So you would not recommend a cover crop eh. If one is not recommending a cover crop over winter, then wouldn't it be better to break sod in early spring? Any thoughts?jal_ut wrote:Definitely a large tractor and either PLOW or till it with a good rear end tiller. Then work it again after a couple of weeks. Start any time now. Shallow tilling either in the fall or spring just before planting gets any germinated weed seeds. Soil just broken up out of sod is usually very fertile the first year. Good luck.
Re: Grass to garden (1 acre plot)
-
meshmouse
- Senior Member
- Posts: 132
- Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:14 am
- Location: Long Island NY USA zone7a
Hi quinn8670 - welcome to the forum. I'm a newbie myself.
My question is 'when does gardening become farming'?
I don't know. For myself, an acre would seem like farming whereas 4 x 8 (or so) beds, would be gardening. Even an acre of 4 x 8 beds would seem like farming to me. I could be wrong, but by that definition, it seems that you are looking to farm this acre. Either way, I'm glad to hear you are under 30 years old. That's a lot of work.
I think 'imafan' offered a well rounded and eloquent suggestion as to how to go about it one step at a time (the longest journey begins with a single step). I would only question hay as a brown. My understanding is (again, could be wrong) that hay was cut green at seed (and more nutritious to livestock) where straw is allowed to dry at seed, the seed extracted and the remainder is 'straw' (less nutritious, and a brown). Again, not an expert and would like to hear other opinions. Good job 'imafan'.
I'm editing in my source for the hay/straw question. https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/vi ... 9&start=12
I will also echo 'rainbowgardener's question. I mean, even if it all goes south, bad production from one acre will be more than you (and perhaps family) could consume. Market?
To farm, I think applestar, tomc, bryce d and JosephsGarden are giving you sound advice.
My question is 'when does gardening become farming'?
I don't know. For myself, an acre would seem like farming whereas 4 x 8 (or so) beds, would be gardening. Even an acre of 4 x 8 beds would seem like farming to me. I could be wrong, but by that definition, it seems that you are looking to farm this acre. Either way, I'm glad to hear you are under 30 years old. That's a lot of work.
I think 'imafan' offered a well rounded and eloquent suggestion as to how to go about it one step at a time (the longest journey begins with a single step). I would only question hay as a brown. My understanding is (again, could be wrong) that hay was cut green at seed (and more nutritious to livestock) where straw is allowed to dry at seed, the seed extracted and the remainder is 'straw' (less nutritious, and a brown). Again, not an expert and would like to hear other opinions. Good job 'imafan'.
I'm editing in my source for the hay/straw question. https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/vi ... 9&start=12
I will also echo 'rainbowgardener's question. I mean, even if it all goes south, bad production from one acre will be more than you (and perhaps family) could consume. Market?
To farm, I think applestar, tomc, bryce d and JosephsGarden are giving you sound advice.
-
JosephsGarden
- Cool Member
- Posts: 79
- Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:51 pm
- Location: Cache Valley, Rocky Mountains
- Contact: Website
I have broken up ground in the spring and in the fall. I much prefer doing it in the fall. Because in the spring the ground can be too muddy to plow/till for months after I would like to have the early spring crops planted. If I wait long enough for the ground to dry out enough to work, then I have missed the ideal planting times for some crops. I plant the earliest spring crops into fall tilled ground without reworking the ground in the spring, other than a shallow cultivation with a hoe in the rows.
If ground is broken up in the fall, then the plant material that was turned under is well composted by spring. It also gives more opportunities to kill the perennial and annual weeds. I prefer that. The more weeds I can kill with the tractor the fewer I have to chop by hand during the growing season. In my garden we have snow cover from early November through mid-March. I am lucky to get the fall tilling done a day or two before the winter snows arrive, so cover crops haven't worked for me. I could plant rye or wheat to good effect if I spent more effort getting everything harvested more timely. Even if I planted rye the day before the snow arrived, it would sprout under the snow and grow vigorously in early spring.
If ground is broken up in the fall, then the plant material that was turned under is well composted by spring. It also gives more opportunities to kill the perennial and annual weeds. I prefer that. The more weeds I can kill with the tractor the fewer I have to chop by hand during the growing season. In my garden we have snow cover from early November through mid-March. I am lucky to get the fall tilling done a day or two before the winter snows arrive, so cover crops haven't worked for me. I could plant rye or wheat to good effect if I spent more effort getting everything harvested more timely. Even if I planted rye the day before the snow arrived, it would sprout under the snow and grow vigorously in early spring.
