aaronv
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Emerald artichoke origin?

Hello everyone,

I've been looking at the emerald artichoke - I understand it doesn't necessarily need to experience a harsh winter. That'd be beneficial for me in Tempe. First, I should ask - is that a good decision? We have hot/dry summers so I may need to employ some advanced tactics to get a good yield (partial cover, maybe a redneck swamp cooler setup? I wonder how much water that would take.)

Thoughts?

Anyway, before I can move on this, well. I'm going through the same thing all of you have, deciding how to choose varieties and seed. I want to avoid GMO. I am fine with hybrid varieties. Open-pollinated and heirloom are great, and I understand why stable varieties are valued so highly by some people. Certified varieties come with certain guarantees. The only thing I want to avoid is GMO, so I feel I have to scrutinize anything that's not certified.

(I don't want to open the lid on a discussion of values - I hope it's okay to just state mine and move on!)

So, since emerald is a hybrid, and I don't think anyone sells certified seed, I want to know where it came from, who developed it, and who owns the variety now. All I can find is:
- There used to be a website called emeraldartichoke.com
- That website came down in early 2015
- Emerald is a PVP variety, I think that means a corporation owns it.
- Its seed became available on the market in 1990, but it was being grown before then
- It was derived from the Globe artichoke

I wrote to a couple seed companies asking: who owns emerald now? who developed emerald in the 1980s? Some of them have replied, but they couldn't answer those two particular questions. Is there any easy way to find that info? (and perhaps, if I'm going too far with this, tell me why it doesn't matter)

Thanks!

theforgottenone1013
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Re: Emerald artichoke origin?

Any seed a home gardener can buy is non-GMO. So you have nothing to worry about when it comes to that. What type of certification are you looking for?

As for getting artichokes in the first year, the plants themselves must be vernalized for that to happen. I suggest you do some research on it.

Artichokes are from the Mediterranean and do well in areas with mild winters (which is why they do so well in California). They definitely don't need "harsh winters" to produce. In fact, they will die over winter in zones 6 and below if not protected. Even zone 7 can be tricky to grow artichokes in.

And the plants will be fine in full sun with average water, no need to take drastic measures.

Who owns Emerald? Looks like United Genetics (don't let the name scare you) has the rights to its distribution. https://www.unitedgenetics.com/whatsnew/06june.htm

-Rodney
Last edited by theforgottenone1013 on Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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applestar
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Re: Emerald artichoke origin?

I have heard this also, that GMO seeds are not directly sold for home gardens (I don't know about private re-sale sites like eBay, etc.) If you don't want to support GMO, then a home gardener might avoid doing business with/buying products from GMo-supporting or affiliated companies. If you are merely concerned about not growing them, then that's that.

What you might also think about in addition to hybrid vs. open pollinated varieties, is whether the seeds are organically grown seeds. Another consideration is whether they are treated seeds.

Unless they mention specifically that the seeds are not treated or naturally treated, I would suspect most commercially sold garden seeds to be chemically treated with fungicides and possibly pesticides. (You NEVER want to grow them for eating sprouts and sprouted seeds without verifying.)

Have you read this : Subject: First Harvest of Spring - Coolest thing I've ever grown!

Territorial Seeds offers Emerald and has a pretty detailed growing instructions on their page (but keep in mind they are located in the Pacific Northwest)

https://www.territorialseed.com/product/ ... ke_cardoon

Note in particular:
... Transplant after the danger of frost has passed, but when the seedlings can still receive 10-12 days of temperatures under 50°F, which induces earlier budding. The period of cool temperatures needed to stimulate growth and flowering varies with location and variety.
I'm glad you brought this up. I wanted to consider growing them.
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aaronv
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Re: Emerald artichoke origin?

theforgottenone1013 wrote:Any seed a home gardener can buy is non-GMO. So you have nothing to worry about when it comes to that. What type of certification are you looking for?
I had no idea. Is this a matter of law? I don't particularly care about organically certified seed, except that anything carrying this label is almost guaranteed not to have inherited any GMO traits even by accident. Which is, I guess, a pretty big deal. So it depends how distrustful one is as a buyer, I suppose.

