Weeding problem

[imafan26]

Big R is a brand of soil conditoner. It is made mostly from waste from redwood sawmills. It has a very high C:N ratio and is acidic. I use it for mulch in my garden. It dries out quickly. Two of my three gardens are alkaline, so I don't mind the acidity. and the high carbon is not an issue for my plots they have good levels of nitrogen based on the size of my plants. I have clay soils so I don't want it to stay wet a long time and it helps to break up clay soil.

I use it as top dressing for my lawn. It is coarser than top dressing so it can mold the lawn so it needs to be put on thin and evenly. I top dress, aerate and should fertilize twice a year. I have been delinquent in this since the weather has been so dry, I don't want to feed the lawn when I can't give it enough water.

I have backed off of using it and am using more compost instead.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Big-R-3-cu-f ... /100238885

[Taiji]

My usual vocalized non word of disappointment typed out of choice is ugh-orama for emphasis. I was thinking how much like Charlie Brown I am, year after year, coming back for more of this gardening thing. New things happen every year, some new insect, new disease; you think you've got something handled then, what's this all about? This never happened before!
I would think you could find quite a bit of baled hay for mulching fairly cheap in SE Michigan, with all the farming there.

[applestar]

...year after year, coming back for more of this gardening thing. New things happen every year, some new insect, new disease...

Gardening is a process, I say. You are describing EXACTLY what gardening is -- it's a constant learning experience from successes and failures, and accumulated applied knowledge.

Don't be discouraged -- as time goes on, and you build up your expertise, the feeling will be more like "I know what THIS is!"

The beauty of a gardening forum like ours is that now you can ask and get the benefit of many gardeners' experiences and expertise.... All at your fingertips via Internet. And most of us love to share what we know Moreover, because there are many regionally and climatically specific differences, you can compare with your own and find out what is likely to work best.

[applestar]

@imafan, my thanks for describing and the link for Big R -- I was thinking I've never seen that before and I would remember if I had (what a packaging design! )

Curious, I checked for store availability and sure enough they don't carry that around here. It must be a west coast product -- even if they DO ship it all the way to Hawaii (less expensive by boat in containers, than trucking or even freight train, I imagine).

[jal_ut]

Weeds? They come from weed seed! The key to less weeds is never let the weeds go to seed in your garden. Of course there will always be weeds, the seed blows in on the wind. How to handle weeds? Hoe, hoe hoe. Clip the small weeds off just below the crown when they are small. Larger weeds can be hand pulled. If you have a larger garden, and you plant the rows about 30 inches apart, you can run a tiller or wheel hoe between the rows.

[Taiji]

One good thing for me living here in this very arid area is that I hardly ever have any weeds. Soil is sandy, native prairie grass is the main "weed". I once planted a row of Arizona cypress trees (a native tree around here) then tilled about 3 feet on either side of the row so the weeds wouldn't compete with the trees. The area I tilled literally stayed that way for years, it takes things around here a long time to regenerate.

The downside is, that with little vegetation available I find the pests, grasshoppers etc., will eat stuff they normally wouldn't in their desperation. I'm finding I have to cover everything I plant with fine screen for a long time til they outgrow the pests. Planted 2 rhubarb crowns a few weeks ago, and covered one with screen, the other left in the open. Sure enough, the one left open was eaten as soon as the leaves sprouted. Who would think rhubarb leaves would be eaten?!

Sorry, got off topic!

[shadylane]

k so drying grass how long does that take? I can have a good deal of it this weekend to use in the garden as mulch. I have a corner lot and the front lawn needs mowing. Also to mirror a bit from the compost thread it looks like I'll be using the walkways for composting so they will be capped with scrap lumber hopefully that I can get from around town. I can start putting the mulch down in the 3rd of the garden that is mostly weeded and move along so I'm not failing to keep up by weed popping up where I already been as fast as I'm removing the next part. Should I use some of the fertilizers I have: Osmocote smart-release (19% nitrogen, 6% phosphate, 12% potash) and Vigoro tomato & vegetable plus calcium (12% nitrogen, 10% phosphate, 5% potash, 3% calcium, 3% magnesium, 5% sulfur, 0.02% boron, 0.05% copper, 1% iron, 0.05% manganese, 0.0005% molybdenum, 0.05% zinc) along with the compost? I only ask since the idea the idea soil fertility might be a cause to the weed issue.
Jason L
Full Member

Posts: 44
Joined: Jun 28 '14
Location: South East Michigan




Depending...the top 12" should be ready in a few days, the underneath may still be wet if using grass clippings. Turning or spreading it out is quicker. Know your weed type and see the fertile area conditions they like to grow. Such as Alkaline soil or limestone. Use the weeds as indicators they will tell you what your soil needs or lacks. Such as clovers or chufa grass and even violets can tell your soil type and needs. Is your garden plants looking yellowish? If so add a little blood meal or bone meal. Mix it in the top soil a bit at least 5-8" away from your plants. Their roots will find it and too the weeds may begin to help your plants absorb the fertilizer, just until you have enough mulch to rid your weed problem.

