Best "Prepper" Vegetables to grow?

[digitS']

True Potato Seeds
Only about 30 months since spring of 2015 but, yet again, I had winter squash on the south side of the corn and rattlesnake beans in one north corner of the garden this season.

It's been nearly 50 years since I built a log cabin and planted a large garden, nearby. Nearly 50 years since I left that lonely venue. Nearly 50 years of almost continuous gardening since but I would like to have gardening and food close at hand, these days. I'm not sure how long or with what enthusiasm I would live life without the trappings of civilization and would much prefer to have my marginal, agricultural existence with a human community than otherwise.

Don't send me back to my ancestors' time but constant attention was probably not given The 3 Sisters Gardens. Subsistence farmers often live at some distance from their fields and gardens. It usually has to do with village livestock, their adequate fencing, and suitable ground for agriculture.

I found that beans for drying, winter squash and flour corn were the best 3 sisters for my garden. However, we don't eat all that much dry beans and, while exceptionally tasty, cornbread from our own flour corn was a bit of a bother . Leaving that corner of the garden worked out well. The squash did well at suppressing the weeds. Poles for the pole beans worked better than having them weigh down the corn and irrigation is really necessary. It wasn't as tho the sisters could be left entirely on their own, here - at least.

More hands-on gardening is more fun for me. I think that if I was just trying to "happen on" a food supply, it would make more sense locally if that was of a hunting enterprise. However, to imagine that wildlife could sustain much human life is almost as nonsensical as thinking human life can be sustained without regard to nature.

Steve

[ID jit]

Thanks for the link.

[applestar]

We have one too, though it's still a bit experimental for those of us who tried it.
Subject: TPS True Potato Seeds

I think Joseph posted in it and around here generally for a bit -- I say familiarly though I don't know him... (but we all know his Dad ). He sounds like he is doing amazing work and advances in some of the stuff I merely dabble and generally fail or make slow progress. (Sadly my potato growing successes have been one step forward, two steps back -- partly I think I don't give them enough attention, partly they also get the tomato pests and diseases and sometimes with worse symptoms... and I grow way too many tomatoes ).

So I'm glad digitS posted his link.

[applestar]

Btw, my "take" on tomatoes in this discussion? If you narrow down your tomato varieties to only the best performing OP and Heirloom varieties -- don't just grow Heirlooms, they are inbred -- then all your volunteers will start being reasonably edible to superb tasting, and good performers, even those that have been accidentally bee-crossed.

If you insist on growing hybrids and eating store-bought hybrids and putting the scraps and viable seeds in the compost, etc. then you will end up with undesirable genetic throwback and other characteristics that people talk about, when discussing saved seeds from hybrids. ...Just MHO.

[thanrose]

True Potato Seeds

I think that if I was just trying to "happen on" a food supply, it would make more sense locally if that was of a hunting enterprise. However, to imagine that wildlife could sustain much human life is almost as nonsensical as thinking human life can be sustained without regard to nature.

Steve

Yeah, for sure. Maybe a quarter century ago, I was on a mailing list for people interested in homesteading or related things. When people read through the list and discovered they were mowing down stuff in their yards that could have been eaten, I offered a few suggestions. A couple of the folks were fascinated and wanted to live off the land, so to speak. Another few just wanted to decrease their supermarket expenditures. None of them were prepared to really learn the local flora edibility and utility. Some of them who tried some of the spring wild greens were surprised that dandelions were bitter or that leeches inhabited the same water as duck potatoes. Or that coquina clams could not be eaten on the half-shell.

While I have had entirely foraged meals as a fun sort of experiment, it's hard to dissuade someone who thinks they can give up shopping at Whole Foods. Once in a while you can gather enough of an item or two for a family to eat, much as you might land a stringer of panfish, but generally foraging does not provide your meals for the month. Dumpster Diving could, but not foraging unless you are ready to eat nothing but salmon and berries while avoiding the bears coming out of hibernation.

So if you stack the deck with scattered fruit and nut trees, with shrubs and vines and grasses, you can supplement your food stores. Just don't watch survival reality TV as your source on wild food gathering. Even some of the experts will mess up and completely overlook a few of the resources around them.

Ideally, we would be looking for a spring fed water source, varied terrain with forest and meadow of at least 10 acres, but ten times that would be better. With interspersed permaculture food plants somewhat disguised by the surrounding woods and a few scattered intentional plantings of sweet potatoes, brassicas, cucurbits, and beans and more, you might have enough to feed a family. If no one stumbles across it or sets fire to it.