Okay, enough on that topic. Back to artichokes.

Since artichokes have deep root systems, is there any way to use the space in between artichoke plants during the growing season? Does a covering of say, arugula have any negative impact?
Last edited by aaronv on Thu Jan 07, 2016 1:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

aaronv
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Re: Emerald artichoke origin?

Oh, here's the origin information I was after. Interesting enough, Territorial is the seed company that came through for me. I don't know if they send their customer service guys around with Director titles just to make people feel important, but the guy who responded to me was their director of customer relations I mean horticulture development.

https://seedquest.com/News/releases/2006/june/16150.htm

imafan26
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Re: Emerald artichoke origin?

This is very true. Monsanto, Pioneer, and Seneca sell their seed mostly to farmers and wholesalers. The companies that Monsanto owns that sells to the public only sell non-GMO seeds to the public. That is not to say that the public cannot get their hands on GMO plants either on purpose or by accident. Monsanto usually wants to control who gets their seed especially if someone is profitting from it, because they want their royalties.

When Monsanto sells their GMO seed, they make the buyers sign an agreement not to propagate the plants from the seed. Farmers complain that it forces them to buy their expensive seeds.
However, the company counters that their seeds are patented and they are entitled to recover their R&D costs. The patent laws also make it the reponsibility of the patent holder to defend their patent. If something becomes so common that it becomes synonymous with the product then the companies stand to lose a lot. Take Xerox, they almost lost their trade name because their name became synomomous with thier product. Coke was close as well as most people call colas Coke whether it is the Coca Cola brand or not.


To get the Sunup papaya seed from the University of Hawaii, I had to go down to the Ag department on the UH campus, watch an educational film on GMO and sign my life away promising that I would not give away or propagate the seeds.
All that so that I could get on the list to order the seeds. I had to get GMO papayas because PRSV was so rampant because my neighbors never bothered to cut down their infected trees and all of my Malaysian papayas were infected and useless by the time they were 3 ft tall. With squash planted all around the community garden, only GMO papayas will not get sick.

Back in those days, I never thought about the GMO papaya cross breeding. 90% of the commercial papaya is GMO or PRSV resistant. 10% is standard bred. To keep the standards non-GMO the growers have to rougue out any papaya planted by the birds and keep them isolated I think something like 600 ft from other papayas. And squash and papaya cannot be planted together. Land is very costly here so most farmers put more than one crop on the land, but PRSV is probably a mutated squash virus and the squash can be hosts. There is a way now to test papaya to see if it is GMO or not, you cannot tell by just looking at it, unless it is the only healthy papaya around PRSV infected papaya. Then it is a good bet that it has some GMO genes.

A lot of people are very ill informed about GMO plants. They say they do not want GMO plants but many don't realize that that they may already have it in their back yards.

It takes three years of growing organically non-gmo, no synthetic fertilizers, or synthetic pesticides. Organic amendments like compost and manures are allowed and some organic approved pesticides are allowed and because they are short acting, they have to be applied more often (Neem, insecticidal soap, Ultrafine oils, Bt). Seeds have to be organic and they have to have established buffer zones between organic and non-organic and you have to keep records in order to get the initial certification.
https://agr.wa.gov/foodanimal/organic/Ce ... lified.pdf

Interestingly, I asked the guys who take care of the fish if the fish food was organic. He said that there isn't any organic fish food but they were working with a supplier to get some developed. I asked if all inputs had to be organic and they are using fish food that is not organic then is the crop organic. He said since organic fish food was not available, there was an exception to the organic rules that allows the non-organic fish food in organic crop production.