[Jason L]

I was talking to my dad yesterday about garden progress, he has a small tomato only garden, and he reminded me that we both have our lawns chemically treated so it is a bad idea to use it in the garden. My uncle, now no longer with us, was an avid gardener. My dad was telling me he got grass clippings from others but refused to take any that were from chemically treated lawns. That's going to be kind of hard around here because I can't say I have seen a house that wasn't having their lawns chemically treated. Not sure what to do given this circumstance.

The good news is I'm making progress. About 50% of the garden is relatively weed free. That is to say there is a good 4-6 inches in between weeds in that 50%. I have about 25% in the middle still to deal with. Today is relatively cool and cloudy so it has allowed me to work in longer sessions. Using a better home and garden weed identification guide (careful how you word your google search lol I got search results about marijuana with my first search); here is what I came up with:

Oxalis: not 100% sure no flowers or buds to go by in my garden.
Crab grass: likely is some of the grass like weed I'm seeing in my garden.
Nutsedge : most definitely, I am pulling quite a bit of it today.
Lamb's Quarter: maybe but we also have a lot of maple trees around so might be their helicopter seeds sprouting.
Dayflower: only pulled very few of these. At least with the blue flowers. If there is more that those I can't tell.
Purselane: most definitely and about 20% as much as the grass types in quantity.
Canada Thistle: Only had very few of these.

If there is anything else other than the clover looking one that is quite low in quantity compared to everything else that I can't seem to identify. If I find more I'll try and identify it or get a picture to post here. But it's mainly those grass types. There was one or two others that looked similar to nutsedge. It might be possible there is a bit of one or two of those grass types not sure if they look the same when they are small. And the purselane as mentioned above. Everything else is very little one or two here and there maybe 5% or so combined of all the weeds I see and have already pulled.

[rainbowgardener]

Purslane is one of my favorite edible weeds. Unlike some of what is called "edible," it is actually quite tasty. I have a purslane potato salad recipe I really like. So I let mine grow until I have enough to use.

[Jason L]

Could I use corn husks from corn that isn't organic as mulch?

[imafan26]

Actually 80 to 90 percent of all consumables are either flown or shipped in. It is more expensive than trucking. That is because the nearest mainland port is at least 2500 miles away so it uses a lot of fuel and those prices have gone up sharply. Container ships arrived full of goods but since Hawaii does not have enough goods to fill the containers for the return trip the shipping coming in costs twice as much as going out to make up for all the empty containers returning to the mainland. When you buy something online look closely, at the small print. Free shipping is usually only offered to the 48 contiguous states Hawaii, Alaska, Guam, and Puerto Rico are excluded. Shipping can easily cost more than the product. The outer Island costs are even higher. Most of the larger planes can land on Big Island and Maui now so their air freight costs are better but anything that comes in by Matson container ships need to be shipped inter island by Young Brothers at an additional cost.

Hawaii does not have enough affordable agricultural land to be self sustaining. All of the watercress grown on Oahu is for local consumption and the demand still exceeds the supply. Local produce also has a harder time competing with Mainland, Mexican and South American produce because the cost of labor, land, seeds, fertilizer, fuel, and government regulations and taxes cost so much more here. People are also not jumping into farming because it is hard work for low wages in a state with the highest cost of living.

On a side note, seed corn is now the number one agricultural product produced in Hawaii. And most of the corn grown in the US has had some part of it grown in Hawaii.

[applestar]

Interesting @imafan. It's got to get frustrating to see the lower prices that is not available to you in Hawaii.