There are plenty of folk who do the hunter-gatherer thing without realizing it. They pick ramps and morels and fiddleheads, then blueberries and cherries, then apples and crabapples, in wild places they've discovered while out hunting or fishing. While I haven't done it lately, I know roughly where a number of wild edible things and even some old crops regrowing in fallow fields can be found. I don't think we have one of those urban forager lists for my area, the ones where people put in the location of an abundant yield of cherries over an alley or the unkempt grape arbor at an abandoned church. I may be too sour on people, but I think if I were to publicly list some of these places others would screw it up. Like I know where someone has planted papayas in a public park. Out of the way, of course, but subject to park officials ripping them out.

[imafan26]

I think I have to agree with the eat the weeds philosophy. I think as a 'prepper' you might want to try to save seeds of as many plants as you can.

I think in a post apocalyptic world while it would be nice to have tomatoes, the less pampered and prolific things would provide a better food source.
Sweet potatoes and beans. For me it would be the tropical spinach NZ hot weather spinach, amaranth, swamp cabbage would be fast growing, high yielding. Some would need a lot of water and some can handle heat. Herbs would probably make it, most are not demanding of soil or water. While I love mushrooms for their flavor, they don't have a lot of nutrition, but it might be on my list for foraging as would grasses. I remember seeing a picture of a woman in Korea eating grass during the wartime, many people survived on grass, weeds and whatever they could find. They could not grow anything during the war and had to forage.

[rainbowgardener]

Thanks for all the great ideas. I'm going to read through all of this and take some notes, see how I might up my game a little.

But I have to say, I am interested in increasing my general self-sufficiency in terms of skills and ability to feed ourselves. But if it is going to get really bad with marauding gangs and all that, I'm not a fighter. I do think the best resource we can have for what ever kind of hard times might be coming is tight communities, where people have strong bonds and lots of sharing and mutual support. No amount of money will get you through (remember post WWI Germany with hyper-inflation and people bringing a wheelbarrow of cash to buy bread?). No amount of stored stuff is any guarantee (floods, mold, those marauding gangs, etc etc). Only your ties to other decent human beings...

[ID jit]

Some more food for thought, even if it is a little off topic:

How long would it take you to pass the "Boots and Pockets Test" with fire?

Take off your boots and socks, empty your pockets, go outside and start a fire.
("Empty you pockets" = No matches, lighters, magnesium, fire strikers..., no knife.... I.e. in a pair of jeans and a tee shirt.)

After that, try to generate 1 quart of clean, safe drinking water under the same conditions.

[imafan26]

Preppers hoard but think if they hoard enough, they will be living the life of Riley after an apocalypse. I think that is where they are wrong. The survivors will need skills and they will have to work hard to survive. Usually what happens to civilizations when they start to collapse is that they start warring with nearby communities trying to take what they have and having to defend their own. Cooperation is usually not on the menu, but really is what will be needed for all to survive. "No man is an island unto himself" is quite true. In the end we would all need to work together to rebuild. Gardens don't grow if there is one farmer and a lot of raiders. Foraging will probably be what most people will have to do. So instead of thinking like a farmer, you need to think more like a forager. What will grow with very little care. What weeds can you eat, where would you look for food. What seeds would you save that would have the best chance to survive and thrive in a harsh environment? We probably would want to save the seeds of the things we like to eat, but they may not be the survivors. Time to think out of the box at wild foods like wild berries, roots, and leaves.

[thanrose]

My sister is one of those who thinks she'll be able to survive in style. I was sort of arguing the point with her, saying that just because she gets along with these ten people doesn't mean she'll get along with the significant others of those ten, etc. That her idea of shared property may not be their idea, that her idea of edibility and utility and safety may also be at odds. I also told her that she would have no idea how to build a shelter or secure a perimeter or even to gut and scale a fish. She said she and her husband had already decided that they needed to get me to come with them. Not happening.

There are infinite possibilities for the type and degree of any societal collapse. And probably infinite ways for others to make the situation worse. I'd rather have just a few associates that I could trust.

