gravel parking lot and tilled it all together! Then threw a 50lb bag of thistle seed all around to coat the entire thing. The landlady has a raised bed for tomatoes and whatever else, which is also curiously abundant with mixed in gravel.

My question is: how on earth should I go about figuring out this garden in order to plant anything? I don't know what could grow well in rocky soil, but I don't want to limit myself based on these conditions. Is there any way to get rid of these abundance of weeds (all of which are white and probably quite tired after being under tarps for half a year or more) and literally tons of gravel? I tried digging down to see if it was just the top layer, but there are so many rocks I can't even dig past a couple of inches without hitting a big rock. Is this perhaps an intentional mixing of rocks for drainage? The soil is quite wet (it hasn't rained in a few days), and it is next to a creek... maybe this is for drainage? Though I just can't see how much could grow well with SO much gravel.

Sorry this is long-winded... I was really looking forward to getting *something* in the ground this year and avoiding the (high for us) costs of having to container garden or build/fill a raised bed, but alas.... Any thoughts/help/experience would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

[bri80]

Picking the right location is key to a successful veggie garden. This means accounting for light conditions and soil conditions. If the soil is too rocky for you to work, and you're not willing to do a mass haul-it-out and import some good soil, it is not a good location and you should look for another location. Or loosen it as deep as you can and build tall (minimum of 2') raised beds. Might work, but I'd look for a better location.

As for killing the weeds, everything will die if you cut it back enough times. A sharp weeder that can quickly cut the growth at the surface (preferably under the surface but the rocks may prevent this), repeated every time the weeds resprout, will eventually kill even the most persistent weed.

[applestar]

I think if you are used to growing in raised beds, you will find that things will grow at least somewhat more to your standards if you grow in raised beds in the new northern location. Even here, there are things that won't grow as well when planted directly in the ground -- peppers, eggplants for example. You may find that now, even tomatoes would do better with the warmer rootzone that raised bed would provide.... and you were used to that further south.

I've had Canadian thistle takeover an area when they were in bulk mulch. All in all, the best remedy was to keep pulling them as new shoots grew. When young, they pull out fairly easily after heavy rain -- you can even grasp them bare handed just below ground where there are no spines if you do this while the new leaves are still folded up. Steady pull directly upwards usually yielded couple more inches of underground rhizome. If you keep at it and pull up every last one, they don't see the sun and never get to rebuild their energy. Eventually their reserves will be depleted.

Right now is your chance -- I would peel up the tarp and remove as much of the weakened weeds, then cover the rest back up again. I personally like to use my "drowned weed" method to turn the pesky weeds into something more useful. Put them in a bucket or tub, cover with water -- I step on them wearing tall gardening boots -- tie on a folded burlap or something similar to keep out mosquitoes and let them ferment. Eventually this turns into foamy mush that smells like fresh horse manure -- nutrient-dense fertilizer. Thistle is a dynamic accumulator and brings up lots of minerals from deep in the ground.

Once most of the existing weeds are eliminated, be prepared to deal with them some more for the next couple of years, but I think you could go ahead and sheet mulch and build a lasagna garden raised bed over the area. ...in other words, don't worry about the rocks and the weeds, just cover them up and plant.

...filling a raised bed... I never fill the bottom layers with store bought stuff -- use weed-free quality stuff for the top maybe 4-6 inches. Everything under the cardboard (or 4-6 sheet layer of kraft paper) is gathered free or nearly free stuff that can be layered and break down into compost.

[imafan26]

I think Apple has the right idea. If there are so many rocks there it is best to get above it. After getting as many of the weeds out as possible, laying thick cardboard on it before buiding up the raised bed will help block out the light and keep the weeds down a little longer.

[john gault]

Seems like Apple has the only solution. I can imagine how difficult your situation is; I hiked the Appalachian trail and I know ROCKS . That area is super rocky, I couldn't imagine attempting to dig into it. The dividing line between NY and NJ is painted on rock -- there's no where to post a sign

[jal_ut]

PLOW
Yes turning the soil will bring the weed roots up and they will die. Plow it then two weeks later do a shallot tilling then plant your veggies.

[ID jit]

Helped a freind in Schenectady.... if you have what was there (a little gravels and dirt between the rocks and stones) and you don't want to do containers or traditional raised beds, put down a few layers of clean, non-shiny cardboard, newspaper or something and form mounds of what you can get for actual soil. A wattle fence and hugelkultur might be a good option for you too.

[Shanghaisky]

Helped a freind in Schenectady.... if you have what was there (a little gravels and dirt between the rocks and stones) and you don't want to do containers or traditional raised beds, put down a few layers of clean, non-shiny cardboard, newspaper or something and form mounds of what you can get for actual soil. A wattle fence and hugelkultur might be a good option for you too.

We are about 30 minutes outside Schenectady, near Cobleskill. We went out and got some compost and worm castings last night, and I'm going to collect up some of the various yummy mulches (we just felled two big trees and chipped them, along with 2 or 3 stumps chipped!) and grass clippings etc around the property, and do a Back to Eden/Lasagna style. Makes me want to have chickens to speed the process up, but we DO live across the street from a little stable, so I'm imagining there's a nice steamy black pile of muck with my name on it... we'll see. I think the native soil, once I clear as many of the big rocks/stones out as I can, will be okay enough to support the layers with some basic veg and a couple root crops. I may build up a bed in another part of the garden with some hugelkultur/layering for use next season, so it will have a good year to break down.

[imafan26]

If you plant on planting veggies, compost the manure first to get rid of any weed seeds and pathogens in it.

[ID jit]

We are about 30 minutes outside Schenectady, near Cobleskill. We went out and got some compost and worm castings last night, and I'm going to collect up some of the various yummy mulches (we just felled two big trees and chipped them, along with 2 or 3 stumps chipped!) and grass clippings etc around the property, and do a Back to Eden/Lasagna style. Makes me want to have chickens to speed the process up, but we DO live across the street from a little stable, so I'm imagining there's a nice steamy black pile of muck with my name on it... we'll see. I think the native soil, once I clear as many of the big rocks/stones out as I can, will be okay enough to support the layers with some basic veg and a couple root crops. I may build up a bed in another part of the garden with some hugelkultur/layering for use next season, so it will have a good year to break down.

So you are up on the high ground above the Hudson's current and old flood plains, right? If so, good luck digging. I think you have some solid plans to deal with it.