Hi, I'm a somewhat new gardener and I have some questions about starting seeds indoors. I've got grow lamps set up for the seedlings, so light won't be an issue, and I'm fairly confident about my transplant dates. I was planning on starting the seeds earlier than usual because I want larger, more mature plants when it comes time to transplant. I'll start by listing what my plans are;
Cucumber, zucchini, melon and squash: Start in early March, and transplant in mid June (14 weeks)
Ground cherry and Basil: Start in early March, and transplant in mid May (10 weeks)
Hot peppers: Start in late February, and transplant in early July (18 weeks)
Eggplant: Start in early February, and transplant in mid June (18 weeks)
Brussels sprouts: Start in early February, and transplant in mid May (14 weeks)
Tomatoes: Start in early March, and transplant in early July (16 weeks)
I was going to start all the seeds in 12"x10"x5" (l x w x d) basins. The layout of the basis is as such;
Basin #1: 6x tomato plants and 5x pepper plants (11 sqin per plant)
Basin #2: 4x ground cherry, 4x squash, 1x zucchini (13 sqin per plant)
Basin #3: 6x melon, 3x eggplant, 3x cucumber (10 sqin per plant)
Basin #4: 6x basil, 5x brussels sprouts (11 sqin per plant)
My questions are as such;
1) Will each plant have enough space at the time of transplant to be healthy?
2) Is 5" soil depth enough?
3) How big will each plant grow to be? (I have a limited amount of vertical space)
4) Are there any other problems with this that I may not be aware of?
Where do you live? As stated by maseur, I wouldn't bother starting the zucchini, squash, and cucumber indoors. Squashes, zucchini especially, are unstoppable plants and fast growers. Cucumber in particular is sensitive to transplants, so if you don't need to start it indoors, I'd sow it directly after all danger of frost has passed. Depending on where you live, you should probably direct sow the melons too. Although from when you plan to transplant these, it sounds like you may live up north and may need the extra time for melons, which are slow growers. I myself recently moved to Michigan from Texas and have not tried my hand at melons up here.
As for your questions:
1) For initial germination and a little growth I'd say that spacing is fine. But if you're wanting to get an early start so you have bigger plants when you transplant, you're going to need to pot up some of these plants. The tomatoes, peppers, and eggplant will all do well upgraded to their own pots as they get bigger. I typically start my seeds in those little pucks you can get at garden stores. It prevents the roots from possibly getting tangled with an adjacent plant if you let it go too long. And I can just plant the whole soil puck into the next pot, usually a 4 inch nursery pot. Ground cherry is in the same family as the tomatoes, peppers, and eggplant, so I would assume it's the same story, although I have no personal experience with them. I would also plan on potting up the Brussels sprouts. The basil could be fine in the basins, you just need to keep an eye on growth and they'll let you know. For any of these plants, if the plants leaves start to touch each other, they are too crowded. I wouldn't plan on leaving any of those plants in the basins for the entire time they are indoors.
2)5 inch soil depth is more than enough for the first stage of growth, and will probably suffice until you plant out, depending on exactly how big you want the plants before planting out.
3)How big these plants grow will depend on many factors and I can't really give you a specific answer. If your grow light is too far above the seedlings, they will grow tall and spindly (you don't want this). Keep the light as close to the seedlings as you can without burning them. If you use fluorescents, you can get them pretty close. If you can touch your fingers to the bulbs for several seconds without being tempted to pull away, then I would keep the light only one inch away from the tallest growth. This will allow you to grow sturdier, bushier plants, which will be healthier. How much vertical space do you have? At a certain point, the size of your pot will be the main thing limiting the plants growth, so I don't anticipate vertical space being an issue. In small pots (the size you'd buy most transplants at the garden store), I doubt the plants would ever exceed 12" in height, if that. I'd want to plant out any plant that is about 6-8."
4)Without more specifics, particularly your grow location, the only thing I see missing from your plan is the need to pot up, as I've addressed above. Also, planting out your peppers and tomatoes in July seems a bit late to me, but I guess it depends on where you live. I plant my tomatoes and peppers out on the week of average last frost, for me in Detroit, that is May 10. If all my seedlings have done well indoors, I'll even have some that I can risk planting earlier if the weather seems to be cooperating, like the last week of April. If we see a freeze, no big, there's more plants inside to replace any causalities.
Hope some of this helps. I'm by no means an expert gardener, but I've been starting seed indoors for a few years now with varying levels of success. I strongly suggest heat mats under seed trays and T5 lighting placed extremely close to the plants.