There are actually some synthetics and exceptions that are allowed by the NOP. Even what is organic isn't always what you think it is.

https://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/oc/freepubs/pdf/FST-56.pdf
https://lee.ifas.ufl.edu/AgNatRes/Pubs/' ... _farms.pdf

Back to artichokes. If you grow artichokes you can grow them from division of root cuttings and you will get better artichokes. If you grow them from seed. they often revert to thistles and the ones that get better usually take a couple of years before they are edible. It is a large plant and perennial in mild winter areas. Like asparagus, you have to have a long term place for them and they do not produce year round. In hotter areas, you need to plant them at the higher elevations where it will be cooler and where they can be shaded from the strong sun otherwise they can become tough and inedible.

In warm climates Imperial Star is supposed to be a good artichoke to grow from seed and is treated more like an annual crop instead of a perennial. The artichokes are supposed to be good quality even from seed. It does have to be planted in Late summer so it matures in cool weather.

Johnny's Seed sells this variety.

https://www.johnnyseeds.com/p-5438-imperial-star.aspx

Although I do sell herbs at the monthly plant sale, they are not organic. I have some organic seed but I cannot get organic seeds for everything. I do use synthetic slow release fertilizers as a starter fertilizer. I try to move the plants out every 6 weeks so I usually do not fertilize them again except for peppers which I will keep in pots for three months or more. Usually the older plants, I will move into the herb garden where they will be much happier not being confined.
I do try to use organic amendments compost, vermicompost, bone meal, blood meal, green manures but it has still been extremely alkaline and poor in nitrogen. The best organic nitrogen source was organic lawn fertilizer but it was still not enough so I am using sulfate of ammonia. It helps with the alkalinity and it gives the plants the one thing they need the most, nitrogen.

For the most part I am using fennel, four o'clocks and crackerjack marigolds for pest control. I do have to use copper sulfate mainly because it is really hard to find sulfur dust, but I only use it on the plants that need it. Mainly to treat daylily rust and only after I have tried to cut them back to control the disease. Companion planting and getting rid of the sick plants takes care of most of the pest problems. I have a problem with cabbage butterflies and I have tried netting them but they keep coming back so I am trying to get dipel. It is not that easy a product to get retail.

In general, I don't use pesticides on seedlings. I will cull sick plants and I have thrown sick plants from other benches out of the greenhouse to keep them from spreading white flies. I do get sweet basil from my mother for the sale because she does not have a problem with downy mildew. I will dip them in neem the night before the sale as a preventive because the garden does have downy mildew and it is the only exception. For everything else, they just get a jet of water or they get thrown out.

Snails are not a problem at the herb garden, I have no idea why. The mongoose will dig things up, but they do eat grubs and insects. I just have to get to the figs before the birds do and net the Hawaiian chilies and I plant peppers they have a harder time getting to. There hasn't been an aphid problem in years except for one sickly Kale which was remedied by getting rid of the kale. Black aphids are taken care of by trap plants (nasturtiums) and cutting the chives and green onions down to the ground when they are heavily infested.

For the customers who ask why I tell them that if they want an organically grown product expect them to cost twice as much and be puny in 2 inch pots and struggling. They occasionally have them available at Walmart.
It is hard to do organics in a pot. Organic fertilizers are not readily available to plants and seedlings need a lot of nitrogen in the beginning and organic fertilizers are nitrogen poor. You need micro-organizms in the soil to make the organic fertilizer available and those micro organisms are converting the organics not for the plants but for themselves to use and it is released slowly, not necessarily at a rate that young plants require. In a pot the plant cannot reach out an gather other resources, everything has to be available to them in that pot.
Happy gardening in Hawaii. Gardens are where people grow.

theforgottenone1013
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Re: Emerald artichoke origin?

applestar wrote:Another consideration is whether they are treated seeds.

