Help a new gardener start his FIRST garden please!?

[ChrisA]

Hello Everyone!

I am somewhat new to this forum. I came here asking about Bonsai questions but now I'm here for an entirely new purpose.

I have come to the conclusion that its time I start "Trying" to grow my own veggies for my family.

The problem? I have NO clue where to start. What information I need. What veggies grow well in my area of the country. There is SO Much information on the internet, it's overwhelming. I wouldn't even know where to start.

So I come here to ask the following questions, in hopes of lots of assistance!

- 1 - I live in Kansas and would like to start gardening right now. What veggies produce well in this environment?

- 2 - I am trying to keep the costs somewhat minimal. What items/tools/materials will I absolutely need to get this started?

- 3 - I have 2 4x3 foot boxes in the yard that were here from the previous owner. Can I use these? If so, should I dig out all of the old soil and plant new soil?

- 3A - These boxes have chicken wire laying on top of the soil all the way across. Is this necessary or should it be removed?

- 4 - I have a local cat that roams since its owner apparently doesn't care. Any tips on keeping this cat out of my garden?

- 5 - I would like to maximize my gardens plantability. Out of the veggies named, which of them work well in close proximity to each other?


That basically outlines my current information needs. I will list the kinds of veggies that my family eats so you can let me know what, from that list, works here in Kansas.

My family enjoys the following veggies;
- Broccoli
- Baby Spinach
- Corn
- Cucumbers
- Carrots
- Potatoes
- TOMATOES <-- I pray they work out well here.
- Cabbage
- Lettuce
- Beets
- Onions (Red or Yellow)

Thanks so much for any and all information!

[imafan26]

The chicken wire was probably placed over the boxes to keep the cat out.

Some of those vegetables are cool season and some are warm. So you can rotate them at different times of the year.

Take a closer look at the soil in the boxes. They should be loose and have about 20% organic matter. It can be improved with compost and well aged manure.

If you work the boxes, cover them at night to keep the cat from using it for a toilet.

This is one of the best written home gardening guides I have seen and it was written for Kansas

http://www.ksre.ksu.edu/bookstore/pubs/s51.pdf

It is hard to keep cats out, but they are creatures of habit and they do things the same time of day. If you know when the cat visits. Put out a sprinkler on a hose bib timer and plan to run the sprinkler just before the cat visits. Cats don't like to get wet or dig in wet dirt. Install a hoop tunnel over the beds and keep it covered with lightweight netting. It will also help keep the birds and some of the bugs out. I actually built a rectangular frame over my bed around 4 ft high and covered it with tulle from the fabric store. It lasts one season (it is not uv resistant). Cats were not my problem, but I did have birds, leaf footed bugs and locusts that would eat everything in sight.

If you use the fencing on the ground spread some citrus peels on the ground every day. Cats do not like the smell especially of lemon.

There is a coleus. Coleus canina that is supposed to repel cats, but I find they don't really like anything that smells like lemons. lemon verbena, lemon grass, lemon thyme. Do not plant mints near the garden, you can keep them in pots elsewhere or on the edges of the property, cats will hang out there since they love mint.

http://gardenerplace.com/coleus-canina/

http://www.cat-world.com.au/keeping-cats-out-of-gardens

[ChrisA]

The chicken wire was probably placed over the boxes to keep the cat out.

It lays directly on the soil, as if it was meant to be a ground cover or something. Not really sure as I never asked the previous owner.

Some of those vegetables are cool season and some are warm. So you can rotate them at different times of the year.

Which are which though? I am truly 100% new to this. So I'm not sure which veggies are cool and which are warm season

Take a closer look at the soil in the boxes. They should be loose and have about 20% organic matter. It can be improved with compost and well aged manure.

How do I tell the consistency of the soil though? Since I've never done this, I'm not really sure whats considered loose vs tightly packed. Are there any visual aids that would assist in explaining.

Also, I don't have a composter and was hoping I could avoid manure. Do they sell compost? What is it made of exactly?

If you work the boxes, cover them at night to keep the cat from using it for a toilet.

What do you mean by "Work" the boxes?

[grrlgeek]

- 5 - I would like to maximize my gardens plantability. Out of the veggies named, which of them work well in close proximity to each other?

Here's a general list of friends and foes for each of the veggies you named.