As for your questions:
1) For initial germination and a little growth I'd say that spacing is fine. But if you're wanting to get an early start so you have bigger plants when you transplant, you're going to need to pot up some of these plants. The tomatoes, peppers, and eggplant will all do well upgraded to their own pots as they get bigger. I typically start my seeds in those little pucks you can get at garden stores. It prevents the roots from possibly getting tangled with an adjacent plant if you let it go too long. And I can just plant the whole soil puck into the next pot, usually a 4 inch nursery pot. Ground cherry is in the same family as the tomatoes, peppers, and eggplant, so I would assume it's the same story, although I have no personal experience with them. I would also plan on potting up the Brussels sprouts. The basil could be fine in the basins, you just need to keep an eye on growth and they'll let you know. For any of these plants, if the plants leaves start to touch each other, they are too crowded. I wouldn't plan on leaving any of those plants in the basins for the entire time they are indoors.
2)5 inch soil depth is more than enough for the first stage of growth, and will probably suffice until you plant out, depending on exactly how big you want the plants before planting out.
3)How big these plants grow will depend on many factors and I can't really give you a specific answer. If your grow light is too far above the seedlings, they will grow tall and spindly (you don't want this). Keep the light as close to the seedlings as you can without burning them. If you use fluorescents, you can get them pretty close. If you can touch your fingers to the bulbs for several seconds without being tempted to pull away, then I would keep the light only one inch away from the tallest growth. This will allow you to grow sturdier, bushier plants, which will be healthier. How much vertical space do you have? At a certain point, the size of your pot will be the main thing limiting the plants growth, so I don't anticipate vertical space being an issue. In small pots (the size you'd buy most transplants at the garden store), I doubt the plants would ever exceed 12" in height, if that. I'd want to plant out any plant that is about 6-8."
4)Without more specifics, particularly your grow location, the only thing I see missing from your plan is the need to pot up, as I've addressed above. Also, planting out your peppers and tomatoes in July seems a bit late to me, but I guess it depends on where you live. I plant my tomatoes and peppers out on the week of average last frost, for me in Detroit, that is May 10. If all my seedlings have done well indoors, I'll even have some that I can risk planting earlier if the weather seems to be cooperating, like the last week of April. If we see a freeze, no big, there's more plants inside to replace any causalities.
Hope some of this helps. I'm by no means an expert gardener, but I've been starting seed indoors for a few years now with varying levels of success. I strongly suggest heat mats under seed trays and T5 lighting placed extremely close to the plants.
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applestar
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First it would be best if you tell us where you live.
For you to be thinking of transplanting/planting out so late, you must have awfully short growing season. Hopefully we can figure out a slightly better schedule that will give you a better chance of mature and ripe fruits before the end of the season and frost. Some of those look very iffy.
Cucurbits -- cukes, melons, squash -- shouldn't plan on keeping in seedling containers longer than 4 weeks at most. Say 5 weeks from seed sowing to allow for delay in germination.
Tomatoes planted out in mid July might not have time to mature in My garden let alone yours if your frost arrives earlier. Even the earliest maturing varietyies. Which ones did you intend to grow?
(I might be repeating dvlucke's comments but I will just submit this anyway
)
For you to be thinking of transplanting/planting out so late, you must have awfully short growing season. Hopefully we can figure out a slightly better schedule that will give you a better chance of mature and ripe fruits before the end of the season and frost. Some of those look very iffy.
Cucurbits -- cukes, melons, squash -- shouldn't plan on keeping in seedling containers longer than 4 weeks at most. Say 5 weeks from seed sowing to allow for delay in germination.
Tomatoes planted out in mid July might not have time to mature in My garden let alone yours if your frost arrives earlier. Even the earliest maturing varietyies. Which ones did you intend to grow?
(I might be repeating dvlucke's comments but I will just submit this anyway
)Thanks for all your responses. I'll try to answer all your questions.
I live in southern Ontario, Zone 5. I am using red and blue LED lights, so heat is not an issue, and they are mounted on shelves that are adjustable in 5" increments. The four basins, as they are currently planned, just barely fit onto the two shelves. Each shelf is 24" x 13". If I don't start the cucubits then that would give more room in the basins. What size of pot should I transplant them into?
On a separate note...
I built my garden on my roof last August, so I haven't planted anything on it yet. It's pretty remote from any green space, which should reduce the number of pests, but it will also reduce the number of beneficial insects. It also gets pretty windy up there. Is there anything I should be careful of (other than falling off), or monitor?
I live in southern Ontario, Zone 5. I am using red and blue LED lights, so heat is not an issue, and they are mounted on shelves that are adjustable in 5" increments. The four basins, as they are currently planned, just barely fit onto the two shelves. Each shelf is 24" x 13". If I don't start the cucubits then that would give more room in the basins. What size of pot should I transplant them into?