...non-organic corn husks... It's a question of just how organic you want to be I guess. I was thinking maybe I will get some bales of straw and hay to mulch with, and called the large farmer's market I was going to be *near* while shopping, thinking they might sell some. When I said I want to make sure no herbicides or pesticides were used, the girl who answered the phone said "Oh, they probably were." I wasn't expecting that for some reason and I stammered -- "uh, what?" and she said that they are not organic. Then I called a feed store where I was able to buy organic hay before, and they didn't have any either and she said she couldn't think of anyone who sold organic hay -- I guess nobody around here bothers with feeding their horses organically.

That said, we do buy corn from the local farm stand in the summer -- they are harvested fresh in the morning, cheap and plentiful and taste great. (The corn from my tiny patches of corn are just "treats" and barely satisfies the volume DH and kids consume -- 3-4 cobs of corn at a time ...though my kids and even DH have said that my corn tastes "even better" ) The high priced fresh organic corn from Whole Foods are typically not like the freshly harvested farm stand corn -- I suspect they are mostly the high sugar enhanced long keeping hybrids even if they are grown organically. I buy frozen organic corn for the kids when they are craving corn during the off season.

So, the point is I do add all that not organic corn husk and cobs to the compost pile. They are like jet fuel in there and heats up the pile quickly when added.

I keep some areas of my garden kind of wild with lawn grass that have been allowed to grow -- did you know they can grow to be knee high and even waist high when going to seed? I really think there is some kind of scam going on here -- fast growing grass that naturally grows that tall would HAVE to be mowed often and would need enormous amounts of fertilizer and water. I have also had different kinds of grass grow from previously used hay and straw -- some are no doubt rye or oat or wheat, others include orchard grass, sweet vernal grass, and some others that are totally weed (I'm trying to ID them all as I can... There's one I can't think of the name right now... Starts with a "D"...) Anyway, I cut these with a hand sickle to use as mulch. (I'm preferentially keeping Sweet Vernal Grass and letting them go to seed -- it's getting to the point that when I cut grass for mulch, I often stop and think "Mmmm! That smells wonderful!"

I've been slowly replacing the lawn grass with buffalo grass. I started before there was an improved, shorter cultivar that became available, so mine seem to grow to about 8" max... Just a tad taller than what we really want which is 6". I'm doing this without complete removal and seeding -- I rake the seeds into drought killed areas of the lawn so they compete with and hopefully outcompete weed and crabgrass seeds. Since buffalo grass is naturally hardy, tougher and better adapted than lawn grass in drought, they do seem to have successfully replaced the lawn grass in much of the areas where the lawn was struggling..... (...... Dawning on me that I am babbling and going off topic ...what can I say it's not even 4AM and I woke up and can't go back to sleep.... )

[Jason L]

I'm not 100% into organic. I just wasn't sure if there was any concern of specific chemicals (like the bad stuff used to treat grass) that may have been used on the crops that would be found on the husks but not the corn itself. Stuff I buy from the grocery store isn't organic. But I try and avoid unhealthy things like high fructose corn syrup, TV dinners , and other things overloaded with preservative and additives.

[freedhardwoods]

If you have a larger garden, and you plant the rows about 30 inches apart, you can run a tiller or wheel hoe between the rows.

....And it looks like this when you're done. I can weed my quarter acre in a couple hours.

B.jpg (37.25 KiB) Viewed 2000 times

D.jpg (38.03 KiB) Viewed 2000 times

[rainbowgardener]

And then you have all that bare dirt and on a slope.... Do you ever mulch it? I'm sure that mulching is a lot harder when you have fields, but people do that. It seems like you would be losing a lot of precious topsoil this way, as well as losing a lot more moisture, and letting nutrients be taken out of the soil without being replenished.

Did you ever read Dirt: The Erosion of Civilizations, by David Montgomery? https://www.amazon.com/Dirt-Civilization ... vilization I heard him speak when he came to town a few years ago. Certainly gave me a whole new appreciation for the importance of those few inches of topsoil.

I try never to have bare dirt ....

[applestar]

I wondered about mulching large fields too, and this seems to be the answer. Again, on large scale, big tools make the job easier and faster:



...I can't do things this way because it's the heavy weight and power that lets them crimp and cut through the covercrop. Mine is on a no-power tool small scale made even easier to manually manage, though time consuming, by breaking up into small postage stamp beds. I'm looking for how people who are using power push/self driving tillers and ride on lawnmower size tools are handling it.

[freedhardwoods]

And then you have all that bare dirt and on a slope.... Do you ever mulch it? I'm sure that mulching is a lot harder when you have fields, but people do that. It seems like you would be losing a lot of precious topsoil this way, as well as losing a lot more moisture, and letting nutrients be taken out of the soil without being replenished.