Do you recall reading about that young man, Chris McCandless I think, who died in a somewhat remote area of Alaska? Went into the wilderness, ill prepared, and died a couple of months into winter. He did not have enough practical experience with foraging and survival to understand how he could improve his situation. I don't think they know for certain what caused his death, but he apparently did not get a varied enough diet, and zero fat intake. When he ate a rabbit, did he eat the fat from around the kidneys? That's about the only fat on a rabbit. Did he know how to collect the seeds from the evergreen trees around him? Peel some barks and eat the cambium? Eat whole roasted mice, guts, bones and all? Stew the bones and skin and entrails of any animal and consume the broth with the accumulated fats? His plight was so unnecessary and so sad.

But a prepper in any sort of arduous trial is going to have to do things one might not have chosen otherwise. Even if it's just eating dried beans day in and out, or learning how to process pokeweed. And that's a good survival food that others don't recognize. As a matter of fact, the dirt mounds of construction sites that are left alone for months at a time are usually full of quite edible weeds.

[rainbowgardener]

I read McCandless's story. They made a couple movies about it, but I never saw the movies. But they said he got trapped where he was by heavy snow and rising waters in the creeks and rivers. And then in the area where he was (and as noted with his level of skill and equipment, which probably wasn't much) he starved to death. Apparently he weighed 66 pounds when he died.

It is a very romantic idea - living the simple life, self-sufficient, in the wilderness, away from materialism, corruption, etc. I understand the appeal of it. But he is a good example of how the reality isn't like the romantic fantasy.

If things get bad enough, I won't make it! There was that movie (apparently also a true story) about a guy who got trapped by an avalanche with his arm pinned under a boulder and escaped by cutting his own arm off with a pocket knife. I couldn't even watch the movie, much less do something like that. I'm resigned to the fact that when it comes to survival heroics, I would just die. I'm pretty old; it's ok.

[ID jit]

There are about eleventy billion scenarios for partial or full global melt-down. No one strategy provides for them all.

Hoarding in a fortress just makes you a target and you will inevitably lose the battle of attrition.

What weeds and bugs to eat, where to find them and how to cook them.
How to avoid giardia, crypto spordia et al and company.
Gain useful knowledge and skills.
Learn how to negotiate and barter effectively.

I have to agree with a colleague of mine though.... IF H.s.s. is going to survive a full global melt down, the survivers are going to be found in the outskirts of 3rd world countries because they already know how to live on next to nothing somewhere that no one wants to be and the weak haven't been surviving for generations.

[thanrose]

... I have to agree with a colleague of mine though.... IF H.s.s. is going to survive a full global melt down, the survivers are going to be found in the outskirts of 3rd world countries because they already know how to live on next to nothing somewhere that no one wants to be and the weak haven't been surviving for generations.

Agreed. I don't anticipate surviving a global apocalyptic event, but can manage a few weeks of climactic upheaval.

Again with my sister and the marshmallow fluff: She has her daughter's inlaws farm in panhandle Florida. It's not a real farm anymore and they cumulatively have zero practical knowledge, but they are putting in some fruit trees and trying to at least have chickens. But since they are in Florida and they planted apple trees, I don't anticipate their efforts will succeed. I did tell them to not cut down the woods that separate them from the road, and how to look up permaculture techniques. A problem with being familiar in the area means others know about you and your proclivities too. Gun collector? Check. Wine collector? Check? Sliding glass doors everywhere? Check. Easy pickings? Check.

I'd rather have distant neighbors who think I'm crazy and well armed with rabid wolf-dogs as my posse. I have only achieved one third of that.

We just had power outages with the hurricane that came through. No big deal, but scary to people who haven't been through four or five. It's like you're punch drunk. You know you can do absolutely nothing more to protect yourself from the storms, so you get out your hurricane supplies and wonder if you feel like anchovies by candlelight for dinner. (By the way, Gumbo and Elizabeth, and maybe Imafan, will attest that stores sell out of Spam three days before the storms hit. Plenty of marshmallow fluff, though.) You deal with it as it comes. Broken window and rain lashing in? Shove a piece of plywood up against it and a filing cabinet or three against that. Seeing people deal with the challenges of such weather, I hold out no hope that they would cope in a month's long societal collapse.

I'm not sure that there is anyplace east of the Rockies for USians to go full on subsistence hunter gatherer farmer hermit. There are people living off the grid in state and national forests, but it's just not a feasible option for most of us.