- Broccoli Friends: onion, beets Foes: tomato
- Baby Spinach neutral
- Corn Friends: cucumber, potato Foes: tomato
- Cucumbers Friends: corn, beet, carrot Foes: tomato
- Carrots Friends: cucumber, tomato, onion
- Potatoes Friends: corn Foes: carrot, cucumber, onion, tomato
- TOMATOES Friends: carrots, onion Foes: potato, corn, beet, broccoli, cabbage
- Cabbage Friends: onion Foes: tomato, lettuce
- Lettuce Friends: carrots, beets Foes: cabbage
- Beets Friends: lettuce, onion, broccoli
- Onions (Red or Yellow) Friends: tomato, broccoli

I didn't list all the companions or the crops to avoid, I just cross referenced against your list. Some lists contradict themselves a little so I try to take it all with a grain of salt, and plant the most recommended combo when possible. Or not!

For a complete overload, here's a few sources for companion planting:
http://www.motherearthnews.com/organic- ... jzraw.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companion_plants
http://www.gb0063551.pwp.blueyonder.co. ... companion/
http://www.westcoastseeds.com/topicdeta ... -planting/

Good books on the subject:
Great Garden Companions: A Companion-Planting System for a Beautiful, Chemical-Free Vegetable Garden by Sally Jean Cunningham
Carrots Love Tomatoes: Secrets of Companion Planting for Successful Gardening by Louise Riotte

-----

I guess it's still cold where you live, so it's not to late to start things from seed, but you could get some starter plants from a nursery this year so you have less to worry about. Watch the ads for your local nursery or big box home improvement centers. They always have good sales at the beginning of planting season. Near me, the 2-for-1 veggie start sale begins this weekend. We've had many successful gardening years starting with plants. Once the addiction takes hold though, there are just too many varieties of veggies to try and you can't get most of them as plants. It's a natural progression, and for us anyway, it made for good "training wheels" when just starting out.

Good luck!

[Marlingardener]

As Imafan said, the chicken wire was most likely placed on the boxes' surfaces to keep the cat out, not as a ground cover. Cats dig, and it is impossible and very uncomfortable for them to try to dig through chicken wire. However, most plants will come up through the wire.
Cool season vegetables (planted as soon as the soil can be worked in spring, and again in the fall, probably August for you): Broccoli, spinach, carrots, cabbage, and onions. May I suggest that since onions and cabbage are relatively inexpensive at the grocery, and since you are somewhat confined as to space, that you not plant these two vegetables?
Depending on how many tomato plants you are planting--they work well in containers, BIG containers, at least 5 gal. containers (which are available for free or very cheap from construction sites. Just ask for them, wash them out well, put several 1/4" holes in the bottom of the buckets, and fill with a good soil/compost mix.)
As to the consistency of your soil--try picking up a handful when it is damp (not soaking wet) and if it makes a clump when squeezed, you need to add a bit of organic matter, like compost. If you squeeze it and it falls apart, you are okay.
Yes, compost is sold. Be very careful about the compost you buy--some of it has very large particles of wood, etc. in it. If you can't see what the compost looks like, don't buy it. I would also suggest that you look at our composting forum and start a small pile of your own. Believe me, it is worth the effort!
Why are you trying to avoid manure? Rabbit manure can be added fresh directly to the garden, steer and sheep manure when composted adds nutrients to the soil, and chicken manure after being well composted is a real boost to your plants. I use our compost, which has a mix of steer and chicken manure added to the kitchen and gardening scraps, as a side dressing for most of our vegetables.
Gardening isn't really difficult--people have been doing it for thousands of years. You will have failures--even gardeners who have been at it for most of their lives have failures. The important thing is to enjoy your garden, enjoy your produce, and keep at it!

[ChrisA]

Ok, so from what I've gathered so far it looks like just about everything dislikes being planted near Tomatoes. So I will plant those separately in those 5 gallon buckets. How many plants are ok in 1 bucket? Just 1, or multiples?

Why was I avoiding manure? I just have a bit of a dislike of anything fecal related. Plus I'm not really sure where I could acquire it nearby. I don't mind getting dirty with dirt, but getting dirty with poo just turns my stomach.

For my soil, is there ever a time when its best to just replace the soil in the boxes? The soil is near the top edge, so I will likely have to remove at least some of it to make it a 20% mixture with the compost. Is there any recommended composting material I can buy from places like Home Depot or Lowes?

It looks like Carrots, Baby Spinach, Cucumbers, Broccoli, Cabbage OR Lettuce, Onions and Beets will work out pretty well for me. Can those all be planted at this time of year?

Starting from seed sounds like it might be a better choice for next year. After I get this first year under my belt and understand what I'm doing.