If you are replying to my post, my ground isn't perfectly level, but I wouldn't call it a slope. We had 4" of rain after I tilled it and it didn't wash anywhere.

The only thing I mulch is my raspberries and strawberries because I can't till them.

I gain topsoil, not lose it because I add sawdust to the dirt and till it in. It really helps build up my clay soil.

Here is why I don't mulch (no-till) and why my ground doesn't wash away.

[applestar]

Interesting! So you are using this "vertical tillage" equipment?

...it does look like another POWER solution though (not for small backyard garden) but interesting to keep an eye on. It struck me that they kept saying/comparing to " 'conventional' horizontal disked field" -- that would be what we normally view as "tilled"?

[Jason L]

My soil is so easy to work with right now I have been wondering about tilling with power tiller next year. The power tiller loosens it up so much that you sink into it while planting. Due to the tiller not working this year we had turned the soil with shovels and garden raked it after. We think the problem with the tiller is the gasket on the carburetor. But the tiller is like 20ish years old. I figure we can find some gasket for it. I never looked into if there are non-powered tilling stuff.

[freedhardwoods]

I do use a subsoiler/ripper some years and Ground Hog Radishes that grow deep and break up hardened subsoil. In the video, the water absorption is the main reason I like vertical tillage as compared to just tilling. Tilling soil year after year without vertical tillage will create a hard layer just below the tilling depth.

I understand that mulching works on small gardens and large fields shown in the video you posted, but for me it's too labor intensive to do in a large garden. I (and jal_ut) are just showing an alternative to mulching.

[MichaelC]

OK second time I paused to wonder what Big R is. Google didn't help and curiosity is driving me batty

Chain store in the midwest.

https://www.bigr.com/lawngarden.htm

[jal_ut]

Some of the grasses have tough long lived roots and it is hard to get rid of them. You can pull the green, but more will crop up tomorrow. To get it you have to keep the green off, or when no plants are on the plot, dig deep with a digging fork and actually remove the roots and toss them in the garbage can. You can get these grasses removed if you let the plot go fallow and till it every time you see green. Good luck!

Broad leaved weeds that come up from seed can be easily removed with a hoe when small. I like a broad bladed butcher knife for weeding close around plants. If weeds get large enough to get hold of them, pulling works. In any case we need to keep after them. They just seem to come and come again.

[Jason L]

I have the weed problem mostly under control now. About half the garden is covered with corn husks. About half of the other half I pulled weeds and they have not come back in force like how they were when I posted this thread. I found a small hand garden tool, it's 3 prong like on one side and hoe like on the other side. It helped get the tougher weeds. I have already arranged with my parents to keep all their fall leaves for use as mulch for next year. And I'll be keeping all of our leaves as well. I have a blower vac and figure using the vac to grind them up and store them in lawn and garden paper bags over the winter will work.

[rainbowgardener]

That will be terrific. By the time you have chopped your leaves and then stored them, by spring they will be partly broken down and will be a lovely fine textured mulch.

[jal_ut]

Hoe, hoe, hoe.

Weeds are a fact of life. The seed comes on the wind, and in my case in my irrigation water. Also, some always seem to go to seed in the garden. The ones with the persistent perennial type roots are the worst problem. If you have this type you have to dig up the roots and toss them in the garbage can or put them where they will dry and die. If you pull them and toss them on the garden they will roll over and grow.

Yes, mulches are a help with weed suppression. The newsprint then mulch is quite effective. Have fun!

[lexusnexus]

Jason, just how big is your garden? Mulch is a really good idea. But, and there's always a but, mulch may actually have weed seed in it. Even in my 15'X25' garden I'm never caught up with the weeds. There is an acceptable level of weeds for me, but you have to decide what that is for you.

[jal_ut]

Hmmmm, how large is your garden? Do you have a lawn? Do you mow the grass? Do you take the newspaper?

If you answered yes to these three questions, just take the newspaper and put it on the ground around your plants (about 4 to 5 layers of paper) and cover it with grass clippings.

[jal_ut]

Weeds are a fact of life. The seed comes in on the wind, in my case in my irrigation water, and not to mention those that go to seed right in the garden. Best thing I have found is to make your rows such that you can run a wheel hoe between rows, that gets most of the weeds. If you have a Tiller, you can run that between the rows for weeding if you lay it out so it will work. Now its hoe, hoe, hoe, and get down on your hands and knees and use a butcher knife or just pull them. Well, try as I might there is always weeds in my garden, but know what? I still get a harvest. Granted your crops will do better if you can keep the weeds from being too much competition.