On the other hand, an old friend of mine was a mentor to Boy Scouts among other groups here in Central Florida. He taught the advanced scouts survival foods for their solo treks across Florida. So these would have been teenage, and already skilled in camping, fire making, shelters, orienteering, etc. Some of them actually gained weight at the end of several weeks. There are other such programs in BSA, but at that time no one else had boys who gained weight... Then again, it is Florida. I doubt you could hike through parts of Nebraska and gain weight. It would have to be a wet and warm state.

[jal_ut]

Corn, beans, squash and potatoes. (The Big Four) These are the foods that provide the calories. Yes, we need calories. Fuel for the furnace. Many of the other plants that have been mentioned provide color and flavor. If you have room for some fruit trees these are nice too and can at times provide loads of good eating, however it is no guarantee. For instance this season a freak late frost killed all the fruit on my orchard. So not one fruit to be had this season. We just plant and hope.

[rainbowgardener]

Some more food for thought, even if it is a little off topic:

How long would it take you to pass the "Boots and Pockets Test" with fire?

Take off your boots and socks, empty your pockets, go outside and start a fire.
("Empty you pockets" = No matches, lighters, magnesium, fire strikers..., no knife.... I.e. in a pair of jeans and a tee shirt.)

After that, try to generate 1 quart of clean, safe drinking water under the same conditions.

I give up, how do you start a fire with nothing but the clothes on your back? I know about fire drills with sticks, but you have to sharpen one of the sticks and make a little hole in the other; hard to do with no knife. Maybe you could hit two rocks together and hope for a spark, but I think that only works with certain kinds of rocks. Other methods (battery & steel wool, magnifying glass, flint and steel, etc) all require some kind of equipment. Take away: don't be out in the wilderness without at least a pocket knife [what if you need to cut your arm off !! or at least start a fire] preferably a few other basics as well.

[thanrose]

You could start a fire with sunlight through a lens. That lens could be spectacles or even a bead of water on a leaf, as long as you can focus the beam of light on relatively volatile tinder. That's actually pretty hard to do unless you have an actual glass lens.

For starting fire by "rubbing two sticks together" as most people think of it, you do have to be selective in your types of wood, and probably should be skilled at making some cordage.

There is often some human debris around. You might find something that would work if you know several fire building techniques.

Water in the wild should follow successful fire building. It's possible to find a decent spring with a strong flow, and that water would be potable without boiling. You would need to figure out a way to hold the water, too. There are a few ways to filter the water.

Most people would die from exposure if left on their own in the wild. Or they might die of thirst or of fright.

[ID jit]

rainbowgardener
That is kind of the point of the tests... there is a boat load of them.... sort of paleolithic or neolithic proficiencies.

The answer to your question: Most places a fire drill is easiest and that will generally start with finding the right 3 rocks to make a sharp edge. In New England, it is a granite hammer stone and chisel stone and hopefully the cleanest grained baseball sized (or there abouts) white quarts you can find. After you pop off or knap a shape edge, the rest is fairly easy. Finding the stuff generally takes the longest. After you have fashioned everything, it is maybe 15 minutes.

thanrose,
Cool story about the boyscouts... (I passed but failled since I violated hunting/fishing laws).
Doesn't surprise me they gained weight. From what I understand, the pacific northwest coast and skirting the swaps in the deep south are the only two places that Hunter/gather works without a huge range and/or locally specialized super skills. I believe in New England it is +100 acres for a group of 4



--
After I run out of coffee and nicotine... all bets would be off for me. Only way I would survive is if some group of people kept me around for what I know and my skill sets.

[rainbowgardener]

Does anyone watch "Naked and Afraid"? They turn two people out in some jungle in South America or where ever, with no clothes or shoes or anything, no food or water, but they each get to bring one item with them, often a knife or machete, a fire starter, or a cooking pot. They have to survive 21 days and then make it out from their drop off point to a pick up point. They mostly lose quite a bit of weight in the process! But it is interesting to see how they manage. One thing notable is that attitude makes a big difference! Some people are whiny and negative and complaining all the time and they are often the ones that don't make it (have to be picked up early). Also know your plants!! Many of them starve because they don't succeed in hunting fish or meat and it doesn't seem to occur to them to eat the plants around them.

[ID jit]

Never watched it... actually have never owned a TV in my life, though I have and do watch it on occasion.

Hunting and fishing are a complete waste of time you don't have in survival situations, or something you do when moving from point "A" to point "B". If you are stationary for even a short time, after enough of a shelter is taken care of, water is next, then you set capture or kill traps and get on with the foraging and scavenging which is most likely your best chance of not going to sleep more hungry than you need to be.