Unless they mention specifically that the seeds are not treated or naturally treated, I would suspect most commercially sold garden seeds to be chemically treated with fungicides and possibly pesticides. (You NEVER want to grow them for eating sprouts and sprouted seeds without verifying.)
It would be a huge waste of time and, more importantly, money for seed companies to treat all their seeds and there would be no benefit to the gardener. Corn and peas are often treated to prevent rotting in cool soil but they are almost always labeled as such and the seeds will have a funny color to them.
applestar wrote:Territorial Seeds offers Emerald and has a pretty detailed growing instructions on their page (but keep in mind they are located in the Pacific Northwest)

https://www.territorialseed.com/product/ ... ke_cardoon

Note in particular:
... Transplant after the danger of frost has passed, but when the seedlings can still receive 10-12 days of temperatures under 50°F, which induces earlier budding. The period of cool temperatures needed to stimulate growth and flowering varies with location and variety.
That's one of the points I was talking about in my previous comment. Purposely exposing the plants to cool temperatures in order to induce budding is called vernalizing. You basically make the plant think it has gone through a winter already.

-Rodney

aaronv
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Re: Emerald artichoke origin?

imafan26 wrote:Back to artichokes. If you grow artichokes you can grow them from division of root cuttings and you will get better artichokes. If you grow them from seed. they often revert to thistles and the ones that get better usually take a couple of years before they are edible. It is a large plant and perennial in mild winter areas. Like asparagus, you have to have a long term place for them and they do not produce year round. In hotter areas, you need to plant them at the higher elevations where it will be cooler and where they can be shaded from the strong sun otherwise they can become tough and inedible.
I'm looking into various types of summer shading. I might put temp and humidity sensors in my side yard and experiment to see what's the best option for making my hot weather milder. If it's still too hot I could get a little more creative. But I'm pretty sure the heat in Maricopa Valley will have a negative affect. I'll just have to work on it.
imafan26 wrote:This is very true. Monsanto, Pioneer, and Seneca sell their seed mostly to farmers and wholesalers. The companies that Monsanto owns that sells to the public only sell non-GMO seeds to the public. That is not to say that the public cannot get their hands on GMO plants either on purpose or by accident. Monsanto usually wants to control who gets their seed especially if someone is profitting from it, because they want their royalties.
Thanks for the information, this is very interesting.
I apologize to everyone for sparking such an impossible topic. I would say that this is a multi-faceted consideration, and that it's complicated; the multiple different aspects cross boundaries onto each other; basically, this whole thing leads to a lot of miscommunication because different people may have different definitions.

What I have learned is that I don't have access to anything modified, intentionally. Irresponsible growing practices could result in modified traits making it into my seed packet, but that comes to trust. And I'm also not certain if there are modified varieties of artichoke - as far as I can tell the genetics companies are focusing on manufacturing staples with large demand in the market, like tomatoes, apples, grains, beans, etc.
imafan26 wrote:It takes three years of growing organically non-gmo, no synthetic fertilizers, or synthetic pesticides. Organic amendments like compost and manures are allowed and some organic approved pesticides are allowed and because they are short acting, they have to be applied more often (Neem, insecticidal soap, Ultrafine oils, Bt). Seeds have to be organic and they have to have established buffer zones between organic and non-organic and you have to keep records in order to get the initial certification.
The thing I find unfortunate is that these requirements muddle several different points of view, leading to a lot of miscommunication. Someone like me who just wants to avoid modified traits in seed as well as chemicals on the produce I eat, well, I don't care what kind of fertilizer the parent plant was exposed to when I'm buying seed. I don't care if there is pesticide residue on the seeds since I don't grow my own sprouts. What I want to know is that the supplier takes some care to prevent propagation of traits. Meaning, I have no qualms growing a hybrid variety from non-organic seed as long as I know its origin.

When I talk about certified organic seed, I'm thinking about how I'm certain that almost all specimens have no GMO traits. Cool.
When my friend down the street talks about certified organic, she may be most interested that the seeds are only allowed to have certain kinds of pesticide residue on them that are less toxic.