So I would guess I'd definitely need a spade, small shovel, one of those 3 pronged fork looking things, a hoe maybe? How about fertilizing? Do I need to fertilize all this stuff too? What kind should I get?

[rainbowgardener]

One tomato plant in one five gallon bucket and it will need staking or caging or some kind of support- they are vines.

You really shouldn't have to replace the soil in your boxes, just keep nourishing it with compost, mulch, and perhaps organic fertilizer.

RE: It looks like Carrots, Baby Spinach, Cucumbers, Broccoli, Cabbage OR Lettuce, Onions and Beets will work out pretty well for me. Can those all be planted at this time of year?


All of those (EXCEPT the cucumbers) are cold weather crops that will do well now or soon. You said not trying from seed this year. I think that makes sense for the things that are ordinarily started indoors under lights like tomatoes and maybe the broccoli and cabbage. The things that are ordinarily direct seeded in to the ground, you will want to do from seed also. It is easy and some of them (especially carrots, onions, beets) don't transplant well anyway.

Carrots, spinach, lettuce, onion, beet seed can all be planted as soon as the ground can be worked- when it is unfrozen and dried out enough not to clump up. When the soil is ready, turn it with a shovel and chop it up with a hoe until it is a fine textured seed bed. Once your seed is planted just keep it moistened until it sprouts.

Cucumber doesn't get planted until the soil is well warmed up. You can buy it as plants or direct seed it.

[ChrisA]

Yea, I think what I meant was I have heard there's some process for certain plants that is required before taking them and planting them outside. I wasn't sure of the specifics, but figured I was not ready for that.

When you say Mulch, what kind of Mulch is best? Are you talking about mixing the Mulch into the soil?

Also, do I need fertilizer for this stuff? and are the tools I mentioned sufficient or will I need other stuff.

Another concern I have, how many of each of these plants can I put? Something tells me more than 1 for sure, but for the veggies going into the boxes. I think they are actually 5x3 foot now that I looked at them better. I haven't actually measured them yet.

[rainbowgardener]

Mulch is any kind of organic stuff that just sits on top of the soil and doesn't get mixed in. They sell bark mulch in big bags, but it can be grass clippings, fall leaves, shredded paper... By being there it helps keep moisture in the soil (prevent evaporation), it suppresses weeds, and eventually it breaks down and feeds the soil.


Whether or how much to fertilize depends on how rich your soil is. You could have a soil test done to know for sure what kind of soil you have and what it needs. Or you can just wing it and see what happens. If you have good soil and good compost, your compost and mulch may be enough. Or you might need to fertilize. But probably that is a little bit later in the season any way.

If you have a shovel, a hand trowel and hand snips, a fork, and a hoe that's probably enough to get started on the scale you are talking about. If you need something else later, get it then, when you know what you want and why.

If you have two 5x3' beds, you can just plant lengthwise 5 ft rows. You pretty much have room for one row of each of the things you mentioned: Carrots, Baby Spinach, Cucumbers, Broccoli, Cabbage OR Lettuce, Onions and Beets . The cucumbers don't get planted now, but when it is time, think about arranging a trellis for them to grow vertically. Otherwise they take up a lot of space. The spinach, broccoli, cabbage, lettuce will get planted now and then will be done by summer. Think about having something to plant in their place. That could be beans, or herbs like basil, or pepper plants if you can find well started peppers in the nursery.

But do pay careful attention to spacing. If you plant seeds, the seed packets will tell you the spacing. It is based on the mature size of the plants. So carrots need to be thinned to something like 4" apart. Broccoli needs to be more like 18" to 2 feet apart. So one row of carrots is a lot more carrots than one row of broccoli.

[rainbowgardener]

PS you really are a newbie. That's not an insult we all started somewhere and we have probably all killed our fair share of plants along the way. It is great that you are here asking questions, but it is a difficult way to get started from scratch. You don't know what you don't know and neither do we. And all gardening is local. What works for me in my climate, may not work for you in yours. In order to cut down on frustrations and plants killed, it would be really nice for you if you could find some experienced gardener in your area, to sort of apprentice with a little.

[applestar]

I remembered making suggestions in this thread about garden tools.
viewtopic.php?p=252916

[applestar]

- Broccoli
- Baby Spinach
- Corn
- Cucumbers
- Carrots
- Potatoes
- TOMATOES <-- I pray they work out well here.
- Cabbage
- Lettuce
- Beets
- Onions (Red or Yellow)

Quick tips

-- since you are new at this, plant each crop separately in well-marked groups or rows. Once you learn what each crop should look like, you can mix them up. At first, planting them together will help you know that they are what you planted as opposed to weeds (things that you didn't plant but grew on their own). Alternatively, plant representative "catalog bed" of well marked individuals that you can refer to.