[Gary350]

About 1 week after Doomsday hungry people will be killing each other for food. I think about doomsday too.

When I was growing up as a kid our whole family grew a garden to put food on the table. Number one things we need are high food value items like, potatoes, corn, dried beans, tomatoes, peppers, and anything else your garden has room for, cabbage, carrots, sweet potatoes, kale, etc.

Your geographical location, weather, soil, all determine what you can grow.

For now I buy fertilizer but I also make my own fertilizer. Burn any kind of wood I can get and save the ash in 5 gallons buckets. Mix 10% wood ash with 90% compose. I put the mix in 5 gallon buckets then add about 1 gallon of urine. Cow, horse, goat, pig, sheep, urine are all good even people urine as long as your not taking a lot of medications. This makes a very good high nitrogen fertilizer with lots of NPK and minerals plants need including lime. Wood ash is about 30% lime.

Plant beans in with the corn the beans provide nitrogen for the corn.

Wood ash is very good for any plant that gets BER = Blossom End Rot. Tomatoes, squash, peppers, melons. A little wood ash is good for potatoes but don't over do it potatoes can over dose and have problems.

We all need to be saving seeds after doomsday there will be no seeds.

You also need a yard ground solar water condenser using glass from sliding patio doors. This needs to be drinking water and cooking water only. Need to experiment with this in your area in your soil to see how big your solar collector needs to be to make 10 gallons of water per day for about 5 people.

When doomsday comes there will be, no gasoline, no water, no electric, no food, no medical, no sugar, no flour, no salt, there are lots of things you need to stock pile before it is too late. You need several bicycles with trailers, several hand tools, several guns, lots of ammo, and a group of friends that all want to band together to be a group to work together to protect your crops, food, housing, and each other.

I have a bicycle with a trailer that I can haul 175 lbs on. I am going to build a bicycle pickup truck with a 2 foot wide bed 4 feet long. I have a friend with a bicycle trailer built like a hay wagon he can haul 12 ft long lumber, fence posts, cement blocks, from Home Depot to his house 12 miles away. Also need lots of bicycle repair parts too, gas engines will be worthless unless you can make alcohol which is easy if you can grow corn and stock pile a lot of vinegar.

[rainbowgardener]

Wow! We've gone way beyond best herbs and veggies to grow to increase self-sufficiency, to everyone's worst apocalyptic fantasies. I liked thinking about what plants to grow. I will never, ever own a gun. I'm going to assume you want the gun for hunting animals for meat, anything else is too despicable to think of. I haven't eaten meat for over forty years, so if hard times come, I'm not going to start then. And I will share whatever I have with who ever needs it and work to build community. I'm not into stockpiling, which seems like another form of hoarding. I want to learn what I can about making/growing what I need, not try to survive off of some hoard I piled up.

Matthew 6:19-21 New International Version (NIV)

Treasures in Heaven
“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

[thanrose]

Well then, in the spirit of the original post, sweet potatoes are so easy to grow, and store relatively well. I'm 4 days away from moving, and emptied out a very old planter of my mother's initially. I've not really tended it all that well, but have put sweet potato slips in a few years ago just for free foliage. Today, with benign neglect in twenty year old unamended planter soil which was probably dug from back yard sandy soil, occasional passive enrichment, I have five sweet potatoes. Good shape, no wire worms, firm skin.

In some parts of the world, they use sweet potatoes or the similar but unrelated yams to break up hardpan or compacted soil. I'd imagine they would be pretty gnarly looking. Of course, you could set pigs to rooting for them to really turn that soil over.

[ID jit]

Potatoes, corn, beans and squash... seem to be to popular suggestions.
Other root/tuber things might work.

Planning an experiment for this spring. Have a small, grassed clearing in the woods with a small trickle of a stream that does not run dry not so far form the house. Going to try planting a few things with minimal prep work and tools. Mostly loking at ripping out the (probably edible) weeds/grasses in a 2' circle, turning the soil over and loosening it up a bit, planting and mulching with what ever find close and then pretty much ignoring them. Expectation here is for 0% productivity, but I want to find out because I have to test everything (bad bad trait to have).

Potatoes: Will probably use slips from what ever I have in the house at the time.

