Bringing in forest dirt.

[redneck647]

From my other posts my soil Is mostly hard clay with little living matter in it. And I'm not going to have enough compost to make a big difrance over the whole thing for next year.
So my idea is to go into the woods with a shovle and 5 gallon bucket and bring back some new dirt to mix with it. And before you Ask yes I do own the land there.
Anyway how many square feet do you think I can cover with 5 gallon of forest dirt? And how deep can I dig to get it?
Thanks for any advice.

[imafan26]

Forest humus is only the top 4 inches of soil. It teems with microbes. However, if you look at the nutrients in a forest, it ifs relatively poor. The forest recycles itself growing photosynthesizing amino acids to create leaves and wood and then dropping leaves, branches and eventually the whole tree to rot and recycle the nutrients in the mass. You don't see many weeds in the forest and while forest trees drop a lot of seeds, most of those are carried away by other critters that live in the forest and new trees will only grow where there is enough light and space to support them.

If you are amending your current soil and you are not doing raised beds then:
1. If you have a greenwaste/composting facility, you can get compost by the truckload relatively cheap, much cheaper than by the bag. It looks like there is one in Shamokin if that is near you
https://www.wm.com/find-a-facility.jsp# ... dius=80500

This is a commercial one, it will probably cost more but they do have a garden mix.
https://superiornursery.com/Mulch___Compost.html

2. If you have poor hard clay, you will need to add drainage material as well.

3. If you want to be organic, it will take about 3 years for the garden to be able to put out as much as a conventionally fertilized one. So you will need to supplement fertilizer frequently.
4. Starting with mostly clay
Add about 6-8 inches of compost (not the forest humus yet)
Add drainage material roughly 1/3 the volume of soil of sharp sand. (Builders sand=You can buy that by the truckload from the local buiding supply)
Add composted manure. If you are going to overwinter you can get stable or pasture manure, preferably aged. You will be aging it at least 4 months more before planting your food crop. Around 2 inches over the area.
Till this together to get a homogenous mix. It should fluff up and be higher than your original soil so mound it into beds with pathways between the beds (no more than 4 ft wide)
Top with the humus about an inch over the beds and work it in with a shovel. It contains living organisms so you want to be gentle and minimize damage.
You can use an organic fertilizer like 10-10-10 or if you are not intending to be 100% organic at this point, you can use any balanced fertilizer that is available. Your plants were deficient in nitrogen from the pictures you posted and overall growth was slow. Nitrogen is a limiting factor of growth.
Plant a fall cover crop, preferably a legume. like red clover or hairy vetch. You will probably need to inoculate for better results. The cover crop will prevent erosion, the deeper roots of hairy vetch will help to further break up the hard soil below, and with the help of the inoculant will fix nitrogen from the air and release that nitrogen back to the soil slowly for the next crop.

You need to select the right inoculant for the legume. It has a limited shelf life because it contains live microorganisms so you want to use all of it before it expires. Be sure to follow the directions to coat the seeds well right before planting.
https://www.johnnyseeds.com/c-217-inoculants.aspx You will till in the cover crop when it starts to flower.

Before you plant your crops next year, get a soil test, I know it can be hard to do when the ground is frozen. If you want organic ask for organic recommendations, otherwise they will give you conventional advice on fertilization.

You should wait about 6 months after you add amendments especially if you are correcting pH, in order to get an accurate reading.

Before you plant, you can add additional compost with the recommended started fertilizer.

[tomc]

That duff (top few inches of soil) in your woods is the only thing your trees have to eat. The more of it you take, and the more often you take it, the more likely your woods are to decline.

Collect autumn leaves and yard waste being put out for thrash collection in place of that duff.

[gumbo2176]

Like already mentioned, forest soil is just not real good. All you have to do is look at the Amazon Rain Forests that are being cut down for lumber sales or for agricultural use and in a few years time, the soil is depleted of all nutrients and it becomes a wasteland subject to heavy erosion.