-- you can get started plants for cabbage and broccoli now. But be aware that they are not easy to protect from pests, particularly slugs, aphids, two or three species of butterfly and moth larvae, and harlequin bugs. IMHO they should be planted in a group that can be covered with insect netting to keep out the butterflies and moths.

-- consider growing peas in cool weather (early spring and fall) and beans in hot weather (late spring to late summer) They are easy to grow by sowing seeds directly in the ground, and they add nitrogen/fertility to the soil when seeds are properly inoculated before sowing (inoculant --black powder-- is usually sold where peas and bean seeds are sold)

-- Lettuce, carrots, beets are also pretty easy to grow direct sow. Choose short/blunt carrot varieties rather than long/skinny.

-- it's easiest to grow onions from onion sets (little dime sized onions) usually available in early spring. But typically they don't grow big onions. They don't take up space and can be tucked in between plants. You can always eat them as green onions. Be sure to plant/grow garlic in the fall.

-- potatoes will occupy the bed from early spring until mid summer. Since at that point you will dig up everything in the bed, it will have to be a dedicated bed. If you have room to so this, by all means plant some potatoes. They are very easy to grow.

-- tomatoes IMHO are so easy it's better to just plan on growing tomatoes in the garden bed. They are not as easy to grow in containers since they need A LOT of water while they are fruiting and can deplete the moisture in containers. Dry/wet cycle can stress the plant and make them vulnerable to disease and pests. Variety choice will make a big difference.

-- cucumbers are also easy to grow from direct sown seeds as long as you have a sturdy trellis for the vines to climb. In your list, cucumbers will be the last to be planted after weather gets warm.

[imafan26]

if you click the link to the kansas home vegetable garden publication you will find most of your answers there. It covers everything from sighting the garden. preparing the soil, making compost, testing soil, recommended plants. Alas, peas was not recommended for Kansas. Plant spacing and even container gardens. They have a chart for each vegetable; days to harvest and plant spacing as well as a chart for when to plant.

I would not try to plant all of the vegetables on your list first off. I would pick the easiest ones first.
For my part. carrots are cheap and they are not that easy for me to grow, they need very soft soil or the roots will not grow nicely. Beans are easy, peppers aren't too bad. Tomatoes have a lot of pests and take some time managing them but otherwise they are worth the effort for the amount they produce. Lettuce in the cool season is a short crop.

Until you get more skills, buying compost is a good option. Many people like mushroom compost and the brand I like is called black gold. Gardener and bloom are also good. I don't know if they are sold there. You want to get a compost that is dark and relatively fine. Good compost should smell earthy not like mold. If you can see pieces of the parent material like redwood or bark that is a coarse mix.

I try to avoid animal by products in my garden but I worry more about blood and bone meal and a lot less about well composted manures. If you want to do synthetic fertilizer at least add the compost. Get a soil test. Call your local master gardeners and they can tell you where to take the sample to be tested. It takes awhile to get it tested so do that soon. Don't buy too much fertilizer yet, the soil test will give you recommendations on what and how much you need and if you have to adjust for pH. When you get your results the master gardeners can help you interpret what it says. BTW it is a good idea to invest in a scale. You can get one at a local restaurant supply. A spring scale is fine, it does not have to be digital.

Get some good tools. Cheap tools don't last. A good round point shovel, garden fork, hoe, bow rake and some small hand tools, shovel, weeder, and gloves unless you love blisters, and a good hat and sunscreen.

If you have more than one bed it is best to do the companion planting

Crops grown for their greens lettuce, swiss chard, spinach, kale, Asian greens need more nitrogen in the soil so they are usually ok to grow together

Crops that need more phosphorus are the root crops. beets, turnips, carrots, potatoes, sweet potatoes, and radishes. Root crops are usually fall crops

Fruiting crops tomatoes, beans, corn, squash, melons are usually summer crops and some of them take up a lot of space so if you have a small space, you have to make a choice.

Get some concrete reinforcing wire from the local hardware store. If they sell it by the foot even better. You want enough to make a 2-3 ft diameter cage about 9 ft length 5-7 ft high for each cage. They make the best tomato cages. Commercial tomato cages are ok for beans and cucumbers but are too small for most tomatoes. I use clamps to hold my wire in a circle. If I need a wide trellis, I can open up the cage and use rebar as stakes and create a fence trellis for beans.