On a separate note...
I built my garden on my roof last August, so I haven't planted anything on it yet. It's pretty remote from any green space, which should reduce the number of pests, but it will also reduce the number of beneficial insects. It also gets pretty windy up there. Is there anything I should be careful of (other than falling off), or monitor?
As everyone has already mentioned, some things don't transplant all that well and are better started in the garden. If you plant them too early they will be too mature and will be stunted by the time you are ready to set them out unless they are uppotted in time. I just had to put some cucumber starts in the garden because I started them too early and they won't last until February.
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applestar
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OK, this is what you need -- Last (Average) Frost Date. Is Vesey's a reliable source of information? There might be others, but this is what I found. We can use these as reference though -- which is your closest Last Frost Date?
Canadian Frost Dates - Veseys
https://www.veseys.com/us/en/us/en/lear ... ost/canada
Ontario
Station ........Last Frost ....First Frost
Barrie ............May 26 ....September 16
Hamilton ...April 29 ....October 15
Kingston ..............May 2 ....October 10
London ..............May 9 ....October 8
Ottawa ..............May 6 ....October 5
Owen Sound ....May 12 ....October 15
Parry Sound ....May 17 ....September 28
Peterborough May 18 ....September 20
St. Catharines May 2 ....October 17
Sudbury ............May 17 ....September 25
Thunder Bay ......June 1 ....September 15
Timmins ..............June 8 ....September 6
Toronto ..............May 9 .....October 6
Windsor ............April 25 .....October 22
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rainbowgardener
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- Location: TN/GA 7b
It gives you something to go by. They are averages anyway, so the actual last frost date can always be plus or minus a week or two.
"Cucumber, zucchini, melon and squash: Start in early March, and transplant in mid June (14 weeks)
Ground cherry and Basil: Start in early March, and transplant in mid May (10 weeks)
Hot peppers: Start in late February, and transplant in early July (18 weeks)
Eggplant: Start in early February, and transplant in mid June (18 weeks)
Brussels sprouts: Start in early February, and transplant in mid May (14 weeks)
Tomatoes: Start in early March, and transplant in early July (16 weeks)"
But even though you want to have big healthy transplants, your timing is all off, unless you have huge amounts of space and lights to be growing big plants. 14 weeks is 98 days! Most zucchini takes only 50 days to maturity, I.e. first harvest. But of course your zucchini isn't going to be fruiting indoors, unless you have the right lighting to help induce fruiting and you hand pollinate. And you would have to keep up potting them in to bigger and bigger pots. Staying indoors in little pots too long isn't good for them. Have you grown any of these plants before? Do you have any idea how big a full size zucchini plant is? They get about five feet across. Are you going to have that under lights?
As people have said, the cucurbits don't really need to be started indoors, but they can be. But I start mine ON my average last frost date and grow them indoors for maybe three weeks while the soil is warming up. If your last frost date is May 9, your planting out dates are very conservative, especially for a rooftop garden. Rooftop means you are gardening in raised beds, that probably are not very deep, so the soil in them warms up fast and it is hot up there.
You should be able to plant everything by early June and you want to, to have them in better shape to withstand the really hot summer. Don't move your planting dates earlier, just figure on less weeks under the lights. All of that is way too long.
What is your water set up like for your rooftop garden and how much planting room do you have? These are big plants you are talking about, you are going to need a lot of room to grow even a couple plants of each thing you are talking about. Rooftop gardens can be very hot and dry. You will need to have plenty of easily accessible water. In summer heat, depending on how deep your beds are, you may need to be watering twice a day. These are mostly all very thirsty plants you are talking about.
In the meantime, as far as seed starting, you talked about the lights, but you didn't talk about heat. This https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/vi ... 48&t=33771
has a lot of good information about temperatures needed for germination and the effects of temps on germination time.
Personally, I would no longer try to start seeds indoors without a heat mat under them. Not only are they so much slower starting without it, but all that time while they are waiting to sprout, you have to keep them perfectly watered, never drying out, but not too wet or they will rot. The longer they stay in the soil, the less likely they are to make it.
Here's some seed starting basics: https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/vi ... 48&t=44183
Best Wishes and keep us posted on how it is all working out for you!