Corn: Not even going to try it. Too high maintenance, too noticeable and too prone to the raccoons I now that are out there. Some of the non-modern strains might be a better choice, but am not going looking for them.

Beans: Any suggestions on what type to plant?

Squash: Thinking probably some kind of blue hubbard and or accorn, 3-5 seeds in a hill on a sunny slope. Any other ideas?

Carrots: Haven't found a type that do well in the garden. Really thinking a narrow raised bed with sand mixed in to the garden soil. Thinking the soil I have is too loamy for them. So, what's your best guess on which carrots to try?

[thanrose]

Idjit, don't be concerned with what edibles you may be turning under. Yeah, you probably have something that could be eaten starting with grubs and ants and earthworms, but whenever I took people out to ID wild edible plants, I would be sure to tell them that some things are edible, but that doesn't mean palatable. And even palatable things may not be advisable in quantity or with no knowledge of preparation. I'm guessing you are sort of in Connecticut rather than Northeast Kingdom of Vermont. I think you've mentioned before, or someone here did, that you would need significant acreage just to maintain one person.

You could have hickory, beechnut, and other wonderful food source trees, but you might also have blueberries and the related family. I'd imagine you could identify the raspberries and blackberries easily enough. Would you recognize ostrich ferns? Some of the other stuff that is easy to find is not for the faint of heart or for a steady diet. So don't go Shrooming. Sure, I could tell you that you can chew spruce gum, and tap any maple for sap, or use sassafras or pine needles to make tea, but it's not worth the calories expended in a critical situation. Okay, maybe the seasonal sap gives you mostly water and some fructose.

Anyhow, whatever you might destroy in your experiment is not likely to be a serious loss. Unless it's Pirate gold. Or a Prohibition stash of 'shine or guns. Then give me a call and I'll take care of the problem for you. No charge.

For that small an area, you probably want to do pole beans of some sort. I'd find a fairly firm forking branch with a rather organic wavy shape that's maybe six feet or so in length. Push that firmly in the ground and chuck it with rocks or what have you. It's best if it has some serious texture going on to allow the beans to climb. Could be a lower spruce bough, maybe. Although spruce might be allelopathic. Haven't seen one in thirty years. Except on Christmas tree lots. The reason I like the bough as a support is it will look more like it belongs and people are less likely to investigate.

[applestar]

I was thinking about this latest turn of ideas, and thinking That -- though not taking into account other people and serious foraging by the bigger animals -- I have some edible things growing in odd corners of my property -- usually within the fenced backyard but sometimes in the front yard too... and thinking about them made me chuckle.

Ostrich Fern, check.
Asparagus -- did we mention asparagus? Just for fun, I tossed some of the asparagus berries around. I have single fronds growing here and there. Right now, more like deciding which ones to allow to grow, which ones to move, and which ones to rip out... it did take several years for the previously seed started ones to start bearing anything like harvestable size and quantity though.

Wild strawberries as well as blackberries will definitely spread out and grow on their own -- tough part is besting the wildlife to the berries. Elderberries too, though they are not for just popping in your mouth to enjoy.

Already talked about tomatoes and edible weeds....

One year, grew Malabar spinach and let it bloom and set seeds. Next three years I was inundated by volunteers. The seeds didn't survive one of the colder winters here after that.

Legumes in general seem harder to grow without certain level of protection in the initial stages. But aren't runner beans perennial in some areas?

[jal_ut]

"So, my garden is not to make a colorful salad at the dinner table, it's for when there is no other food source anywhere, and all I have to eat is what I can get from my garden, or from preserves I canned from my garden."

Yes, grow a garden. Yes, enjoy the things that grow there. Yes, preserve some for the future.

[jal_ut]

I have several fruit trees. Most years they give me a good harvest of fruit. This season however, we had a weird late frost that killed all the fruit bloom. I am not getting any fruit at all this year. We are at the mercy of the elements. Perennial plants such as rhubarb and asparagus are nice.

[rainbowgardener]

I have several fruit trees. Most years they give me a good harvest of fruit. This season however, we had a weird late frost that killed all the fruit bloom. I am not getting any fruit at all this year. We are at the mercy of the elements. Perennial plants such as rhubarb and asparagus are nice.

We had the weird late frost too, after a very mild winter. The frost killed off the peach buds, so nowhere in the SouthEast had much peaches; we didn't get any. But we did get some apples.