[Jason L]

My garden is about 8 to 10 feet by 24 feet. The part where I put corn husks down weeds were nearly done away with. They only appear to have come back in spots where there was bare ground around the plants or where the husks got moved from walking around and harvesting. Between the weeds and strange weather we have had around here I have had poor results with my garden except for 4 of my tomato plants and my green beans. But even those 4 tomato plants I'm not going to have the size harvest I expected to have. I think I actually will have lost money on it this year

[Peter1142]

The idea that excessive weeds are an indication of poor soil is nonsense. I have extremely rich soil that grows large and healthy plants with little fertilization, including heavy feeders like tomatoes and pumpkins, and the weeds could not be more vigorous. It is true that certain weeds tend to dominate in certain poor soils, but that does not equate to "weeds = poor soil".

Weeding is a fact of life, yes. It is a lot of work. Mulching -- before the weeds set significant roots -- will help a lot. But it won't completely prevent weeds, and some weeds like crabgrass will grow right in certain mulches. Also when weeding they need to be pulled out by the roots, otherwise most will come right back sometimes seemingly even more vigorous than before. There is no substitute for getting down on your knees.

[Taiji]

I wonder if the vertical tillage in the video is similar to or the same as what they used to tout in the old Organic Gardening magazine of the 60's and 70's and called it chisel plowing? They always wanted farmers to start trying chisel plowing because it didn't compact the earth underneath like the traditional plow.

I would think on a smaller scale such as in the smaller home garden, double digging would yield the same result, say, using a long tined spading fork? Lotsa work though! And don't ever step on the beds!
I don't know if there is such a thing as an extra long tined spading fork or not.

[imafan26]

No till is different from double digging. Double digging or any tillage will kill microorganisms by turning the soil and exposing the microbes to light and disturbing the microenvironment. I am thinking verticle plowing would be more like using a vertical lawnmower or aerating the soil with a garden fork. You want to add air and fluff but you want to do it with the minimal disturbance to the critters living in the soil. Although a few earthworms may still be harmed in the process.

I have a mini cultivator and I stopped using it years ago. Mainly because it required maintenance every 20 hours and it was a problem to start if the gas was old (before I learned about stabil). It pureed the top 4 to 6 inches of soil but since you have to walk behind those things, I ended up compacting the soil as I walked behind. Below the tiller's reach the soil was still hard. So, I switched to adding amendments with a shovel instead. I still compact the soil when I am walking on it, but it is worked a lot deeper.

I tried no till with my corn this year and added the amendments on top. But I think it works better if there isn't a lot of establihed weeds around. My soil dried out faster than usual (it didn't help that we did not get that much rain except from the passsing storms. Many of the corn seeds failed to germinate and what survived was drought stressed so they were very short and I did not have enough corn to get the ears to fill well. I actually saw fewer creatures in the soil because it was so dry. It was my first time and maybe I didn't do it properly. I might have to do more research on that and try it again.

[Taiji]

Yes, I see what you're saying about organism destruction. I'm trying to get to the point where I can just walk along the bed twisting my spading fork back and forth as bed preparation. Some of my beds are getting close to that stage as they get built up with amendments. For now, I'm still turning the top 6 or 8 inches especially when turning under a green manure crop, then, I force the fork down as far as possible and loosen up what's down there!

Again, I don't have too much trouble with weeds out here, I guess it's the arid environment. But I still mulch a lot to hold moisture and feed the soil. Was curious if you mulched your corn to help with holding the moisture, and if you were able to water your corn when it needed it?

Without supplemental watering often around here I couldn't grow a thing!

[Jason L]

I put down plastic garden edging around the outer edge of the garden. But on the side where the lawn is and the garden gate the grass is managing to go over the top of it and continue growing into the garden. Any tips for preventing that from happening?

[jal_ut]

What is a weed? I say it is a plant out of place. IOW a plant growing where I don't want it.

Weeds come from seeds, or from the roots of perennial plants in the soil. In the case of roots, you must dig them up and remove them or get them on top of the ground where the sun will dry them and kill them. This is certainly the case with many of the perennial grasses. It may take two or more diggins to get them.

About seeds, they come from plants that have matured on your lot, or they come on the wind, or in my case they also come in my irrigation water.