The generalized labels the industry uses right now don't provide the specific information I'm on about. Certified Organic is a federal standard, great, but it's complicated, most consumers don't understand, and it goes farther than I feel the need to. When a market labels something organic or heirloom, when a seed distributor labels something a natural hybrid, organic, or heirloom, well, they could be trying to communicate any number of different things.

At this point I somewhat wish I had split these two conversations. Thanks for putting up with the off-topic. I'll be more careful in the future.

aaronv
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Re: Emerald artichoke origin?

theforgottenone1013 wrote: That's one of the points I was talking about in my previous comment. Purposely exposing the plants to cool temperatures in order to induce budding is called vernalizing. You basically make the plant think it has gone through a winter already.

-Rodney
Has anyone experimented with vernalizing in a lit refrigerator? I missed the right cold weather by about two weeks. I can make sure the plants keep getting light and water, but I'm not sure if they'll suffocate if placed inside a closed fridge for 8-10 hours at a time.

There are similar questions on this board's history, but there aren't many thoughts in reply.

imafan26
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Re: Emerald artichoke origin?

All certified organic seed by definition have to be non-GMO. Regular seeds although not certified organic that are sold to the public are usually still non-gmo. All treated seed, (usually they are treated with captan because some seeds have a tendency to rot in the soil) cannot be certified organic but are also usually non-GMO.

Most seed companies have to isolate their fields if they are growing them for their seeds. Hybrids take multiple steps since they have to back breed the parents then breed the parents to get the hybrid seeds.

It is not to say that mistakes don't happen. Most seed companies don't grow their own seed, but contract it out and just package the bulk seed. Sometimes they put the wrong seeds in the packet and more than a few times I have gotten empty packets with no seed in them, but reputable companies will replace the seeds. That is why it is better to order seeds from seed companies instead of a box store where you may not find out about the problem too late to get your money back. Problems are rare and most of the time you get what you pay for.

If all you want is that the seed be the strain you want, then most seeds you purchase from a reputable company fit that definition.

Most of the seeds grown by the UH are grown organically. I visited the research station. They isolate their non-gmo papaya and they are using organic techniques, but only one field has been certified. Even if they did, the seed lab does proccess multiple seeds and they do proccess GMO papaya seed (which they do not grow on the stations. That is in cooperation with Monsanto) in the seed lab so the seed lab cannot be certified. I visited the seed lab and asked them how they keep from mixing up the seeds of the different strains of papaya. The lab is very small really the size of a double classroom and half of that is storage (walk in freezer). They said they only proccess one type of papaya at a time. They are dependent on the station managers to manage the fields and harvest the fruit for the seeds. The field managers mail the whole fruit to the seed lab and the lab has to process the seeds.

You will pay more for certiified organic, "organic", GMO, and some heirloom seeds.
Happy gardening in Hawaii. Gardens are where people grow.

theforgottenone1013
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Re: Emerald artichoke origin?

aaronv wrote:
theforgottenone1013 wrote: That's one of the points I was talking about in my previous comment. Purposely exposing the plants to cool temperatures in order to induce budding is called vernalizing. You basically make the plant think it has gone through a winter already.

-Rodney
Has anyone experimented with vernalizing in a lit refrigerator? I missed the right cold weather by about two weeks. I can make sure the plants keep getting light and water, but I'm not sure if they'll suffocate if placed inside a closed fridge for 8-10 hours at a time.

There are similar questions on this board's history, but there aren't many thoughts in reply.
Seems doubtful that keeping them in a fridge would work. Just keeping the plants in good condition inside a fridge sounds iffy. I suppose it might be worth a try with a few plants.

The one time I attempted to grow artichokes (in 2014) I didn't get any buds in the first year (and the plants died on me over the winter so there was no second year). I had thought I sufficiently vernalized the plants that first year since I had them outside well before the last frost but apparently I didn't do it correctly. It's my assumption that the plants have to be of a certain age prior to vernalizing and because my seedlings were still very young I believe that's why I failed.