To meshmouse. You are right straw is better than hay for a brown. Hay has more weed seeds too. greens and browns are sometimes a mystery to me. Fresh leaves are a green, but dried leaves are brown. Even if I add fresh leaves to the compost pile, they will be dry in a couple of weeks, are they then a brown?
I actually only used a bale once, in the beginning when I was still learning about composting, I did not have enough browns. I put the sticks and twigs on the bottom for the aeration but I had 90% greens from weeds, vines and shrubs. Needless to say, my pile sank really fast, was a sloppy smelly mess and unfortunately most of my weeds are the kind that will grow if you leave a node intact, so instead of cooking, the weeds actually grew in the pile. I did get some compost eventually, but it was not good at all for killing the weeds. I even had a large branch of the bougainvillea root in the pile. I luckily hauled it out before it became permanent. After that, I learned if I was going to compost certain weeds, I had to bag them first and make sure they were brown before opening up the bags and adding it to the pile.
I still don't have enough browns, so I mostly do vermicomposting instead. I take the rest of my clean greens to the garden where I volunteer and add it to the demonstration home composting bins. None of them get hot enough so they need clean inputs for a cold composting system. The remainder of my yard waste goes into the green waste recycling can.
I finally sort of came to a generalization that nitrogen rich manures, fresh leaves and fruit are greens and carbon rich dried leaves, stems and roots are browns. It works for most things, but there are still some of those gray areas.
I actually only used a bale once, in the beginning when I was still learning about composting, I did not have enough browns. I put the sticks and twigs on the bottom for the aeration but I had 90% greens from weeds, vines and shrubs. Needless to say, my pile sank really fast, was a sloppy smelly mess and unfortunately most of my weeds are the kind that will grow if you leave a node intact, so instead of cooking, the weeds actually grew in the pile. I did get some compost eventually, but it was not good at all for killing the weeds. I even had a large branch of the bougainvillea root in the pile. I luckily hauled it out before it became permanent. After that, I learned if I was going to compost certain weeds, I had to bag them first and make sure they were brown before opening up the bags and adding it to the pile.
I still don't have enough browns, so I mostly do vermicomposting instead. I take the rest of my clean greens to the garden where I volunteer and add it to the demonstration home composting bins. None of them get hot enough so they need clean inputs for a cold composting system. The remainder of my yard waste goes into the green waste recycling can.
I finally sort of came to a generalization that nitrogen rich manures, fresh leaves and fruit are greens and carbon rich dried leaves, stems and roots are browns. It works for most things, but there are still some of those gray areas.
-
freedhardwoods
- Senior Member
- Posts: 253
- Joined: Sun May 17, 2009 9:32 pm
- Location: Southwest IN
Lots of good info here. I would listen closely to what JosephsGarden and jal_ut recommend. Both have had large gardens for several years.
I have a quarter acre garden and spend about 4 hrs per week taking care of it when I'm home on the weekend except during harvest time. This past weekend I spent 20 hours picking, shucking, washing and cutting 118 quarts of corn. That was from 1700 sq ft. An acre is 43560 sq ft.
As JosephsGarden said, when you are gardening on a large scale, you just can't use the methods that the small gardeners use unless you have a money tree to pay for the labor and materials.
Here is a thread that has lots of useful info - https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/vi ... =4&t=58966
I do have a plow, and even though I have never used it in my garden, I am not totally against using one. To turn grass into a garden I think a moldboard plow would work well the first year. I use my tiller for tillage and weed control quite extensively because it allows me to do a lot of work in a short time.
Most farmers don't even own a moldboard plow. Many years ago many started using vertical tillage to get away from the "plow pan" their fields had developed. The last farm I worked on (3000 acres) used 1 pass with a ripper, 1 pass with a field cultivator, and sowed wheat as a cover crop in the fall. In the spring, 1 pass with a field cultivator would tear out the wheat and prepare the seedbed. This video explains vertical tillage and how it improves soil and crop or vegetable yields - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwG4hqtn0VA
Another cover crop that is just recently becoming popular to help with deep tillage is Ground Hog Radish. It grows 18" to 24" deep and breaks up the plow pan. In the spring, it breaks up easily in spring tillage and rots quickly The farm I mentioned above has started using it instead of wheat.
I have a quarter acre garden and spend about 4 hrs per week taking care of it when I'm home on the weekend except during harvest time. This past weekend I spent 20 hours picking, shucking, washing and cutting 118 quarts of corn. That was from 1700 sq ft. An acre is 43560 sq ft.