If you own a good size piece of land, start your own compost pile. Bring in a few truckloads of stable waste and add your yard waste of grass clippings, leaves, kitchen waste of egg shells, vegetable scraps, coffee grinds, etc. and let it break down over a 6 month period then add it to your soil.

[rainbowgardener]

Here's a similar question someone else posted and the responses: https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/vi ... 11&t=63110

I remember some of you previous posts about your extremely bad soil and how stunted everything was you tried to grow in it. What I don't remember is if you told us how big an area you are trying to garden. Your 5-gallon bucket of forest humus (or whatever) isn't going to make any difference if your garden is much bigger than say 8'x8'. Even at that size you won't have made a huge difference.

And yes, the best thing for your garden would be your own home-made compost. I think I have suggested before that you really need to get started composting everything you can get your hands on. But even so, by spring you aren't likely to have enough home made compost to make much difference, unless again, your garden is very small.

You really need to work NOW (this fall) on a large scale amendment, so that you will have better soil in the spring. That means a truckload of something, NOT a 5 gallon bucket. If you live somewhere near a stable and have a truck, they will usually give away manure mixed with bedding straw. If you mix a truckload of that in to your garden space and then let it sit until spring, next year's garden will be way better than this year's was. Otherwise, you are looking for truckloads of something organic and enriching.

[applestar]

If you have a forest/woods, you'll probably have tons of extra fall leaves. To start off -- You could put a snow fence around the garden and pile up the leaves inside, then hold that down with some fence or tarp or something to keep from blowing away.

With fall and winter on the way, you have lots of options to improve the garden by spring.

Another method is to plant cover crops. If you use power machinery to work your garden you can get away with heavier crops that need to get tilled in. Early September to early October is right timing to plant cereal and other cool weather cover crops around here so probably you, too.

If you are willing to pull the plug on the garden now and sow a fast growing cover crop for a decent top layer of green before growing season is completely over, you could top that with the pile of brown fall leaves later. Then you won't even have to worry about the brown/green.

[redneck647]

Thanks everyone.

I don't have any real green waste places in my area that I can find. I do know of one source for truck loads of compost but everything I've heard is that its full of seeds and I'm afraid to introduce all the new weeds to my garden if I don't have to.
I was under the impression that the forest soil could work as a substitute for compost to help get things started before next spring? I'm guessing I was wrong there?

Is the drainage material really needed? I live on the side of a hill. The garden is still relatively flat but still has a little bit of a slope to it. I haven't had any real drainage problems yet so will adding the compost or something it with it cause some?
Also I’ve heard that adding sand to clay is a bad idea because it will make the clay harder. Is there any truth to that?

Also I have trouble finding stuff out here. If I cant get the inoculant would it be worth planing the cover crop without it? Ordering might take to long to get here. But I will look into it.

I'm not really too worried about the woods. I don't plan on completely stripping the area and my plan was only to do this the one time. If I do.
I have stared a compost pile I just don't believe I'll have enough yet to make much of a difference this fall.

Rainbow I actually saw that post and read it after making this one.

My garden is 3 sections each 6' x 6' so around 108 square feet. I figured it will take more than a buckets worth.
Also you have and I am working on the compost. But as you say I won't have enough yet. That's why I was hoping to use the forest soil to help add a little to the whole thing before next year.

And my ability to haul anything this fall is kinda shot after I wrecked last month.

Applestar 2/3rds of the garden is already empty now for this year. The last 3rd is only trying to finish the tomatoes and get the last of the seeds from my lettuce plants.

I will have a lot of leaves come fall so I will try that. basically I would be making the garden into a compost pile until spring correct?

[Taiji]

I don't think it's ever a waste of time to have a cover crop going. If you don't have inoculant, at least plant one of the ryes or buckwheat or something. Even the legumes which do best with an inoculant would not be a waste of time. The ryes will last thru the winter, then you have all that time to think about other things to get next spring!
I built my house in which I live of authentic adobe here in AZ. It's true that the best adobe is anywhere from 25% to 35% clay to the rest sand, but that's when it's puddled, put into forms and sitting in the sun to dry. The key to keeping it from doing that is to add lots of organic matter. Cover crops are a good start. I don't think adding some sharp sand will do any harm. (but not up to 75%!)