Lets face it, there will always be weeds. If you are going to garden, part of the project is to eliminate the weeds. Its Hoe, Hoe, Hoe. You can hoe them out, pull them, or run the tiller between rows. We will never get them all but we must reduce their numbers such that our favored plants can make it. Have fun!

[imafan26]

I did not mulch the corn because I had planted the corn around the previous beets and lettuce. It may have helped, but I need to find a better mulch. The commercial mulch dries out and is hard to wet and I have to water the mulch before I water the soil. The tree trimmings have more weeds in them. I still needed to water more, it just didn't rain as much as usual.

[ElizabethB]

Too many pages to read through each post. I hope I am not repeating information. I am a BIG fan of pine straw/needle mulch. Cut or pull as many of the weeds as possible then apply a 12" loosely packed layer of pine straw. It will compact to about a 3" layer of densely twined needles. The best for weed prevention and water retention. Exactly what you want from mulch.

Good luck

[Jason L]

Too many pages to read through each post. I hope I am not repeating information. I am a BIG fan of pine straw/needle mulch. Cut or pull as many of the weeds as possible then apply a 12" loosely packed layer of pine straw. It will compact to about a 3" layer of densely twined needles. The best for weed prevention and water retention. Exactly what you want from mulch.

Good luck

For myself the original post was resolved to a plan for next year. And a mostly too late for this year result. I guess I should have considered a potential problem before hand rather than looking for advice after the fact. I was shocked at how quickly I went from no weeds to things out of control. It was literally like over night. I had to wait for the days of rain to end and by then it was an uphill battle never won. I managed to get a third of the garden under control but the weeds one. I lost 9 of my 12 pepper plants and the harvest from the remaining was far from even breaking even vs cost to buy from market. I lost 5 of my 8 tomato plants. And only one of the remaining 3 thrived, the rest are a third of the size. I only got 5 or less pounds of cherry and roma tomatoes combined. I have a very small amount left yet to ripen left on them. With time running out for them I'm doubtful of any significant more from them. Green beans are where things turn around. I have gotten tons of those. 15 pints canned so far. About 5 pints worth eaten fresh. And I'm still getting plenty more. I expect at this rate by the end of the season about 15 more pints worth. I revived the thread with an extra question concerning a problem I noticed the day I revived the thread. The lawn has somehow learned of the garden edging as is now consistently growing itself over the top of it and taking up root on the garden side. I keep tearing it up but then it just grows over it again. This year has been very frustrating for me. It almost made me want to give up garden if it weren't for the green beans results and the hope I have for next year with the advice from the thread.

[imafan26]

I have that problem too. I have to edge when I mow. Grass always grows over. I had fewer problem with the emerald, than with the St Augustine. St Augustine completely took over a bed so I had to just move the ground cover. I edge and leave a couple of inches bare space between the edge and the border. It buys me a little more time if the grass is not all the way up to the edging. I put plain red bricks flat in the space. so if the grass does invade it, it is just on top. When I used a lawn mower it was necessary to have the edge because of the wheel. Now with the weed whacker, it is mainly so I don't whack as many pots.

[Jason L]

I have that problem too. I have to edge when I mow. Grass always grows over. I had fewer problem with the emerald, than with the St Augustine. St Augustine completely took over a bed so I had to just move the ground cover. I edge and leave a couple of inches bare space between the edge and the border. It buys me a little more time if the grass is not all the way up to the edging. I put plain red bricks flat in the space. so if the grass does invade it, it is just on top. When I used a lawn mower it was necessary to have the edge because of the wheel. Now with the weed whacker, it is mainly so I don't whack as many pots.

I had never thought about doing that. I'm sure I can get some patio blocks or something to be a buffer rather than the plastic edging. And it would look nice too. Now I just need a day off with nice weather to finish cleaning things up in the area where stuff has finished for the season. I have been using a hole digging shovel to dig up the top 12 inches of soil and breaking the dirt loose from the grass and weeds that are still out of control on that half of the garden. I'm hoping by doing that I'm managing to get rid of all the roots too so that darn grass doesn't come back. Two of our front yard trees have to be cut down by the city (they are the cities trees) because they are a property damage danger. One is being eaten by termites or something (saw dust galore from the burrowing) and the other is leaning heavy into the road and has top support roots exposed too much and they think it is a falling danger. This means I may have half the leaves I was expecting to have if they cut them down prior to them loosing all their leaves. Our trees tend to wait until late november to drop their leaves.