I am growing strawberries, rhubarb, asparagus, and artichoke for perennials as well as peaches, apples, figs, bananas, elderberries, serviceberries. Want to still get some blueberries. I refuse to grow raspberries, because the raspberry brambles were taking over my yard, where I used to live.

[ID jit]

thanrose,

I grew up in the berkshires with a huge state forest as a back yard, subsistence gardening, hunting and fishing with some random live stock rearing which greatly decreased the grocery bill. Spent a lot of summers and time in the North East Kingdom. Currently am just off the north eastern point RI. Have had a fascination of paleo and neo lithic stuff from childhood which eventually lead to me becoming and anthropologist. No longer work in the field. I have forgotten most of what I could eat out there and really only remember the things that I like to eat, and I am still snack when I do get out under the trees. Most intensive thing I have pass a "boots and pockets" test on was acorn flour.

What I am mostly curious about with my experiment is how "cultivated" plants are going to do in the natural world with little to no attention. It's sort of the next step to how to responsibly exploit a found natural resource.

[thanrose]

I'm thinking key to subsistence agriculture would be diversity: for hybrid vigor, disease resistance, productivity when conditions are right for only some crops, pollinators, and likely other benefits.

There was some interesting research a while back with relatively isolated communities and their customary diets, and how that affected some aspects of appearance and of health of the population. Groups that really existed with subsistence and nomadic hunter gatherer had good facial symmetry, strong bones, clear skin, some apparent disease resistance. Isolated groups that relied on subsistence farming but had developed an appetite for more highly processed Western diet and shunned some of their more traditional food stuff: these people showed stranger physiognomy, skin afflictions and allergies, more distorted growth patterns of teeth and bones, etc.This was noted worldwide. I recall some were in Scotland and some were in the Aussie Outback, but there were many other groups, too.

Groups like the Saami and probably Andaman islanders may have limited diets, but they traditionally find a balance of nutrition whether they primarily eat caribou or coconuts. That may mean eating bark or grubs or entrails.

So if you selectively seed five different types of beans in the woods and wilds, maybe two will make it through several years with reseeding (at a guess) and selectively plant several different native grapes, of which only some will have fruit or leaves you find palatable, and have fallen logs and growing trees that support saprophytic fungi of your choice, then you have a start toward independent subsistence.

[jal_ut]

Corn, beans Squash and potatoes, what I call the "Big Four". These are the plants that give you the calories we need. Yes, calories, fuel for the furnace! The other garden plants are nice for color and taste. Red beets are a good choice to plant as the whole plant is edible, leaves and roots. Onions, radish, turnip, lettuce, cabbage, beans, all good choices.

[jeff84]

Corn, beans Squash and potatoes, what I call the "Big Four". These are the plants that give you the calories we need. Yes, calories, fuel for the furnace! The other garden plants are nice for color and taste. Red beets are a good choice to plant as the whole plant is edible, leaves and roots. Onions, radish, turnip, lettuce, cabbage, beans, all good choices.

carrots too.

[jal_ut]

Check this out:

https://donce.lofthouse.com/jamaica/GARDEN.pdf

[digitS']

Lost at Sea for 5 months:

Seems like the experience of 2 women with their dogs provide some insight on being prepared with food supplies. They left Hawaii for Tahiti this spring, but their engine failed May 30 during bad weather. "They continued on, hoping to reach land by sail.

"Lost and off course, they said they began issuing daily distress calls two months into their journey. But they were not close enough to other ships or land to be heard.

"A Taiwanese fishing boat finally discovered them Tuesday, 900 miles southeast of Japan and thousands of miles from Tahiti. The crew contacted the U.S. Coast Guard at Guam.

"Help arrived Wednesday morning in the form of the USS Ashland ..." they survived because "they had water purifiers and more than a year's worth of food — primarily oatmeal, pasta and rice."

I have grown oats and wheat as field crops but also in the garden. Flour corn also has been grown a few years, all, really, for ornamental purposes. I did use the corn for cornbread on a couple of occasions. And, enjoy rubbing the chaff off a small handful of wheat and having it as a chewy outdoor snack .

At one time, I entertained the idea of using some ground for growing feed for laying hens. I grew up on a farm, worked on farms for awhile, and still have access to more ground than needed for a large garden. I don't have the farm equipment these days and have no real desire to get back into farming. To make a little $ on a small flock of laying hens seemed feasible but the garden as a sole source of feed would require about a half acre increase in size. The gardens were already about 1/3 acre. I had no desire to cultivate all that ground with a rototiller and a spading fork! Delete the rototiller and I'm out there with a hoe ... Add a sharp stick for getting seed in the ground ... There I'd be - a subsistence farmer.