[gumbo2176]

Thanks everyone.

I don't have any real green waste places in my area that I can find. I do know of one source for truck loads of compost but everything I've heard is that its full of seeds and I'm afraid to introduce all the new weeds to my garden if I don't have to.

I get a lot of my green waste from the local grass cutters that work the cemeteries in my area, but I live in the city and there are a lot of cemeteries very close to my house. On any given Friday I can get anywhere between 15-20 large bags of grass clippings.

In the fall when the leaves start falling, I drive through my neighborhood and pick up as many garbage bags of leaf material I have need for. I'll take this and the grass clippings and add some to the compost pile and the rest I'll use in the garden. First I'll put down a layer of cardboard between the rows then layer the clippings and leaves on top of the cardboard. By spring it has broken down and can be turned under for the new planting.

Unlike your situation, I can garden year round here in the deep south.

[imafan26]

The only facility I could find in Pennsylvania was in Shamokin. There are nurseries that sell bulk compost and soil mixes.

Rainbow's idea will probably work best

You can get a truckload of manure from stables and maybe some farms sometimes they charge, chicken farms charge a nominal fee and stables are usually glad if you haul it away.

If you have a farm supply near you, you can get straw for browns and you can ask some of the grocers and restaurants for their vegetable waste as well as any kitchen green waste you can get. You can also ask your neighbors for leaves they will be raking up in the fall anyway, and you have trees, so you have leaves you can collect.

Put down cardboard or newspaper on the bed to smother the weeds and layer browns and greens; moistening the layers as you go and ending with a layer of straw when you get up to about 18 inches. Throw about 4 inches of potting soil on top with some fertilizer and plant in that. You can plant a fall crop or better yet a cover crop. By next year the layers should be mostly decomposed. Keep adding compost to the top and it should be ready for planting next year.

You have been talking about starting a compost pile for a while, and if you don't have a close source for bulk compost, you will have to buy it in bags. In the long run it will be easier to start the pile and now is a good time to build it. Pallets make good enclosures. You have space for a three bin system. One to build, one to cook, and the last one to use.
You can make compost faster if you have it balanced right, it is high enough to heat up and you turn it more often. This is where it is nice to have machinery, but it can be done manually. You need to start the pile soon before it gets colder and the microbes slow down for winter. The minimum size of a compost piles is 3x3x3 in order to heat up properly. A little bigger is better since it shrinks as it decomposes.
https://deepgreenpermaculture.com/diy-in ... n-18-days/

[redneck647]

I'm sorry for any confusion. I started my compost pile in the spring but its only one bin and doesn't have enough in it to make much of a dent this year.
It was my first attempt and I made a few mistakes but hopefully next year I'll get more compost.

Once the leaves start to fall I should have plenty from just here. I spent most of the sumer adding last years leaves to the pile.
I'll figure out what I'm doing and try to add the leaves to the garden this fall.

[gumbo2176]

I'm sorry for any confusion. I started my compost pile in the spring but its only one bin and doesn't have enough in it to make much of a dent this year.
It was my first attempt and I made a few mistakes but hopefully next year I'll get more compost.

Once the leaves start to fall I should have plenty from just here. I spent most of the sumer adding last years leaves to the pile.
I'll figure out what I'm doing and try to add the leaves to the garden this fall.

Run your mower over the leaves so they decompose quicker. I do this with leaves and it breaks down much faster than putting them in the pile whole. As for compost, I simply have a large pile and no bins. Get out there and turn it over every week to 10 days to help move the stuff around and make it break down faster. And don't let it completely dry out.

[imafan26]

If you order inoculant from the seed companies they usually send it by mail in a couple of weeks. It has to be kept in a cool place. I keep mine in the frig. You only use inoculants if you want to increase nitrogen fixing and that can only be done with the legumes. The grains rye, buckwheat, oats, sorghum, will be adding biomass.