Plant all your tall plants and trellises on the north side so they don't shade the smaller plants.

Herbs are good beginner plants, most are not fussy and can grow in smaller containers like 6 inch or gallon pots. They will also attract beneficial insects. Basil, thyme, oregano, and sage are great beginner plants and fresh herbs add to much flavor and they are relatively expensive to buy.

Foes: Do not plant dill near tomatoes. In the beginning the dill will help the tomatoes, but once it starts blooming it will cause the tomato to stunt and stop production. Keep them at least 10 ft apart.

Cabbage alkalizes the soil as it mines the calcium out of it. All of the cruciferous veggies do that, broccoli, kale, mustard. Do not plant them near plants that like acid conditions.

If you grow lettuce, plant the mesclun mixes (they come in sweet or savory so make sure you get the ones you like) or loose leaf lettuce. Iceberg lettuce, head cabbage, and celery are not beginner plants

I tend to put large plants like tomato, eggplant, peppers in containers by themselves since they take up so much space in a garden bed

In general, it is best to plant what gives you a good yield, is something you like to eat, is relatively expensive to buy, tastes better fresh, and relatively easy to grow.

Also don't dismiss fruit trees. Some trees make good container plants if you pick the right ones.

Start slow, don't rush into planting until you have amended your soil and worked it. Which means digging in and turning in 3-4 inches of compost and the fertilizer recommended into the bed. You will want to dig it down as deep as the roots will grow. 6-8 inches.

Plant only one or two different things and once that is settled then plant another bed or container once you have mastered that. You have to consider also that for every plant and container you add, you will need a few minutes more each day to water (unless you put in an automatic watering system (its not hard), weed, and be on the lookout for pests. Those chores will take up most of your time, but it is a good thing to get the family involved in helping out with some of that.

[ChrisA]

Wow guys, Thanks for all the information. I must say though, its quite overwhelming. Some of the points made seem to go back and forth.

Would I be too much of a jerk to ask for someone to map this out a bit for me. It seems that the things I want, I can plant, but when to plant them seems to be where I'm confused.

So, I know the first thing I need to do is the Soil Test. I found out today that's $10 in my area and can take up to 2 weeks. I almost wonder if digging those boxes out and just replacing all the soil is a viable option.

So, in a chronological order, how would this go? It's just a boatload of information and has me more confused than anything. I usually do better with hands on experience, but that won't work here since hands on attempts at this will likely end up with a dead garden.

So I know, first things first

1 - Soil Test (Working on getting that done)
2 - Fertilize to fix the soil
3 - ??? Then what?

Which of my listed veggies should I be planting first?

Maybe I'm just a dumby, and I'm sorry, Im just completely overwhelmed by all this information. Especially when I thought it would be much simpler than it apparently is.

[Susan W]

Wow! I am over whelmed myself.
1st. Glad you have a place to put in a few veggies
2nd. People have gardened for beyond forever. Now to narrow it down to your locale, and wants/needs.
3rd. Everyone has their pet ways of doing things. (as you can see here). Check with 5 neighbors and get 5 answers. Important however to watch and listen to neighbors and others in your area.
4th (or 1st) KISS (keep-it-simple---)

Now, move on. Is that 2 4 x 3 boxes? That will make a nice start for this season. Try several things, and you will win and lose. Tomatoes for sure, and you may want to dedicate one for that. You can get several varieties as starts when it warms, perhaps May. You could start soime cool weather veggies now, and as mentioned get starts as it is late to go from seed. Carrots from seed however, then spinach, chard and broccoli from starts. I mention chard as it will go into the heat much longer than your spinach. Broccoli is a space eater. When your broccoli and spinach go south perhaps June, could put in from seed some bush beans.

Soil? We all have our own ways. I just freshened a 4 x 4 today and put in broccoli starts, and some dill. 1st, turned it with a fork. Pulled out any weeds, heavy roots etc and they went to the trash. Then added a mix of 1 bag top soil, some cotton burr compost and black cow poo. The black cow is not much poo, more enriching. Then put in the starts.

Make a swing through the box stores and garden centers, make note of what's available, prices, and of course get all sorts of conflicting advise! This goes for bagged stuff and starts. I'm hitting them now on a regular basis, and see the starts coming in late with this late spring.

Hope this helps!