Here's a publication from the Virginia Cooperative Extension on growing Artichokes that's worth reading.

-Rodney

theforgottenone1013
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Re: Emerald artichoke origin?

Some brief info about seed labels.

-Organic: These are seeds that were collected from plants grown organically. Note that does not mean they are chemical-free or pesticide-free. They are non-GMO by law.

-Hybrid: Anything that has "F1" in its name or is labeled as such is a hybrid. They are produced by intentionally crossing specific varieties of the same species/type. It's a very involved process that ensures all seed will perform the same. The crossing may be highly manipulated but it's still considered natural.

You mentioned in a previous comment that you "have no qualms growing a hybrid variety from non-organic seed as long as I know its origin". If by origin you mean the parentage of the hybrid then you're never likely to know. It takes years to develop a new hybrid and that secret is closely guarded by the company that produces the seed.

-Heirloom: An old variety passed down and grown for generations. These are also open pollinated. Although lately I've come to the conclusion that this term has become bastardized and no longer means what it should (pardon my language).

-Open Pollinated (or OP): These will breed true from saved seed if cross pollination is prevented. In time, even a newly developed/released OP variety can eventually become an heirloom.

-GMO (Genetically Modified Organism), GM (Genetically Modified), GE (Genetically Engineered): These all mean the same. They have had genes from a separate, unrelated organism, whether it's plant or bacteria or whatever, spliced into another. Not a natural process, obviously.

For the home or small scale grower, since we can't buy GMO seeds legally without first signing a contract, the only way we could purposely get them would be illegally. Otherwise the only possible concern we should have about GMO seeds and traits would be from potential accidental cross pollination. But since the list of GMO plants grown is small, there is really only one main garden crop that even remotely concerns us: Corn. Corn is wind pollinated and varieties very easily cross if grown near each other. If a GM corn were to cross with a normal variety the resulting seed would be contaminated. Plants grown to produce seed for sale are usually grown in isolation though so this isn't much of an issue.

-Rodney

imafan26
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Re: Emerald artichoke origin?

If you want a specific type of seed then you should buy the seeds. OP seeds do breed true but only if they are grown in isolation. Hybrids will have the traits of their parents but if the hybrid is not yet stable the progeny can be variable.
Organic farmers are allowed to use chemicals for pest control and they often have to use more and more often, they are just limited to what is available to them.

Treated seeds are always labeled as treated and with a warning that the seeds are not to be eaten. They are usually dyed to make it even more obvious. Seeds that are prone to rotting are usually the only seeds that are sold treated with a fungicide most commonly captan.

There is really nothing natural about the seeds that are grown today unless you have wild tomatoes and bittermelon. Most seeds were manipulated either through traditional breeding taking multiple generations of breeding plants with qualities that people liked or the route where plants do not have the desired trait, the trait can be spliced into its DNA. To all organisms the 4 chemicals that make up DNA are the same, it is their arrangement that makes them different. If a plant could be found with the desired trait and it could be bred in it would take many generations to breed the trait in and it would not be pure, there would be other traits that might come with it, some of which would have to be bred out. In some cases the industry or species would be devastated before it could be accomplished.

Look how long it is taking to breed downy mildew resistance into sweet basil. There are other basils that are known to be resistant and they can be traditionally bred together but the basil would not taste the same.

About 10,000 years ago, some humans started to build permanent settlements and leave their nomadic life behind. Instead of gathering wild wheat, they began to plant wheat deliberately and cultivate fields for food security. Later they chose to plant the seeds of wheat that had the traits they liked and bred out a lot of the wild traits to the point where modern wheat cannot propagate themselves without the humans planting the seeds.
Happy gardening in Hawaii. Gardens are where people grow.

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