As JosephsGarden said, when you are gardening on a large scale, you just can't use the methods that the small gardeners use unless you have a money tree to pay for the labor and materials.
Here is a thread that has lots of useful info - https://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/vi ... =4&t=58966
I do have a plow, and even though I have never used it in my garden, I am not totally against using one. To turn grass into a garden I think a moldboard plow would work well the first year. I use my tiller for tillage and weed control quite extensively because it allows me to do a lot of work in a short time.
Most farmers don't even own a moldboard plow. Many years ago many started using vertical tillage to get away from the "plow pan" their fields had developed. The last farm I worked on (3000 acres) used 1 pass with a ripper, 1 pass with a field cultivator, and sowed wheat as a cover crop in the fall. In the spring, 1 pass with a field cultivator would tear out the wheat and prepare the seedbed. This video explains vertical tillage and how it improves soil and crop or vegetable yields - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwG4hqtn0VA
Another cover crop that is just recently becoming popular to help with deep tillage is Ground Hog Radish. It grows 18" to 24" deep and breaks up the plow pan. In the spring, it breaks up easily in spring tillage and rots quickly The farm I mentioned above has started using it instead of wheat.
- GROUND HOG RADISH 1.jpg (37.76 KiB) Viewed 3611 times
- GROUND HOG RADISH 2.jpg (48.87 KiB) Viewed 3611 times
Last edited by freedhardwoods on Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:02 am, edited 4 times in total.
-
meshmouse
- Senior Member
- Posts: 132
- Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:14 am
- Location: Long Island NY USA zone7a
When ever I start a new bed (4 x 8 or so) from grass, I prefer to do it pretty much like JosephsGarden does, only with a spade instead of a tractor.
imafan26 - I agree with everything you said. I don't want to hijack this thread so I'll eventually meet up with you in a more appropriate one to ask my questions. And, thanks.
freedhardwoods - That's some radish. What becomes of it? How does it taste? Kinda looks like a big dikon.
imafan26 - I agree with everything you said. I don't want to hijack this thread so I'll eventually meet up with you in a more appropriate one to ask my questions. And, thanks.
freedhardwoods - That's some radish. What becomes of it? How does it taste? Kinda looks like a big dikon.
-
freedhardwoods
- Senior Member
- Posts: 253
- Joined: Sun May 17, 2009 9:32 pm
- Location: Southwest IN
-
applestar
- Mod
- Posts: 30545
- Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 7:21 pm
- Location: Zone 6, NJ (3/M)4/E ~ 10/M(11/B)
it's a completely different toolset and vocabulary.I don't research into those too closely because I don't think I'll ever work on areas of that size and scale, but it's always fascinating to me because I'm amazed and intrigued by the ingenuity that have been applied to engineering and making those tools and machines, and the history that goes with their development.
I get a catalogue from place calked Garret Wade and they had a set of toy agricultural machines in last year's Christmas catalogue -- I think a tractor and attachment machines that are probably models of some of the ones that have been mentioned.
Still, there are some equivalents like I grow daikon too. (Not the super sized ones like those, however.)
I harvest some (leaving holes in the ground) and leave others in the ground. Normal winters get cold enough that they freeze and rot away so I don't have to till them in.
-
jal_ut
- Super Green Thumb
- Posts: 7447
- Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:20 pm
- Location: Northern Utah Zone 5
My goodness an acre is a lot of area to plant garden crops.
May I suggest that to break up sod, a good mold board plow on a 60 HP tractor does a nice job.
When you say tractor, what size can you get? A tractor around 60 HP with a six foot roto-tiller does a great job too. A smaller garden tractor on that much space will work yer buns off .
How rocky is the plot? Yes a disc would likely handle the rocks better.
In any event, it takes at least two workings to kill grass. After you till or pIow, plan to wait two weeks and till it again. You can be assured that there will be many weeds germinate in that two weeks if there is enough moisture, and the second tilling will get loads of weeds too.
May I suggest that to break up sod, a good mold board plow on a 60 HP tractor does a nice job.
When you say tractor, what size can you get? A tractor around 60 HP with a six foot roto-tiller does a great job too. A smaller garden tractor on that much space will work yer buns off .
How rocky is the plot? Yes a disc would likely handle the rocks better.
In any event, it takes at least two workings to kill grass. After you till or pIow, plan to wait two weeks and till it again. You can be assured that there will be many weeds germinate in that two weeks if there is enough moisture, and the second tilling will get loads of weeds too.