"Cucumber, zucchini, melon and squash: Start in early March, and transplant in mid June (14 weeks)
Ground cherry and Basil: Start in early March, and transplant in mid May (10 weeks)
Hot peppers: Start in late February, and transplant in early July (18 weeks)
Eggplant: Start in early February, and transplant in mid June (18 weeks)
Brussels sprouts: Start in early February, and transplant in mid May (14 weeks)
Tomatoes: Start in early March, and transplant in early July (16 weeks)"
But even though you want to have big healthy transplants, your timing is all off, unless you have huge amounts of space and lights to be growing big plants. 14 weeks is 98 days! Most zucchini takes only 50 days to maturity, I.e. first harvest. But of course your zucchini isn't going to be fruiting indoors, unless you have the right lighting to help induce fruiting and you hand pollinate. And you would have to keep up potting them in to bigger and bigger pots. Staying indoors in little pots too long isn't good for them. Have you grown any of these plants before? Do you have any idea how big a full size zucchini plant is? They get about five feet across. Are you going to have that under lights?
As people have said, the cucurbits don't really need to be started indoors, but they can be. But I start mine ON my average last frost date and grow them indoors for maybe three weeks while the soil is warming up. If your last frost date is May 9, your planting out dates are very conservative, especially for a rooftop garden. Rooftop means you are gardening in raised beds, that probably are not very deep, so the soil in them warms up fast and it is hot up there.
You should be able to plant everything by early June and you want to, to have them in better shape to withstand the really hot summer. Don't move your planting dates earlier, just figure on less weeks under the lights. All of that is way too long.
What is your water set up like for your rooftop garden and how much planting room do you have? These are big plants you are talking about, you are going to need a lot of room to grow even a couple plants of each thing you are talking about. Rooftop gardens can be very hot and dry. You will need to have plenty of easily accessible water. In summer heat, depending on how deep your beds are, you may need to be watering twice a day. These are mostly all very thirsty plants you are talking about.
In the meantime, as far as seed starting, you talked about the lights, but you didn't talk about heat. This https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/vi ... 48&t=33771
has a lot of good information about temperatures needed for germination and the effects of temps on germination time.
Personally, I would no longer try to start seeds indoors without a heat mat under them. Not only are they so much slower starting without it, but all that time while they are waiting to sprout, you have to keep them perfectly watered, never drying out, but not too wet or they will rot. The longer they stay in the soil, the less likely they are to make it.
Here's some seed starting basics: https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/vi ... 48&t=44183
Best Wishes and keep us posted on how it is all working out for you!
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jal_ut
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- Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:20 pm
- Location: Northern Utah Zone 5
Quote: " I live in Toronto, so according to the table May 9th would be the last frost date. I only just moved here, so I have no idea whether that is accurate or not."
May 9 th should work for you. Plant corn, beans, melons and squash on that date directly where it will grow. Cucumbers plant 2 weeks later.
Of course we have to plant near that date when the ground and weather is right. Can't plant in a rain storm if it happens to be stormy that day.
It will be worth while to start tomatoes and peppers in pots 8 weeks before planting out time. Probably start them mid March? Of course you can plant a couple of tomato seeds now and grow them in large pot to see what you get? Always fun to experiment.
May 9 th should work for you. Plant corn, beans, melons and squash on that date directly where it will grow. Cucumbers plant 2 weeks later.
Of course we have to plant near that date when the ground and weather is right. Can't plant in a rain storm if it happens to be stormy that day.
It will be worth while to start tomatoes and peppers in pots 8 weeks before planting out time. Probably start them mid March? Of course you can plant a couple of tomato seeds now and grow them in large pot to see what you get? Always fun to experiment.
Timing is everything. I can plant year round, but I still have timing issues. In cool weather the plants grow slower but this January has been warmer than usual so the plants grew faster than I anticipated. I did not plant all of my seed so I have some more to plant to make the adjustments. When you get close to your planting date you can plant some of your seeds and then wait a couple of weeks and plant a few more to hedge your bets.
I'm from Sault Ste. Marie (last frost date "full moon in June") so I feel your pain. Last year I tried starting many of the plants you listed inside and many of them weren't too happy by the time I got them outside (cucs, various squash, eggplants).
This year I'm just going to concentrate on my tomatoes and peppers inside, and do everything else from seed outside. I will probably start planting early (depending on the forecast) and be prepared to cover stuff outside if it gets too cold.
This year I'm just going to concentrate on my tomatoes and peppers inside, and do everything else from seed outside. I will probably start planting early (depending on the forecast) and be prepared to cover stuff outside if it gets too cold.
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jal_ut
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I really don't have a decent spot for starting seed in the house. I have this little shed out back that I was keeping a few hens in, but the hens are gone, so I decided to use it for starting seeds. The window is a double insulated panel. I have a shelf with a 4 foot fluorescent two tube fixture hanging on chains so its height is adjustable. This works out pretty well for me starting about the first of March. Too cold before that since the shed is not heated.