Steve, with lots of rice and pasta on the shelves ... potatoes in the basement ... and a full freezer in the garage

[jal_ut]

Wheat is a big storage item here. I have a plywood bin out in the garage where sacks of wheat are stored. You can crack wheat and boil it for cereal. Grind it into flour and make bread. I bake bread once a week and always grind wheat for the flour. Have fun!

[rainbowgardener]

The lost at sea story leaves me with more questions than answers.... What did the dogs eat? Surely not "oatmeal, pasta and rice." I have two dogs, both definitely smaller than the one pictured. I know what one month of their food looks like, it is a whole lot. Did the women eat their oatmeal, pasta and rice raw? If not, how did they have power to cook it? What kind of water purifier processed enough water for them to drink, cook with, and presumably wash a little? How was it powered? That is a very low protein diet also lacking in a number of vitamins. If the diet includes no vitamin C at all, the average onset of symptoms of scurvy is about four weeks. The woman pictured does not look particularly starved or malnourished or dirty....

[thanrose]

There are many more deaths at sea from people similarly stranded than there are survivors. But, given that they had a year's supply of food, I'd imagine a lot was freeze dried. I'd expect they carried a good deal of TVP which even dogs would eat. Some cast adrift sailors have lived longer than expected because of fortuitous fishing or seasonal rains, and others have used a skimming filter to collect plankton at the right time. You can dry fish and even the plankton scum on the boat decks to make a sort of jerky. The plankton's nutritional makeup would vary with what's coming to the surface at that time.

The one dog looked sort of boxer. If that's what he is, he is rather thin. Not emaciated though, and neither were the women. I would wonder about using the dogs to help fish. Some humans can catch the scent of schooling fish and I'm sure the dogs would. I would think you could grow sea vegetables and some shell fish in net bags trailing from the boat. You could put them in the hold when you are making good speed, but drop them over the side when becalmed.

I don't know what kind of water desalinizer they used. Since the motor conked out, they would still have fuel to power a still. Passive solar alone wouldn't likely provide enough water for four living beings.

[digitS']

Well, this took a turn I hadn't expected

.

I used to do some bay and lagoon fishing in saltwater. Clamming at low tide ... my brother lived on the coast for a few years after he was discharged from the navy. He worked on a crab boat. We migrated inland again after a few years .

Steve

[gumbo2176]

The lost at sea story leaves me with more questions than answers.... What did the dogs eat? Surely not "oatmeal, pasta and rice." I have two dogs, both definitely smaller than the one pictured. I know what one month of their food looks like, it is a whole lot. Did the women eat their oatmeal, pasta and rice raw? If not, how did they have power to cook it? What kind of water purifier processed enough water for them to drink, cook with, and presumably wash a little? How was it powered? That is a very low protein diet also lacking in a number of vitamins. If the diet includes no vitamin C at all, the average onset of symptoms of scurvy is about four weeks. The woman pictured does not look particularly starved or malnourished or dirty....

I'm with you on this Rainbowgardener. This story just doesn't add up and personally, I can't see how they were out there with animals and facing all the supposed hardships they say they faced and came away faring so well.

[thanrose]

Just surfing, and came across this on pinterest: https://www.piwakawakavalley.com/perenn ... w-zealand/ The lady is in New Zealand and this is her blog from April of 2017. The lists are of what she considers perennial vegetables useful for permaculture. Some of course are not going to apply to all of us, and some we may find hard to locate.

Cardoon
Chicory
Chinese Artichoke
Crosnes
Dame’s Rocket
Daylily
Elephant Garlic
Egyptian Walking Onions
Fennel
Globe Artichoke
Good King Henry
Jerusalem Artichoke
Kailaan (Chinese Broccoli/Chinese Kale)

This is just a partial list, and she has another list below that one of herbs that are perennial for her. I'm big on binomial nomenclature and I'd have to search for most of these even to find common names I'd recognize. On this short clip the only one that befuddles me is Good King Henry, but I can see how that would make it hard to know if it grows in USDA Zone 6, or is invasive in the subtropics, etc.

Anyhow, it's more ideas for potential recurrent vegetable crops.