I thought you had red clay soil. Usually clay is hard and packs tight, drainage material will loosen it up. Compost loosens and and adds water holding capacity. With clay that can be a problem because clay likes to hold on to water too. Compost needs to be added continually, and it sinks over time the drainage material does not pack down and lasts longer in the soil.

If you have neighbors you can ask them for their greens as well. Fall is usually a good time to get leaves people are raking up. Grass clippings are good and if your tree trimmers only bring tree leaves and chipped bark without weeds that is good too. Most of the tree trimmers will gladly bring a truckload of tree trimmings when they are in the area. Here I can call the utility company. They will also bring chipped tree trimmings when they are trimming in the area. I just don't know when that is going to happen and they just drop it off whereever it is accessible.

If you do use grass clippings from somewhere else make sure you know what chemicals were used on them. Some herbicides may persist for a while.

[HoneyBerry]

I use a soil builder product called HUMAGIC. It is a high end gardening product. It is what compost aspires to be. It may or may not be something you are interested in, but here is a link to the website that sells the product in case you want to investigate:

https://www.hendrikusorganics.com

I picked my bag up at a health food store. It is dark in color, very rich looking. I mix it into my garden soil. My soil is different from yours, however.

I found the following information about clay soil on the HENDRIKUS website:

"Compacted and Clay Soils
Compaction occurs when soil has been packed down so tightly, there is not space for air and water to get through. Roots have great difficulty penetrating compacted soil and it often forces odd growth patterns in them as a result.
Compaction is caused by tilling soil when it is wet, as well as excessive foot traffic (human or animal) or farm machinery going over the topsoil. A lack of organic matter also contributes to compaction. To prevent this issue, we must first stop doing the things that cause the problem. don't work soil when it is wet and avoid heavy traffic over it.
Clay soil is wet and sticky. It crusts and cracks when it is dry. Like compacted soil, plant roots have a hard time getting through clay soil, as does water and air. It does not drain well and takes a long time to warm up in the spring. Clay, although one of the ingredients of a balanced soil, alone is not ideal for growing much of anything.
To remedy compacted or clay soils, work in 6 to 8 inches of organic matter, such as manure or yard waste, that is well composted. Loosen the soil as you do this, working it in with a shovel or pitch fork by hand, or with a tiller or an aerator. Over time, microorganisms will break down the organic matter further and they will help aerate the soil as well.
Be sure to amend the entire garden area. If you only amend the hole you plant in, it is no different from planting in flowerpots. Your soil will not be improved and healthy, and your plants will not be happy and strong."

[tomc]

Once years ago I went to my local Dunkin' Donuts (across the street) and bought coffees for lawn services who drove up. I offered to take for free (the town charged a tipping fee to lawn services) their leaves and grass clippings. A couple dropped once. One service dumped over 100 loads. it was the best garden I ever had...

[redneck647]

Thanks everyone.
I'll see what I can do.
I have another dumb question. I know clay shouldn't be worked wet. So am I correct to assume I need to wait for a dry spell before trying to mix anything into the garden?
Also to keep resources low I think I'm going to just fix a 6'x6' area for next year. Maybe try to grow the few things that did well this year in the rest just to get some use out of it but my main effort will be in the smaller area until I can get everything fixed up.

[jal_ut]

OK, if you own the woods, it is not going to hurt one thing to go get 3 buckets full of soil and add one to each 6x6 bed. Its yours, go for it!
I would not dig a hole to get the bucketful, but take a shovel full here and there.
Look in your yellow pages for concrete, sand and gravel. The companies that deal in these products often have good soil available. They may bring you a dump truck full for a reasonable price, or let you fill a bucket for almost nil.

[redneck647]

Thanks. Ive been getting some work done on it.
I have the one bed fixed up some with 3 5gal buckets worth of compost. The other 2 beds I'll try to mix a little forest dirt into and work on them more next year.